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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Research / December 2007



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Baez's Week 250, The Meaning of Relativity and Affine Spaces

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Rock Brentwood - 06 Nov 2007 20:39 GMT
This is an expansion of the reply issued back in April or May in
sci.math.research to:
This Week's Finds: Week 250
2007 April 26
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/68b6191b0c963d6d?dmode=source

A more complete version may be found under:
         http://federation.g3z.com/Physics/index.htm#TWF250

There are a lot of issue here, including a clarification of the roles
Maxwell and Lorentz in the emergence of Special Relativity (and a
clearing up of a major misconception of what Maxwell actually did and
said). There's also a novelty posed here: linking the notion of
relativity to affine and projective spaces, and linking the genesis of
the space-time concept to none other than the principle of relativity,
itself!

  "Well, even though I can't allow you to move the sun through the
   skies, what I can do is to stop the sky."
   -- Untold Story of Phaeton (what *really* happened)
      http://federation.g3z.com/FedSeries/FourthWave/Phaeton%20Myth.htm

>From the original Week 250 article ...

"Right now I'm in a country estate called Les Treilles in southern
France, at a conference organized by Alexei Grinbaum and Michel
Bitbol:
1) Philosophical and Formal Foundations of Modern Physics,
http://www-drecam.cea.fr/Phocea/Vie_des_labos/Ast/ast_visu.php?id_ast=762"

"Okay - now for our Tale.  I want to explain double cosets as spans of
groupoids... but it's best if I start with some special relativity."

[...]

"Though Newton to have believed in some form of "absolute space",  the
idea that motion is relative predates Einstein by a long time..."

(Foray into the concept of classical Galilean Relativity and the
Poincare' Relativity of special Relativity)

These following are my comments relating to the original, a few parts
kept intact.

Though Newton is said to have believed in some form of absolute space,
the idea that motion is relative predates Einstein by a long time. In
1632, in his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo
wrote:
(To paraphrase, since the original comment was in Baez' article):
"In a deckhold of a large steady-going vessel, it looks and feels like
you're standing still, the same as when you're ashore."

(Of course, Galileo didn't discover that. Any sailor who's ever gone
on a downwind heading already knows all about that.)

As a result, the coordinate transformation we use in Newtonian
mechanics to switch from one reference frame to another moving at a
constant velocity relative to the first is called a Galilei
transformation. For example:
    (t, x, y, y) --> (t, x + vt, y, z).

The problem Newton had with the concept can be more clearly understood
if put in modern perspective. When we say motion is relative, what
we're actually saying is that there is no distinguished 0 for
velocity. In a typical Physics course, we are taught to regard
velocity as a vector. But the absence of a distinguished origin is
precisely what differentiates a vector space from an affine geometry!
Thus, what we are actually saying, when we say that motion is
relative, is that velocities are not vectors at all, but are points in
an affine space [and that the present-day Earth-bound civilization is
not yet advanced enough to fully understand and fully accommodate the
notion of relativity.]

One can go further, in fact, and treat velocities as points not just
in an affine space, but projective space, if we also include the
infinite velocities. Though worth mentioning, we won't actually do
this here, and will only make brief reference to it below when
explaining the difference between Galilean relativity and special
relativity.

In either case, the problem that Newton had emerges here. If
velocities are relative, then what are positions? Even more relative?

Since affine points are relative, then the vector operations
  (r,v) |-> rv, (v,w) |-> v+w
now have to be replaced by affine operations
  (r,o,v) |-> (1-r)o + rv, (o,v,w) |-> v-o+w
with the vector operations recast so as to make the origin explicit,
rv = (1- r)0 + rv and v + w = v - 0 + w . In a way we already
acknowledge this: the so-called parallelogram rule for vector addition
actually pertains to the 4 points, v,0,w, v - 0 + w , not just 3. So,
it's actually the operative rule for affine addition, not vector
addition!

The difference of affine points, however, can still be considered a
vector. Indeed, that is the very genesis of the concept. Vector, in
Latin, means to carry or transport. So the arrow depicting a vector
has a head h and tail t corresponding to the 2 affine points
respectively situated, and the vector itself is their difference h -
t . It is visually represented by drawing an arrow from point t to
point h .

It's at this point, we see Newton's dilemma. Accelerations are
differentials of velocities, so they must be vectors. In particular, a
distinguished 0 has meaning for acceleration. But, if vector
accelerations are the differentials of affine velocities, then affine
velocities are differentials of what? That is, how does one complete
the analogy,
  (acceleration):(velocity) = (velocity):(position);
that is,
  (vector):(affine) = (affine):(???).

Classically, positions are treated as points in a Euclidean geometry
-- that is as points in an affine geometry. But if positions are
affine points, then their differences would be vectors, and velocities
would not be affine at all, but vectors!

This was the dilemma Newton faced. There was simply nothing in the
vocabulary of the time to complete the analogy above. That is, the
question
     The differential of (???) is an affine point
could not be resolved.

This is a very important point that almost always passes by
unnoticed.  Though it is rarely discussed explicitly, the most
important ramification of the relativity of motion cuts deep into the
very core of how we think about space, itself, and conduct our lives.

