Baez's Week 250, The Meaning of Relativity and Affine Spaces
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Rock Brentwood - 06 Nov 2007 20:39 GMT This is an expansion of the reply issued back in April or May in sci.math.research to: This Week's Finds: Week 250 2007 April 26 http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/68b6191b0c963d6d?dmode=source
A more complete version may be found under: http://federation.g3z.com/Physics/index.htm#TWF250
There are a lot of issue here, including a clarification of the roles Maxwell and Lorentz in the emergence of Special Relativity (and a clearing up of a major misconception of what Maxwell actually did and said). There's also a novelty posed here: linking the notion of relativity to affine and projective spaces, and linking the genesis of the space-time concept to none other than the principle of relativity, itself!
"Well, even though I can't allow you to move the sun through the skies, what I can do is to stop the sky." -- Untold Story of Phaeton (what *really* happened) http://federation.g3z.com/FedSeries/FourthWave/Phaeton%20Myth.htm
>From the original Week 250 article ... "Right now I'm in a country estate called Les Treilles in southern France, at a conference organized by Alexei Grinbaum and Michel Bitbol: 1) Philosophical and Formal Foundations of Modern Physics, http://www-drecam.cea.fr/Phocea/Vie_des_labos/Ast/ast_visu.php?id_ast=762"
"Okay - now for our Tale. I want to explain double cosets as spans of groupoids... but it's best if I start with some special relativity."
[...]
"Though Newton to have believed in some form of "absolute space", the idea that motion is relative predates Einstein by a long time..."
(Foray into the concept of classical Galilean Relativity and the Poincare' Relativity of special Relativity)
These following are my comments relating to the original, a few parts kept intact.
Though Newton is said to have believed in some form of absolute space, the idea that motion is relative predates Einstein by a long time. In 1632, in his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo wrote: (To paraphrase, since the original comment was in Baez' article): "In a deckhold of a large steady-going vessel, it looks and feels like you're standing still, the same as when you're ashore."
(Of course, Galileo didn't discover that. Any sailor who's ever gone on a downwind heading already knows all about that.)
As a result, the coordinate transformation we use in Newtonian mechanics to switch from one reference frame to another moving at a constant velocity relative to the first is called a Galilei transformation. For example: (t, x, y, y) --> (t, x + vt, y, z).
The problem Newton had with the concept can be more clearly understood if put in modern perspective. When we say motion is relative, what we're actually saying is that there is no distinguished 0 for velocity. In a typical Physics course, we are taught to regard velocity as a vector. But the absence of a distinguished origin is precisely what differentiates a vector space from an affine geometry! Thus, what we are actually saying, when we say that motion is relative, is that velocities are not vectors at all, but are points in an affine space [and that the present-day Earth-bound civilization is not yet advanced enough to fully understand and fully accommodate the notion of relativity.]
One can go further, in fact, and treat velocities as points not just in an affine space, but projective space, if we also include the infinite velocities. Though worth mentioning, we won't actually do this here, and will only make brief reference to it below when explaining the difference between Galilean relativity and special relativity.
In either case, the problem that Newton had emerges here. If velocities are relative, then what are positions? Even more relative?
Since affine points are relative, then the vector operations (r,v) |-> rv, (v,w) |-> v+w now have to be replaced by affine operations (r,o,v) |-> (1-r)o + rv, (o,v,w) |-> v-o+w with the vector operations recast so as to make the origin explicit, rv = (1- r)0 + rv and v + w = v - 0 + w . In a way we already acknowledge this: the so-called parallelogram rule for vector addition actually pertains to the 4 points, v,0,w, v - 0 + w , not just 3. So, it's actually the operative rule for affine addition, not vector addition!
The difference of affine points, however, can still be considered a vector. Indeed, that is the very genesis of the concept. Vector, in Latin, means to carry or transport. So the arrow depicting a vector has a head h and tail t corresponding to the 2 affine points respectively situated, and the vector itself is their difference h - t . It is visually represented by drawing an arrow from point t to point h .
It's at this point, we see Newton's dilemma. Accelerations are differentials of velocities, so they must be vectors. In particular, a distinguished 0 has meaning for acceleration. But, if vector accelerations are the differentials of affine velocities, then affine velocities are differentials of what? That is, how does one complete the analogy, (acceleration):(velocity) = (velocity):(position); that is, (vector):(affine) = (affine):(???).
Classically, positions are treated as points in a Euclidean geometry -- that is as points in an affine geometry. But if positions are affine points, then their differences would be vectors, and velocities would not be affine at all, but vectors!
This was the dilemma Newton faced. There was simply nothing in the vocabulary of the time to complete the analogy above. That is, the question The differential of (???) is an affine point could not be resolved.
This is a very important point that almost always passes by unnoticed. Though it is rarely discussed explicitly, the most important ramification of the relativity of motion cuts deep into the very core of how we think about space, itself, and conduct our lives.
The relativity of motion means an even more relative relativity of position. In particular, if it is relative whether one is standing still "at a point" or moving, then the very question of whether that point at an earlier time is the "same place" or "different place" as that at a later time is, itself, relative. For instance, the very question of whether the World Trade Center in 2001 in New York is the "same place" as the hallowed ground commemorated in succeeding Septembers, itself, becomes relative! After all, the Earth is moving around the Sun and is rotating around its axis. The Sun is moving around the center of the Milky Way galaxy and the galaxy is moving toward the Great Attractor. So, is the "same place" even on Earth at all, or is it somewhere in the middle of outer space where the "Earth was"? The answer is: it's relative.
