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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Research / December 2007



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Exact solution of 2-body problem in GR?

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Melroy - 23 Oct 2007 04:46 GMT
Hi
Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved
exactly?
If so can someone point me to it?
Thanks
jacques - 25 Oct 2007 18:55 GMT
> Hi
> Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved
> exactly?
> If so can someone point me to it?
> Thanks

There is an exact (simple) solution of the n-bodies problem in GR for
a set of n-extremal Reisner-Nordstrom Black holes. See ie "Space time
and Geometry" (Sean M. Carroll) p259-261 for the solution.
In introducing the negative mass in GR, Bondi studied the 2-bodies
problem in GR including one of negative mass.
( Negative mass in GR , H. Bondi, Review of modern physic Vol 29 Nb 3
July 1957).
The conclusion is not so clear, as a solution implies some special
conditon at infinity,  but the demo is interesting...
Igor Khavkine - 25 Oct 2007 18:55 GMT
> Hi
> Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved
> exactly?
> If so can someone point me to it?

The answer is most likely No. The reason is simple. If you have a
complicated system of ordinary or partial differential equations (and
that's all that the 2-body problem in GR is), to show that it has an
exact solution, you need only demonstrate one. On the other hand, to
show that it doesn't have exact solutions, one has to be more
ingenious.

The first step would be to specify precisely what you mean by "exact".
Usually, "exact" means some kind of simple expression that can be
written down on paper. Similar questions have been asked for hundreds
of years. A representative example concerns the solutions of a fifth
order polynomial equation. Instead of "exact", one asks for solutions
expressible in terms of usual algebraic operations and radicals. The
answer is (in general) negative and the proof gave birth to Galois
theory in algebra. Similar questions have been asked about the
evaluation of indefinite integrals and solutions of differential
equations. In this context, "exact" now refers to expressions
involving only algebraic operations and elementary functions (one
could also generalize to a class called Liouville functions). Attempts
to prove such (in)solvability for differential equations have given
birth to differential Galois theory. I'm sure similar work has been
done by now for some partial differential equations.

So, for any given system of differential equations, there may or may
not be theorems about its solvability in terms of elementary (or a
slightly more general class of functions), depending on its
complexity. Also, as far as I'm aware, the set of people sufficiently
familiar with the methods of differential Galois theory and with the
general relativistic 2-body problem is extremely small. That's why I
doubt that anyone has a definite answer about "exact" solvability of
this problem.

Hope this helps. If the above answer is somewhat unsatisfactory,
you'll have to refine your notion of "exact solution".

Igor
Juan R. - 28 Oct 2007 07:03 GMT
> Hi
> Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved
> exactly?
> If so can someone point me to it?
> Thanks

I do not know of any specific proof for GR. I know for field/metric
theories. By FIELD I mean some F_ab(r,t) and by METRIC some g_ab(r,t).
Either being solutions of Maxwell or Hilbert/Einstein equations,
respectively.

The current emphasis on alternative dynamical theories without fields
has its root in the impossibility to generate a full N-body solution
using fields (or metrics), as brilliantly stated in page 20 of  [1].
The _intuitive_ idea of the problem with field N-body dynamics is as
follow.

A body acts as source and generates a field (or curves spacetime in
GR) whereas another body (the test one) feels the effect. The
interaction is _asymmetric_ in time

B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2

This model is _ignoring_ the effect of the test body (B2) on the field/
metric. One could try with a combination like

B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1

But this model will not work in general.

The explanation is that the first computation gets the effect on B2 by
isolated B1, which is an approximation. Then that approximated B2 is
used in a new approximated computation (now ignoring the presence of
B1) and gives a final approximated B1.

In general, we may write

B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'

B1' being different from B1 means that the system is not self-
consistent. The model is not a real two-body model but two one-body
model.

Of course, 2-body field/metric solutions can be obtained for certain
dynamical regimes or under certain approximations (e.g. retaining
terms only up to c^2 order).

In those special cases B1' = B1 and the system is self-consistent. But
in the general case, there exists not N-body solution for field/metric
theories.

Notice this is not just a problem of GR. It is a problem of Maxwell
electrodynamics and quantum field theory also.

How to solve it?

Developing a full N-body relativistic solution. There are several
alternatives under active research. A well-known theory has been
applied to a range of N-body problems on relativistic molecular
physics and quantum chemistry is shown in the monograph [1].

The N-body theory is based on symmetric relativistic potentials

B1 <--> B2

for _both_ relativistic electromagnetism and gravity. And goes beyond
the limits of GR and Maxwell electrodynamics in the study of
relativistic N-body systems.

The theory is not still completely general in my opinion. However, it
is a good monograph maybe you would take as start point for research
on the topic of N-body dynamics.

Above i tried to explain the limitation of GR in some intuitive
manner. I have avoided a formal discussion because involves branches
of physics and mathematics beyond usual practice.

For instance, for understanding the potentials used in [1], one may
have got a good basis on the physical and mathematical differences
between time-implicit (R(t)) and time-explicit (r,t) interactions.

GR and Maxwell electrodynamics only deal with latter type. The
potentials on [1] are of the Lorentz invariant time-implicit class.

REFERENCES AND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

[1] Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics. Springer; 1999. Trump,
Matthew A; Schieve, William C.

See also my post sci.physics.research post of Aug 21 titled
"Relativistic Lagrangian and limitations of field theory"

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/browse_frm/thread/3f3851e073
c91de8
#

Look for the "four limitation".
Tom Roberts - 31 Oct 2007 06:51 GMT
> In general, we may write
> B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'
>
> B1' being different from B1 means that the system is not self-
> consistent. The model is not a real two-body model but two one-body
> model.

Yes. Note, however, that this is just the first iteration of an
iterative self-consistent computation (c.f. the Hartree-Fock method in
QM, and other self-consistent field approximations in other areas).

> [...]
> in the general case, there exists not N-body solution for field/metric
> theories.

This is NOT a proof of non-existence of a solution (which is what the
original poster asked about). This is merely an observation that the
first iteration of this approach is not exact. Note that there is, in
general, no guarantee that this iterative approach will converge; I
believe there is a proof that IF it converges then it converges to a
valid solution of the original set of differential equations (there are
additional mathematical caveats to this, but physical systems probably
satisfy them). In practice, when the interactions are weak then it
usually does converge; when interactions are not weak then convergence
usually depends on how accurately one can guess the initial functions
(e.g. if you start with a valid solution then it will converge, at least
for linear systems, which GR is not).

> Notice this is not just a problem of GR. It is a problem of Maxwell
> electrodynamics and quantum field theory also.

Sure. This is a problem of all theories consisting of a set of coupled
differential equations. The above iterative technique is used in many
applications involving coupled differential equations....

> How to solve it?

Solve the original set of coupled differential equations together. This
is usually quite challenging (often the only viable approach is
numerical integration). Note that this is the approach with which
hundreds of closed-form solutions to the Einstein field equation have
been found. Note also that we are essentially back where the original
poster asked the question: under what circumstances is there a solution
that can be written in closed form? -- I am not mathematician enough to
even begin an answer to that.

Tom Roberts
Juan R. - 03 Nov 2007 16:55 GMT
> > In general, we may write
> > B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> iterative self-consistent computation (c.f. the Hartree-Fock method in
> QM, and other self-consistent field approximations in other areas).

You are assuming that the iteration will be self-consistent. Just from
the section 1.6 of the monograph on relativistic dynamics I cited in a
previous message:

{BLOCKQUOTE
The most straightforward explanation of why eq. (1.32) is not a many-
body Lagrangian is that it provides no self-consistent method of
finding the values of A^{MU} at the localization of the particles for
an arbitrary time.
}

The no self-consistency of general relativity is similar, if either
more complex because the gravitational interaction is nonlinear and
spin-2, that is, g^{MU NU}.

