Exact solution of 2-body problem in GR?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Melroy - 23 Oct 2007 04:46 GMT Hi Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved exactly? If so can someone point me to it? Thanks
jacques - 25 Oct 2007 18:55 GMT > Hi > Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved > exactly? > If so can someone point me to it? > Thanks There is an exact (simple) solution of the n-bodies problem in GR for a set of n-extremal Reisner-Nordstrom Black holes. See ie "Space time and Geometry" (Sean M. Carroll) p259-261 for the solution. In introducing the negative mass in GR, Bondi studied the 2-bodies problem in GR including one of negative mass. ( Negative mass in GR , H. Bondi, Review of modern physic Vol 29 Nb 3 July 1957). The conclusion is not so clear, as a solution implies some special conditon at infinity, but the demo is interesting...
Igor Khavkine - 25 Oct 2007 18:55 GMT > Hi > Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved > exactly? > If so can someone point me to it? The answer is most likely No. The reason is simple. If you have a complicated system of ordinary or partial differential equations (and that's all that the 2-body problem in GR is), to show that it has an exact solution, you need only demonstrate one. On the other hand, to show that it doesn't have exact solutions, one has to be more ingenious.
The first step would be to specify precisely what you mean by "exact". Usually, "exact" means some kind of simple expression that can be written down on paper. Similar questions have been asked for hundreds of years. A representative example concerns the solutions of a fifth order polynomial equation. Instead of "exact", one asks for solutions expressible in terms of usual algebraic operations and radicals. The answer is (in general) negative and the proof gave birth to Galois theory in algebra. Similar questions have been asked about the evaluation of indefinite integrals and solutions of differential equations. In this context, "exact" now refers to expressions involving only algebraic operations and elementary functions (one could also generalize to a class called Liouville functions). Attempts to prove such (in)solvability for differential equations have given birth to differential Galois theory. I'm sure similar work has been done by now for some partial differential equations.
So, for any given system of differential equations, there may or may not be theorems about its solvability in terms of elementary (or a slightly more general class of functions), depending on its complexity. Also, as far as I'm aware, the set of people sufficiently familiar with the methods of differential Galois theory and with the general relativistic 2-body problem is extremely small. That's why I doubt that anyone has a definite answer about "exact" solvability of this problem.
Hope this helps. If the above answer is somewhat unsatisfactory, you'll have to refine your notion of "exact solution".
Igor
Juan R. - 28 Oct 2007 07:03 GMT > Hi > Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot be solved > exactly? > If so can someone point me to it? > Thanks I do not know of any specific proof for GR. I know for field/metric theories. By FIELD I mean some F_ab(r,t) and by METRIC some g_ab(r,t). Either being solutions of Maxwell or Hilbert/Einstein equations, respectively.
The current emphasis on alternative dynamical theories without fields has its root in the impossibility to generate a full N-body solution using fields (or metrics), as brilliantly stated in page 20 of [1]. The _intuitive_ idea of the problem with field N-body dynamics is as follow.
A body acts as source and generates a field (or curves spacetime in GR) whereas another body (the test one) feels the effect. The interaction is _asymmetric_ in time
B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2
This model is _ignoring_ the effect of the test body (B2) on the field/ metric. One could try with a combination like
B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1
But this model will not work in general.
The explanation is that the first computation gets the effect on B2 by isolated B1, which is an approximation. Then that approximated B2 is used in a new approximated computation (now ignoring the presence of B1) and gives a final approximated B1.
In general, we may write
B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'
B1' being different from B1 means that the system is not self- consistent. The model is not a real two-body model but two one-body model.
Of course, 2-body field/metric solutions can be obtained for certain dynamical regimes or under certain approximations (e.g. retaining terms only up to c^2 order).
In those special cases B1' = B1 and the system is self-consistent. But in the general case, there exists not N-body solution for field/metric theories.
Notice this is not just a problem of GR. It is a problem of Maxwell electrodynamics and quantum field theory also.
How to solve it?
Developing a full N-body relativistic solution. There are several alternatives under active research. A well-known theory has been applied to a range of N-body problems on relativistic molecular physics and quantum chemistry is shown in the monograph [1].
The N-body theory is based on symmetric relativistic potentials
B1 <--> B2
for _both_ relativistic electromagnetism and gravity. And goes beyond the limits of GR and Maxwell electrodynamics in the study of relativistic N-body systems.
The theory is not still completely general in my opinion. However, it is a good monograph maybe you would take as start point for research on the topic of N-body dynamics.
Above i tried to explain the limitation of GR in some intuitive manner. I have avoided a formal discussion because involves branches of physics and mathematics beyond usual practice.
For instance, for understanding the potentials used in [1], one may have got a good basis on the physical and mathematical differences between time-implicit (R(t)) and time-explicit (r,t) interactions.
GR and Maxwell electrodynamics only deal with latter type. The potentials on [1] are of the Lorentz invariant time-implicit class.
REFERENCES AND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
[1] Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics. Springer; 1999. Trump, Matthew A; Schieve, William C.
See also my post sci.physics.research post of Aug 21 titled "Relativistic Lagrangian and limitations of field theory"
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/browse_frm/thread/3f3851e073 c91de8#
Look for the "four limitation".
Tom Roberts - 31 Oct 2007 06:51 GMT > In general, we may write > B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1' > > B1' being different from B1 means that the system is not self- > consistent. The model is not a real two-body model but two one-body > model. Yes. Note, however, that this is just the first iteration of an iterative self-consistent computation (c.f. the Hartree-Fock method in QM, and other self-consistent field approximations in other areas).
> [...] > in the general case, there exists not N-body solution for field/metric > theories. This is NOT a proof of non-existence of a solution (which is what the original poster asked about). This is merely an observation that the first iteration of this approach is not exact. Note that there is, in general, no guarantee that this iterative approach will converge; I believe there is a proof that IF it converges then it converges to a valid solution of the original set of differential equations (there are additional mathematical caveats to this, but physical systems probably satisfy them). In practice, when the interactions are weak then it usually does converge; when interactions are not weak then convergence usually depends on how accurately one can guess the initial functions (e.g. if you start with a valid solution then it will converge, at least for linear systems, which GR is not).
> Notice this is not just a problem of GR. It is a problem of Maxwell > electrodynamics and quantum field theory also. Sure. This is a problem of all theories consisting of a set of coupled differential equations. The above iterative technique is used in many applications involving coupled differential equations....
> How to solve it? Solve the original set of coupled differential equations together. This is usually quite challenging (often the only viable approach is numerical integration). Note that this is the approach with which hundreds of closed-form solutions to the Einstein field equation have been found. Note also that we are essentially back where the original poster asked the question: under what circumstances is there a solution that can be written in closed form? -- I am not mathematician enough to even begin an answer to that.
Tom Roberts
Juan R. - 03 Nov 2007 16:55 GMT > > In general, we may write > > B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1' [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > iterative self-consistent computation (c.f. the Hartree-Fock method in > QM, and other self-consistent field approximations in other areas). You are assuming that the iteration will be self-consistent. Just from the section 1.6 of the monograph on relativistic dynamics I cited in a previous message:
{BLOCKQUOTE The most straightforward explanation of why eq. (1.32) is not a many- body Lagrangian is that it provides no self-consistent method of finding the values of A^{MU} at the localization of the particles for an arbitrary time. }
The no self-consistency of general relativity is similar, if either more complex because the gravitational interaction is nonlinear and spin-2, that is, g^{MU NU}.