Thus, the very underpinning of such hallowed ceremonies as memorials -- one of the major foundations of everyday life -- is undercut at its very root. So, though people may "know" that motion is relative, their lives have not actually accommodated that principle. And even unbeknownst to themselves, they actually do not know that motion is relative!
One should not, however, generalize too much. There actually are languages where the essential unity of the concepts of motion and stasis are explicitly recognized. For instance, in Japanese, the same root is used for all three concepts, "to be at", "to come" and "to go".
The underlying problem, of course, is that humans are still currently an Earth-bound race and so are caught in the warp of an "absolute space" frame of mind fixed on the Earth, as if the surface of the planet were a Cosmic Floor. In the near future, as this civilization evolves from a 2-dimensional geography into the 3-dimensional cosmography of a spacefaring civilization, the relativity of the sameness of position will bear more directly on peoples' experiences.
The more adventurous sorts will refer back home to the "Earthlubbers who still think places are fixed, are stuck in their Real World and are out of touch with the Real Cosmos".
Just from asking the right question here, one sees that the ramification of the relativity of motion is that points in space cannot form an affine geometry
For whereas the question of motion vs. rest is relative, the mere question of whether a point at one time is the same as a point at another time now becomes relative! The very cohesiveness of the concept of point, when meant in the sense of a location or place enduring in time, is lost.
In place of "point", one needs to adopt a new primitive that runs deeper: a "place at a given time" or, what is known in the parlance of modern Physics, an "event". This is actually what makes the concept of space-time necessary, in place of space and time.
Thus, we see here that the true genesis of the space-time concept is the *Galilean* principle of relativity, not Minkowski, and the necessity of the concept goes all the way back to Galileo, not Einstein, Lorentz or Minkowski.
So, what is the anti-differential of an affine space? A more general type of geometry whose points are "events" and where the space of velocities at each point is an affine space. In modern language, this is known as an Affine Bundle. It is the concept that had been absent in the time of Newton and is what made necessary the expedient Newton took with his concept of "absolute space" in order to make it possible to properly establish a geometric foundation for his physics.
Now, skipping ahead a couple centuries past Galileo and Newton...
By the time Maxwell came up with his equations describing light, the idea of relativity of motion was well established.
In 1876, he wrote: (to paraphrase, since the original comments are in the Baez article) "In space, they can't hear you scream. There are no landmarks. Not for position, not for time, nor even for your motion."
However, the terrestrial frame of mind still pervaded Maxwell's thinking and the concept underlying these remarks (notwithstanding the intellectual awareness of it) had not been fully assimilated. In fact, the theory he posed in his treatise even undercut his own remarks here! One of the more significant deficits of Maxwell's treatise is the absence of a comprehensive analysis of the effect of a change in the frame of reference on the equations defining the theory he laid out. There was a strong tendency, in particular, to refer everything to a fixed ground frame.
This actually made it harder to fully appreciate and understand one of the more important, but little-remembered, features of Maxwell's theory: his equations were still Galilean invariant. This invariance was achieved, by breaking the relativity of motion, hypothesizing the existence of a universal velocity G . The frame where G = 0 was then the frame where light propagation would take place in a sphere on a fixed center. The breaking of relativity was brought in by, what in modern terms, would be relations of the following forms D = epsilon_0 (E + GxB), B = mu_0 (H - GxD) between the two sets of fields. In actuality, Maxwel's E is equivalent to what we would now call E + GxB , since he posed the following equation between the field and potential: E = -del phi - dA/dt + GxB whereas, today, we just write E = -del phi - dA/dt.
Because Maxwell never carried out a complete analysis, he never fully discerned the necessity of the second relation B = mu_0 (H - GxD), though the - GxD term had been mentioned by Heaviside in a posthumous footnote.
It is an unfortunate circumstance in timing that Maxwell's treatise came out only in time to quote figures for light speed of accuracy of 100,000 km/hour. For, this put the quotes just outside the threshold where one could begin to discern G from the Earth's motion.
And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated the principle of relativity into his own thought, he never even raised the question of what effect the motion of the Earth would have on the measurement of light speed!
Needless to say, it eventually reached the point where the uncertainty of the figures quoted for light speed fell under the magic threshold of the Earth's orbital speed. So, by the 1880's it gradually became apparent that no motion could be discerned at all, and that it was as if every frame of reference had G = 0 !
Eventually, this led to the modification of the two constitutive laws by Lorentz to the form D = epsilon_0 E, B = mu_0 H. Consequently, the theory that presently goes under the name of "Maxwell's Theory" and the equations under the name "Maxwell's Equations" are actually a hybrid creation of Maxwell and Lorentz and, in earlier times, had been known as Maxwell-Lorentz theory or the Maxwell-Lorentz equations to make this distinction explicit.
This is the true genesis of what came to be known as Special Relativity, though it was not properly appreciated at the time as such. What's significant about this turn of events is that it repudiates Maxwell's own repudiation of relativity! It reasserts the relativity of motion -- but now in a difference guise.
