a question about non - locality
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Kevin Blake - 23 Mar 2005 21:52 GMT In Bjorken and Drell - QED part 1 I read a statement that one doesnt use a square rooted Hamiltonian (H= SQRT/m*2.c*4+m*2.p*2/) in a wave equation of the Schoedinger type (ih.dpsi/dt=H.psi) because after expanding the root in Taylor series one gets all powers to infinity of the space derivatives. This makes the theory non-local.
1.Now I don't inderstand how the n+1 derivative is more non- local than the n-th derivative in the end all is taken to the limit of the local point) 2.Then in the quantum theory based on Schroedinger equation there are only second order derivatives over space but nevertheless one is left at the end with a non-local theory (EPR type paradoxes).
Robert C. Helling - 24 Mar 2005 16:02 GMT > In Bjorken and Drell - QED part 1 I read a statement that one doesnt > use a square rooted Hamiltonian (H= SQRT/m*2.c*4+m*2.p*2/) in a wave [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than the n-th derivative in the end all is taken to the limit of the > local point) You are right, any finite number of derivatives is local. However powerseries in derivatives can be non-local. The standard example is the translation operator exp(a d_x) (d_x is the derivative):
(exp(a d_x) f)(x) = f(x+a)
and that's genuinely non-local.
> 2.Then in the quantum theory based on Schroedinger equation there are > only second order derivatives over space but nevertheless one is left > at the end with a non-local theory (EPR type paradoxes). Usual quantum field theory is a local theory. In the EPR type setups, it's just the state that is prepared in a non-local way. You can see this from the fact that you cannot use EPR type states to transmit information faster than light (even if some articles in the popular press suggest just this).
Robert
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Susy - 24 Mar 2005 22:51 GMT [Moderator's note: please quote to provide context. -ik]
mmmm
i do not see in what sense in that example f(x) was non local
i mean how to determine whether a function or a term in the hamiltonian or the lagrangian is local or not, what defines locality here ?
i still have troubles with SQRT(m^2+p^2) understanding its nonlocal behaviour as many authors say in their books
susy
Arnold Neumaier - 29 Mar 2005 18:16 GMT Probably in reply to
> It is only the infinite sum that is nonlocal. > sum h^k/k! d^k f(x)/dx^k = f(x+h) > is the value at a point at some distance from x.
> i do not see in what sense in that example f(x) was non local integral dx F(x) is defined to be local if F(x) depends only on finitely many fields and/or finitely many derivatives of fields evaluated at x, and nonlocal otherwise.
> i mean how to determine whether a function or a term in the hamiltonian > or the lagrangian is local or not, what defines locality here ? > > i still have troubles with SQRT(m^2+p^2) understanding its nonlocal > behaviour as many authors say in their books If you expand it into a power series in p=i d/dx, one sees that one needs derivatives of all orders. Thus finitely many do not suffice, and it is nonlocal.
Arnold Neumaier
Susy - 30 Mar 2005 01:40 GMT > > i still have troubles with SQRT(m^2+p^2) understanding its nonlocal > > behaviour as many authors say in their books > > If you expand it into a power series in p=i d/dx, one sees that one > needs derivatives of all orders. Thus finitely many do not suffice, > and it is nonlocal. Well, why then using the specific word "local" ? I thought the use of that word was because it is meaningful and indicates some physical meaning to the problem (like when we say two operators do not commute it means physically that you can not make simaltanous measuraments..etc) In what way is the physics of the case in which one has finite number of derivatives say is different from the case when one has an infinite number of them?
I mean what would a non local term (as an interaction term in the hamiltonian say) implies physically, what is its physical meaning or physical consequencies ? Is it only that it is a mathematically difficulty since one has an infinite numbers of derivative which can not be handled?
Susy
Arnold Neumaier - 30 Mar 2005 15:59 GMT >>>i still have troubles with SQRT(m^2+p^2) understanding its nonlocal >>>behaviour as many authors say in their books [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well, why then using the specific word "local" ? Because such words are usually chosen because of some resemblance to the ordinary sense of the word, not by a complete correspondence.