They mean the iteration is not self-consistent in the _general_ case. Of course, they discuss two typical special cases where it is self- consistent:
(i) The c^2 approx. The system is self-consistent because up to second order you can do B1 = B1'
B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1
(ii) the infinite mass limit. In this case the effect of B2 over massive B1 is of order (1/mass) and B1 = B1'
B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1
But both are _special_ cases. The general case is
B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1'
> > [...] > > in the general case, there exists not N-body solution for field/metric > > theories. > > This is NOT a proof of non-existence of a solution (which is what the > original poster asked about). Like I have apologized in a previous message:
{BLOCKQUOTE Above i tried to explain the limitation of GR in some intuitive manner. I have avoided a formal discussion because involves branches of physics and mathematics beyond usual practice. }
I also pointed in a previous message the mathematical/physical basis for the PROOF. The PROOF that GR and Maxwell electrodynamics are not N- body theories relies on that both only deal with local time-explicit (r,t) interactions. Whereas the interactions on the theory cited are of the Lorentz invariant time-implicit class.
Anyone interested can go to the monograph and follow to specialized literature for details on the PROOF, some at level of mathematical physics.
> This is merely an observation that the > first iteration of this approach is not exact. Note that there is, in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > additional mathematical caveats to this, but physical systems probably > satisfy them). You are confounding lacking one analitical solution with the lack of solution. I will explain the difference between both in plain terms.
Take stationary N-body quantum mechanics as illustration. We know that the analitical solution for the N-body problem exists and we can write the solution formally. We can write both the N-body wavefunction and the N-body Hamiltonian. The solution exist but the problem is the computational difficulty. Then we use numerical methods like Hartree- Fock you cited above.
The lack of solution is a different issue. Lacking indicates that the theory (not our computational capability) is limited. When a theory is limited, we substitute it by a more general theory. The new theory contains a set of solutions are not available on the former theory. The monograph on relativistic N-body dynamics is clear:
{BLOCKQUOTE As mentioned above, relativistic field theory is esentially a one-body theory, in that it is incapable of describing the n-body system }
Of course, as remarked before, field/metric theory can give n-body solutions in some special cases (c^2 approx, infinite mass limit...).
> > How to solve it? > > Solve the original set of coupled differential equations together. This > is usually quite challenging (often the only viable approach is > numerical integration). But you are promoting a wrong solution. You are confounding again computational problems with theoretical problems. The first are solved by more resources or by better mathematics or algorithms. The others problems are only solved by developing a new theory.
As I said before the solution is the development of a new theory with genuine N-body solutions built-in. Let me remark again there exist several proposals on specialized literature [#] on relativistic N-body dynamics.
The cited monograph is devoted to one of best known theories. The monograph covers applications and also comparison with field/metric theories, see for instance "1.6 Comparison to field theory". Also interesting is the latter chapter "8 Conclusion and sugestions",
{BLOCKQUOTE Of course, the most interesting results derived from the many-body theory are for systems for which field theory is not capable of producing the equations of motion }
> Note that this is the approach with which > hundreds of closed-form solutions to the Einstein field equation have > been found. Those solutions you cite are well-known. They are not full N-body relativistic solutions. A clear limitation is because interactions are modelled by metrics g_ab = g_ab(r,t).
If you take a look to the monograph you can see 2-body gravitational interaction (eq. 6.1 and 6.10) is a functional expression with implicit time-dependence _cannot_ be mathematically reducible to some g_ab(r,t).
As remarked before the new theory is beyond GR, which cannot model the FULL relativistic 2-body motion.
> Tom Roberts [#] For instance, Horwitz/Piron/Reuse/Grelland theory is standard in relativistic molecular physics and quantum chemistry. The authors studied the quantum relativistic 2-body problem and showed new theory reduces to usual field-theory in the infinite mass limit.
Igor Khavkine - 08 Nov 2007 17:18 GMT > > > In general, we may write > > > B1 --> FIELD/METRIC --> B2 --> FIELD'/METRIC' --> B1' [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > } You are right in the saying that the equations of motion of one or several particles coupled to a field are inconsistent as usually written, which for the example of a massless scalar field is as follows:
del^2 phi(x) = int ds delta(x-z(s)), (1) m z''(s) = - grad_perp phi(z(s)), (2)
where del^2 is the D'Alambertian, phi(x) is a scalar field, z(s) is the particle world line parametrized by proper time s, and grad_perp corresponds to the space-time gradient projected into the subspace orthogonal to the world line. Because of a quirk of the usual way of coupling the scalar field to a particle, the factor m actually represents an "effective mass", which depends on phi(z(s)), but that's not too important at the moment. There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is additive.
The inconsistency comes from the fact that any solution to (1) gives a phi(x) that diverges on the particle's world line. Therefore the value, let alone the gradient, of phi(x) is not defined at z(s), which makes the RHS of (2) undefined. This has been known since before the time of Abraham and Lorentz, who were the first to suggest a resolution to problem.
Having looked at the monograph of Trump and Schieve, according to the authors, this problem has been one of the major motivations for work on alternative formulations of relativistic N-body dynamics. Their approach is decides to get rid of (1) and (2) completely, and start with something new. But more on that later.
However, one can also try to change (2) so that the RHS is well defined, while the rest of the equations is unmodified. The motivation is two fold: the divergence of phi(x) at the world line is due to the way the world line comes into the RHS of (1) (hence, removing this self-field may eliminate the divergence alltogether), and if phi(x) is produced by other means (distant particles, for example), then we know that the equation of motion for the particle is definitely (2).
The first modification of these equations of motion is due to Abraham, Lorentz and Dirac, who described a way to subtract the self-field contribution from the RHS of (2) (along with theoretical reasons for doing so), leaving behind a finite and well defined force. Their result was consistent with the well known and tested Larmor formula for the total radiated power from an accelerating charge. Unfortunately, the regime where the Abraham-Lorentz-Dirac equation becomes important in the dynamics of a moving charge, is not easily accessible experimentally. So, for a long time (and arguably still) the question of validity of the ALD equation has been largely academic.
Fortunately, this situation is rapidly changing. In recent years, the question of gravitational radiation of moving massive compact objects has come to the attention of gravitational wave astronomers (LIGO and LISA experiments). The theoretical predictions of the emitted wave forms can be compared to observed data, once the signal to noise ratio of the gravitational wave detectors gets high enough. Subsequently, there has been quite a bit of theoretical work on the subject. A great review of this recent work can be found in an article by Eric Poisson (2004, http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2004-6). Further, the journal of Classical and Quantum Gravity had a special issue in 2005 dedicated almost entirely to this problem (volume 22, issue 15, http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0264-9381/22/15).
For those who are curious, the approach described by Poisson consists of generalizing the arguments used to obtain the ALD equation to curved spaces and arbitrary fields, including the gravitational field. It also fixes the most unsavory feature of the ALD equation; it is converted to second order in time, as opposed to third order. Others have also generalized the approach to point particles with a little bit of internal structure (spinning particles, for instance).
The moral of this story is that yes, equations (1) and (2) as written are not consistent and hence cannot describe the motion of point particles coupled to fields. On the other hand, there is a well defined way of modifying the RHS of equation (2) such that the results agrees with all known observations and can produce predictions that can very soon be testable. This question of what the correct modification of equations (1) and (2) will soon no longer be academic.