The contrast between the two forms of relativity is not too difficult to explain: whereas relativity under Galileo had entailed that infinity is an absolute speed, relativity under Maxwell-Lorentz theory entails that a finite speed -- the speed at which light travels -- is absolute.
That is, under changes of reference in the physics of Galileo and Newton, an infinite velocity remains an infinite velocity. This is actually what justifies treating velocities there as merely points in an affine space, rather than points in a projective space. We can distinguish an invariant "plane at infinity" in the geometry comprising velocities in Newtonian/Galilean physics.
In contrast, in a change in frame of reference under a form of relativity consistent with the Maxwell-Lorentz theory, light speed remains the same. The roles are reversed. While light speed is now absolute, it's now infinity that is a relative speed. Under a change in frame of reference, an infinite speed transforms into a faster- than- light speed.
As a consequence of the revised principle of relativity, it is as if G = 0 were true in every frame of reference, so the G is superfluous. It is for this reason that the alphabet soup that Maxwell had devised: A (magnetic potential), B (magnetic induction), C (total current), D (electric displacement), E (electric intensity), F (force density), H (magnetic intensity), I (magnetization) and J (current) now has a hole in it where the letter G used to be.
So, the big deal about special relativity is not that motion is relative. The principle of relativity goes much deeper back to Galileo and had already been present. Rather, it's that it is possible to assert the relativity principle while keeping the speed of light the same for everyone - as the modern form of Maxwell's equations insist, and as we indeed see! In place of Galilean transformations, which leave infinite velocities invariant, we have Lorentz transformations, which leave motions at light speed invariant.
Making infinite speeds relative means the same thing as making simultaneity relative. Think about this for a while: two events are simultaneous, precisely one would need to go at infinite speed to get from one event to the other. Since infinite speed is absolute in Newtonian physics, then so is the simultaneity of events. Thus, it is possible to attach a clock time to every single event in such a way that two events have the same time precisely when they are simultaneous. This labeling of events by time is, then, independent of reference frame.
In popularizations this feature is couched by the unnecessarily vague and misleading term "absolute time".
In contrast, under the relativity of Maxwell-Lorentz theory, infinity is a relative speed. Consequently, two events deemed simultaneous in one frame of reference are not so under a change in frame of reference! This is what forced people to replace Galilei transformations by "Lorentz transformations", whose most important distinguishing feature is that two coordinate systems moving relative to each other will disagree not just on where things are, but when they are.
As Einstein wrote in 1905: (To paraphrase) "We can take G = 0 in all frames AND consistently assert a (new form) of relativity for motion; thus allowing us to take, unchanged, Maxwell's theory in a 'stationary frame' to one for arbitrary moving frames."
Einstein, himself, was not fully cognizant of the distinction between Maxwell's older theory and the then more recent Maxwell-Lorentz theory, and so thought he was correcting an internal discrepancy latent in Maxwell's theory, itself.
But once the fog of war from that time period is lifted, we see that what he was actually doing was removing the discrepancy between Maxwell and Lorentz from the Maxwell-Lorentz theory. What he was referring to is that one can, indeed, remove Maxwell's hypothesis of a universal velocity G , and assert the constitutive law D = epsilon_0 E, B = mu_0 H in every frame of reference, as if G = 0 were true in each one, precisely as Lorentz had said could be done. Only he didn't try to force-fit it into Galilean relativity, as Lorentz had been trying to do up to then.
So, what really changed with the advent of special relativity? First, our understanding of precisely which transformations count as symmetries of spacetime. These transformations form a group. Before special relativity, it seemed the relevant group was a 10-dimensional gadget consisting of: * 3 dimensions of spatial translations * 1 dimension of time translations * 3 dimensions of rotations * 3 dimensions of Galilei transformations Nowadays this is called the Galilei group.
With special relativity, the relevant group became the Poincare' group: * 3 dimensions of spatial translations * 1 dimension of time translations * 3 dimensions of rotations * 3 dimensions of Lorentz transformations It's still 10-dimensional, not any bigger. [Actually: smaller. See following note] But, it acts differently as transformations of the spacetime coordinates (t, x, y, z) .
(Note: Actually, it's smaller. A deeper analysis of the Galilei group uncovers the need for an 11th degree of symmetry. The passage from Galilei to Poincare' involves mixing this extra degree of symmetry with the Galilean notion of time translation to give us the Poincare' notion of time translation. In fact, to define a consistent limiting relation for Poincare' -> Galilei, one needs to add an 11th parameter to Poincare'!)
Another thing that changed was our appreciation of the importance of symmetry! Before the 20th century, group theory was not in the toolkit of most theoretical physicists. Now it is.
Okay. Now suppose you're the only thing in the universe, floating in empty space, not rotating. To make your stay in this thought experiment a pleasant one, I'll give you a space suit. And for simplicity, suppose special relativity holds true exactly, with no gravitational fields to warp the geometry of spacetime.
Would the universe be any different if you were moving at constant velocity? Or translated 2 feet to the left or right? Or turned around? Or if it were one day later?
No! Not in any observable way, at least! It would seem exactly the same.