The relativity of motion means an even more relative relativity of
position. In particular, if it is relative whether one is standing
still "at a point" or moving, then the very question of whether that
point at an earlier time is the "same place" or "different place" as
that at a later time is, itself, relative. For instance, the very
question of whether the World Trade Center in 2001 in New York is the
"same place" as the hallowed ground commemorated in succeeding
Septembers, itself, becomes relative! After all, the Earth is moving
around the Sun and is rotating around its axis. The Sun is moving
around the center of the Milky Way galaxy and the galaxy is moving
toward the Great Attractor. So, is the "same place" even on Earth at
all, or is it somewhere in the middle of outer space where the "Earth
was"? The answer is: it's relative.

Thus, the very underpinning of such hallowed ceremonies as memorials
-- one of the major foundations of everyday life -- is undercut at its
very root. So, though people may "know" that motion is relative, their
lives have not actually accommodated that principle. And even
unbeknownst to themselves, they actually do not know that motion is
relative!

One should not, however, generalize too much. There actually are
languages where the essential unity of the concepts of motion and
stasis are explicitly recognized. For instance, in Japanese, the same
root is used for all three concepts, "to be at", "to come" and "to
go".

The underlying problem, of course, is that humans are still currently
an Earth-bound race and so are caught in the warp of an "absolute
space" frame of mind fixed on the Earth, as if the surface of the
planet were a Cosmic Floor. In the near future, as this civilization
evolves from a 2-dimensional geography into the 3-dimensional
cosmography of a spacefaring civilization, the relativity of the
sameness of position will bear more directly on peoples' experiences.

The more adventurous sorts will refer back home to the "Earthlubbers
who still think places are fixed, are stuck in their Real World and
are out of touch with the Real Cosmos".

Just from asking the right question here, one sees that the
ramification of the relativity of motion is that points in space
cannot form an affine geometry

For whereas the question of motion vs. rest is relative, the mere
question of whether a point at one time is the same as a point at
another time now becomes relative! The very cohesiveness of the
concept of point, when meant in the sense of a location or place
enduring in time, is lost.

In place of "point", one needs to adopt a new primitive that runs
deeper: a "place at a given time" or, what is known in the parlance of
modern Physics, an "event". This is actually what makes the concept of
space-time necessary, in place of space and time.

Thus, we see here that the true genesis of the space-time concept is
the *Galilean* principle of relativity, not Minkowski, and the
necessity of the concept goes all the way back to Galileo, not
Einstein, Lorentz or Minkowski.

So, what is the anti-differential of an affine space? A more general
type of geometry whose points are "events" and where the space of
velocities at each point is an affine space. In modern language, this
is known as an Affine Bundle. It is the concept that had been absent
in the time of Newton and is what made necessary the expedient Newton
took with his concept of "absolute space" in order to make it possible
to properly establish a geometric foundation for his physics.

Now, skipping ahead a couple centuries past Galileo and Newton...

By the time Maxwell came up with his equations describing light, the
idea of relativity of motion was well established.

In 1876, he wrote:
(to paraphrase, since the original comments are in the Baez article)
"In space, they can't hear you scream. There are no landmarks. Not for
position, not for time, nor even for your motion."

However, the terrestrial frame of mind still pervaded Maxwell's
thinking and the concept underlying these remarks (notwithstanding the
intellectual awareness of it) had not been fully assimilated. In fact,
the theory he posed in his treatise even undercut his own remarks
here! One of the more significant deficits of Maxwell's treatise is
the absence of a comprehensive analysis of the effect of a change in
the frame of reference on the equations defining the theory he laid
out. There was a strong tendency, in particular, to refer everything
to a fixed ground frame.

This actually made it harder to fully appreciate and understand one of
the more important, but little-remembered, features of Maxwell's
theory: his equations were still Galilean invariant. This invariance
was achieved, by breaking the relativity of motion, hypothesizing the
existence of a universal velocity G . The frame where G = 0 was then
the frame where light propagation would take place in a sphere on a
fixed center. The breaking of relativity was brought in by, what in
modern terms, would be relations of the following forms
  D = epsilon_0 (E + GxB), B = mu_0 (H - GxD)
between the two sets of fields. In actuality, Maxwel's E is equivalent
to what we would now call E + GxB , since he posed the following
equation between the field and potential:
  E = -del phi - dA/dt + GxB
whereas, today, we just write
  E = -del phi - dA/dt.

Because Maxwell never carried out a complete analysis, he never fully
discerned the necessity of the second relation
  B = mu_0 (H - GxD),
though the - GxD term had been mentioned by Heaviside in a posthumous
footnote.

It is an unfortunate circumstance in timing that Maxwell's treatise
came out only in time to quote figures for light speed of accuracy of
100,000 km/hour. For, this put the quotes just outside the threshold
where one could begin to discern G from the Earth's motion.

And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame
of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated
the principle of relativity into his own thought, he never even raised
the question of what effect the motion of the Earth would have on the
measurement of light speed!