Now, let me come back to the monograph by Trump and Schieve. They propose an alternative formulation of N-body dynamics, without fields and using ideas very similar to interaction potentials in non-relativistic Newtonian mechanics. In my understanding, it can be summarized as follows. For a system of N particles, take R^(4N) as the configuration space and throw in another copy of R^(4N) for canonically conjugate momenta, the result is an 8N-dimensional phase space. The configuration space is seen as an N-fold product of Minkowski space-times, each endowed with an appropriate metric. The configuration space is now also endowed with a metric, but this metric is now of the signature of N minuses and 3N plusses. A corresponding metric is induced on the space of canonical momenta. The dynamics are specified by giving a Hamiltonian function and imposing the canonical equations of motion. The Hamiltonian is required to be invariant under the Poincare group, as it acts on each copy of Minkowski space separately and simultaneously. There is an external time parameter, as in the usual formulation of Hamiltonian classical mechanics. Once an initial condition is specified, the dynamics yield a curve in the 8N-dimensional phase space. The curve can be first projected into the 4N-dimensional configuration space, and then represented as N curves in one copy of 4-dimensional Minkowski space. These N curves are interpreted as the world-lines of N interacting particles.
Unfortunately, there are problems with this approach. Here are some.
The "synchronization" of the initial conditions is arbitrary, but not irrelevant. To specify initial conditions, on needs to give an event (4 coordinates) from the world line of each particle, and a 4-velocity tangent to the world line at each of these events. Now, suppose I've got a set of world lines, obtained by a specific set of initial conditions. I can choose a different set of initial conditions (events and 4-velocities) consistent with the same set of world lines and plug them into the dynamical equations. Generically, the result of solving the canonical evolution equations with the second set of initial conditions will yield a different set of world lines! In other words, in this theory, a set of world lines is not enough to determine the state of N particles (the coresponding point in phase space), one also needs to specify a synchronization convention. This is definitely more information that is justified, say, by the non-relativistic limit.
The causal structure of one trajectory in N copies of Minkowski space-time is not the same as the causal structure of N trajectories in the same Minkowski space-time. The result is the appearance of so-called "exotic" world lines as possible solutions. These are world lines that fail to remain time-like at all times. And, in my opinion, it is not sufficient to invoke particle creation or annihilation to explain this away. The analogy with Feynman diagrams is false, since the lines in Feynman graphs are not particle trajectories.
In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have also eliminated a reason for using the Coulomb potential away from the non-relativistic regime. Recall that the Coulomb potential is obtained by solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge. In addition, there appears no way to introduce radiation losses into this Hamiltonian formalism, which is a well known physical effect (cf. cyclotron physics).
Lastly, an appendix in Trump and Schieve's book attempts to invalidate the result of the famous relativistic interaction no-go theorem due to Currie, Jordan, and Sudarshan (see Rev.Mod.Phys. v.35 p.350). Unfortunately, a careful reading of this appendix reveals that Trump and Schieve simply managed to get lost in derivatives and reparametrizations while interpreting the assumptions of the CJK paper. The argument given in this appendix has no bearing on the result of the CJK no-go theorem.
Igor
Juan R. - 20 Nov 2007 07:06 GMT On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> del^2 phi(x) = int ds delta(x-z(s)), (1) > m z''(s) = - grad_perp phi(z(s)), (2)
> Having looked at the monograph of Trump and Schieve, according to the > authors, this problem has been one of the major motivations for work on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, one can also try to change (2) so that the RHS is well > defined, while the rest of the equations is unmodified. But we know that simple modification does not provide us a full N-body relativistic theory. That is reason they go beyond (1) also. Details below.
> The first modification of these equations of motion is due to Abraham, > Lorentz and Dirac, who described a way to subtract the self-field > contribution from the RHS of (2) (along with theoretical reasons for > doing so), leaving behind a finite and well defined force. Their result > was consistent with the well known and tested Larmor formula for the > total radiated power from an accelerating charge. Yes, Dirac showed difference {A_self^adv - A_self^ret} remains finite even for a point-like electron and gives us a generalized equation of motion. You may also know that Fokker, Wheeler, Feynman, and others showed how Dirac generalized equation follows from a new theory (different from field theory).
It is well-known that using a Fokker action one can get the extra terms of the equation of motion (people cannot read the monograph can see online the terms [1]). This is an important advance over the traditional field theory but still one cannot get a 2-body equation of motion from Fokker-like actions.
That is reason we are developing more advanced relativistic theories. For instance, the new theory on the monograph cited can be used for finding genuine 2-body relativistic solutions. In integral form,
SIGMA(1, 2; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1, 2; 0)
with L being a 8N classical Liouvillian defined over the Hamiltonian K (see online [4] for K expression).
> A great > review of this recent work can be found in an article by Eric Poisson > (2004, http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2004-6). Further, the journal > of Classical and Quantum Gravity had a special issue in 2005 dedicated > almost entirely to this problem (volume 22, issue 15, > http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0264-9381/22/15). But i do not see any full N-body relativistic dynamics there. Do you find something minimally similar to
SIGMA(1, 2; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1, 2; 0)?
Since the Poisson review you cite is available online I will discuss it. The theory reviewed on it is not about full N-body relativistic dynamics. E.g. section 5 "Motion of Point Particles" only contains a bunch of simple (even trivial!) one-body classical equations of motion in 'external' fields (or metrics). That kind of limited theory is of no real help for us (fundamental theoreticians).
And even for the simple case of one-body equations, the review is very difficult to accept.
For instance, I find odd that Poisson just postulates eq. (3) without deriving it from first principles; does not specify limits of applicability; and does not remark in any part that eq. (3) violates causality implicit on the field theoretic framework (if either it is also odd just before the equation 3 Poisson says that retarded potential is the physically-relevant solution!).
> For those who are curious, the approach described by Poisson consists > of generalizing the arguments used to obtain the ALD equation to curved > spaces and arbitrary fields, including the gravitational field. It also > fixes the most unsavory feature of the ALD equation; it is converted to > second order in time, as opposed to third order. It is true that Poisson says:
{BLOCKQUOTE I have reduced the order of the differential equation }
but the procedure Poisson follows is difficult to accept for us.
Poisson starts from a field theoretic action, next adds extra postulates like (3) in some _ad hoc_ way and then derives equations of motion are of third order. E.g. see equations (427), (428), (430).
After deriving eqs. (427), (428), (430) from field theory (plus the extra postulates/assumptions), Poisson remark their known unphysical behavior. It is then when Poisson just introduces another _ad hoc_ assumption leading him to substitute
{DOT a} --> {{DOT f} OVER m}
This _ad hoc_ substitution gives 'well-behaved' final equations (431) and (432). I recall both equations being different from the _initial unphysical_ equations derived from the field theoretic action.
I would remark that Poisson only discusses:
(i) How the one-body _formal_ [3] equation of motion would be. He avoids any discussion of the generic N-body equation.
(ii) What _extra_ assumptions/postulates are needed to force the equation to behave correctly. No derivation of final equations from first principles and no rigorous justification of the final equations on a field (or metric) theoretical framework.
Rohrlich also followed a similar approach [2]. He begins from a field theoretic action, derives an unphysical equation, and then corrects it by invoking _ad hoc_ approximated assumptions based in phenomenology.
Just compare with the rigorous and elegant point of view taken by Fokker, Dirac, Wheeler, Feynman, Hoyle, Narlikar, and others. They start beyond field theory, proposing a new action, and next derive the general 1-body equation of motion from it (including the terms cannot obtained from the field theoretic action). No need for the _ad hoc_ assumptions or heuristic arguments used in field theory.
Their elegant theory is also free from internal contradictions have plagued field theory during centuries. And all of us (fundamental theoreticians) recognize that was an advance. But as remarked before the theory is limited. This turns our attention to other newer theories, e.g. that of the monograph I cited.
> Now, let me come back to the monograph by Trump and Schieve. They > propose an alternative formulation of N-body dynamics, without fields [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > configuration space and throw in another copy of R^(4N) for canonically > conjugate momenta, the result is an 8N-dimensional phase space. Right. Being 4N on the quantum formulation.
