Ben Stein's 'Expelled' - April 18th!
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Anonymous - 03 Apr 2008 04:31 GMT On Wed 02 Apr 2008 <info@expelledthemovie.com> wrote:
>CALL YOUR THEATER. BUY GROUP TICKETS. >RENT A THEATER. >Here's How: > >1. Identify your local movie theater's corporate affiliation > (Regal, AMC, Cinemark, etc.) by looking in the newspaper for > their ads. > >2. Call the corporate headquarters (see the list below) and tell > them to book EXPELLED at your local theater (give them your > state and home town.) > >3. Visit http://www.expelledthemovie.com and download a free > poster. > >4. Call or stop by your local theater and ask for the manager. > Tell him that your school, church, or organization wants to > see EXPELLED. Ask about group rates and/or renting the > theater for a night. Leave a note with the EXPELLED poster. > >We will contact you: >Leave a message on our Group Sales Hotline at: 800-705-0485, >send an email to groupsales@getexpelled.com >Please forward this email to friends and contacts! >___________________________________________________________________________________ > > Company Phone Company Phone > > AMC (800) 262-4849 Malco Theatres (AK, MS, KT, MO)..(866) 528-1589 > Carmike Cinemas (706) 576-3400 Malco Theatres (Memphis).........(901) 761-3480 > Century Theatres (415) 448-8422 Mann Theatres....................(818) 380-8212 > Cinemark (800) Cinemark Mescop Theatres..................(715) 362-2800 > Classic Cinemas (630) 968-1600 MJR Theatres.....................(248) 548-8282 > x116 > Cleveland Cinemas (440) 349-3306 Muvico Theatres..................(954) 564-6550 > x1284 >Drexel Theatres Gr (614) 222-0947 Rave Motion Pictures.............(972) 692-1700 > Easter Federal (800) 394-7368 Regal Cinemas/Edwards/UA.........(800) 792-8244 > x328 > GKC Theatres (217) 528-4981 Rouman Cinemas...................(715) 362-2800 > x107 > Harkins Theatres (480) 627-7777 Santikos Theatres................(210) 496-1300 > x12 >Kerasotes Theatres (217) 788-5200 Star Theatres (608) 326-5449 >Krikorian Theatres (866) 250-2320 UltraStar Cinemas (760) 597-5777 > x14 >Lone Star Theatres (512) 353-7077 >___________________________________________________________________________________ > >'EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed' > In Theaters Nationwide, Friday April 18th > http://www.expelledthemovie.com Brian Henderson - 03 Apr 2008 06:48 GMT >> 'EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed' >> In Theaters Nationwide, Friday April 18th >> http://www.expelledthemovie.com Oh yeah, you mean that movie where Ben Stein had to lie to get interviews and has been misrepresenting everything about science in order to get his propaganda piece out? The movie that's supposedly about freedom in education, yet it censors anyone that they don't agree with? The movie that intersperses those misrepresented scientist interviews with film of Nazi atrocities?
That film? Nobody in their right mind is going to see that piece of sh.t. Ben Stein can go ram his short-pants up his a.s.
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Felix D. - 03 Apr 2008 17:58 GMT >>> 'EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed' In Theaters >>> Nationwide, Friday April 18th [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anyone that they don't agree with? The movie that intersperses those > misrepresented scientist interviews with film of Nazi atrocities? No, this is a Ben Stein movie. Al Gore and the enviro-nazis have nothing to do with it.
Beowulf Bolt - 03 Apr 2008 18:22 GMT > >>> 'EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed' In Theaters > >>> Nationwide, Friday April 18th [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > No, this is a Ben Stein movie. Al Gore and the enviro-nazis have > nothing to do with it. I don't recall Al Gore putting "film of Nazi atrocities" into _Inconvenient Truth_. Whatever your (apparently moronic) opinion on the global warming "debate", he doesn't stoop as low as Ben Stein does in _Expelled_ (as per the description tendered at (http://lots-o-thoughts.blogspot.com/2007/11/ben-steins-expelled-part-vi.html).
Biff
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone, we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..." - SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman -------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Henderson - 03 Apr 2008 18:23 GMT > No, this is a Ben Stein movie. Al Gore and the enviro-nazis have nothing to You need to read the reviews. Stein's tactic (well not really Stein's, he was just in it, he didn't make the movie) is to show a scientist, then cut to a scene from a Nazi death camp, desperately trying to link science to Nazism.
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Steve Hix - 03 Apr 2008 22:12 GMT > > No, this is a Ben Stein movie. Al Gore and the enviro-nazis have nothing > > to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > then cut to a scene from a Nazi death camp, desperately trying to link > science to Nazism. Somebody has seriously missed the point.