Unlike the Earth, the vacuum of outer space does not have, in and of itself, fixed landmarks, just as Maxwell had described. Where but for the presence of stars, planets and other celestial bodies, your sojourn into space would be the very definition of Lost. Like the stagnantly-unchanging homogeneous residential district in the working class neighborhood of a Communist-era nation, it would look so much the same everywhere, with the landscape filled with buildings and apartments that can barely be distinguished from one another and look the same from year to year, that you wouldn't be able to find your way around and wouldn't even know what year it was!
So in this situation, it doesn't really make much sense to say "where you are", or "which way you're facing", or "what time it is".
Spacetime is actually more deadening, still. You could run away from the Communist state (or try), and it would look like it's receding from you. You can distinguish being stuck in it from getting out of it. In contrast, the vacuum has no reference velocity (notwithstanding Maxwell or Newton's assertions to the contrary). Therefore, you can't even tell if you're moving anywhere or standing still.
The remainder of the discussion can be found both in the Baez article and the discussion whose link is posted at the top of the article.
harry - 07 Nov 2007 16:21 GMT > This is an expansion of the reply issued back in April or May in > sci.math.research to: [...]
Here one little correction to this very interesting overview:
> And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame > of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated > the principle of relativity into his own thought, he never even raised > the question of what effect the motion of the Earth would have on the > measurement of light speed! Maxwell certainly raised that question and even discussed it. Apparently it was Maxwell who gave suggestions for such experiments as that by Michelson-Morley. http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath241/kmath241.htm Of course, it would be rather unreasonable to expect from Maxwell, at that time, to account for all the possible effects. :-)
Regards, Harald
Rock Brentwood - 02 Dec 2007 22:30 GMT > > And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame > > of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was Maxwell who gave suggestions for such experiments as that by > Michelson-Morley.http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath241/kmath241.htm To me, that's a large correction -- I wasn't aware of Maxwell's post- treatise activities -- or at least I assume this was follow-up by him post-dating the treatise. I didn't see any specific cites in your article: where and when did Maxwell write on the issue?
I'll make the appropriate updates.
> Of course, it would be rather unreasonable to expect from Maxwell, at that time, to account for all the possible effects. :-) Once you postulate that the vacuum is an active dielectric medium (which maxwell did, so that he could write a non-trivial (D = epsilon E) relation in order to smear out the self-force infinity), then the question naturally arises: what are the products of the electric polarization of the vacuum? And what dynamics governs the generation of opposite charges from the vacuum?
The other issue raised in the article: the nature of velocity. True enough, in a Newton-Cartan spacetime one has infinity as an invariant speed, so that an invariant plane at infinity can be distinguished. Thus, it is justified to treat velocities as residing in an affine space, rather than in a projective space. However, since infinity is a relative speed under the Lorentz group, then one is forced to bring in the entirety of projective space. Then the space-time is modelled not as an affine bundle, but as a projective bundle.
There were two other interesting points raised in the article, tacitly, not commonly seen. Space-time is the manifold of events, each representing a point at an instant. This gives one a different interpretation, more directly connected to kinematics, of the tangent space. This is the space of all tangents of worldlines that meet a given even. Each tangent characterizes a velocity. Thus, the tangent space is NOT a flat-space approximation of the manifold of EVENTS, but a PRECISE description of the linear space of VELOCITIES! The "flat- space" metric is then just the metric characterizing the space where the velocities live.
This serves to underscore the point raised about relativity: there is no zero to velocity, so the tangent spaces have to be regarded as affine (or projective), not just as vector spaces. The manifold is therefore an affine bundle (or projective bundle), not simply a manifold.
The second major point is that this then sets one up to make the appropriate distinctions between the different causal structures and formulate a GEOMETRIC equivalence principle. That is, one postulates that the affine (or projective) bundle can be reduced further to a bundle of frames "orthonormal" with respect to the "flat-space" metric. A Newton-Cartan spacetime, for instance, would have a geometric Equivalence Principle which raises the metric eta_{mn} = diag(1,0,0,0) and dual metric eta^{mn} = diag(0,1,1,1) to prominence, whereas the Lorentzian Equivalence Principle specifies orthonormality of the frame bundle with respect to the metric eta_{mn} = diag(1,-1/ c^2,-1/c^2,-1/c^2) and dual eta^{mn} = diag(-1/c^2,1,1,1) -- thus also allowing one to equate them as one anothers' inverses by suitable rescaling.
The "affine" or "projective" spaces therefore have the additional structure of an "affinized" inner product. Whereas the vector space inner product (u,v) |-> <u,v> is a function of 2 vectors, an affinized inner product (u,O,v) |-> <u-O,v-O> is a function of the 3 points forming an angle uOv (with its value being the area of the parallelogram formed by the points u,O,v,u-O+v). So, then, the character of the inner product distinguishes the type of spacetime one has. At the opposite extreme, one could even formulate an equivalence principle for an Aristotolean space, where the metric eta_{mn} = diag(0,1,1,1) and dual metric eta^{mn} = diag(1,0,0,0).
For tangent spaces as vector spaces, the frames have GL(4) symmetry, which reduces to the SO(3,1) bundle of Lorentz orthonormal frames. The manifolds of these groups are, respectively, S_3 x PS_3 x R^10 and PS_3 x R^3, leading to the quotient space S_3 x R^7, which is the 10- dimensional space where Lorentzian metrics resides.