> Unfortunately, there are problems with this approach. Here are some. Yes, relativistic N-body dynamics is still an open subject. But i think my early recommendation still holds:
{BLOCKQUOTE However, it is a good monograph maybe you would take as start point for research on the topic of N-body dynamics. }
> The "synchronization" of the initial conditions is arbitrary, but not > irrelevant. To specify initial conditions, on needs to give an event (4 > coordinates) from the world line of each particle, and a 4-velocity > tangent to the world line at each of these events. Strictly one may give four quantities x_i^b and p_i^b for specification of the initial dynamical state, since 4-velocity is a _derived_ quantity follows from solving the first canonical equation of motion.
The 4-velocity enters in the Lagrangian of EM or GR, but both are not full N-body relativistic theories. E.g. Maxwell-Lorentz and geodesic both are 1-body equations of motion on external fields (or metrics).
> Now, suppose I've > got a set of world lines, obtained by a specific set of initial [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > needs to specify a synchronization convention. This is definitely more > information that is justified, say, by the non-relativistic limit. More of the same. The 4-velocity describes dynamical state only when the _linear_ transformation {p_i^b = {m_i * v_i^b}} holds.
In general, the set (x_i^b, v_i^b) does not describe a full N-body relativistic state.
> In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in > this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have > also eliminated a reason for using the Coulomb potential away from the > non-relativistic regime. Recall that the Coulomb potential is obtained > by solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge. There exists a generalized confusion about this self-perpetuates on relativistic literature during 20th century. Coulomb introduced its potential in analogy with the Newtonian potential. I recall that original Newton theory is an action-at-a-distance theory.
The concept of field was introduced years latter by Faraday and worked by Maxwell. Einstein copied the concept of field to gravity (Einstein often called to g_ab the gravitational field).
When solving for the electromagnetic field (Maxwell theory) one obtains the Lienard-Wiechert (LW) potentials: PHI, A.
For a stationary charge {A = 0} and PHI reduces to a non-retarded field-like potential with functional expression
PHI = PHI(r,t)
I did explicit the spacetime dependence of the potential but, of course, the solution is stationary,
{PARTIAL PHI / PARTIAL t} = 0
Therefore "solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge" gives a stationary LW potential.
The true Coulomb (non-field) potential is, however,
PHI = PHI(R(t))
which is a _very_ different functional expression.
The common confusion arises on non-rigorous literature when ignoring the functional representation and writing only PHI. Then one PHI and the other PHI look equal but they are two different functions (giving different physics).
The authors of the monograph are more rigorous at this point. They begin from the true Coulomb/Newton N-body potentials and on the section 4.2.4 "The invariant potential" of the monograph (see also online [4]) present a plausible relativistic generalization. The functional dependence is now
PHI = PHI(RHO(TAU))
where both RHO and TAU are Lorentz invariant generalizations of R and t.
It can be easily shown that full N-body relativistic potential
PHI = PHI(RHO(TAU))
reduces to the Coulomb or Newtonian N-body potentials when {c --> INFINITY}. However, as discussed above the Lienard-Wiechert potentials (either for electromagnetism or for gravitation) give an _incorrect_ non-relativistic limit.
Let me recall everything of this is well-known in molecular physics and relativistic quantum chemistry communities. Theories like that of the monograph are under active use on relativistic N-body dynamics. I am saying nothing new if either it seems to me may be new to most relativists or particle physicists.
The discussion of the limitations of General relativity follows in a similar way. Take a simple time Schwarzschild component by commodity
g_00 = 1 + {2PHI / c^2}
Since by definition g_00 = g_00(r,t) then it follows that gravitational PHI is a spacetime function
PHI = PHI(r,t)
But the Newton N-body potential for gravity is PHI = PHI(R(t)). This is standard stuff.
All relativistic literature I know confound both potentials. Take for instance textbooks on General Relativity. On some section or chapter devoted to the "Newtonian limit of general relativity" they derive
a = {-GRAD PHI}
and since Newtonian gravity is
a = {-GRAD PHI}
textbooks conclude that General Relativity reduces to Newton gravity. But that reduction is just apparent not real. The GR geodesic equation of motion on that limit is really
a = {-GRAD PHI(r,t)}
whereas Newtonian gravity is
a = {-GRAD PHI(R(t))}
Already to zero order on c^2 General Relativity gives the wrong answer for a N-body relativistic dynamics. One can do certain tricks for studying certain dynamical regimes but one cannot consistently develop a FULL N-body relativistic dynamics of bodies under gravity.
This inability of General Relativity is the reason for the introduction of the new relativistic potential for gravity
PHI = PHI(RHO(TAU))
on the monograph. This does not mean General Relativity was useless, simply it is not complete.
Like in the electromagnetic case it is easy to show that the new theory (with the new potential) gives the right Newtonian equation
a = {-GRAD PHI(R(t))}
on the non-relativistic limit.
> In > addition, there appears no way to introduce radiation losses into this > Hamiltonian formalism, which is a well known physical effect (cf. > cyclotron physics). Radiation phenomena has been studied in high mathematical and physical detail including derivation of generalized Maxwell equations and application to atoms (the quantum version of theory of course). See, for instance, "Zeeman effect for the relativistic bound state" on [5].
The introduction of radiation and others effects follows from using minimal coupling on the generalized Hamiltonian K (see [4]),
{ {p_b * p^b} / 2m} --> { { {p_b - eA_b} * {p^b - eA^b} } / 2m}
Now how to interpret this?
(i) If A^b denotes an external field, the Hamiltonian is rigorous on 8N but one recovers problems of the field theory.
(ii) If A^b does not denotes a field then no problems, but the Hamiltonian is not rigorous on 8N because a nonlinear velocity dependence enters on A^b for the many body situation.
As remarked in a previous message
{BLOCKQUOTE The theory is not still completely general in my opinion. }
Moreover the theory developed on the monograph does not solve additional electrodynamical or gravitational/cosmological problems such as Railgun explosions, Ampere forces on Hg, dark matter, the CC, typing some few.
> Igor [1] http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/08/relativistic-lagrangian-and-limitat ions.html
[2] Phys. Rev. D 2001, 63, 127701.
[3] You can find on Poisson review several remarks of kind "It should be clear that Equations (387) and (388) are valid only in a formal sense,"
[4] http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/08/relativistic-lagrangian-and-limitat ions_20.html
[5] J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 1995, 28, 3289.
======== I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
Igor Khavkine - 26 Nov 2007 19:49 GMT > On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > relativistic theory. That is reason they go beyond (1) also. Details > below. You make the above objection here and several times later on in your post. Unfortunately, this objection is entirely without basis. I would have thought that it's fairly obvious how equations (1) and (2) generalize when more than one particle are considered. In fact, I even mentioned this after initially introducing these equations:
>> There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one >> world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is >> additive. Let me be more explicit. Suppose we have N particles. Each one has its own world-line embedded in a common space-time. These world lines are each parametrized by a separate parameter, say their proper time, s_i and the embedding coordinates of each are denoted by z_i, i=1,...,N. The combined equations of motion for the field and the particles coupled to it becomes
del^2 phi(x) = sum_i int ds_i delta(x-z_i(s_i)), (1') m z_i''(s_i) = - grad_perp phi(z_i(s_i)), i=1,...,N. (2')
Again, as they stand, these equations are merely formal, since phi and its gradients diverge at the world-lines. However, once the RHSs of (2') are modified to render the forces on the particles finite, they become completely and rigorously well defined. The solutions for phi(x) and z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, analytically or even numerically.