It's not science that nazism, it's an attitude of shutting down anything outside the main line of current understanding. It's acting as if it's just too dangerous to deal with arguments on their own merits; and it makes outlier's viewpoint look stronger than it might otherwise be.
An example of biting off one's nose, thingie.
Brian Henderson - 04 Apr 2008 21:58 GMT > Somebody has seriously missed the point. Yes, but don't worry, you might figure it out yet.
> It's not science that nazism, it's an attitude of shutting down anything > outside the main line of current understanding. It's acting as if it's > just too dangerous to deal with arguments on their own merits; and it > makes outlier's viewpoint look stronger than it might otherwise be. Sure, you could tell all the people who are having images of Nazi atrocities interspersed with their words. Besides, there isn't a single case of a scientist losing their jobs because they advocate creationism, in every case it's another cause. Gonzales and his ridiculous whine "I didn't get tenure" nonsense was just pathetic.
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John Duncan Yoyo - 11 Apr 2008 02:12 GMT >> Somebody has seriously missed the point. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >in every case it's another cause. Gonzales and his ridiculous whine "I >didn't get tenure" nonsense was just pathetic. Yep they pulled a godwin on themselves. If they needed to resort to the Nazi's they had no argument that could stand.
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Brian Henderson - 11 Apr 2008 08:25 GMT > Yep they pulled a godwin on themselves. If they needed to resort to > the Nazi's they had no argument that could stand. They don't even try to make an argument, they simply make a bunch of silly claims, flash pictures of Nazi war atrocities and think it'll convince anyone.
Of course, now they're facing a lawsuit if they don't recut their movie before it's released, so it just keeps getting better and better.
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Vorlon - 26 Apr 2008 23:09 GMT John Duncan Yoyo <john-duncan-yoyo@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Somebody has seriously missed the point. > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Yep they pulled a godwin on themselves. If they needed to resort to > the Nazi's they had no argument that could stand. Lying for Jesus? by Richard Dawkins The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.
In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.
Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.
Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.
Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.
But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)
In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.
Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.
The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.
Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.
The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.
Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.
More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.
Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.
This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.
Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure - that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).
Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.
The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.
Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.
Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?
Silverdude - 27 Apr 2008 12:17 GMT " The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him,...."
'Nuff said. Plug pulled.
>> >> Somebody has seriously missed the point. >> > [quoted text clipped - 457 lines] > liar, > as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus? Damien Valentine - 27 Apr 2008 15:24 GMT > But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good > Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly > wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its > financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the > ridicule?) Not that I distrust Professor Dawkins, but do we have Mathis's take on this whole mess? Personally, this sounds like a case of he-said-HE- said between two equal and opposite zealots. But if we're going to pay attention to either side, I suppose we're obliged to pay attention to both.
> Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether > I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design > might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself > the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give > ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I'm sorry, but something's off here. Richard Dawkins has spent his entire career fighting "intelligent design". Am I supposed to believe that he doesn't know a leading question when he hears one? Am I supposed to accept that when he hears the anti-Creationist's equivalent of "take a ride with me in my white van and I'll give you candy, little boy", he doesn't just shout "NO!" as an automatic reflex?
Buck Mulligan - 04 Apr 2008 01:01 GMT In talk.politics.guns Brian Henderson <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>> No, this is a Ben Stein movie. Al Gore and the enviro-nazis have nothing to > >You need to read the reviews. Stein's tactic (well not really Stein's, >he was just in it, he didn't make the movie) is to show a scientist, >then cut to a scene from a Nazi death camp, desperately trying to link >science to Nazism. Gee, that's SO unlike, say, leftist darling Michael Moore, isn't it? [chuckle]
Beowulf Bolt - 04 Apr 2008 17:17 GMT > In talk.politics.guns Brian Henderson > <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Gee, that's SO unlike, say, leftist darling Michael Moore, isn't it? > [chuckle] Do you approve of Michael Moore's debating methods then?
I'm pretty unabashedly socially liberal (I'm Canadian - it comes with the territory) and I regard Michael Moore as a complete tool. One of those guys that you wish wasn't on your "side". He undercuts valid arguments by distortions, careful editing, and cherry-picking the data in order to present as one-sided a case as possible. He's an embarassment to whatever topic he defends.
Are you prepared to say the same about Ben Stein and movies which compare evolutionists to Nazis?
Biff
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone, we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..." - SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman -------------------------------------------------------------------
Buck Mulligan - 05 Apr 2008 02:07 GMT In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns Brian Henderson >> <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Do you approve of Michael Moore's debating methods then? I approve of the irony of leftist freaks taking exception to Stein's tactics. It's just f.cking delicious.