Needless to say, it eventually reached the point where the uncertainty
of the figures quoted for light speed fell under the magic threshold
of the Earth's orbital speed. So, by the 1880's it gradually became
apparent that no motion could be discerned at all, and that it was as
if every frame of reference had G = 0 !

Eventually, this led to the modification of the two constitutive laws
by Lorentz to the form
  D = epsilon_0 E, B = mu_0 H.
Consequently, the theory that presently goes under the name of
"Maxwell's Theory" and the equations under the name "Maxwell's
Equations" are actually a hybrid creation of Maxwell and Lorentz and,
in earlier times, had been known as Maxwell-Lorentz theory or the
Maxwell-Lorentz equations to make this distinction explicit.

This is the true genesis of what came to be known as Special
Relativity, though it was not properly appreciated at the time as
such. What's significant about this turn of events is that it
repudiates Maxwell's own repudiation of relativity! It reasserts the
relativity of motion -- but now in a difference guise.

The contrast between the two forms of relativity is not too difficult
to explain: whereas relativity under Galileo had entailed that
infinity is an absolute speed, relativity under Maxwell-Lorentz theory
entails that a finite speed -- the speed at which light travels -- is
absolute.

That is, under changes of reference in the physics of Galileo and
Newton, an infinite velocity remains an infinite velocity. This is
actually what justifies treating velocities there as merely points in
an affine space, rather than points in a projective space. We can
distinguish an invariant "plane at infinity" in the geometry
comprising velocities in Newtonian/Galilean physics.

In contrast, in a change in frame of reference under a form of
relativity consistent with the Maxwell-Lorentz theory, light speed
remains the same. The roles are reversed. While light speed is now
absolute, it's now infinity that is a relative speed. Under a change
in frame of reference, an infinite speed transforms into a faster-
than- light speed.

As a consequence of the revised principle of relativity, it is as if G
= 0 were true in every frame of reference, so the G is superfluous. It
is for this reason that the alphabet soup that Maxwell had devised: A
(magnetic potential), B (magnetic induction), C (total current), D
(electric displacement), E (electric intensity), F (force density), H
(magnetic intensity), I (magnetization) and J (current) now has a hole
in it where the letter G used to be.

So, the big deal about special relativity is not that motion is
relative. The principle of relativity goes much deeper back to Galileo
and had already been present. Rather, it's that it is possible to
assert the relativity principle while keeping the speed of light the
same for everyone - as the modern form of Maxwell's equations insist,
and as we indeed see! In place of Galilean transformations, which
leave infinite velocities invariant, we have Lorentz transformations,
which leave motions at light speed invariant.

Making infinite speeds relative means the same thing as making
simultaneity relative. Think about this for a while: two events are
simultaneous, precisely one would need to go at infinite speed to get
from one event to the other. Since infinite speed is absolute in
Newtonian physics, then so is the simultaneity of events. Thus, it is
possible to attach a clock time to every single event in such a way
that two events have the same time precisely when they are
simultaneous. This labeling of events by time is, then, independent of
reference frame.

In popularizations this feature is couched by the unnecessarily vague
and misleading term "absolute time".

In contrast, under the relativity of Maxwell-Lorentz theory, infinity
is a relative speed. Consequently, two events deemed simultaneous in
one frame of reference are not so under a change in frame of
reference! This is what forced people to replace Galilei
transformations by "Lorentz transformations", whose most important
distinguishing feature is that two coordinate systems moving relative
to each other will disagree not just on where things are, but when
they are.

As Einstein wrote in 1905:
(To paraphrase)
"We can take G = 0 in all frames AND consistently assert a (new form)
of relativity for motion; thus allowing us to take, unchanged,
Maxwell's theory in a 'stationary frame' to one for arbitrary moving
frames."

Einstein, himself, was not fully cognizant of the distinction between
Maxwell's older theory and the then more recent Maxwell-Lorentz
theory, and so thought he was correcting an internal discrepancy
latent in Maxwell's theory, itself.

But once the fog of war from that time period is lifted, we see that
what he was actually doing was removing the discrepancy between
Maxwell and Lorentz from the Maxwell-Lorentz theory. What he was
referring to is that one can, indeed, remove Maxwell's hypothesis of a
universal velocity G , and assert the constitutive law
  D = epsilon_0 E, B = mu_0 H
in every frame of reference, as if G = 0 were true in each one,
precisely as Lorentz had said could be done. Only he didn't try to
force-fit it into Galilean relativity, as Lorentz had been trying to
do up to then.

So, what really changed with the advent of special relativity? First,
our understanding of precisely which transformations count as
symmetries of spacetime. These transformations form a group. Before
special relativity, it seemed the relevant group was a 10-dimensional
gadget consisting of:
* 3 dimensions of spatial translations
* 1 dimension of time translations
* 3 dimensions of rotations
* 3 dimensions of Galilei transformations
Nowadays this is called the Galilei group.

With special relativity, the relevant group became the Poincare'
group:
* 3 dimensions of spatial translations
* 1 dimension of time translations
* 3 dimensions of rotations
* 3 dimensions of Lorentz transformations
It's still 10-dimensional, not any bigger. [Actually: smaller. See
following note] But, it acts differently as transformations of the
spacetime coordinates
  (t, x, y, z) .