They mean the iteration is not self-consistent in the _general_ case.
Of course, they discuss two typical special cases where it is self-
consistent:

(i) The c^2 approx. The system is self-consistent because up to second
order you can do B1 = B1'

B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1

(ii) the infinite mass limit. In this case the effect of B2 over
massive B1 is of order (1/mass) and B1 = B1'

B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1

But both are _special_ cases. The general case is

B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'

> > [...]
> > in the general case, there exists not N-body solution for field/metric
> > theories.
>
> This is NOT a proof of non-existence of a solution (which is what the
> original poster asked about).

Like I have apologized in a previous message:

{BLOCKQUOTE
Above i tried to explain the limitation of GR in some intuitive
manner. I have avoided a formal discussion because involves branches
of physics and mathematics beyond usual practice.
}

I also pointed in a previous message the mathematical/physical basis
for the PROOF. The PROOF that GR and Maxwell electrodynamics are not N-
body theories relies on that both only deal with local time-explicit
(r,t) interactions. Whereas the interactions on the theory cited are
of the Lorentz invariant time-implicit class.

Anyone interested can go to the monograph and follow to specialized
literature for details on the PROOF, some at level of mathematical
physics.

> This is merely an observation that the
> first iteration of this approach is not exact. Note that there is, in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> additional mathematical caveats to this, but physical systems probably
> satisfy them).

You are confounding lacking one analitical solution with the lack of
solution. I will explain the difference between both in plain terms.

Take stationary N-body quantum mechanics as illustration. We know that
the analitical solution for the N-body problem exists and we can write
the solution formally. We can write both the N-body wavefunction and
the N-body Hamiltonian. The solution exist but the problem is the
computational difficulty. Then we use numerical methods like Hartree-
Fock you cited above.

The lack of solution is a different issue. Lacking indicates that the
theory (not our computational capability) is limited. When a theory is
limited, we substitute it by a more general theory. The new theory
contains a set of solutions are not available on the former theory.
The monograph on relativistic N-body dynamics is clear:

{BLOCKQUOTE
As mentioned above, relativistic field theory is esentially a one-body
theory, in that it is incapable of describing the n-body system
}

Of course, as remarked before, field/metric theory can give n-body
solutions in some special cases (c^2 approx, infinite mass limit...).

> > How to solve it?
>
> Solve the original set of coupled differential equations together. This
> is usually quite challenging (often the only viable approach is
> numerical integration).

But you are promoting a wrong solution. You are confounding again
computational problems with theoretical problems. The first are solved
by more resources or by better mathematics or algorithms. The others
problems are only solved by developing a new theory.

As I said before the solution is the development of a new theory with
genuine N-body solutions built-in. Let me remark again there exist
several proposals on specialized literature [#] on relativistic N-body
dynamics.

The cited monograph is devoted to one of best known theories. The
monograph covers applications and also comparison with field/metric
theories, see for instance "1.6 Comparison to field theory". Also
interesting is the latter chapter "8 Conclusion and sugestions",

{BLOCKQUOTE
Of course, the most interesting results derived from the many-body
theory are for systems for which field theory is not capable of
producing the equations of motion
}

> Note that this is the approach with which
> hundreds of closed-form solutions to the Einstein field equation have
> been found.

Those solutions you cite are well-known. They are not full N-body
relativistic solutions. A clear limitation is because interactions are
modelled by metrics g_ab = g_ab(r,t).

If you take a look to the monograph you can see 2-body gravitational
interaction (eq. 6.1 and 6.10) is a functional expression with
implicit time-dependence _cannot_ be mathematically reducible to some
g_ab(r,t).

As remarked before the new theory is beyond GR, which cannot model the
FULL relativistic 2-body motion.

> Tom Roberts

[#] For instance, Horwitz/Piron/Reuse/Grelland theory is standard in
relativistic molecular physics and quantum chemistry. The authors
studied the quantum relativistic 2-body problem and showed new theory
reduces to usual field-theory in the infinite mass limit.
Igor Khavkine - 08 Nov 2007 17:18 GMT
> > > In general, we may write
> > > B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> }

You are right in the saying that the equations of motion of one or
several particles coupled to a field are inconsistent as usually
written, which for the example of a massless scalar field is as
follows:

 del^2 phi(x) = int ds delta(x-z(s)),             (1)
 m z''(s) = - grad_perp phi(z(s)),                (2)

where del^2 is the D'Alambertian, phi(x) is a scalar field, z(s) is the
particle world line parametrized by proper time s, and grad_perp
corresponds to the space-time gradient projected into the subspace
orthogonal to the world line. Because of a quirk of the usual way of
coupling the scalar field to a particle, the factor m actually
represents an "effective mass", which depends on phi(z(s)), but that's
not too important at the moment.  There could also be more than one
particle, hence more than one world-line, and more than one z. In that
case, the RHS of (1) is additive.

The inconsistency comes from the fact that any solution to (1) gives a
phi(x) that diverges on the particle's world line. Therefore the value,
let alone the gradient, of phi(x) is not defined at z(s), which makes
the RHS of (2) undefined. This has been known since before the time of
Abraham and Lorentz, who were the first to suggest a resolution to
problem.

Having looked at the monograph of Trump and Schieve, according to the
authors, this problem has been one of the major motivations for work on
alternative formulations of relativistic N-body dynamics. Their approach
is decides to get rid of (1) and (2) completely, and start with
something new. But more on that later.

However, one can also try to change (2) so that the RHS is well
defined, while the rest of the equations is unmodified. The motivation
is two fold: the divergence of phi(x) at the world line is due to the
way the world line comes into the RHS of (1) (hence, removing this
self-field may eliminate the divergence alltogether), and if phi(x) is
produced by other means (distant particles, for example), then we know
that the equation of motion for the particle is definitely (2).

The first modification of these equations of motion is due to Abraham,
Lorentz and Dirac, who described a way to subtract the self-field
contribution from the RHS of (2) (along with theoretical reasons for
doing so), leaving behind a finite and well defined force. Their result
was consistent with the well known and tested Larmor formula for the
total radiated power from an accelerating charge. Unfortunately, the
regime where the Abraham-Lorentz-Dirac equation becomes important in
the dynamics of a moving charge, is not easily accessible
experimentally. So, for a long time (and arguably still) the question
of validity of the ALD equation has been largely academic.

Fortunately, this situation is rapidly changing. In recent years, the
question of gravitational radiation of moving massive compact objects
has come to the attention of gravitational wave astronomers (LIGO and
LISA experiments). The theoretical predictions of the emitted wave
forms can be compared to observed data, once the signal to noise ratio
of the gravitational wave detectors gets high enough. Subsequently,
there has been quite a bit of theoretical work on the subject. A great
review of this recent work can be found in an article by Eric Poisson
(2004, http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2004-6). Further, the journal
of Classical and Quantum Gravity had a special issue in 2005 dedicated
almost entirely to this problem (volume 22, issue 15,
http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0264-9381/22/15).

For those who are curious, the approach described by Poisson consists
of generalizing the arguments used to obtain the ALD equation to curved
spaces and arbitrary fields, including the gravitational field. It also
fixes the most unsavory feature of the ALD equation; it is converted to
second order in time, as opposed to third order. Others have also
generalized the approach to point particles with a little bit of
internal structure (spinning particles, for instance).

The moral of this story is that yes, equations (1) and (2) as written
are not consistent and hence cannot describe the motion of point
particles coupled to fields. On the other hand, there is a well defined
way of modifying the RHS of equation (2) such that the results agrees
with all known observations and can produce predictions that can very
soon be testable. This question of what the correct modification of
equations (1) and (2) will soon no longer be academic.