The metrics are actually labels for VACUUM SECTORS for the symmetry breaking GL(4) -> SO(3,1) -- this is the essential statement of the geometric form of the Equivalence Principle. (Quantum theorists, then, take note: this states that each different value of the metric identifies a different coherent subspaces, so that no two metric states have coherent superpositions and the metric is essentially classical!)
(This, in fact, is the foundation of Sardanashvily's formulation of gravity as a symmetry-breaking field. He further argued that this symmetry breaking, in fact, is not merely a nice postulate to add on to the structure of a bare manifold, but is made into a necessity by the presence of fermions.)
All the above extends by analogy to the affine spaces GL(4):SO(3,1) = GA(4):Poincare'.
But now ... if one goes further to the projective spaces, what is the analogy here? GL(4):SO(3,1) = GA(4):Poincare' = (???):Conformal=SO(4,2)?
What is the "projectivization" of GL(4)? And what symmetry group does the "tangent space" of the projective bundle satisfy?
harry - 17 Dec 2007 16:28 GMT I had overlooked this reply; for the record the following precision:
>> > And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame >> > of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I'll make the appropriate updates. I don't know on what the author of math pages based his assertion. However, according to Lorentz (1892, "De relatieve beweging van de aarde en den aether", Verslagen der zittingen ... vol.I, p.74-97), "Maxwell had already remarked that if the aether doesn't move along, the motion of the earth must have an influence on the time that light requires to go back and forth between two fixed, with the earth connected points." (translation mine). Regretfully, Lorentz did not provide a reference.
Regards, Harald
Doug Sweetser - 07 Nov 2007 20:47 GMT Hello:
The emphasis on the relativity of special relativity is a common technique I dislike. Special relativity is equally about what is conserved. To get any handle on these issue, both what is relative and what is conserved must be clearly stated. Measurements of time and distances between events in spacetime are relative, but the interval between them is not. The Michelson-Morley experiment shows that the speed of light is constant, but the frequency and wavelength are not. I don't think there is any way to understand special relativity unless equal air time is given to invariants as is given to measurements that are relative. The Museum of Science in Boston omitted the balancing notion in a recent exhibit.
I didn't know about Maxwell's G factor, neat.
doug
Oz - 08 Nov 2007 17:18 GMT Doug Sweetser <dougsweetser@gmail.com> writes
>The >Michelson-Morley experiment shows that the speed of light is constant, but >the frequency and wavelength are not. I don't think there is any way to >understand special relativity unless equal air time is given to invariants >as is given to measurements that are relative. Yes.
However when I pointed this out some years ago, it met with a resounding silence. I would have thought at least a brief discussion would have been in order. It would appear to mean that we have a ruler (a specific light beam) agreed by all observers, which you would have thought was handy.
I am also somewhat baffled by the comment about 'simultaneous events' being different for different observers. This is always said with great gravitas, as if it were remarkable, but unless I am missing something profound its to be expected since the only simultaneous events must happen at the same place and the same time, which is trivial. Trying to work out what I seem to have missed still somewhat baffles me.
 Signature Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Doug Sweetser - 09 Nov 2007 15:47 GMT Hello Oz:
It looks like your slightly scrabble the eggs. Let's make sure we clearly state what are the invariants, and what are covariants. The word "covariant" means we all know how it changes, and because it changes, it is not an invariant.
When measuring the speed of light, the speed of light is an invariant, and the frequency and wavelengths of light are covariant. Measuring the speed of something that has mass is covariant (oops, I am not sure of the invariant).
For events, the interval tau is invariant (tau^2 = dt^2 - (dx/c)^2) but the measurement of time and the measurement of space are covariant.
The way I read this phrase:
> "we have a ruler (a specific light beam) agreed by all observers" it sounds like a measurement of space in invariant, which it is not, it is covariant. One could set up a blinking beacon, and then the interval of these blinks, tau^2 = dt^2 - (dx/c)^2, would be an invariant agreed by all observers.
When events happen in spacetime at exactly the same time, we say it is simultaneous. For many other observers, they will also agree that the events happened at the same time. This large group of other observers happen to have very small relative velocity to each other. Think of a soccer match when everyone cheers simultaneously because of a goal. All of our experience with the order of events dictates the events are a completely ordered set: this event happened before that event, or this event happened at the same time as that one. All observers with a small relative velocity will agree with all the orderings you provide.
What is remarkable is that there are super-zippy observers - say folks surfing on cosmic rays - who will think that one cheer from fan A happen before the cheer from fan B, while another surfer traveling a different super-zippy speed will say B cheered before A. This happens if events A and B do not live inside either one's future or past light cone, which is what happens if there is an observer that says dt=0.
There is some split-brain thinking to all this business. Should I consider the wall in front of me to be in my future light cone, or as existing simultaneous to me, and thus not in my future light cone? If I walk into the wall, the wall had to be in my future light cone so I could walk into it in a finite speed. The wall does appear to be existing just fine independent of me at exactly the same time. If the wall is there at exactly the same time, then I have a spacelike separation. This makes me sound like a politician, trying to have both a spacelike and timelike relationship with other objects in the Universe. Being confused about issues like this is a good sign.
doug
harry - 11 Nov 2007 06:50 GMT > Doug Sweetser <dougsweetser@gmail.com> writes >>The [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > light beam) agreed by all observers, which you would have thought was > handy. It's rather well discussed in much of the literature - even since 1906 - that the spacetime intervals of Poincare and Minkowski are invariant. Still, what we are usually interested in is what we directly measure in the lab, such as clock time periods.