(Note: Actually, it's smaller. A deeper analysis of the Galilei group
uncovers the need for an 11th degree of symmetry. The passage from
Galilei to Poincare' involves mixing this extra degree of symmetry
with the Galilean notion of time translation to give us the Poincare'
notion of time translation. In fact, to define a consistent limiting
relation for Poincare' -> Galilei, one needs to add an 11th parameter
to Poincare'!)

Another thing that changed was our appreciation of the importance of
symmetry! Before the 20th century, group theory was not in the toolkit
of most theoretical physicists. Now it is.

Okay. Now suppose you're the only thing in the universe, floating in
empty space, not rotating. To make your stay in this thought
experiment a pleasant one, I'll give you a space suit. And for
simplicity, suppose special relativity holds true exactly, with no
gravitational fields to warp the geometry of spacetime.

Would the universe be any different if you were moving at constant
velocity? Or translated 2 feet to the left or right? Or turned
around?  Or if it were one day later?

No! Not in any observable way, at least! It would seem exactly the
same.

Unlike the Earth, the vacuum of outer space does not have, in and of
itself, fixed landmarks, just as Maxwell had described. Where but for
the presence of stars, planets and other celestial bodies, your
sojourn into space would be the very definition of Lost. Like the
stagnantly-unchanging homogeneous residential district in the working
class neighborhood of a Communist-era nation, it would look so much
the same everywhere, with the landscape filled with buildings and
apartments that can barely be distinguished from one another and look
the same from year to year, that you wouldn't be able to find your way
around and wouldn't even know what year it was!

So in this situation, it doesn't really make much sense to say "where
you are", or "which way you're facing", or "what time it is".

Spacetime is actually more deadening, still. You could run away from
the Communist state (or try), and it would look like it's receding
from you. You can distinguish being stuck in it from getting out of
it. In contrast, the vacuum has no reference velocity (notwithstanding
Maxwell or Newton's assertions to the contrary). Therefore, you can't
even tell if you're moving anywhere or standing still.

The remainder of the discussion can be found both in the Baez article
and the discussion whose link is posted at the top of the article.
harry - 07 Nov 2007 16:21 GMT
> This is an expansion of the reply issued back in April or May in
> sci.math.research to:
[...]

Here one little correction to this very interesting overview:

> And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame
> of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated
> the principle of relativity into his own thought, he never even raised
> the question of what effect the motion of the Earth would have on the
> measurement of light speed!

Maxwell certainly raised that question and even discussed it. Apparently it
was Maxwell who gave suggestions for such experiments as that by
Michelson-Morley.
http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath241/kmath241.htm
Of course, it would be rather unreasonable to expect from Maxwell, at that
time, to account for all the possible effects. :-)

Regards,
Harald
Rock Brentwood - 02 Dec 2007 22:30 GMT
> > And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame
> > of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> was Maxwell who gave suggestions for such experiments as that by
> Michelson-Morley.http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath241/kmath241.htm

To me, that's a large correction -- I wasn't aware of Maxwell's post-
treatise activities -- or at least I assume this was follow-up by him
post-dating the treatise. I didn't see any specific cites in your
article: where and when did Maxwell write on the issue?

I'll make the appropriate updates.

> Of course, it would be rather unreasonable to expect from Maxwell, at that time, to account for all the possible effects. :-)

Once you postulate that the vacuum is an active dielectric medium
(which maxwell did, so that he could write a non-trivial (D = epsilon
E) relation in order to smear out the self-force infinity), then the
question naturally arises: what are the products of the electric
polarization of the vacuum? And what dynamics governs the generation
of opposite charges from the vacuum?

The other issue raised in the article: the nature of velocity. True
enough, in a Newton-Cartan spacetime one has infinity as an invariant
speed, so that an invariant plane at infinity can be distinguished.
Thus, it is justified to treat velocities as residing in an affine
space, rather than in a projective space. However, since infinity is a
relative speed under the Lorentz group, then one is forced to bring in
the entirety of projective space. Then the space-time is modelled not
as an affine bundle, but as a projective bundle.

There were two other interesting points raised in the article,
tacitly, not commonly seen. Space-time is the manifold of events, each
representing a point at an instant. This gives one a different
interpretation, more directly connected to kinematics, of the tangent
space. This is the space of all tangents of worldlines that meet a
given even. Each tangent characterizes a velocity. Thus, the tangent
space is NOT a flat-space approximation of the manifold of EVENTS, but
a PRECISE description of the linear space of VELOCITIES! The "flat-
space" metric is then just the metric characterizing the space where
the velocities live.

This serves to underscore the point raised about relativity: there is
no zero to velocity, so the tangent spaces have to be regarded as
affine (or projective), not just as vector spaces. The manifold is
therefore an affine bundle (or projective bundle), not simply a
manifold.