Now, let me come back to the monograph by Trump and Schieve.  They
propose an alternative formulation of N-body dynamics, without fields
and using ideas very similar to interaction potentials in
non-relativistic Newtonian mechanics. In my understanding, it can be
summarized as follows. For a system of N particles, take R^(4N) as the
configuration space and throw in another copy of R^(4N) for canonically
conjugate momenta, the result is an 8N-dimensional phase space. The
configuration space is seen as an N-fold product of Minkowski
space-times, each endowed with an appropriate metric. The configuration
space is now also endowed with a metric, but this metric is now of the
signature of N minuses and 3N plusses. A corresponding metric is
induced on the space of canonical momenta. The dynamics are specified
by giving a Hamiltonian function and imposing the canonical equations
of motion. The Hamiltonian is required to be invariant under the
Poincare group, as it acts on each copy of Minkowski space separately
and simultaneously. There is an external time parameter, as in the
usual formulation of Hamiltonian classical mechanics. Once an initial
condition is specified, the dynamics yield a curve in the
8N-dimensional phase space. The curve can be first projected into the
4N-dimensional configuration space, and then represented as N curves in
one copy of 4-dimensional Minkowski space. These N curves are
interpreted as the world-lines of N interacting particles.

Unfortunately, there are problems with this approach. Here are some.

The "synchronization" of the initial conditions is arbitrary, but not
irrelevant. To specify initial conditions, on needs to give an event (4
coordinates) from the world line of each particle, and a 4-velocity
tangent to the world line at each of these events. Now, suppose I've
got a set of world lines, obtained by a specific set of initial
conditions. I can choose a different set of initial conditions (events
and 4-velocities) consistent with the same set of world lines and plug
them into the dynamical equations. Generically, the result of solving
the canonical evolution equations with the second set of initial
conditions will yield a different set of world lines! In other words,
in this theory, a set of world lines is not enough to determine the
state of N particles (the coresponding point in phase space), one also
needs to specify a synchronization convention. This is definitely more
information that is justified, say, by the non-relativistic limit.

The causal structure of one trajectory in N copies of Minkowski
space-time is not the same as the causal structure of N trajectories in
the same Minkowski space-time. The result is the appearance of
so-called "exotic" world lines as possible solutions. These are world
lines that fail to remain time-like at all times. And, in my opinion,
it is not sufficient to invoke particle creation or annihilation to
explain this away. The analogy with Feynman diagrams is false, since
the lines in Feynman graphs are not particle trajectories.

In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in
this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have
also eliminated a reason for using the Coulomb potential away from the
non-relativistic regime. Recall that the Coulomb potential is obtained
by solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge. In
addition, there appears no way to introduce radiation losses into this
Hamiltonian formalism, which is a well known physical effect (cf.
cyclotron physics).

Lastly, an appendix in Trump and Schieve's book attempts to invalidate
the result of the famous relativistic interaction no-go theorem due to
Currie, Jordan, and Sudarshan (see Rev.Mod.Phys. v.35 p.350).
Unfortunately, a careful reading of this appendix reveals that Trump
and Schieve simply managed to get lost in derivatives and
reparametrizations while interpreting the assumptions of the CJK paper.
The argument given in this appendix has no bearing on the result of the
CJK no-go theorem.

Igor
Juan R. - 20 Nov 2007 07:06 GMT
On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:

>   del^2 phi(x) = int ds delta(x-z(s)),             (1)
>   m z''(s) = - grad_perp phi(z(s)),                (2)

> Having looked at the monograph of Trump and Schieve, according to the
> authors, this problem has been one of the major motivations for work on
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> However, one can also try to change (2) so that the RHS is well
> defined, while the rest of the equations is unmodified.

But we know that simple modification does not provide us a full N-body
relativistic theory. That is reason they go beyond (1) also. Details
below.

> The first modification of these equations of motion is due to Abraham,
> Lorentz and Dirac, who described a way to subtract the self-field
> contribution from the RHS of (2) (along with theoretical reasons for
> doing so), leaving behind a finite and well defined force. Their result
> was consistent with the well known and tested Larmor formula for the
> total radiated power from an accelerating charge.

Yes, Dirac showed difference {A_self^adv - A_self^ret} remains finite
even for a point-like electron and gives us a generalized equation of
motion. You may also know that Fokker, Wheeler, Feynman, and others
showed how Dirac generalized equation follows from a new theory
(different from field theory).

It is well-known that using a Fokker action one can get the extra
terms of the equation of motion (people cannot read the monograph can
see online the terms [1]). This is an important advance over the
traditional field theory but still one cannot get a 2-body equation of
motion from Fokker-like actions.

That is reason we are developing more advanced relativistic theories.
For instance, the new theory on the monograph cited can be used for
finding genuine 2-body relativistic solutions. In integral form,

SIGMA(1, 2; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1, 2; 0)

with L being a 8N classical Liouvillian defined over the Hamiltonian K
(see online [4] for K expression).

> A great
> review of this recent work can be found in an article by Eric Poisson
> (2004, http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2004-6). Further, the journal
> of Classical and Quantum Gravity had a special issue in 2005 dedicated
> almost entirely to this problem (volume 22, issue 15,
> http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0264-9381/22/15).

But i do not see any full N-body relativistic dynamics there. Do you
find something minimally similar to

SIGMA(1, 2; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1, 2; 0)?

Since the Poisson review you cite is available online I will discuss
it. The theory reviewed on it is not about full N-body relativistic
dynamics. E.g. section 5 "Motion of Point Particles" only contains a
bunch of simple (even trivial!) one-body classical equations of motion
in 'external' fields (or metrics). That kind of limited theory is of
no real help for us (fundamental theoreticians).

And even for the simple case of one-body equations, the review is very
difficult to accept.

For instance, I find odd that Poisson just postulates eq. (3) without
deriving it from first principles; does not specify limits of
applicability; and does not remark in any part that eq. (3) violates
causality implicit on the field theoretic framework (if either it is
also odd just before the equation 3 Poisson says that retarded
potential is the physically-relevant solution!).

> For those who are curious, the approach described by Poisson consists
> of generalizing the arguments used to obtain the ALD equation to curved
> spaces and arbitrary fields, including the gravitational field. It also
> fixes the most unsavory feature of the ALD equation; it is converted to
> second order in time, as opposed to third order.

It is true that Poisson says:

{BLOCKQUOTE
I have reduced the order of the differential equation
}

but the procedure Poisson follows is difficult to accept for us.

Poisson starts from a field theoretic action, next adds extra
postulates like (3) in some _ad hoc_ way and then derives equations of
motion are of third order. E.g. see equations (427), (428), (430).

After deriving eqs. (427), (428), (430) from field theory (plus the
extra postulates/assumptions), Poisson remark their known unphysical
behavior. It is then when Poisson just introduces another _ad hoc_
assumption leading him to substitute

{DOT a} --> {{DOT f} OVER m}

This _ad hoc_ substitution gives 'well-behaved' final equations (431)
and (432). I recall both equations being different from the _initial
unphysical_ equations derived from the field theoretic action.

I would remark that Poisson only discusses:

(i) How the one-body _formal_ [3] equation of motion would be. He
avoids any discussion of the generic N-body equation.

(ii) What _extra_ assumptions/postulates are needed to force the
equation to behave correctly. No derivation of final equations from
first principles and no rigorous justification of the final equations
on a field (or metric) theoretical framework.

Rohrlich also followed a similar approach [2]. He begins from a field
theoretic action, derives an unphysical equation, and then corrects it
by invoking _ad hoc_ approximated assumptions based in phenomenology.

Just compare with the rigorous and elegant point of view taken by
Fokker, Dirac, Wheeler, Feynman, Hoyle, Narlikar, and others. They
start beyond field theory, proposing a new action, and next derive the
general 1-body equation of motion from it (including the terms cannot
obtained from the field theoretic action). No need for the _ad hoc_
assumptions or heuristic arguments used in field theory.

Their elegant theory is also free from internal contradictions have
plagued field theory during centuries. And all of us (fundamental
theoreticians) recognize that was an advance. But as remarked before
the theory is limited. This turns our attention to other newer
theories, e.g. that of the monograph I cited.