>> A great >> review of this recent work can be found in an article by Eric Poisson >> (2004, http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2004-6). Further, the journal >> of Classical and Quantum Gravity had a special issue in 2005 dedicated >> almost entirely to this problem (volume 22, issue 15, >> http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0264-9381/22/15).
> And even for the simple case of one-body equations, the review is very > difficult to accept. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > also odd just before the equation 3 Poisson says that retarded > potential is the physically-relevant solution!). A careful reading of the article will reveal answers to all of the above points.
Does equation (3) violate causality?
Equations (3) decomposes the radiative potential (the one that actually exerts a force on the particle) into a linear combination of advanced and retarded potentials. The appearance of the advanced potential in the determination of the force on the particle immediately raises questions of causality violation. However, Poisson takes care of this objection right in the introduction. Look at the text surrounding equation (14) and figure 3. Equation (14) is the generalization of (3) to curves space-times. The figure illustrates the domains of dependence of the singular and radiative potentials at a point x near the world line. In general, the singular part, depends on the world-line segment space-like separated from x. The radiative part, on the other hand, depends on the world-line segments both space-like and past time-like separated from x. Note, however, that value and gradient of the radiative field used in the equations of motion are only taken from points on the world-line itself. This means that the domain of dependence of the radiative field shrinks to just the expected causal past of the world-line up to the given point.
Why is the retarded potential the physically relevant solution?
Unfortunately, Poisson's review article is not elementary. He presumes a fair bit of familiarity with Green functions and other methods of solution or properties of solutions of PDEs. In particular, one should know that, given a fixed source distribution, the retarded potential allows the construction of the solution to the wave equation satisfying the boundary condition that the wave field vanishes in the infinite past. On the other hand, the advanced solution allows the construction of the solution to the same problem, but with the boundary condition that the wave field vanishes in the infinite future. Since, physically, we are interested in examining generic particle motion where we go from little radiation in the past to much more radiation in the future, it is the retarded potential that is of physical interest.
Is equation (3) derived from first principles?
Take a look at sections 5.5.1-4. He presents about four different methods of deriving regulated particle equations of motion, all the same equation in the end. The decomposition of the radiative force into advanced and retarded components goes under the moniker "Detweiler-Whiting axiom". The approach I personally find most convincing is described as the "averaging method". The latter method computes the forces on a spherical shell surrounding the point particle and takes the radius of the shell to zero. The limit is finite and is identified with the radiative force. This approach is closest to the physical picture of a point particle as an idealization of a continuous but highly peaked charge/mass distribution. Large portions of sections 4 and 5 of the article are devoted to calculations showing these two methods to be equivalent.
>> For those who are curious, the approach described by Poisson consists >> of generalizing the arguments used to obtain the ALD equation to curved [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > but the procedure Poisson follows is difficult to accept for us. What are the limits of applicability of the point particle approximation?
Take a look at the end of section 5.1.6, immediately following the paragraph containing equation (430). There, Poisson briefly discusses the point particle idealization and gives two references where it is discussed further. The more accessible one is
Poisson, E. An introduction to the Lorentz-Dirac equation (gr-qc/9912045)
It gives a brief argument for the domain of validity of the Lorentz-Dirac equation and its order-reduced (second order) modifiation. Again, with more references.
> Just compare with the rigorous and elegant point of view taken by > Fokker, Dirac, Wheeler, Feynman, Hoyle, Narlikar, and others. They [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the theory is limited. This turns our attention to other newer > theories, e.g. that of the monograph I cited. Elegance is in the eye of the beholder and is invoked the most when no better selection criteria are available (like experimental data). Personally, I think the particle-field dyanamics described by Poisson's review article is very elegant. Fortunately, as I've mentioned previously, the question of elegance should soon be irrelevant, provided we get some good data from the gravitational wave astronomy experiments.
>> Now, let me come back to the monograph by Trump and Schieve. >> Unfortunately, there are problems with [their] approach. Here are some.
>> The "synchronization" of the initial conditions is arbitrary, but not >> irrelevant. To specify initial conditions, on needs to give an event (4 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > _derived_ quantity follows from solving the first canonical equation > of motion. Since there should be an algebraic relation between the momenta and the velocities. Specifying one, should as good as specifying the other.
> In general, the set (x_i^b, v_i^b) does not describe a full N-body > relativistic state. However, judging from your comment above, what I just said does not appear to work in this theory. In that case, I'm at a loss as how to determine the state of an N-particle system at all. Usually, we measure the position and velocity of each particle at some events on their world lines. If that's not enough, the situation is even stranger than I thought.
>> In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in >> this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > potential in analogy with the Newtonian potential. I recall that > original Newton theory is an action-at-a-distance theory. [...snip rant about "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential...]
I'm not sure what brought on the snipped discussion. I was referring to the functional form of the Coulomb potential, being 1/r, with r the distance to the source. Electromagnetic field theory predicts specifically that form for the electrostatic potential, as opposed to an arbitrary function of r. In other cases, such as for nuclear forces or for free charges in a superconductor, the Yukawa potential exp(-r)/r is appropriate, again a prediction of the corresponding field theory.
As to the "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential, eliminating mathematical mistakes, the right Coulomb potential is known by everyone, whether they are relativistic quantum chemists or not. However, for different underlying dynamical theories, one does not expect the potential to agree. That accounts for the difference between what you call "right" and "wrong". However, since they have different predictions, both theories can't be right. Now, as far as I know, much of synchrotron physics is based on Lienard-Wiechert potentials. The only way you can call the dynamical theory that produced them wrong is by providing an example where the different dynamical theory you described has better agreement with experiment than the standard one.
>> In >> addition, there appears no way to introduce radiation losses into this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > [5] J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 1995, 28, 3289. Hmm, the Zeeman effect is not a radiative effect, it is present even in a static unform magnetic field. That paper's abstract does not claim otherwise. I don't have full access it, so I cannot check whether radiation is handled in the body of the paper.
Igor
juanREMOVE-THIS@canonicalscience.com - 03 Dec 2007 19:39 GMT Igor Khavkine wrote { slrnfkkdqf.paf.igor.kh@corum.multiverse.ca } on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:49:45 +0000:
>> On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > generalize when more than one particle are considered. In fact, I even > mentioned this after initially introducing these equations: I show below how your "fairly obvious generalization" makes no sense for the study of many-body relativistic effects.
I also illustrate how a N-body equation follows from "Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics" [1].
>>> There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one >>> world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, analytically or even > numerically. One would begin by differentiating two problems, namely {ONE} and {MANY}:
{ONE To get the one-body relativist equation of motion for a particle in a 'external' field generated by N-bodies }
{MANY To get the relativistic N-body equation of motion }
Let me review what you are doing exactly. First, you are computing the field generated by each particle and applying the superposition principle to get (eq. 1') the total field. Next you compute the effect of that total field on the one-body equation of motion (eq. 2') for particle i.
Well but that was just about the problem {ONE}; the trivial part everyone knows!
Solving {MANY} is the hard part you are *ignoring*; the part *avoided* in Poisson review.
If we want solve {MANY}, we would be a bit more serious. First, we would begin by writing the non-relativistic N-body equation of motion. In standard notation,
SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1,... N; 0) (3)
with L being a 6N classical Liouvillian defined over the non-relativistic Hamiltonian H. TAU is Newtonian time.
For solving problem {MANY}, we may generalize (3) to relativistic regimes
Igor Khavkine - 06 Dec 2007 18:37 GMT > Igor Khavkine wrote { slrnfkkdqf.paf.igor.kh@corum.multiverse.ca } on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:49:45 +0000:
>>> But we know that simple modification does not provide us a full N-body >>> relativistic theory. That is reason they go beyond (1) also. Details >>> below.