> I am also somewhat baffled by the comment about 'simultaneous events' > being different for different observers. This is always said with great > gravitas, as if it were remarkable, but unless I am missing something > profound its to be expected since the only simultaneous events must > happen at the same place and the same time, which is trivial. Trying to > work out what I seem to have missed still somewhat baffles me. Indeed, there is nothing profound about relativity of simultaneity, and it was already discussed in the 19th century. However, it's often stressed because it's all too easily overlooked or forgotten - leading to huge errors and misconceptions.
Regards, Harald
Tom Roberts - 09 Nov 2007 18:54 GMT > The Michelson-Morley experiment shows > that the speed of light is constant, but the frequency and wavelength > are not. The Michelson-Morley experiment (MMX) actually shows nothing of the sort. It merely shows that for a Michelson interferometer on earth the fringe positions are independent of orientation. All else is INTERPRETATION, not actual experimental results. The actual measurements of the MMX show nothing whatsoever about speed, frequency, or wavelength; they only describe fringe positions in the interferometer.
Such interpretations inherently depend on which theory is used, and using different theories one can interpret the MMX results (for light on earth) as either: A) the speed of light is independent of orientation, as is the wavelength from a given source B) the speed of light varies with orientation in precisely such a manner that the fringes don't shift C) the speed and wavelength of light vary with orientation in precisely such a manner that the fringes don't shift D) ... surely other interpretations are possible ...
Of course the MMX is not the only relevant experiment, and when combined with the hundreds of other experimental tests of SR, one finds that the only known theories that are not refuted by one or more of them are all experimentally indistinguishable from SR. But within that equivalence class [#] the various theories have INTERPRETATIONS corresponding to (A), (B), and (C) above for the MMX (SR of course is (A)).
[#] These theories differ from SR in that the one-way speed of light varies with orientation and frame, in such a manner that the round-trip speed of light is isotropically c in every inertial frame. The one-way speed of light is not observable independent of a convention for synchronizing clocks, and the different theories naturally use different conventions for their coordinate clocks. Physical clocks, of course, are synchronized via a convention selected by the experimenter, and when that is included in the analysis all theories of this class give identical predictions.
There are a number of reasons why SR is the only theory of this equivalence class that is well known. The primary one is the underlying Lorentz symmetry of SR, which no other member of this class obeys as a fundamental symmetry.
> I don't think there is any way to understand special > relativity unless equal air time is given to invariants as is given to > measurements that are relative. Yes, invariants are extremely important in relativity, and indeed in all of physics (e.g. compare Lagrangian mechanics with Newtonian). The Lorentz symmetry of SR is a powerful statement about invariants.
Oz wrote:
> It would appear to mean that we have a ruler (a specific > light beam) agreed by all observers, which you would have thought was > handy. A light beam is not a ruler. It requires selection of one of the valid theories from that equivalence class to construct a ruler out of a light beam. For most of those theories the resulting "ruler" will vary strongly with orientation (if you use the one-way speed of light to construct the "ruler").
> I am also somewhat baffled by the comment about 'simultaneous events' > being different for different observers. This is always said with great > gravitas, as if it were remarkable, but unless I am missing something > profound its to be expected since the only simultaneous events must > happen at the same place and the same time, which is trivial. Trying to > work out what I seem to have missed still somewhat baffles me. This is mere words -- "simultaneous" can mean whatever one wants it to mean.
The underlying issue is how to construct a coordinate system in an inertial frame which is self-consistent and orthogonal. It is found that events which share a given value of the time coordinate of frame A will be a different locus in spacetime from those which share a common value of the time coordinate in frame B. The usual meaning for "simultaneous in frame A" is that such events share a given value of Frame A's time coordinate, when the coordinates are orthogonal. That is, such a coordinate system will extend your restricted meaning of "simultaneous" above to any spatial location of the relevant inertial frame, but not to any other frame.
Note that much of the confusion about relativity is generated by imprecise definitions and descriptions. Compared to GR, SR is simple in this regard. Compared to some future theory of quantum gravity, I strongly suspect that GR is simple in this regard....
Tom Roberts
Doug Sweetser - 11 Nov 2007 06:50 GMT Hello Tom:
Sounds like you are well-versed in the lore of the Michelson-Morley experiment, which you refer to as MMX. Still what you write does not sound right to my ear. The speed is equal to the wavelength times the frequency, or
c = lambda nu
What I said was the speed c is observed to be an invariant, and both the wavelength lambda and frequency nu depend on relative velocities, and are thus covariant quantities. Although I am not verse in the experimental proofs, I am sure it has been shown many times that the wavelength and frequency obey the relativistic Doppler shift equation to all levels of precision measured to date.
You wrote:
> A) the speed of light is independent of orientation, as is the > wavelength from a given source ..