> I thought the use of that word was because it is meaningful and > indicates some physical meaning to the problem (like when we say two > operators do not commute it means physically that you can not make > simaltanous measuraments..etc)
> In what way is the physics of the case in which one has finite number > of derivatives say is different from the case when one has an infinite > number of them? Because sum h^k/k! d^k f(x)/dx^k = f(x+h) is the value at a point at some distance from x, one _cannot_ consider an expression depending on all derivatives as local.
But one containing finitely many derivatives only behaves qualitatively different since by increasing the number of fields one can make all but first derivatives disappear. And the latter has been thought of as local ever since field theory was invented.
> I mean what would a non local term (as an interaction term in the > hamiltonian say) implies physically, what is its physical meaning or > physical consequencies ? Coulomb interactions are manifestly nonlocal, for example, since they depend on two positions. In quantum field theory, however, they are derived from the interaction with the local electromagnetic field. The transformation essentially involves the nonlocal integral operator 1/p^2.
> Is it only that it is a mathematically difficulty since one has an > infinite numbers of derivative which can not be handled? No; it is the mathematically different behavior of polynomials and nonpolynomials in p.
Arnold Neumaier
Susy - 31 Mar 2005 05:46 GMT > > I mean what would a non local term (as an interaction term in the > > hamiltonian say) implies physically, what is its physical meaning or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The transformation essentially involves the nonlocal integral > operator 1/p^2. That means if some lagrangian is local, and some interaction is described by a propagator from that lagrangian (a decay of pi^+ via W^+, intermediate vector boson say into muon and anti neutrino) would be nonlocal since it depends on 2 positions?
So because that the photon propagator for coulomb interaction say, propagates from one point to another, which does not make it localised at one point, hence this interaction is nonlocal, is my understanding correct ?
So roughly speaking nonlocality is not harmful as far as the original vertices are local as in the case of Coloumb interaction say, yet i can not connect that picture to understand the problem with the term SQRT{m^2+p^2}, i only see that if one expands it one gets infinitely many terms, which i see as a mathematical difficulty, but i do not know how to interpret that difficulty physically as far as the physical meaning of locality is concerned (like in the case of coulomb field which was beautiful clear example)
Susy
Arnold Neumaier - 31 Mar 2005 16:42 GMT >>>I mean what would a non local term (as an interaction term in the >>>hamiltonian say) implies physically, what is its physical meaning [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > W^+, intermediate vector boson say into muon and anti neutrino) would > be nonlocal since it depends on 2 positions? If you eliminate the mediating boson, the reduced system is nonlocal. Thus locality depends on the level of description.
One can approximate it, however, by a local 4-Fermion interaction. (This works well at tree level but runs into renormalization problems at higher loops.) Thus locality also depends on the accuracy of the description.
> So because that the photon propagator for coulomb interaction say, > propagates from one point to another, which does not make it localised > at one point, hence this interaction is nonlocal, is my understanding > correct ? As long as you consider virtual photons mediating the Coulomb interaction, you are still in the detailed, local description. Once you get rid of all this virtual stuff, you are left with something nonlocal.
> So roughly speaking nonlocality is not harmful It is never harmful in itself. It depends on the analytic form of the nonlocality whether it creates mathematical difficulties.
> as far as the original > vertices are local as in the case of Coloumb interaction say, yet > i can not connect that picture to understand the problem with the term > SQRT{m^2+p^2}, i only see that if one expands it one gets infinitely > many terms, which i see as a mathematical difficulty, Well, one either expands it in few terms only and ignores the rest (e.g. a Breit approximation), or one keeps it in closed form. Then there are no further difficulties.
> but i do not know > how to interpret that difficulty physically as far as the physical > meaning of locality is concerned This case is not directly interpretable.
Arnold Neumaier
Dan Bowman - 30 Mar 2005 19:52 GMT > > If you expand it into a power series in p=i d/dx, one sees that one > > needs derivatives of all orders. Thus finitely many do not suffice, > > and it is nonlocal. > > Well, why then using the specific word "local" ? <snip>
> I mean what would a non local term (as an interaction term in the > hamiltonian say) implies physically, what is its physical meaning or > physical consequencies ? To understand locality in this context (as mentioned by previous posters, there's more than one concept called "locality" to contend with in relativistic quantum physics), you need to understand the mathematical concept of the support of a function. If you have a function f(x), its support is basically the set of points on which the function takes nonzero values. To be precise, it's the closure of the compliment of the set of points on which the function vanishes. But for the purposes of this discussion, just think of it as the points where the function is nonzero. This set is usually denoted supp f.