> Now, let me come back to the monograph by Trump and Schieve.  They
> propose an alternative formulation of N-body dynamics, without fields
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> configuration space and throw in another copy of R^(4N) for canonically
> conjugate momenta, the result is an 8N-dimensional phase space.

Right. Being 4N on the quantum formulation.

> Unfortunately, there are problems with this approach. Here are some.

Yes, relativistic N-body dynamics is still an open subject. But i
think my early recommendation still holds:

{BLOCKQUOTE
However, it is a good monograph maybe you would take as start point
for research on the topic of N-body dynamics.
}

> The "synchronization" of the initial conditions is arbitrary, but not
> irrelevant. To specify initial conditions, on needs to give an event (4
> coordinates) from the world line of each particle, and a 4-velocity
> tangent to the world line at each of these events.

Strictly one may give four quantities x_i^b and p_i^b for
specification of the initial dynamical state, since 4-velocity is a
_derived_ quantity follows from solving the first canonical equation
of motion.

The 4-velocity enters in the Lagrangian of EM or GR, but both are not
full N-body relativistic theories. E.g. Maxwell-Lorentz and geodesic
both are 1-body equations of motion on external fields (or metrics).

> Now, suppose I've
> got a set of world lines, obtained by a specific set of initial
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> needs to specify a synchronization convention. This is definitely more
> information that is justified, say, by the non-relativistic limit.

More of the same. The 4-velocity describes dynamical state only when
the _linear_ transformation {p_i^b = {m_i * v_i^b}} holds.

In general, the set (x_i^b, v_i^b) does not describe a full N-body
relativistic state.

> In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in
> this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have
> also eliminated a reason for using the Coulomb potential away from the
> non-relativistic regime. Recall that the Coulomb potential is obtained
> by solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge.

There exists a generalized confusion about this self-perpetuates on
relativistic literature during 20th century. Coulomb introduced its
potential in analogy with the Newtonian potential. I recall that
original Newton theory is an action-at-a-distance theory.

The concept of field was introduced years latter by Faraday and worked
by Maxwell. Einstein copied the concept of field to gravity (Einstein
often called to g_ab the gravitational field).

When solving for the electromagnetic field (Maxwell theory) one
obtains the Lienard-Wiechert (LW) potentials: PHI, A.

For a stationary charge {A = 0} and PHI reduces to a non-retarded
field-like potential with functional expression

PHI = PHI(r,t)

I did explicit the spacetime dependence of the potential but, of
course, the solution is stationary,

{PARTIAL PHI / PARTIAL t} = 0

Therefore "solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary
charge" gives a stationary LW potential.

The true Coulomb (non-field) potential is, however,

PHI = PHI(R(t))

which is a _very_ different functional expression.

The common confusion arises on non-rigorous literature when ignoring
the functional representation and writing only PHI. Then one PHI and
the other PHI look equal but they are two different functions (giving
different physics).

The authors of the monograph are more rigorous at this point. They
begin from the true Coulomb/Newton N-body potentials and on the
section 4.2.4 "The invariant potential" of the monograph (see also
online [4]) present a plausible relativistic generalization. The
functional dependence is now

PHI = PHI(RHO(TAU))

where both RHO and TAU are Lorentz invariant generalizations of R and
t.

It can be easily shown that full N-body relativistic potential

PHI = PHI(RHO(TAU))

reduces to the Coulomb or Newtonian N-body potentials when {c -->
INFINITY}. However, as discussed above the Lienard-Wiechert potentials
(either for electromagnetism or for gravitation) give an _incorrect_
non-relativistic limit.

Let me recall everything of this is well-known in molecular physics
and relativistic quantum chemistry communities. Theories like that of
the monograph are under active use on relativistic N-body dynamics. I
am saying nothing new if either it seems to me may be new to most
relativists or particle physicists.

The discussion of the limitations of General relativity follows in a
similar way. Take a simple time Schwarzschild component by commodity

g_00 = 1 + {2PHI / c^2}

Since by definition g_00 = g_00(r,t) then it follows that
gravitational PHI is a spacetime function

PHI = PHI(r,t)

But the Newton N-body potential for gravity is PHI = PHI(R(t)). This
is standard stuff.

All relativistic literature I know confound both potentials. Take for
instance textbooks on General Relativity. On some section or chapter
devoted to the "Newtonian limit of general relativity" they derive

a = {-GRAD PHI}

and since Newtonian gravity is

a = {-GRAD PHI}

textbooks conclude that General Relativity reduces to Newton gravity.
But that reduction is just apparent not real. The GR geodesic equation
of motion on that limit is really

a = {-GRAD PHI(r,t)}

whereas Newtonian gravity is

a = {-GRAD PHI(R(t))}

Already to zero order on c^2 General Relativity gives the wrong answer
for a N-body relativistic dynamics. One can do certain tricks for
studying certain dynamical regimes but one cannot consistently develop
a FULL N-body relativistic dynamics of bodies under gravity.

This inability of General Relativity is the reason for the
introduction of the new relativistic potential for gravity

PHI = PHI(RHO(TAU))

on the monograph. This does not mean General Relativity was useless,
simply it is not complete.

Like in the electromagnetic case it is easy to show that the new
theory (with the new potential) gives the right Newtonian equation

a = {-GRAD PHI(R(t))}

on the non-relativistic limit.

> In
> addition, there appears no way to introduce radiation losses into this
> Hamiltonian formalism, which is a well known physical effect (cf.
> cyclotron physics).

Radiation phenomena has been studied in high mathematical and physical
detail including derivation of generalized Maxwell equations and
application to atoms (the quantum version of theory of course). See,
for instance, "Zeeman effect for the relativistic bound state" on [5].

The introduction of radiation and others effects follows from using
minimal coupling on the generalized Hamiltonian K (see [4]),

{ {p_b * p^b} / 2m}  --> { { {p_b - eA_b} * {p^b - eA^b} } / 2m}

Now how to interpret this?

(i) If A^b denotes an external field, the Hamiltonian is rigorous on
8N but one recovers problems of the field theory.

(ii) If A^b does not denotes a field then no problems, but the
Hamiltonian is not rigorous on 8N because a nonlinear velocity
dependence enters on A^b for the many body situation.

As remarked in a previous message

{BLOCKQUOTE
The theory is not still completely general in my opinion.
}

Moreover the theory developed on the monograph does not solve
additional electrodynamical or gravitational/cosmological problems
such as Railgun explosions, Ampere forces on Hg, dark matter, the CC,
typing some few.

> Igor

[1] http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/08/relativistic-lagrangian-and-limitat
ions.html


[2] Phys. Rev. D 2001, 63, 127701.

[3] You can find on Poisson review several remarks of kind "It should
be clear that Equations (387) and (388) are valid only in a formal
sense,"

[4] http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/08/relativistic-lagrangian-and-limitat
ions_20.html


[5] J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 1995, 28, 3289.

========
I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
Igor Khavkine - 26 Nov 2007 19:49 GMT
> On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> relativistic theory. That is reason they go beyond (1) also. Details
> below.

You make the above objection here and several times later on in your
post. Unfortunately, this objection is entirely without basis.
I would have thought that it's fairly obvious how equations (1)
and (2) generalize when more than one particle are considered. In fact,
I even mentioned this after initially introducing these equations:

>> There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one
>> world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is
>> additive.

Let me be more explicit. Suppose we have N particles. Each one has its
own world-line embedded in a common space-time. These world lines are
each parametrized by a separate parameter, say their proper time, s_i
and the embedding coordinates of each are denoted by z_i, i=1,...,N. The
combined equations of motion for the field and the particles coupled to
it becomes

   del^2 phi(x) = sum_i int ds_i delta(x-z_i(s_i)),             (1')
   m z_i''(s_i) = - grad_perp phi(z_i(s_i)), i=1,...,N.         (2')

Again, as they stand, these equations are merely formal, since phi and
its gradients diverge at the world-lines. However, once the RHSs of (2')
are modified to render the forces on the particles finite, they become
completely and rigorously well defined. The solutions for phi(x) and
z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, analytically or even
numerically.