> C) the speed and wavelength of light vary with orientation in > precisely such a manner that the fringes don't shift This make it sound like the speed and wavelength behave similarly, which they do not. There is also no reference to the frequency which in an equation that involves only three players is a significant omission.
doug
harry - 14 Nov 2007 19:14 GMT >> The Michelson-Morley experiment shows >> that the speed of light is constant, but the frequency and wavelength [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > nothing whatsoever about speed, frequency, or wavelength; they only > describe fringe positions in the interferometer. Indeed, the MMX only showed that the theory of that time was wrong.
> Such interpretations inherently depend on which theory is used, and using > different theories one can interpret the MMX results (for light on earth) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > class [#] the various theories have INTERPRETATIONS corresponding to (A), > (B), and (C) above for the MMX (SR of course is (A)). Good explanation, but sorry, that last addition is also not correct. Special relativity is NOT natural philosophy. Instead, it's a principle theory concerning laws of physics, and those are about OBSERVABLES (or phenomena). Lorentz and Einstein agreed on Special Relativity, exactly because it doesn't contain any metaphysics - it's based on observables only. For example "the speed of light" is defined with a specific measurement procedure. Change that definition and the descriptions change accordingly - but that is by convention.
Janssen puts it as follows: the principle theory [...] only gives constraints on possible models of physical reality on the basis of judiciously chosen general features of the phenomena. http://www.pitt.edu/~philpart/Abstracts/2002_03Abstracts/Abstract_Janssen_3-21-03.htm
Physicists agree to disagree about interpretations of observables, since those cannot be tested by means of measurements. This distinguishes physics from philosophy, which IS about interpretations.
Regards, Harald
Uncle Al - 11 Nov 2007 06:50 GMT Tom Roberts wrote:
> Doug Sweetser wrote: > > The Michelson-Morley experiment shows [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of the MMX show nothing whatsoever about speed, frequency, or > wavelength; they only describe fringe positions in the interferometer. [snip]
Interpret this:
http://arXiv.org/abs/0706.2031
2007 study sensitive to 10^(-16) relative employed two simultaneous interferometers over a year's observation: Optical in Berlin, Germany at 52°31'N 13°20'E and microwave in Perth, Australia at 31°53'S 115°53'E. An aether background could never be at rest relative to both of them. Vacuum dichroism is wholly excluded.
Tell us what uncontrolled variable remains. All vectors were continuously reversed in the two measurements and rotated through a broad sweep over the days and year. MMX was sensitive to differential 10^(-8) in 1887. Do you demand that the "aether" is big whoop despite an amplitude empirically less than a tenth part-per-quadrillion relative?
-- Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Tom Roberts - 14 Nov 2007 19:14 GMT > Tom Roberts wrote: >> The Michelson-Morley experiment (MMX) [...] [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > interferometers over a year's observation [...] > Tell us what uncontrolled variable remains. Clock synchronization. It is of course _conventional_, and no physical phenomena can depend on how a human experimenter chooses to synchronize clocks. This particular experiment does not depend directly upon the synchronization of any clocks (except for gross synchronization to permit the two interferometers to be compared) -- that directly implies that this experiment cannot distinguish among theories that differ only in the way they synchronize clocks.
Every theory of the equivalence class I mentioned before is consistent with this experiment. Indeed there is a theorem that all theories of this class are experimentally indistinguishable from each other -- this is obvious because the differences among these theories are in how they synchronize their coordinate clocks. Note that SR is a member of this class [#], so there is no possible way to select SR uniquely via any experiment. As I said before, there are good theoretical reasons to prefer SR, and for this entire class of viable theories to go unnoticed in the standard curriculum.
[#] The choice of clock synchronization in SR is much simpler and far more justifiable than the others, which are rather contrived.
Zhang described an enumeration of this equivalence class (though he calls it "Edwards frames", and does not discuss the actual equivalence or its implications).
Zhang, _Special_Relativity_and_its_Experimental_Foundations_.
> Do you demand that the "aether" is big whoop [...] I never mentioned an aether, and don't know why you bring it up and attribute it to me. Except for SR, one can interpret the theories of this class as having an aether (e.g. they each have a special and unique inertial frame), but any aether of these theories is completely and utterly unobservable (so it is an "inaudible whoop" (:-)).
Tom Roberts
Peter - 12 Nov 2007 00:49 GMT Hello Rock,
Being not an expert in Geometry, I'm surprised and excited as well by your posting. For in a unifying recollection of classical physics I'm trying to extract from each historical stage as much as logically possible. I dislike the division of classical physics into mechanics and electromagnetism, and I think that Gibbs' paradox can be overcome within classical physics. (In order to avoid misunderstandings, let me add that this effort is not directed against quantum physics, see http://www.springer.com/dal/home/generic/search/results?SGWID=1-40109-22-48660032-0.
> (Of course, Galileo didn't discover that. Any sailor who's ever gone > on a downwind heading already knows all about that.) Indeed, and Huygens exploited it to derive momentum conservation during eleastic collisions
> Since affine points are relative, then the vector operations > (r,v) |-> rv, (v,w) |-> v+w [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it's actually the operative rule for affine addition, not vector > addition! Newton's parallelogram rule refers to forces / accelerations
> It's at this point, we see Newton's dilemma. Accelerations are > differentials of velocities, so they must be vectors. This seems to contradict to your explanations above :-o
> One should not, however, generalize too much. There actually are > languages where the essential unity of the concepts of motion and > stasis are explicitly recognized. For instance, in Japanese, the same > root is used for all three concepts, "to be at", "to come" and "to > go". Can cou please elucidate this in more detail? (I'm very interested in such observations as instances of Friedrich Schiller's statement "language who is doing poetry and thinking for you".)