If the function is to be thought of as a single-particle wavefunction, then the support more or less tells you the region in space where the particle is localized, i.e., the places where there's a chance you might find it. One way to see this is to consider the expectation of the position operator X in the state f:
(f, Xf) = int dx f^*(x) x f(x)
Clearly, we only get contributions on the right hand side for those "eigenvalues" x of X in the support of f. So, the particle is localized in supp f, in this sense.
Now, mathematically, an operator on a function space is called local if the support of the resulting function is equal to or contained in the support of the original function. Thus, if L is a local operator, we would have
supp Lf \subset supp f
One can show that if P is a (finite) polynomial with either constant or non-constant coefficients, then P(d/dx) is a local operator under the above definition. However, this isn't necessarily the case for an infinite series in derivatives. The classic example, as several previous posters mentioned, is the translation operator. If T_a denotes translation by a, then supp T_a f will have the same shape as supp f, but it will be shifted by a. Thus, no matter how small of an a you use (as long as its not zero), there will always be points in supp T_a f that aren't in supp f. So, by the above definition, T_a is a nonlocal operator.
But, what does this mean physically, you ask? Well, since the support is basically the region in which you expect to find the particle in question, by translating the support, you've instaneously moved its area of localization. That certainly can't be considered to be a local operation in the usual physical sense. Put another way, (T_a f)(x) depends on values of f at places other than x, in contrast to the case of a finite number of derivatives. That's a hallmark of nonlocality.
Now, the translation operator just moves the support around, but it retains its shape. There are other kinds of nonlocal operators that do more. The classic examples of one of these is a convolution operator, like the Coulomb potential. Neglecting overall constants, the Coulomb potential is basically given by
(Cf)(x) = int dx' |x-x'|^{-1} f(x')
If x_0 is a point lying outside the support of f, (Cf)(x_0) will not necessarily be zero because there will be contributions to the integral from all x' that lie in the support of f. So, C doesn't obey the criterion for being a local operator either. Physically, it instaneously changes the localization region of the particle in a weird way.
As a final note, when you're thinking about these things, it helps to take f to be a bump function. That's basically something like a square pulse centered at some point x_0 with all the corners smoothed out so that it's infinitely differentiable. Then you can think about what a given operator would do to the bump function. In the case of T_a, it'll just move it around. C will be more bizarre and I'll leave that case to you as an exercise.
I hope that helps, somewhat. Dan.
Aaron Bergman - 24 Mar 2005 22:51 GMT In article <slrnd45abn.dc8.robert@localhost.localdomain>, "Robert C. Helling" <robert@helling-dell600.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de> wrote:
> > In Bjorken and Drell - QED part 1 I read a statement that one doesnt > > use a square rooted Hamiltonian (H= SQRT/m*2.c*4+m*2.p*2/) in a wave [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > and that's genuinely non-local. This is said a lot, and I hadn't really thought about it much, but there's something funky here. The above formula only holds for analytic functions. Now, at least in whatever way we can make sense of it, analytic functions are going to be of measure zero in the path integral.
On the other hand, in the stationary phase approximation, you'll probably get analytic functions, and things really will look nonlocal. So what's going on here?
Aaron
Arnold Neumaier - 24 Mar 2005 22:51 GMT > In Bjorken and Drell - QED part 1 I read a statement that one doesnt > use a square rooted Hamiltonian (H= SQRT/m*2.c*4+m*2.p*2/) in a wave [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than the n-th derivative – in the end all is taken to the limit of the > local point) It is only the infinite sum that is nonlocal. sum h^k/k! d^k f(x)/dx^k = f(x+h) is the value at a point at some distance from x.