>> A great
>> review of this recent work can be found in an article by Eric Poisson
>> (2004, http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2004-6). Further, the journal
>> of Classical and Quantum Gravity had a special issue in 2005 dedicated
>> almost entirely to this problem (volume 22, issue 15,
>> http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0264-9381/22/15).

> And even for the simple case of one-body equations, the review is very
> difficult to accept.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> also odd just before the equation 3 Poisson says that retarded
> potential is the physically-relevant solution!).

A careful reading of the article will reveal answers to all of the above
points.

Does equation (3) violate causality?

Equations (3) decomposes the radiative potential (the one that actually
exerts a force on the particle) into a linear combination of advanced
and retarded potentials. The appearance of the advanced potential in the
determination of the force on the particle immediately raises questions
of causality violation. However, Poisson takes care of this objection
right in the introduction. Look at the text surrounding equation (14)
and figure 3. Equation (14) is the generalization of (3) to curves
space-times. The figure illustrates the domains of dependence of the
singular and radiative potentials at a point x near the world line. In
general, the singular part, depends on the world-line segment space-like
separated from x. The radiative part, on the other hand, depends on the
world-line segments both space-like and past time-like separated from x.
Note, however, that value and gradient of the radiative field used in
the equations of motion are only taken from points on the world-line
itself. This means that the domain of dependence of the radiative field
shrinks to just the expected causal past of the world-line up to the
given point.

Why is the retarded potential the physically relevant solution?

Unfortunately, Poisson's review article is not elementary. He presumes a
fair bit of familiarity with Green functions and other methods of
solution or properties of solutions of PDEs. In particular, one should
know that, given a fixed source distribution, the retarded potential
allows the construction of the solution to the wave equation satisfying
the boundary condition that the wave field vanishes in the infinite
past. On the other hand, the advanced solution allows the construction
of the solution to the same problem, but with the boundary condition
that the wave field vanishes in the infinite future. Since, physically,
we are interested in examining generic particle motion where we go from
little radiation in the past to much more radiation in the future, it is
the retarded potential that is of physical interest.

Is equation (3) derived from first principles?

Take a look at sections 5.5.1-4. He presents about four different
methods of deriving regulated particle equations of motion, all the same
equation in the end. The decomposition of the radiative force into
advanced and retarded components goes under the moniker
"Detweiler-Whiting axiom". The approach I personally find most
convincing is described as the "averaging method". The latter method
computes the forces on a spherical shell surrounding the point particle
and takes the radius of the shell to zero. The limit is finite and is
identified with the radiative force. This approach is closest to the
physical picture of a point particle as an idealization of a continuous
but highly peaked charge/mass distribution. Large portions of sections
4 and 5 of the article are devoted to calculations showing these two
methods to be equivalent.

>> For those who are curious, the approach described by Poisson consists
>> of generalizing the arguments used to obtain the ALD equation to curved
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> but the procedure Poisson follows is difficult to accept for us.

What are the limits of applicability of the point particle approximation?

Take a look at the end of section 5.1.6, immediately following the
paragraph containing equation (430). There, Poisson briefly discusses
the point particle idealization and gives two references where it is
discussed further. The more accessible one is

 Poisson, E.
 An introduction to the Lorentz-Dirac equation
 (gr-qc/9912045)

It gives a brief argument for the domain of validity of the
Lorentz-Dirac equation and its order-reduced (second order) modifiation.
Again, with more references.

> Just compare with the rigorous and elegant point of view taken by
> Fokker, Dirac, Wheeler, Feynman, Hoyle, Narlikar, and others. They
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the theory is limited. This turns our attention to other newer
> theories, e.g. that of the monograph I cited.

Elegance is in the eye of the beholder and is invoked the most when no
better selection criteria are available (like experimental data).
Personally, I think the particle-field dyanamics described by Poisson's
review article is very elegant. Fortunately, as I've mentioned
previously, the question of elegance should soon be irrelevant, provided
we get some good data from the gravitational wave astronomy experiments.

>> Now, let me come back to the monograph by Trump and Schieve.
>> Unfortunately, there are problems with [their] approach. Here are some.

>> The "synchronization" of the initial conditions is arbitrary, but not
>> irrelevant. To specify initial conditions, on needs to give an event (4
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> _derived_ quantity follows from solving the first canonical equation
> of motion.

Since there should be an algebraic relation between the momenta and the
velocities. Specifying one, should as good as specifying the other.

> In general, the set (x_i^b, v_i^b) does not describe a full N-body
> relativistic state.

However, judging from your comment above, what I just said does not
appear to work in this theory. In that case, I'm at a loss as how to
determine the state of an N-particle system at all. Usually, we measure
the position and velocity of each particle at some events on their world
lines. If that's not enough, the situation is even stranger than I
thought.

>> In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in
>> this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> potential in analogy with the Newtonian potential. I recall that
> original Newton theory is an action-at-a-distance theory.

[...snip rant about "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential...]

I'm not sure what brought on the snipped discussion. I was referring to
the functional form of the Coulomb potential, being 1/r, with r the
distance to the source. Electromagnetic field theory predicts
specifically that form for the electrostatic potential, as opposed to an
arbitrary function of r. In other cases, such as for nuclear forces or
for free charges in a superconductor, the Yukawa potential exp(-r)/r is
appropriate, again a prediction of the corresponding field theory.

As to the "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential, eliminating mathematical
mistakes, the right Coulomb potential is known by everyone, whether they
are relativistic quantum chemists or not. However, for different
underlying dynamical theories, one does not expect the potential to
agree. That accounts for the difference between what you call "right"
and "wrong". However, since they have different predictions, both
theories can't be right. Now, as far as I know, much of synchrotron
physics is based on Lienard-Wiechert potentials. The only way you can
call the dynamical theory that produced them wrong is by providing an
example where the different dynamical theory you described has better
agreement with experiment than the standard one.

>> In
>> addition, there appears no way to introduce radiation losses into this
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> [5] J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 1995, 28, 3289.

Hmm, the Zeeman effect is not a radiative effect, it is present even in
a static unform magnetic field. That paper's abstract does not claim
otherwise. I don't have full access it, so I cannot check whether
radiation is handled in the body of the paper.

Igor
juanREMOVE-THIS@canonicalscience.com - 03 Dec 2007 19:39 GMT
Igor Khavkine wrote { slrnfkkdqf.paf.igor.kh@corum.multiverse.ca } on Mon,
26 Nov 2007 19:49:45 +0000:

>> On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> generalize when more than one particle are considered. In fact, I even
> mentioned this after initially introducing these equations:

I show below how your "fairly obvious generalization" makes no sense for
the study of many-body relativistic effects.

I also illustrate how a N-body equation follows from "Classical
Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics" [1].

>>> There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one
>>> world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, analytically or even
> numerically.

One would begin by differentiating two problems, namely {ONE} and {MANY}:

{ONE
To get the one-body relativist equation of motion for a particle in a
'external' field generated by N-bodies
}

{MANY
To get the relativistic N-body equation of motion
}

Let me review what you are doing exactly. First, you are computing the
field generated by each particle and applying the superposition principle
to get (eq. 1') the total field. Next you compute the effect of that
total field on the one-body equation of motion (eq. 2') for particle i.

Well but that was just about the problem {ONE}; the trivial part everyone
knows!

Solving {MANY} is the hard part you are *ignoring*; the part *avoided* in
Poisson review.

If we want solve {MANY}, we would be a bit more serious. First, we would
begin by writing the non-relativistic N-body equation of motion. In
standard notation,

SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1,... N; 0)      (3)

with L being a 6N classical Liouvillian defined over the non-relativistic
Hamiltonian H. TAU is Newtonian time.