>> You make the above objection here and several times later on in your >> post. Unfortunately, this objection is entirely without basis. I would >> have thought that it's fairly obvious how equations (1) and (2) >> generalize when more than one particle are considered. [...]
>> Let me be more explicit. Suppose we have N particles. Each one has its >> own world-line embedded in a common space-time. These world lines are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> phi(x) and z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, >> analytically or even numerically.
> I show below how your "fairly obvious generalization" makes no sense for > the study of many-body relativistic effects. Your post appears truncated, but I don't have to read very much to see what the root of the disagreement seems to be. You seem to have a personal definition of what a "full N-body relativistic theory" is. Not being familiar with it, I cannot possibly justify whether the renormalized field theoretic approach fits that definition or not.
In the interest of clarity, let me specify what I would mean by a "full N-body relativistic theory". It is a mathematical model that, given some measurements of its dynamical variables, can predict all other measurements in the future. The dynamical variables here are the scalar field phi(x) on space-time and the world lines z_i(s_i) of the N particles. The input measurements correspond to the determination of initial conditions, say the values and derivatives of phi(x) on some spatial hypersurface, as well as the intersections of the particle world lines with the same hypersurface and the world lines tangents a those points. Since the renormalized field-particle system is a well defined system of second order coupled ODEs and PDEs, these initial conditions are enough to obtain the solution for phi(x) and z_i(s_i) on the entire space-time (barring the development of singularities in finite time). This solution allows me to predict any measurement made on this system at any time. Done, I've got a "full N-body relativistic theory"!
> Solving {MANY} is the hard part you are *ignoring*; the part *avoided* in > Poisson review. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with L being a 6N classical Liouvillian defined over the non-relativistic > Hamiltonian H. TAU is Newtonian time. I've already mentioned that the renormalized field-particle system has an infinite number of degrees of freedom, with no way to fit it into a 6N dimensional parameter space. Sometimes the equations can be simplified to decouple the particle world line equations from the field equations, but that's not always possible.
BTW, if you are married to the Hamiltonian formalism when it comes to writing down physical theories, I invite you to construct a Hamiltonian model for the damped simple harmonic oscillator.
Igor
Chris H. Fleming - 07 Dec 2007 16:50 GMT > > Igor Khavkine wrote { slrnfkkdqf.paf.igor...@corum.multiverse.ca } on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:49:45 +0000: > >>> But we know that simple modification does not provide us a full N-body [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > writing down physical theories, I invite you to construct a Hamiltonian > model for the damped simple harmonic oscillator. Couple the one oscillator to a thermal bath of oscillators. A linear spectral density function reproduces linear damping in the high cutoff limit. You will also get a fluctuation dissipation relationship with some thermal noise.
You can also submerge the oscillator in a fluid and will get linear damping for the stationary solutions in the low Reynolds number limit.
There is in general no Hamiltonian for open system dynamics as there shouldn't be.
Martin Ouwehand - 08 Dec 2007 20:01 GMT Dans l'article <slrnflcmua.i8l.igor.kh@corum.multiverse.ca>, Igor Khavkine <igor.kh@gmail.com> écrit:
] BTW, if you are married to the Hamiltonian formalism when it comes to ] writing down physical theories, I invite you to construct a Hamiltonian ] model for the damped simple harmonic oscillator.
H = 1/2 p^2 exp(-t) + 1/2 q^2 exp(t)
gives:
q' = p exp(-t) p' = -q exp(t)
hence
q'' + q' + q = 0
-- | ~~~~~~~~ Martin Ouwehand ~ Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ~ Lausanne __|___________ Email/PGP: http://personnes.epfl.ch/martin.ouwehand ____________ Europeans are much more serious than we are in America because they think that a good place to discuss intellectual matters is a beer party [R. P. Feynmann]
torre@cc.usu.edu - 07 Dec 2007 18:48 GMT > Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot > be solved exactly? I just found this thread. Solving the 2 body problem in GR (numerically) is currently one of the biggest areas of research in gravitational physics.
I wonder what the OP meant by "solved exactly"?
There are pretty good existence and uniqueness theorems for the Einstein equations, so I expect the existence of a solution is not in doubt. It's just the solution is not going to be expressible in any nice closed form. Indeed, the physics of the problem is just too complicated to expect it to be described by tractable analytic expressions. Of course, similar things can be said for almost any non-linear mechanical system with more than 1 degree of freedom.
Igor Khavkine describes some of the ways of thinking about "solved exactly". Another way to think about "solved exactly" is in terms of "integrability". This concept is well understood for Hamiltonian systems with a finite number of degrees of freedom. For the 2-body problem in GR you might proceed as follows. (1) You would need to characterize all initial data for the problem, thus delineating a subspace of the GR phase space to consider. (2) On that subspace you would want to exhibit infinitely many conserved quantities in involution. One could then perhaps characterize the "exact solution" in terms of those conserved quantities as one does in ordinary mechanics.
I don't think this can be done, though. First of all just finding the initial data for the 2-body problem involves solving a non-linear system of PDEs. Furthermore, it seems that non-linear PDEs in more than 2 independent variables are rarely integrable (in the above sense), if ever. So, It seems likely that the Einstein equations restricted to the 2-body problem are not integrable. And, even if they were, it may be too tough to prove it because the initial value problem in GR is pretty tough. For these reasons people tend to just solve the thing on the computer.
But, again, no one doubts that a solution exists.
charlie torre
Juan R. - 08 Dec 2007 17:26 GMT On Dec 7, 7:48 pm, to...@cc.usu.edu wrote:
> > Is there a formal proof that the 2-body problem in GR cannot > > be solved exactly? [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > But, again, no one doubts that a solution exists. Unfortunatel you, Igor, Tom, and others begin with your initial confusion between two related physical problems
{ONE To get the one-body relativist equation of motion for a particle in an 'external' field generated by N-bodies}
{MANY To get the relativistic N-body equation of motion}
Nobody doubts that General Relativity (as a field theory) gives a solution to {ONE}. I have remarked this several times in the past.
But General Relativity does not give us a solution for the problem {MANY}. In fact, General Relativity is not even defined in this case!
This failure of field theory and general relativity to give a many- body theory is the start for *generalized* theories like that discussed in the monograph Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics [1].
I already apologized in the past by not presenting detailed discussion. My experience says this is one advanced issue goes beyond the standard arsenal of most physicists.
Since mistakes and bogus claims are being repeated forever in this thread, I will present some more details now. I will not detail everything but i wait nobody would repeat here the mistaken claim field theory or general relativity give us full 2-body solutions (General Relativity gives us only two coupled one-body equations). I recommend anyone interested to go to standard literature and get the rest.
I will begin start by writing a *standard* classical gravitational two- body equation of motion
{PARTIAL SIGMA(1,2) / PARTIAL(1,2) TAU} = {-i L SIGMA(1,2)}
where L is defined over Hamiltonian K. Both gravitational K and TAU are defined in [1]. If either are incomplete definitions. More general definitions are found in related literature, including the quantum version of the theory.
As in the standard non-relativistic case, SIGMA defines the classical state for the 2-body relativistic gravitational system.