> Just from asking the right question here, one sees that the > ramification of the relativity of motion is that points in space > cannot form an affine geometry What about Malebranche's arguing that 'rest' cannot be the limit of vanishing velocity, because 'nothing' (no motion) cannot be the limit of 'something existing' (motion)?
> For whereas the question of motion vs. rest is relative, the mere > question of whether a point at one time is the same as a point at > another time now becomes relative! The very cohesiveness of the > concept of point, when meant in the sense of a location or place > enduring in time, is lost. I hope for you that you are finding your home and family every evening ;-) What is actually relative? Is it the stability of your house?
It seems to be reasonable that you arrive at your home after work in the shortest possible way (despite of bying some food or similar things), independent of who is observing that and independent of the system of observation used, correct?
Thank you very much in advance, Peter
Gerard Westendorp - 02 Dec 2007 15:49 GMT [..]
> In either case, the problem that Newton had emerges here. If > velocities are relative, then what are positions? Even more relative? Well, you can always add a constant velocity (u) to your measured velocities, so you can add a term (x0 + u*t) to any position.
[..]
> This is a very important point that almost always passes by > unnoticed. Though it is rarely discussed explicitly, the most > important ramification of the relativity of motion cuts deep into the > very core of how we think about space, itself, and conduct our lives. Although it is always fun to think about the difference between affine space and vector space, I don't think it is really such a big deal. The machinery of physics works quite well if we just choose a reference frame, and remember in the back of our heads that we could have chosen another one if we wished.
It may not even be true: What if we one day discover that for example Lorentz symmetry is broken? It would mean that not all inertial reference frames are not exactly equivalent, so out measurements would need a specification of our absolute velocity, and maybe an absolute position.
So it is possible for an apparent affine space to be a vector space after all, we just weren't able to figure out the origin.
Gerard
Gerry Quinn - 03 Dec 2007 19:35 GMT > It may not even be true: What if we one day discover that for example > Lorentz symmetry is broken? It would mean that not all inertial > reference frames are not exactly equivalent, so out measurements would > need a specification of our absolute velocity, and maybe an absolute > position. No. We would have a velocity and/or position relative to whatever physical entity underlay the preferred reference frame.
Our discovery that Lorentz symmetry is broken would be equivalent to the discovery of such an entity.
- Gerry Quinn
Uncle Al - 04 Dec 2007 20:08 GMT Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <47508acf$0$227$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, westy31@xs4all.nl > says... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Our discovery that Lorentz symmetry is broken would be equivalent to > the discovery of such an entity. It can be more elegant than that. A vacuum pseudoscalar background would be chiral, originating in affine or teleparallel gravitation theories and spacetime torsion (Weitzenböck spacetime, A^4). It would power inflation then dilute, originate matter- antimatter imbalance, source the 100% left-handed Waek interaction, source biological homochirality of chiral L-protein amino acids and D-sugars... and be of residual amplitude inert to EM and too small to detect under any common mass distribution circumstances.
It would break Lorentz invariance, give the Equivalence Principle a parity violation, violate conservation of angular momentum for opposite parity mass distributions (anisotropic vacuum and Noether's theorem)... and be easily, cheaply, and above all equisitely detectable in a commercial analytical chemistry lab,
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2 Christmas 2007. Another day or two to finish opposite parity benzil test mass shaping and polishing, then FedEx to 45 latitude.
We've either been very clever or not. We'll see.
-- Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Rock Brentwood - 04 Dec 2007 20:08 GMT On Nov 11, 6:49 pm, Peter <end...@dekasges.de> wrote:
> > In a way we already > > acknowledge this: the so-called parallelogram rule for vector addition > > actually pertains to the 4 points, v,0,w, v - 0 + w , not just 3. So, > > it's actually the operative rule for affine addition, not vector > > addition! > Newton's parallelogram rule refers to forces / accelerations The parallelogram rule the article is referring to is the one taught in a typical 200-level Physics cource -- which is the addition rule *generally* for vectors, rather than just for the specific application Newton may have had in mind. The point being made is that this rule, though generally presented as a visualization of "vector" addition, is actually a rule for affine addition, since it involves 4 points, rather than just 3.
If Newton used the affine rule for adding accelerations, then he went against his own thinking. For, as you recall, he posed the pail experiment precisely to demonstrate that whereas the "0" of velocity may be relative, the "0" vector has physical meaning for accelerations. But, of course, as I described, he was forced to also regard velocities as vectors, too, with a meaningful "0" lest he be stuck having to try and formulate the notion of affine bundles 300+ years ahead of its time, when his grasp of calculus was barely even at the 500 level (of course, you can't blame him for that: his professor, Barrow, was only teaching at the equivalent of the 200 level in his 1664-1668 lectures and the only real Calculus text around during Newton's undergrad days -- Wallis' 1655 "Arithmetica Infinitorum" -- was bare beyond that level).
Therefore, addition of accelerations actually involves only 3 points, and it would probably be best regarded as represented by a "triangle" rule!
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