For solving problem {MANY}, we may generalize (3) to relativistic regimes
Igor Khavkine - 06 Dec 2007 18:37 GMT
> Igor Khavkine wrote { slrnfkkdqf.paf.igor.kh@corum.multiverse.ca } on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:49:45 +0000:

>>> But we know that simple modification does not provide us a full N-body
>>> relativistic theory. That is reason they go beyond (1) also. Details
>>> below.

>> You make the above objection here and several times later on in your
>> post. Unfortunately, this objection is entirely without basis. I would
>> have thought that it's fairly obvious how equations (1) and (2)
>> generalize when more than one particle are considered. [...]

>> Let me be more explicit. Suppose we have N particles. Each one has its
>> own world-line embedded in a common space-time. These world lines are
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> phi(x) and z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways,
>> analytically or even numerically.

> I show below how your "fairly obvious generalization" makes no sense for
> the study of many-body relativistic effects.

Your post appears truncated, but I don't have to read very much to see
what the root of the disagreement seems to be. You seem to have a
personal definition of what a "full N-body relativistic theory" is. Not
being familiar with it, I cannot possibly justify whether the
renormalized field theoretic approach fits that definition or not.

In the interest of clarity, let me specify what I would mean by a "full
N-body relativistic theory". It is a mathematical model that, given some
measurements of its dynamical variables, can predict all other
measurements in the future. The dynamical variables here are the scalar
field phi(x) on space-time and the world lines z_i(s_i) of the N
particles. The input measurements correspond to the determination of
initial conditions, say the values and derivatives of phi(x) on some
spatial hypersurface, as well as the intersections of the particle world
lines with the same hypersurface and the world lines tangents a those
points. Since the renormalized field-particle system is a well defined
system of second order coupled ODEs and PDEs, these initial conditions
are enough to obtain the solution for phi(x) and z_i(s_i) on the entire
space-time (barring the development of singularities in finite time).
This solution allows me to predict any measurement made on this system
at any time. Done, I've got a "full N-body relativistic theory"!

> Solving {MANY} is the hard part you are *ignoring*; the part *avoided* in
> Poisson review.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> with L being a 6N classical Liouvillian defined over the non-relativistic
> Hamiltonian H. TAU is Newtonian time.

I've already mentioned that the renormalized field-particle system has
an infinite number of degrees of freedom, with no way to fit it into a
6N dimensional parameter space. Sometimes the equations can be
simplified to decouple the particle world line equations from the field
equations, but that's not always possible.

BTW, if you are married to the Hamiltonian formalism when it comes to
writing down physical theories, I invite you to construct a Hamiltonian
model for the damped simple harmonic oscillator.

Igor
Chris H. Fleming - 07 Dec 2007 16:50 GMT
> > Igor Khavkine wrote { slrnfkkdqf.paf.igor...@corum.multiverse.ca } on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:49:45 +0000:
> >>> But we know that simple modification does not provide us a full N-body
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> writing down physical theories, I invite you to construct a Hamiltonian
> model for the damped simple harmonic oscillator.

Couple the one oscillator to a thermal bath of oscillators. A linear
spectral density function reproduces linear damping in the high cutoff
limit. You will also get a fluctuation dissipation relationship with
some thermal noise.

You can also submerge the oscillator in a fluid and will get linear
damping for the stationary solutions in the  low Reynolds number
limit.

There is in general no Hamiltonian for open system dynamics as there
shouldn't be.
Martin Ouwehand - 08 Dec 2007 20:01 GMT
Dans l'article <slrnflcmua.i8l.igor.kh@corum.multiverse.ca>,
Igor Khavkine <igor.kh@gmail.com> écrit:

] BTW, if you are married to the Hamiltonian formalism when it comes to
] writing down physical theories, I invite you to construct a Hamiltonian
] model for the damped simple harmonic oscillator.

   H = 1/2 p^2 exp(-t) + 1/2 q^2 exp(t)

gives:

   q' = p exp(-t)
   p' = -q exp(t)

hence

   q'' + q' + q = 0

--
 | ~~~~~~~~ Martin Ouwehand ~ Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ~ Lausanne
__|___________ Email/PGP: http://personnes.epfl.ch/martin.ouwehand ____________
Europeans are much more serious than  we are in America because they think that
a good place to discuss intellectual matters is a beer party   [R. P. Feynmann]
torre@cc.usu.edu - 07 Dec 2007 18:48 GMT
> Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot
> be solved exactly?

I just found this thread.  Solving the 2 body problem in GR
(numerically) is currently one of the biggest areas of research
in gravitational physics.

I wonder what the OP meant by "solved exactly"?

There are pretty good existence and uniqueness theorems for
the Einstein equations, so I expect the existence of a
solution is not in doubt.  It's just the solution is not going
to be expressible in any nice closed form. Indeed, the physics
of the problem is just too complicated to expect it to be
described by tractable analytic expressions. Of course,
similar  things can be said for almost any non-linear
mechanical system with more than 1 degree of freedom.

Igor Khavkine describes some of the ways of thinking about
"solved exactly". Another way to think about "solved exactly"
is in terms of "integrability". This concept is well
understood for Hamiltonian systems with a finite number of
degrees of freedom.  For the 2-body problem in GR you might
proceed as follows. (1) You would need to characterize all
initial data for the problem, thus delineating a subspace of
the GR phase space to consider. (2) On that subspace you would
want to exhibit infinitely many conserved quantities in
involution.  One could then perhaps characterize the "exact
solution" in terms of those conserved quantities as one does
in ordinary mechanics.

I don't think this can be done, though. First of all just
finding the initial data for the 2-body problem involves
solving a non-linear system of PDEs.  Furthermore, it seems
that non-linear PDEs in more than 2 independent variables are
rarely integrable (in the above sense), if ever.  So, It seems
likely that the Einstein equations restricted to the 2-body
problem are not integrable. And, even if they were, it may be
too tough to prove it because the initial value problem in GR
is pretty tough. For these reasons people tend to just solve
the thing on the computer.

But, again, no one doubts that a solution exists.

charlie torre
Juan R. - 08 Dec 2007 17:26 GMT
On Dec 7, 7:48 pm, to...@cc.usu.edu wrote:
> > Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot
> > be solved exactly?
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> But, again, no one doubts that a solution exists.

Unfortunatel you, Igor, Tom, and others begin with your initial
confusion between two related physical problems

{ONE
To get the one-body relativist equation of motion for a particle in an
'external' field generated by N-bodies}

{MANY
To get the relativistic N-body equation of motion}

Nobody doubts that General Relativity (as a field theory) gives a
solution to {ONE}. I have remarked this several times in the past.

But General Relativity does not give us a solution for the problem
{MANY}. In fact, General Relativity is not even defined in this case!

This failure of field theory and general relativity to give a many-
body theory is the start for *generalized* theories like that
discussed in the monograph Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics
[1].

I already apologized in the past by not presenting detailed
discussion. My experience says this is one advanced issue goes beyond
the standard arsenal of most physicists.

Since mistakes and bogus claims are being repeated forever in this
thread, I will present some more details now. I will not detail
everything but i wait nobody would repeat here the mistaken claim
field theory or general relativity give us full 2-body solutions
(General Relativity gives us only two coupled one-body equations). I
recommend anyone interested to go to standard literature and get the
rest.

I will begin start by writing a *standard* classical gravitational two-
body equation of motion

{PARTIAL SIGMA(1,2)  /  PARTIAL(1,2) TAU} = {-i L SIGMA(1,2)}

where L is defined over Hamiltonian K. Both gravitational K and TAU
are defined in [1]. If either are incomplete definitions. More general
definitions are found in related literature, including the quantum
version of the theory.

As in the standard non-relativistic case, SIGMA defines the classical
state for the 2-body relativistic gravitational system.