Wayne Throop - 05 Apr 2008 02:28 GMT : Buck Mulligan <bkmulligan@comcast.net> : I approve of the irony of leftist freaks taking exception to Stein's : tactics. It's just f.cking delicious. It's delicious that the tactic isn't exclusive to leftists? Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess. Of course... that's what I would have expected; both leftist and rightist trying to load the dice. Not "delicious", more "yawn, SOP for ideologues". Or... demagogues? Or both demagogues and republigogues? Some other type of gogue? Eh, whatever. SOP for the hot air set of whatever persuasion.
Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Buck Mulligan - 05 Apr 2008 04:42 GMT In talk.politics.guns throopw@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>: Buck Mulligan <bkmulligan@comcast.net> >: I approve of the irony of leftist freaks taking exception to Stein's >: tactics. It's just f.cking delicious. > >It's delicious that the tactic isn't exclusive to leftists? Well, >whatever floats your boat, I guess. Hey, for a Canadian, you're not as dumb as I thought.
Wayne Throop - 05 Apr 2008 04:52 GMT : Buck Mulligan <bkmulligan@comcast.net> : Hey, for a Canadian, you're not as dumb as I thought. What aboot me makes you think I'm Canadian, eh?
Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Madalch - 06 Apr 2008 04:04 GMT > : Buck Mulligan <bkmulli...@comcast.net> > : Hey, for a Canadian, you're not as dumb as I thought. > > What aboot me makes you think I'm Canadian, eh? > > Wayne Throop thro...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw You can use words of more than three syllables.
Blue Mule - 06 Apr 2008 05:54 GMT >> : Buck Mulligan <bkmulli...@comcast.net> >> : Hey, for a Canadian, you're not as dumb as I thought. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You can use words of more than three syllables. But not in any one sentence....
Beowulf Bolt - 07 Apr 2008 17:49 GMT > In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I approve of the irony of leftist freaks taking exception to Stein's > tactics. It's just f.cking delicious. Whereas the blatant hypocrisy of wingnuts such as yourself, who froth about Moore's tactics, and yet cheer on Stein's adoption of them, is not at all surprising to me. You have no objection whatsoever to dishonest debating tactics - so long as the person using them is furthering *your* beliefs.
Toodles, Biff
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone, we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..." - SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman -------------------------------------------------------------------
Felix D. - 07 Apr 2008 21:30 GMT >> I approve of the irony of leftist freaks taking exception to Stein's >> tactics. It's just f.cking delicious. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > debating tactics - so long as the person using them is furthering *your* > beliefs. You're just pissed because you think only the left gets to "argue" like this.
PV - 07 Apr 2008 22:26 GMT >You're just pissed because you think only the left gets to "argue" like >this. Hint: We don't like it when "the left" does it either.
Stein's film will sink without trace. Thus furthering the wingnut conspiracy theory. Enjoy. *
 Signature * PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something like corkscrews.
Beowulf Bolt - 07 Apr 2008 23:03 GMT > >> I approve of the irony of leftist freaks taking exception to > >> Stein's tactics. It's just f.cking delicious. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You're just pissed because you think only the left gets to "argue" > like this. Which is why just two posts upstream, I decry the "left's" most prominent user of such tactics.
Clearly, logic isn't your forté. Which, again, is not at all surprising.
Biff
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone, we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..." - SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman -------------------------------------------------------------------
Buck Mulligan - 08 Apr 2008 01:54 GMT In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >about Moore's tactics, and yet cheer on Stein's adoption of them, is not >at all surprising to me. Cite where I cheered the tactic, sh.t for brains.
Beowulf Bolt - 08 Apr 2008 19:07 GMT > In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Cite where I cheered the tactic, sh.t for brains. Well you've never condemned it, even when pressed directly to do so. You do the math.
Biff
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone, we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..." - SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman -------------------------------------------------------------------
Buck Mulligan - 09 Apr 2008 02:06 GMT In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Well you've never condemned it, even when pressed directly to do so. > You do the math. Aw, poor Biff. Suck it up.
aggregator - 09 Apr 2008 05:40 GMT >In talk.politics.guns Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-hazred@shaw.ca> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Aw, poor Biff. Suck it up. Is that obese fat f.ck Fiero back again?
Brian Henderson - 04 Apr 2008 21:59 GMT > Gee, that's SO unlike, say, leftist darling Michael Moore, isn't it? > [chuckle] He's an a.shole too, what do you expect?
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Felix D. - 04 Apr 2008 01:46 GMT >> No, this is a Ben Stein movie. Al Gore and the enviro-nazis have nothing >> to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to a scene from a Nazi death camp, desperately trying to link science to > Nazism. Are you saying Stein learned creative editing from Michael Moore?
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