> 2.Then in the quantum theory based on Schroedinger equation there are > only second order derivatives over space but nevertheless one is left > at the end with a non-local theory (EPR type paradoxes). These are two different notions of nonlocality.
Arnold Neumaier
Cl.Massé - 24 Mar 2005 22:51 GMT > In Bjorken and Drell - QED part 1 I read a statement that one doesnt > use a square rooted Hamiltonian (H= SQRT/m*2.c*4+m*2.p*2/) in a wave > equation of the Schoedinger type > (–ih.dpsi/dt=H.psi) because after expanding the root in Taylor series > one gets all powers to infinity of the space derivatives. This makes > the theory non-local. The Schroedinger equation isn't relativistic, it isn't supposed to have all the good properties. Which and why is really an exercise in futility, or in mathematics.
Note that the *massive* Dirac equation doesn't use a square-root either, it is a simple factorization. Note again that the "squared" equation is also a valid one. The only reason why it isn't used is that it has less independent variables. Note thirdly that the Maxwell equation is still another factorization, that use another representation of the Poincaré group, and this is the genuine reason why the Schrödinger equation isn't amenable to such a handling.
> 1.Now I don't inderstand how the n+1 derivative is more non- local > than the n-th derivative – in the end all is taken to the limit of the > local point) The Nth derivative, with N very large, is local. That doesn't imply that the derivative isn't non-local for N tending to infinity.
> 2.Then in the quantum theory based on Schroedinger equation there are > only second order derivatives over space but nevertheless one is left > at the end with a non-local theory (EPR type paradoxes). The equation by itself isn't non-local. It's interpretation is, which postulates the projection onto an eigenstate at the time of a measure.
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Ilja Schmelzer - 25 Mar 2005 12:08 GMT > In Bjorken and Drell - QED part 1 I read a statement that one doesnt > use a square rooted Hamiltonian (H= SQRT/m*2.c*4+m*2.p*2/) in a wave [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than the n-th derivative - in the end all is taken to the limit of the > local point) AFAIU, your question is how a power series in local operators (d/dx)^i can give a nonlocal operator as the limit?
To see how this happens it is reasonable to look at the power series expansion of the shift operator s_a: u(x) -> u(x+a) which is obviously nonlocal. But we have nonetheless:
s_a = exp (a d/dx) = sum a^i/i! (d/dx)^i
This can be seen by considering d/da s_a u(x) = lim(u(x+a+h)-u(x+a))/h = d/dx s_a u(x) similar to d/da exp (a d/dx) = d/dx exp (a d/dx)
> 2.Then in the quantum theory based on Schroedinger equation there are > only second order derivatives over space but nevertheless one is left > at the end with a non-local theory (EPR type paradoxes). EPR is something completely different.
Ilja
C. M. Heard - 26 Mar 2005 09:42 GMT Aaron Bergman wrote:
> "Robert C. Helling" wrote: [ ... ]
> > You are right, any finite number of derivatives is local. However > > powerseries in derivatives can be non-local. The standard example is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > functions. Now, at least in whatever way we can make sense of it, > analytic functions are going to be of measure zero in the path integral. One way to make sense of this is to consider the map f -> (exp(a d_x) f) as a linear operator in the Hilbert space L^2(R). For analytic functions it is defined by a power-series in derivatives. In particular, it is defined for all finite linear combinations of the Hermite-Gauss energy eigenfunctions of a harmonic oscillator. Furthermore the norm is bounded over this set. But this set is dense in L^2(R) since the Hermite-Gauss functions are a basis. A bounded linear operator being continuous, the definition can be extended to all of L^2(R).
The key to this is that a set of measure zero can be dense, and a bounded linear operator that is densely defined extends to the whole Hilbert space.
Mike
Aaron Bergman - 29 Mar 2005 09:20 GMT > Aaron Bergman wrote: > > "Robert C. Helling" wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > bounded linear operator that is densely defined extends to the whole > Hilbert space. Sure. This all makes sense in the Hamiltonian formalism. I was thinking about the path integral, which, of course, is horribly ill-defined. Still, the answer is probably along the same lines in that the only definition of the above element in the lagrangian that can make sense is to simply write it as f(x+a).
Aaron
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