The equations of motion of general relativity can be derived as a
special case after doing a set of approximations on the two-body
equation of motion. For instance,

1) If dissipation is negligible then L reduces to the classical 8N
bracket

i L SIGMA(1,2) =[K, SIGMA(1,2)]

2) If there is no 'chaotic' regimes then we eliminate correlations
{GAMMA(1,2) --> 0} and approximate

SIGMA = {SIGMA(1) SIGMA(2)}

3) If the dynamical state is not 'thermal' then we apply the pure
state approximation

{SIGMA(1) SIGMA(2)} = {DELTA(1) DELTA(2)}

With DELTA being a 8 dimensional Dirac 'function'. Now DELTA(j)
defines dynamical state for body j.

Applying approximations (1), (2), and (3) to the full 2-body equation
gives the approximated

{PARTIAL {DELTA(1) DELTA(2)}  /  PARTIAL(1,2) TAU} = [K, {DELTA(1)
DELTA(2)}]

>From which we derive [#] an equivalent set of differential canonical
equations

{PARTIAL x(j)^b  /  PARTIAL TAU} = {PARTIAL K  /  PARTIAL p(j)_b}

{PARTIAL p(j)^b  /  PARTIAL TAU} = - {PARTIAL K  /  PARTIAL x(j)_b}

Just like in the non-relativistic case, we can directly solve the
above 2-body equation at once (computationally difficult needing of
sophisticated algorithms) or this set of coupled differential
equations (computationally more tractable with well-optimized
algorithms).

Obviously, those *derived* Hamiltonian equations for the system of two
classical bodies are only valid when approximations (1), (2) and (3)
hold. In the more general case one may solve the original 2-body
relativistic equation of motion.

Notice that Hamiltonian K (equation 1.20 on [1])

K = {p(j)^b p(j)_b}  /  2 m(j)}

can be rewritten like

K = {n^ab p(j)_a p(j)_b}  /  2 m(j)}

It is now easy to see that can be generalized to

K = {G^ab p(j)_a p(j)^b}  /  2 m(j)}

Still solving the Hamiltonian equations of motion using this
Hamiltonian K is beyond general relativity because two motives:

- TAU (a many body concept) is not defined in General Relativity.

- The metric components G^ab are many-body also. Take a look to the
potentials (eq. 1.25 on [1]) defined using RHO. The functional
expression is G^ab = G^ab(RHO(TAU)).

RHO being a four-distance (see section 4.2.4 on [1]).

Obviously, above 'metric' are beyond General Relativity (numerical or
not :-). In general relativity, the metrics are functions of spacetime
g^ab = g^ab(x^d)  = g^ab(t,x).

Therefore in our marvellous travel from {MANY} to {ONE} one would
apply another approximation: a field like approximation. This is today
a non-solved difficult problem [##]. I will just quote what would be
the final result

{PARTIAL x(j)^b  /  PARTIAL t} = {PARTIAL K  /  PARTIAL p(j)_b}

{PARTIAL p(j)^b  /  PARTIAL t} = - {PARTIAL K  /  PARTIAL x(j)_b}

with G^ab --> g^ab.

Now it is well-known that solving those Hamiltonian equations is
equivalent to solving the coupled geodesics equations of motion [2]
for the two bodies.

This is just about {ONE}. The easy part everyone knows. Writing and
solving a full two-body relativistic equation of motion are much more
demanding tasks.

General Relativity and the geodesic equation of motion are
approximations follow from a Classical Relativistic Many-Body
Dynamics.

That is the reason for existence of monographs like [1]. Would i
remember here its title?

"Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics"

> charlie torre

[1] Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics. Springer; 1999. Trump,
Matthew A; Schieve, William C.

[2]  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesics_as_Hamiltonian_flows

[#] I suppose that i do not need to detail this undergraduate topic
here.

[##] Precisely one of my current research programs is the derivation
of Lienard-Wiechert potentials from a many-body theory. I think I have
basically solved this problem. Ibegin from a many-body potential and
then get a Lienard-Wiechert potentials (both electrodynamical and
gravitational) after making a set of approximations. Approximations
correspond with the limits of validity of a Field or metric
description of interactions.

--
I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
Juan R. - 08 Dec 2007 20:01 GMT
On Nov 26, 8:49 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> generalize when more than one particle are considered. In fact, I even
> mentioned this after initially introducing these equations:

I show below how your "fairly obvious generalization" makes no sense
for
the study of many-body relativistic effects.

I also illustrate how a N-body equation follows from "Classical
Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics" [1].

>>> There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one
>>> world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, analytically or even
> numerically.

One would begin by differentiating two problems, namely {ONE} and
{MANY}:

{ONE
To get the one-body relativist equation of motion for a particle in a
'external' field generated by N-bodies }

{MANY
To get the relativistic N-body equation of motion }

Let me review what you are doing exactly. First, you are computing the
field generated by each particle and applying the superposition
principle
to get (eq. 1') the total field. Next you compute the effect of that
total
field on the one-body equation of motion (eq. 2') for particle i.

Well but that was just about the problem {ONE}; the trivial part
everyone
knows!

Solving {MANY} is the hard part you are *ignoring*; the part *avoided*
in
Poisson review.

If we want solve {MANY}, we would be a bit more serious. First, we
would
begin by writing the non-relativistic N-body equation of motion. In
standard notation,

SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1,... N; 0)      (3)

with L being a 6N classical Liouvillian defined over the non-
relativistic
Hamiltonian H. TAU is Newtonian time.

For solving problem {MANY}, we may generalize (3) to relativistic
regimes.

In a simple look we can see (1') and (2') are not generalizations of
(3).

This obligates us to turn to more general relativistic theories.
Journals
of physics are full with several proposals. The question is, what one?

Authors of "Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics" [1] argue that
Stückelberg theory is an adequate framework for solving {MANY}. The
corresponding relativistic N-body equation will be

SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1,... N; 0)       (4)

now L is a 8N classical Liouvillian defined over the relativistic
Hamiltonian K. And TAU is a relativistic N-body time. Of course, K and
TAU
cannot be derived from Field theory (or from General Relativity). Both
TAU
and K are many-body concepts defined and discussed on [1].

Field theory and General Relativity rely in a number of one-body
approximations, including

SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) --> {DELTA(1; TAU) ... DELTA(N; TAU)}     (5)

Both the Lorentz equation of motion (Maxwell electromagnetism) and the
geodesic equation of motion (General relativity) apply only when (5)
holds.

A characteristic example where approximation (5) does not hold are
chaotic
systems. There, long-range correlations between particles are the
rule.
There, Field theory and General Relativity do not give us the
equations of
motion. It is *not* a causality that senior author of [1] was [5]

{BLOCKQUOTE
regarded as one of the world experts in the field of relativistic
chaos. }

I would notice that senior author of [1] has done contributions to the
derivation of Hilbert/Einstein equations of General Relativity [7]
using
different fundamental techniques. It follows, Schieve is *not* saying
that
General Relativity was useless; Schieve is saying something different:
General Relativity is incomplete.

One interesting research question is next: What would be a
relativistic
classical equation of motion for {ONE} when (5) does not hold?

Field theory (and General Relativity) cannot give an answer. Authors
using
different proposed theories and semiphenomenological approaches will
give
you different answers.

I will simply say that Burakovsky and Horwitz recently [2] derived
one-
body quantum relativistic equation from the equation (4) of above,
using
the definitions [1] for relativistic Hamiltonian K and relativistic
TAU.
Authors have worked a number of classical expressions in other places.

But as I already remarked in a previous message I think this field of
relativistic physics is still open. Recent generalizations (see e.g.
generalized inflationary cosmology [6]) do *not* change my thoughts.

At least those authors do not to claim, in open forums, that an
elementary
modification of equation (2) would magically give us a full N- body
relativistic theory!