The equations of motion of general relativity can be derived as a special case after doing a set of approximations on the two-body equation of motion. For instance,
1) If dissipation is negligible then L reduces to the classical 8N bracket
i L SIGMA(1,2) =[K, SIGMA(1,2)]
2) If there is no 'chaotic' regimes then we eliminate correlations {GAMMA(1,2) --> 0} and approximate
SIGMA = {SIGMA(1) SIGMA(2)}
3) If the dynamical state is not 'thermal' then we apply the pure state approximation
{SIGMA(1) SIGMA(2)} = {DELTA(1) DELTA(2)}
With DELTA being a 8 dimensional Dirac 'function'. Now DELTA(j) defines dynamical state for body j.
Applying approximations (1), (2), and (3) to the full 2-body equation gives the approximated
{PARTIAL {DELTA(1) DELTA(2)} / PARTIAL(1,2) TAU} = [K, {DELTA(1) DELTA(2)}]
>From which we derive [#] an equivalent set of differential canonical equations
{PARTIAL x(j)^b / PARTIAL TAU} = {PARTIAL K / PARTIAL p(j)_b}
{PARTIAL p(j)^b / PARTIAL TAU} = - {PARTIAL K / PARTIAL x(j)_b}
Just like in the non-relativistic case, we can directly solve the above 2-body equation at once (computationally difficult needing of sophisticated algorithms) or this set of coupled differential equations (computationally more tractable with well-optimized algorithms).
Obviously, those *derived* Hamiltonian equations for the system of two classical bodies are only valid when approximations (1), (2) and (3) hold. In the more general case one may solve the original 2-body relativistic equation of motion.
Notice that Hamiltonian K (equation 1.20 on [1])
K = {p(j)^b p(j)_b} / 2 m(j)}
can be rewritten like
K = {n^ab p(j)_a p(j)_b} / 2 m(j)}
It is now easy to see that can be generalized to
K = {G^ab p(j)_a p(j)^b} / 2 m(j)}
Still solving the Hamiltonian equations of motion using this Hamiltonian K is beyond general relativity because two motives:
- TAU (a many body concept) is not defined in General Relativity.
- The metric components G^ab are many-body also. Take a look to the potentials (eq. 1.25 on [1]) defined using RHO. The functional expression is G^ab = G^ab(RHO(TAU)).
RHO being a four-distance (see section 4.2.4 on [1]).
Obviously, above 'metric' are beyond General Relativity (numerical or not :-). In general relativity, the metrics are functions of spacetime g^ab = g^ab(x^d) = g^ab(t,x).
Therefore in our marvellous travel from {MANY} to {ONE} one would apply another approximation: a field like approximation. This is today a non-solved difficult problem [##]. I will just quote what would be the final result
{PARTIAL x(j)^b / PARTIAL t} = {PARTIAL K / PARTIAL p(j)_b}
{PARTIAL p(j)^b / PARTIAL t} = - {PARTIAL K / PARTIAL x(j)_b}
with G^ab --> g^ab.
Now it is well-known that solving those Hamiltonian equations is equivalent to solving the coupled geodesics equations of motion [2] for the two bodies.
This is just about {ONE}. The easy part everyone knows. Writing and solving a full two-body relativistic equation of motion are much more demanding tasks.
General Relativity and the geodesic equation of motion are approximations follow from a Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics.
That is the reason for existence of monographs like [1]. Would i remember here its title?
"Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics"
> charlie torre [1] Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics. Springer; 1999. Trump, Matthew A; Schieve, William C.
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesics_as_Hamiltonian_flows
[#] I suppose that i do not need to detail this undergraduate topic here.
[##] Precisely one of my current research programs is the derivation of Lienard-Wiechert potentials from a many-body theory. I think I have basically solved this problem. Ibegin from a many-body potential and then get a Lienard-Wiechert potentials (both electrodynamical and gravitational) after making a set of approximations. Approximations correspond with the limits of validity of a Field or metric description of interactions.
-- I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
Juan R. - 08 Dec 2007 20:01 GMT On Nov 26, 8:49 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 8, 6:18 pm, Igor Khavkine <igor...@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > generalize when more than one particle are considered. In fact, I even > mentioned this after initially introducing these equations: I show below how your "fairly obvious generalization" makes no sense for the study of many-body relativistic effects.
I also illustrate how a N-body equation follows from "Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics" [1].
>>> There could also be more than one particle, hence more than one >>> world-line, and more than one z. In that case, the RHS of (1) is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > z_i(s_i) may be obtained in a variety of ways, analytically or even > numerically. One would begin by differentiating two problems, namely {ONE} and {MANY}:
{ONE To get the one-body relativist equation of motion for a particle in a 'external' field generated by N-bodies }
{MANY To get the relativistic N-body equation of motion }
Let me review what you are doing exactly. First, you are computing the field generated by each particle and applying the superposition principle to get (eq. 1') the total field. Next you compute the effect of that total field on the one-body equation of motion (eq. 2') for particle i.
Well but that was just about the problem {ONE}; the trivial part everyone knows!
Solving {MANY} is the hard part you are *ignoring*; the part *avoided* in Poisson review.
If we want solve {MANY}, we would be a bit more serious. First, we would begin by writing the non-relativistic N-body equation of motion. In standard notation,
SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1,... N; 0) (3)
with L being a 6N classical Liouvillian defined over the non- relativistic Hamiltonian H. TAU is Newtonian time.
For solving problem {MANY}, we may generalize (3) to relativistic regimes.
In a simple look we can see (1') and (2') are not generalizations of (3).
This obligates us to turn to more general relativistic theories. Journals of physics are full with several proposals. The question is, what one?
Authors of "Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics" [1] argue that Stückelberg theory is an adequate framework for solving {MANY}. The corresponding relativistic N-body equation will be
SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) = {EXP {-i L TAU}} SIGMA(1,... N; 0) (4)
now L is a 8N classical Liouvillian defined over the relativistic Hamiltonian K. And TAU is a relativistic N-body time. Of course, K and TAU cannot be derived from Field theory (or from General Relativity). Both TAU and K are many-body concepts defined and discussed on [1].
Field theory and General Relativity rely in a number of one-body approximations, including
SIGMA(1,... N; TAU) --> {DELTA(1; TAU) ... DELTA(N; TAU)} (5)
Both the Lorentz equation of motion (Maxwell electromagnetism) and the geodesic equation of motion (General relativity) apply only when (5) holds.
A characteristic example where approximation (5) does not hold are chaotic systems. There, long-range correlations between particles are the rule. There, Field theory and General Relativity do not give us the equations of motion. It is *not* a causality that senior author of [1] was [5]
{BLOCKQUOTE regarded as one of the world experts in the field of relativistic chaos. }
I would notice that senior author of [1] has done contributions to the derivation of Hilbert/Einstein equations of General Relativity [7] using different fundamental techniques. It follows, Schieve is *not* saying that General Relativity was useless; Schieve is saying something different: General Relativity is incomplete.
One interesting research question is next: What would be a relativistic classical equation of motion for {ONE} when (5) does not hold?
Field theory (and General Relativity) cannot give an answer. Authors using different proposed theories and semiphenomenological approaches will give you different answers.
I will simply say that Burakovsky and Horwitz recently [2] derived one- body quantum relativistic equation from the equation (4) of above, using the definitions [1] for relativistic Hamiltonian K and relativistic TAU. Authors have worked a number of classical expressions in other places.
But as I already remarked in a previous message I think this field of relativistic physics is still open. Recent generalizations (see e.g. generalized inflationary cosmology [6]) do *not* change my thoughts.
At least those authors do not to claim, in open forums, that an elementary modification of equation (2) would magically give us a full N- body relativistic theory!
>> For instance, I find odd that Poisson just postulates eq. (3) without >> deriving it from first principles; does not specify limits of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A careful reading of the article will reveal answers to all of the above > points. Never doubt it. But an expertise reading reveals that answers are not acceptable.