The second major point is that this then sets one up to make the
appropriate distinctions between the different causal structures and
formulate a GEOMETRIC equivalence principle. That is, one postulates
that the affine (or projective) bundle can be reduced further to a
bundle of frames "orthonormal" with respect to the "flat-space"
metric. A Newton-Cartan spacetime, for instance, would have a
geometric Equivalence Principle which raises the metric eta_{mn} =
diag(1,0,0,0) and dual metric eta^{mn} = diag(0,1,1,1) to prominence,
whereas the Lorentzian Equivalence Principle specifies orthonormality
of the frame bundle with respect to the metric eta_{mn} = diag(1,-1/
c^2,-1/c^2,-1/c^2) and dual eta^{mn} = diag(-1/c^2,1,1,1) -- thus also
allowing one to equate them as one anothers' inverses by suitable
rescaling.

The "affine" or "projective" spaces therefore have the additional
structure of an "affinized" inner product. Whereas the vector space
inner product (u,v) |-> <u,v> is a function of 2 vectors, an affinized
inner product (u,O,v) |-> <u-O,v-O> is a function of the 3 points
forming an angle uOv (with its value being the area of the
parallelogram formed by the points u,O,v,u-O+v). So, then, the
character of the inner product distinguishes the type of spacetime one
has. At the opposite extreme, one could even formulate an equivalence
principle for an Aristotolean space, where the metric eta_{mn} =
diag(0,1,1,1) and dual metric eta^{mn} = diag(1,0,0,0).

For tangent spaces as vector spaces, the frames have GL(4) symmetry,
which reduces to the SO(3,1) bundle of Lorentz orthonormal frames. The
manifolds of these groups are, respectively, S_3 x PS_3 x R^10 and
PS_3 x R^3, leading to the quotient space S_3 x R^7, which is the 10-
dimensional space where Lorentzian metrics resides.

The metrics are actually labels for VACUUM SECTORS for the symmetry
breaking GL(4) -> SO(3,1) -- this is the essential statement of the
geometric form of the Equivalence Principle. (Quantum theorists, then,
take note: this states that each different value of the metric
identifies a different coherent subspaces, so that no two metric
states have coherent superpositions and the metric is essentially
classical!)

(This, in fact, is the foundation of Sardanashvily's formulation of
gravity as a symmetry-breaking field. He further argued that this
symmetry breaking, in fact, is not merely a nice postulate to add on
to the structure of a bare manifold, but is made into a necessity by
the presence of fermions.)

All the above extends by analogy to the affine spaces GL(4):SO(3,1) =
GA(4):Poincare'.

But now ... if one goes further to the projective spaces, what is the
analogy here? GL(4):SO(3,1) = GA(4):Poincare' =
(???):Conformal=SO(4,2)?

What is the "projectivization" of GL(4)? And what symmetry group does
the "tangent space" of the projective bundle satisfy?
harry - 17 Dec 2007 16:28 GMT
I had overlooked this reply; for the record the following precision:

>> > And because he was still fixed in the terrestrial "Earthlubbing" frame
>> > of mind, and because Maxwell had in fact not sufficiently incorporated
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I'll make the appropriate updates.

I don't know on what the author of math pages based his assertion.
However, according to Lorentz (1892, "De relatieve beweging van de aarde en
den aether", Verslagen der zittingen ... vol.I, p.74-97), "Maxwell had
already remarked that if the aether doesn't move along, the motion of the
earth must have an influence on the time that light requires to go back and
forth between two fixed, with the earth connected points." (translation
mine).
Regretfully, Lorentz did not provide a reference.

Regards,
Harald
Doug Sweetser - 07 Nov 2007 20:47 GMT
Hello:

The emphasis on the relativity of special relativity is a common
technique I dislike.  Special relativity is equally about what is
conserved.  To get any handle on these issue, both what is relative
and what is conserved must be clearly stated.  Measurements of time
and distances between events in spacetime are relative, but the
interval between them is not.  The Michelson-Morley experiment shows
that the speed of light is constant, but the frequency and wavelength
are not.  I don't think there is any way to understand special
relativity unless equal air time is given to invariants as is given to
measurements that are relative.  The Museum of Science in Boston
omitted the balancing notion in a recent exhibit.

I didn't know about Maxwell's G factor, neat.

doug
Oz - 08 Nov 2007 17:18 GMT
Doug Sweetser <dougsweetser@gmail.com> writes
>The
>Michelson-Morley experiment shows that the speed of light is constant, but
>the frequency and wavelength are not.  I don't think there is any way to
>understand special relativity unless equal air time is given to invariants
>as is given to measurements that are relative.

Yes.

However when I pointed this out some years ago, it met with a resounding
silence. I would have thought at least a brief discussion would have
been in order. It would appear to mean that we have a ruler (a specific
light beam) agreed by all observers, which you would have thought was
handy.

I am also somewhat baffled by the comment about 'simultaneous events'
being different for different observers. This is always said with great
gravitas, as if it were remarkable, but unless I am missing something
profound its to be expected since the only simultaneous events must
happen at the same place and the same time, which is trivial. Trying to
work out what I seem to have missed still somewhat baffles me.

Signature

Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Doug Sweetser - 09 Nov 2007 15:47 GMT
Hello Oz:

It looks like your slightly scrabble the eggs.  Let's make sure we
clearly state what are the invariants, and what are covariants.  The
word "covariant" means we all know how it changes, and because it
changes, it is not an invariant.