>> For instance, I find odd that Poisson just postulates eq. (3) without
>> deriving it from first principles; does not specify limits of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> A careful reading of the article will reveal answers to all of the above
> points.

Never doubt it. But an expertise reading reveals that answers are not
acceptable.

> Does equation (3) violate causality?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> shrinks to just the expected causal past of the world-line up to the
> given point.

Several corrections and comments are needed here.

i]
my original causality remark was about equation (3), not about
equation
(14). It is just (3) which enters on Dirac equation.

ii]
equation (14) is a generalization of (9).

iii]
Curved spacetime Green functions are not new (studied since early
60s). Do
not solve problems with field theoretic or metric theories.

iv]
the curved spacetime advanced potentials continue to depend on the
particle's history after the advanced time v (See text on figure 2).
Those
potentials continue to be unphysical as noted by Poisson,

{BLOCKQUOTE
The physically relevant solution to Equation (13) is obviously the
retarded potential a A_ret(x)
}

This rejection is introducing the same *inconsistency* that in the
flat
spacetime case. The advanced potentials are rejected at the wave
equation
level whereas are being accepted on the force equation.

These inconsistencies can be avoided, however. The curved spacetime
Green
functions are interpreted [3] in basis to a direct relativistic
interaction between particles. This view [3] is similar to that of [1]
where the fields were also avoided for consistency of the overall
theory.

v]
the extra H term on (14) corrects the high acausality associated to a
Green function without H. But adding H has not eliminated acausality
from
the theory. A simple look to Figure 3 reveals that total potential
continues involving signals from future.

> Why is the retarded potential the physically relevant solution?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> little radiation in the past to much more radiation in the future, it is
> the retarded potential that is of physical interest.

Nice writing, the problem is that I was not asking for a parroting of
the
field theoretic discourse. I explicitly asked for a fundamental and
consistent explanation of an observed fact.

By commodity, I will simply cite the conclusions pointed in a recent
Review of Modern Physics [3] about the field theoretic discourse:

{BLOCKQUOTE
Field theory does not offer any answer. It stops at providing a
scenario
consistent with causality. The choice of the retarded solution is
imposed
_ad hoc_ rather than deduced. }

> Is equation (3) derived from first principles?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and 5 of the article are devoted to calculations showing these two
> methods to be equivalent.

But those sections continue lacking any self-consistent derivation
from
first principles, which was the point.

One self-consistent derivation was given by Wheeler and Feynman in
basis
to previous work by Dirac. See [3] for a modern revision and extension
in
a cosmological framework.

> What are the limits of applicability of the point particle
> approximation?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Lorentz-Dirac equation and its order-reduced (second order) modifiation.
> Again, with more references.

Rohrlich has published a more recent paper [4] addressing that
specific
issue, where he derives a formal (his equation 6)

ma = {1 / {1 - D}} F_ext

Retaining terms up to first order on operator D, one gets

ma = {1 + D} F_ext

This linearization of his equation (6) is just the equation (9.8) in
Poisson preprint you cite for the special case

D == t_0 {d / dt}

Rohrlich (equation 6) is based in one _ad hoc_ assumption (see
equation 5
on [4]) which, is equivalent to assuming {D << 1}.

The assumption {D << 1} implies certain limits for both the size of
the
t_0 parameter and the strength of the external force F_ext.

The main difficulty is on that the _ad hoc_ assumption taken on [4]
violates the most basic principles of field theory. As a consequence,
Rohrlich equation 6 and the special case of Poisson (equation 9.8) do
also.

It seems, from your writings, that you think that Poisson has solved
more
or less the difficulties, presenting us a reliable one-body classical
equation of motion would be valid for all practical purposes.

Let me then reproduce that Rohrlich warns in the last part of [4]:

{BLOCKQUOTE
I want to emphasize that Eq. (6) is not meant as the definitive
equation
of motion for a classical charged particle; after all, the self-force
(2)
is only an approximation.
}

>> Their elegant theory is also free from internal contradictions have
>> plagued field theory during centuries. And all of us (fundamental
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Personally, I think the particle-field dyanamics described by Poisson's
> review article is very elegant.

It is worth that you decided to focus on the subjective part of my
message: elegance.

The crucial part of my message is when I said their theory lacks
internal
contradictions.

> Fortunately, as I've mentioned
> previously, the question of elegance should soon be irrelevant, provided
> we get some good data from the gravitational wave astronomy experiments.

That data will be interesting. Just to point that "good data" will not
magically turn Classical electrodynamics or General Relativity into a
completely general and consistent theory.

For instance, none of that data will transform your equations (1') and
(2') into a N-body equation looking like (4).

>>> In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in
>>> this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have
>>> also eliminated a reason for using the Coulomb potential away from the
>>> non-relativistic regime. Recall that the Coulomb potential is obtained
>>> by solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge.

> [...snip rant about "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> specifically that form for the electrostatic potential, as opposed to an
> arbitrary function of r.

I want to emphasize that you started this part of the discussion with
an
invalid criticism about scattering on Trump and Schieve monograph [1].

In my previous reply, I pointed some of the mistakes you were doing. I
can
see you have deleted the entire technical part of my message,
including
the equations and *functional* expression for the potentials. However,
you
continue making mistaken claims about the Coulomb interaction and the
electrostatic limit of field theory.

I will not repeat said in previous message. However, i will present a
resume:

- *Coulomb* potential --> 1/R

- Lienard-Wiechert potential --> 1/r_ret

- Electrostatic limit of Lienard-Wiechert potential --> 1/r

- Relativistic *Coulomb* potential --> 1/RHO

I have used different notations R, r_ret, r, and RHO for emphasizing
they
are both *mathematical* and *physically* different.

RHO is defined in [1]. It has been proved how RHO reduces to the R in
a
Coulomb potential in the non-relativistic limit. I think i cited one
J.
Phys. A: Math. Gen. paper from 1995 previously.

The expression for the Lienard-Wiechert potential and its
electrostatic
limit are available in virtually any textbook.

> In other cases, such as for nuclear forces or for free charges in a
> superconductor, the Yukawa potential exp(-r)/r is appropriate, again a
> prediction of the corresponding field theory.

One can derive Yukawa-like potentials without any appeal to field
theory,
if either we use an alternative naming for the resulting potential.

- Screened-Coulomb potential --> exp(-kR)/R

with k, sometimes called the the Debye or Fermi-Thomas wave vector,
measuring the strength of the damping factor.

And, like in the Coulomb case, this functional expression (note it is
using R instead r) is in the right shape for a N-body relativistic
theory.
I mean, you could take the Screened-Coulomb potential into equation
(4).

> As to the "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential, eliminating mathematical
> mistakes, the right Coulomb potential is known by everyone, whether they
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> example where the different dynamical theory you described has better
> agreement with experiment than the standard one.

You have decided to continue *calling* the Coulomb potential to the
wrong
expression, ignoring the physics, the mathematics, and the even the
history of the subject.

I would add a note on epistemology. The novel relativistic theories
will
be _by design_ forced to agree with known experimental cases for which
we
know both field theory and general relativity work fine. Do not worry
Igor, synchrotron physics is on the target...

As I said in a previous a sci.physics.research posting [8],

{BLOCKQUOTE
new proposed theories are obligated to give predictions compatible
with
the old theories in some specific limit. }

REFERENCES

[1]  Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics. Springer; 1999. Trump,
Matthew A; Schieve, William C.

[2]  Found. of Phys. 1995, 25(9), 1335.

[3]  Rev. Mod. Phys. 1995, 67(1), 113.

[4]  Phys. Rev. D 2001, 63, 127701.

[5]  http://order.ph.utexas.edu/research/glimpse.html

[6]  Gen. Rel. Grav. 1995 27(10), 1043.

[7]  Theoretical and Mathematical Physics 2007, 151(2), 700.

[8]  http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/spr/2007-11/msg0078202.html

--
I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
 
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