> Does equation (3) violate causality? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > shrinks to just the expected causal past of the world-line up to the > given point. Several corrections and comments are needed here.
i] my original causality remark was about equation (3), not about equation (14). It is just (3) which enters on Dirac equation.
ii] equation (14) is a generalization of (9).
iii] Curved spacetime Green functions are not new (studied since early 60s). Do not solve problems with field theoretic or metric theories.
iv] the curved spacetime advanced potentials continue to depend on the particle's history after the advanced time v (See text on figure 2). Those potentials continue to be unphysical as noted by Poisson,
{BLOCKQUOTE The physically relevant solution to Equation (13) is obviously the retarded potential a A_ret(x) }
This rejection is introducing the same *inconsistency* that in the flat spacetime case. The advanced potentials are rejected at the wave equation level whereas are being accepted on the force equation.
These inconsistencies can be avoided, however. The curved spacetime Green functions are interpreted [3] in basis to a direct relativistic interaction between particles. This view [3] is similar to that of [1] where the fields were also avoided for consistency of the overall theory.
v] the extra H term on (14) corrects the high acausality associated to a Green function without H. But adding H has not eliminated acausality from the theory. A simple look to Figure 3 reveals that total potential continues involving signals from future.
> Why is the retarded potential the physically relevant solution? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > little radiation in the past to much more radiation in the future, it is > the retarded potential that is of physical interest. Nice writing, the problem is that I was not asking for a parroting of the field theoretic discourse. I explicitly asked for a fundamental and consistent explanation of an observed fact.
By commodity, I will simply cite the conclusions pointed in a recent Review of Modern Physics [3] about the field theoretic discourse:
{BLOCKQUOTE Field theory does not offer any answer. It stops at providing a scenario consistent with causality. The choice of the retarded solution is imposed _ad hoc_ rather than deduced. }
> Is equation (3) derived from first principles? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and 5 of the article are devoted to calculations showing these two > methods to be equivalent. But those sections continue lacking any self-consistent derivation from first principles, which was the point.
One self-consistent derivation was given by Wheeler and Feynman in basis to previous work by Dirac. See [3] for a modern revision and extension in a cosmological framework.
> What are the limits of applicability of the point particle > approximation? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Lorentz-Dirac equation and its order-reduced (second order) modifiation. > Again, with more references. Rohrlich has published a more recent paper [4] addressing that specific issue, where he derives a formal (his equation 6)
ma = {1 / {1 - D}} F_ext
Retaining terms up to first order on operator D, one gets
ma = {1 + D} F_ext
This linearization of his equation (6) is just the equation (9.8) in Poisson preprint you cite for the special case
D == t_0 {d / dt}
Rohrlich (equation 6) is based in one _ad hoc_ assumption (see equation 5 on [4]) which, is equivalent to assuming {D << 1}.
The assumption {D << 1} implies certain limits for both the size of the t_0 parameter and the strength of the external force F_ext.
The main difficulty is on that the _ad hoc_ assumption taken on [4] violates the most basic principles of field theory. As a consequence, Rohrlich equation 6 and the special case of Poisson (equation 9.8) do also.
It seems, from your writings, that you think that Poisson has solved more or less the difficulties, presenting us a reliable one-body classical equation of motion would be valid for all practical purposes.
Let me then reproduce that Rohrlich warns in the last part of [4]:
{BLOCKQUOTE I want to emphasize that Eq. (6) is not meant as the definitive equation of motion for a classical charged particle; after all, the self-force (2) is only an approximation. }
>> Their elegant theory is also free from internal contradictions have >> plagued field theory during centuries. And all of us (fundamental [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Personally, I think the particle-field dyanamics described by Poisson's > review article is very elegant. It is worth that you decided to focus on the subjective part of my message: elegance.
The crucial part of my message is when I said their theory lacks internal contradictions.
> Fortunately, as I've mentioned > previously, the question of elegance should soon be irrelevant, provided > we get some good data from the gravitational wave astronomy experiments. That data will be interesting. Just to point that "good data" will not magically turn Classical electrodynamics or General Relativity into a completely general and consistent theory.
For instance, none of that data will transform your equations (1') and (2') into a N-body equation looking like (4).
>>> In their monograph, Trump and Schieve study "Coulomb" scattering in >>> this formalism. However, in the attempt to eliminate fields, they have >>> also eliminated a reason for using the Coulomb potential away from the >>> non-relativistic regime. Recall that the Coulomb potential is obtained >>> by solving for the electromagnetic *field* of a stationary charge.
> [...snip rant about "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential...] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > specifically that form for the electrostatic potential, as opposed to an > arbitrary function of r. I want to emphasize that you started this part of the discussion with an invalid criticism about scattering on Trump and Schieve monograph [1].
In my previous reply, I pointed some of the mistakes you were doing. I can see you have deleted the entire technical part of my message, including the equations and *functional* expression for the potentials. However, you continue making mistaken claims about the Coulomb interaction and the electrostatic limit of field theory.
I will not repeat said in previous message. However, i will present a resume:
- *Coulomb* potential --> 1/R
- Lienard-Wiechert potential --> 1/r_ret
- Electrostatic limit of Lienard-Wiechert potential --> 1/r
- Relativistic *Coulomb* potential --> 1/RHO
I have used different notations R, r_ret, r, and RHO for emphasizing they are both *mathematical* and *physically* different.
RHO is defined in [1]. It has been proved how RHO reduces to the R in a Coulomb potential in the non-relativistic limit. I think i cited one J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. paper from 1995 previously.
The expression for the Lienard-Wiechert potential and its electrostatic limit are available in virtually any textbook.
> In other cases, such as for nuclear forces or for free charges in a > superconductor, the Yukawa potential exp(-r)/r is appropriate, again a > prediction of the corresponding field theory. One can derive Yukawa-like potentials without any appeal to field theory, if either we use an alternative naming for the resulting potential.
- Screened-Coulomb potential --> exp(-kR)/R
with k, sometimes called the the Debye or Fermi-Thomas wave vector, measuring the strength of the damping factor.
And, like in the Coulomb case, this functional expression (note it is using R instead r) is in the right shape for a N-body relativistic theory. I mean, you could take the Screened-Coulomb potential into equation (4).
> As to the "right" vs "wrong" Coulomb potential, eliminating mathematical > mistakes, the right Coulomb potential is known by everyone, whether they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > example where the different dynamical theory you described has better > agreement with experiment than the standard one. You have decided to continue *calling* the Coulomb potential to the wrong expression, ignoring the physics, the mathematics, and the even the history of the subject.
I would add a note on epistemology. The novel relativistic theories will be _by design_ forced to agree with known experimental cases for which we know both field theory and general relativity work fine. Do not worry Igor, synchrotron physics is on the target...
As I said in a previous a sci.physics.research posting [8],
{BLOCKQUOTE new proposed theories are obligated to give predictions compatible with the old theories in some specific limit. }
REFERENCES
[1] Classical Relativistic Many-Body Dynamics. Springer; 1999. Trump, Matthew A; Schieve, William C.
[2] Found. of Phys. 1995, 25(9), 1335.
[3] Rev. Mod. Phys. 1995, 67(1), 113.
[4] Phys. Rev. D 2001, 63, 127701.
[5] http://order.ph.utexas.edu/research/glimpse.html
[6] Gen. Rel. Grav. 1995 27(10), 1043.
[7] Theoretical and Mathematical Physics 2007, 151(2), 700.
[8] http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/spr/2007-11/msg0078202.html
-- I follow http://canonicalscience.com/guidelines.txt
|
|
|