When measuring the speed of light, the speed of light is an invariant,
and the frequency and wavelengths of light are covariant.  Measuring
the speed of something that has mass is covariant (oops, I am not sure
of the invariant).

For events, the interval tau is invariant (tau^2 = dt^2 - (dx/c)^2)
but the measurement of time and the measurement of space are
covariant.

The way I read this phrase:

> "we have a ruler (a specific light beam) agreed by all observers"

it sounds like a measurement of space in invariant, which it is not,
it is covariant.  One could set up a blinking beacon, and then the
interval of these blinks, tau^2 = dt^2 - (dx/c)^2, would be an
invariant agreed by all observers.

When events happen in spacetime at exactly the same time, we say it is
simultaneous.  For many other observers, they will also agree that the
events happened at the same time.  This large group of other observers
happen to have very small relative velocity to each other.  Think of a
soccer match when everyone cheers simultaneously because of a goal.
All of our experience with the order of events dictates the events are
a completely ordered set: this event happened before that event, or
this event happened at the same time as that one.  All observers with
a small relative velocity will agree with all the orderings you
provide.

What is remarkable is that there are super-zippy observers - say folks
surfing on cosmic rays - who will think that one cheer from fan A
happen before the cheer from fan B, while another surfer traveling a
different super-zippy speed will say B cheered before A.  This happens
if events A and B do not live inside either one's future or past light
cone, which is what happens if there is an observer that says dt=0.

There is some split-brain thinking to all this business.  Should I
consider the wall in front of me to be in my future light cone, or as
existing simultaneous to me, and thus not in my future light cone?  If
I walk into the wall, the wall had to be in my future light cone so I
could walk into it in a finite speed.  The wall does appear to be
existing just fine independent of me at exactly the same time.  If the
wall is there at exactly the same time, then I have a spacelike
separation.  This makes me sound like a politician, trying to have
both a spacelike and timelike relationship with other objects in the
Universe.  Being confused about issues like this is a good sign.

doug
harry - 11 Nov 2007 06:50 GMT
> Doug Sweetser <dougsweetser@gmail.com> writes
>>The
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> light beam) agreed by all observers, which you would have thought was
> handy.

It's rather well discussed in much of the literature - even since 1906 -
that the spacetime intervals of Poincare and Minkowski are invariant.
Still, what we are usually interested in is what we directly measure in
the lab, such as clock time periods.

> I am also somewhat baffled by the comment about 'simultaneous events'
> being different for different observers. This is always said with great
> gravitas, as if it were remarkable, but unless I am missing something
> profound its to be expected since the only simultaneous events must
> happen at the same place and the same time, which is trivial. Trying to
> work out what I seem to have missed still somewhat baffles me.

Indeed, there is nothing profound about relativity of simultaneity, and
it was already discussed in the 19th century. However, it's often
stressed because it's all too easily overlooked or forgotten - leading
to huge errors and misconceptions.

Regards,
Harald
Tom Roberts - 09 Nov 2007 18:54 GMT
> The Michelson-Morley experiment shows
> that the speed of light is constant, but the frequency and wavelength
> are not.

The Michelson-Morley experiment (MMX) actually shows nothing of the
sort. It merely shows that for a Michelson interferometer on earth the
fringe positions are independent of orientation. All else is
INTERPRETATION, not actual experimental results. The actual measurements
of the MMX show nothing whatsoever about speed, frequency, or
wavelength; they only describe fringe positions in the interferometer.

Such interpretations inherently depend on which theory is used, and
using different theories one can interpret the MMX results (for light on
earth) as either:
 A) the speed of light is independent of orientation, as is the
    wavelength from a given source
 B) the speed of light varies with orientation in precisely such a
    manner that the fringes don't shift
 C) the speed and wavelength of light vary with orientation in
    precisely such a manner that the fringes don't shift
 D) ... surely other interpretations are possible ...

Of course the MMX is not the only relevant experiment, and when combined
with the hundreds of other experimental tests of SR, one finds that the
only known theories that are not refuted by one or more of them are all
experimentally indistinguishable from SR. But within that equivalence
class [#] the various theories have INTERPRETATIONS corresponding to
(A), (B), and (C) above for the MMX (SR of course is (A)).

    [#] These theories differ from SR in that the one-way
    speed of light varies with orientation and frame, in such
    a manner that the round-trip speed of light is isotropically
    c in every inertial frame. The one-way speed of light is not
    observable independent of a convention for synchronizing
    clocks, and the different theories naturally use different
    conventions for their coordinate clocks. Physical clocks,
    of course, are synchronized via a convention selected by
    the experimenter, and when that is included in the analysis
    all theories of this class give identical predictions.

There are a number of reasons why SR is the only theory of this
equivalence class that is well known. The primary one is the underlying
Lorentz symmetry of SR, which no other member of this class obeys as a
fundamental symmetry.

> I don't think there is any way to understand special
> relativity unless equal air time is given to invariants as is given to
> measurements that are relative.

Yes, invariants are extremely important in relativity, and indeed in all
of physics (e.g. compare Lagrangian mechanics with Newtonian). The
Lorentz symmetry of SR is a powerful statement about invariants.

Oz wrote:
> It would appear to mean that we have a ruler (a specific
> light beam) agreed by all observers, which you would have thought was
> handy.

A light beam is not a ruler. It requires selection of one of the valid
theories from that equivalence class to construct a ruler out of a light
beam. For most of those theories the resulting "ruler" will vary
strongly with orientation (if you use the one-way speed of light to
construct the "ruler").

> I am also somewhat baffled by the comment about 'simultaneous events'
> being different for different observers. This is always said with great
> gravitas, as if it were remarkable, but unless I am missing something
> profound its to be expected since the only simultaneous events must
> happen at the same place and the same time, which is trivial. Trying to
> work out what I seem to have missed still somewhat baffles me.

This is mere words -- "simultaneous" can mean whatever one wants it to mean.

The underlying issue is how to construct a coordinate system in an
inertial frame which is self-consistent and orthogonal. It is found that
events which share a given value of the time coordinate of frame A will
be a different locus in spacetime from those which share a common value
of the time coordinate in frame B. The usual meaning for "simultaneous
in frame A" is that such events share a given value of Frame A's time
coordinate, when the coordinates are orthogonal. That is, such a
coordinate system will extend your restricted meaning of "simultaneous"
above to any spatial location of the relevant inertial frame, but not to
any other frame.

Note that much of the confusion about relativity is generated by
imprecise definitions and descriptions. Compared to GR, SR is simple in
this regard. Compared to some future theory of quantum gravity, I
strongly suspect that GR is simple in this regard....

Tom Roberts
Doug Sweetser - 11 Nov 2007 06:50 GMT
Hello Tom:

Sounds like you are well-versed in the lore of the Michelson-Morley
experiment, which you refer to as MMX.  Still what you write does not
sound right to my ear.  The speed is equal to the wavelength times the
frequency, or

   c = lambda nu

What I said was the speed c is observed to be an invariant, and both
the wavelength lambda and frequency nu depend on relative velocities,
and are thus covariant quantities.  Although I am not verse in the
experimental proofs, I am sure it has been shown many times that the
wavelength and frequency obey the relativistic Doppler shift equation
to all levels of precision measured to date.

You wrote:

>   A) the speed of light is independent of orientation, as is the
>      wavelength from a given source
..
>   C) the speed and wavelength of light vary with orientation in
>      precisely such a manner that the fringes don't shift

This make it sound like the speed and wavelength behave similarly,
which they do not.  There is also no reference to the frequency which
in an equation that involves only three players is a significant
omission.

doug
harry - 14 Nov 2007 19:14 GMT
>> The Michelson-Morley experiment shows
>> that the speed of light is constant, but the frequency and wavelength
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nothing whatsoever about speed, frequency, or wavelength; they only
> describe fringe positions in the interferometer.

Indeed, the MMX only showed that the theory of that time was wrong.

> Such interpretations inherently depend on which theory is used, and using
> different theories one can interpret the MMX results (for light on earth)
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> class [#] the various theories have INTERPRETATIONS corresponding to (A),
> (B), and (C) above for the MMX (SR of course is (A)).

Good explanation, but sorry, that last addition is also not correct.
Special relativity is NOT natural philosophy. Instead, it's a principle
theory concerning laws of physics, and those are about OBSERVABLES (or
phenomena). Lorentz and Einstein agreed on Special Relativity, exactly
because it doesn't contain any metaphysics - it's based on observables
only. For example "the speed of light" is defined with a specific
measurement procedure. Change that definition and the descriptions
change accordingly - but that is by convention.

Janssen puts it as follows:
the principle theory [...] only gives constraints on possible models of
physical reality on the basis of judiciously chosen general features of
the phenomena.
http://www.pitt.edu/~philpart/Abstracts/2002_03Abstracts/Abstract_Janssen_3-21-03.htm

Physicists agree to disagree about interpretations of observables, since
those cannot be tested by means of measurements. This distinguishes
physics from philosophy, which IS about interpretations.

Regards,
Harald
Uncle Al - 11 Nov 2007 06:50 GMT
Tom Roberts wrote:

> Doug Sweetser wrote:
> > The Michelson-Morley experiment shows
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> of the MMX show nothing whatsoever about speed, frequency, or
> wavelength; they only describe fringe positions in the interferometer.
[snip]

Interpret this:

http://arXiv.org/abs/0706.2031

2007 study sensitive to 10^(-16) relative employed two simultaneous
interferometers over a year's observation: Optical in Berlin, Germany
at 52°31'N 13°20'E and microwave in Perth, Australia at 31°53'S
115°53'E.  An aether background could never be at rest relative to both
of them.  Vacuum dichroism is wholly excluded.

Tell us what uncontrolled variable remains.  All vectors were
continuously reversed in the two measurements and rotated through a
broad sweep over the days and year.  MMX was sensitive to differential
10^(-8) in 1887.
Do you demand that the "aether" is big whoop despite an amplitude
empirically less than a tenth part-per-quadrillion relative?

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Tom Roberts - 14 Nov 2007 19:14 GMT
> Tom Roberts wrote:
>> The Michelson-Morley experiment (MMX) [...]
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> interferometers over a year's observation [...]
> Tell us what uncontrolled variable remains.

Clock synchronization. It is of course _conventional_, and no physical
phenomena can depend on how a human experimenter chooses to synchronize
clocks. This particular experiment does not depend directly upon the
synchronization of any clocks (except for gross synchronization to
permit the two interferometers to be compared) -- that directly implies
that this experiment cannot distinguish among theories that differ only
in the way they synchronize clocks.

Every theory of the equivalence class I mentioned before is consistent
with this experiment. Indeed there is a theorem that all theories of
this class are experimentally indistinguishable from each other -- this
is obvious because the differences among these theories are in how they
synchronize their coordinate clocks. Note that SR is a member of this
class [#], so there is no possible way to select SR uniquely via any
experiment. As I said before, there are good theoretical reasons to
prefer SR, and for this entire class of viable theories to go unnoticed
in the standard curriculum.

    [#] The choice of clock synchronization in SR is much
    simpler and far more justifiable than the others, which
    are rather contrived.

Zhang described an enumeration of this equivalence class (though he
calls it "Edwards frames", and does not discuss the actual equivalence
or its implications).

    Zhang, _Special_Relativity_and_its_Experimental_Foundations_.

> Do you demand that the "aether" is big whoop [...]

I never mentioned an aether, and don't know why you bring it up and
attribute it to me. Except for SR, one can interpret the theories of
this class as having an aether (e.g. they each have a special and unique
inertial frame), but any aether of these theories is completely and
utterly unobservable (so it is an "inaudible whoop" (:-)).

Tom Roberts
Peter - 12 Nov 2007 00:49 GMT
Hello Rock,

Being not an expert in Geometry, I'm surprised and excited as well by
your posting. For in a unifying recollection of classical physics I'm
trying to extract from each historical stage as much as logically
possible. I dislike the division of classical physics into mechanics
and electromagnetism, and I think that Gibbs' paradox can be overcome
within classical physics. (In order to avoid misunderstandings, let me
add that this effort is not directed against quantum physics, see
http://www.springer.com/dal/home/generic/search/results?SGWID=1-40109-22-48660032-0.

> (Of course, Galileo didn't discover that. Any sailor who's ever gone
> on a downwind heading already knows all about that.)

Indeed, and Huygens exploited it to derive momentum conservation
during eleastic collisions

> Since affine points are relative, then the vector operations
>    (r,v) |-> rv, (v,w) |-> v+w
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> it's actually the operative rule for affine addition, not vector
> addition!

Newton's parallelogram rule refers to forces / accelerations

> It's at this point, we see Newton's dilemma. Accelerations are
> differentials of velocities, so they must be vectors.

This seems to contradict to your explanations above :-o

> One should not, however, generalize too much. There actually are
> languages where the essential unity of the concepts of motion and
> stasis are explicitly recognized. For instance, in Japanese, the same
> root is used for all three concepts, "to be at", "to come" and "to
> go".

Can cou please elucidate this in more detail? (I'm very interested in
such observations as instances of Friedrich Schiller's statement
"language who is doing poetry and thinking for you".)

> Just from asking the right question here, one sees that the
> ramification of the relativity of motion is that points in space
> cannot form an affine geometry

What about Malebranche's arguing that 'rest' cannot be the limit of
vanishing velocity, because 'nothing' (no motion) cannot be the limit
of 'something existing' (motion)?

> For whereas the question of motion vs. rest is relative, the mere
> question of whether a point at one time is the same as a point at
> another time now becomes relative! The very cohesiveness of the
> concept of point, when meant in the sense of a location or place
> enduring in time, is lost.

I hope for you that you are finding your home and family every
evening ;-)
What is actually relative?
Is it the stability of your house?

It seems to be reasonable that you arrive at your home after work in
the shortest possible way (despite of bying some food or similar
things), independent of who is observing that and independent of the
system of observation used, correct?

Thank you very much in advance,
Peter
Gerard Westendorp - 02 Dec 2007 15:49 GMT
[..]

> In either case, the problem that Newton had emerges here. If
> velocities are relative, then what are positions? Even more relative?

Well, you can always add a constant velocity (u) to your measured
velocities, so you can add a term (x0 + u*t) to any position.

[..]

> This is a very important point that almost always passes by
> unnoticed.  Though it is rarely discussed explicitly, the most
> important ramification of the relativity of motion cuts deep into the
> very core of how we think about space, itself, and conduct our lives.

Although it is always fun to think about the difference between affine
space and vector space, I don't think it is really such a big deal. The
machinery of physics works quite well if we just choose a reference
frame, and remember in the back of our heads that we could have chosen
another one if we wished.

It may not even be true: What if we one day discover that for example
Lorentz symmetry is broken? It would mean that not all inertial
reference frames are not exactly equivalent, so out measurements would
need a specification of our absolute velocity, and maybe an absolute
position.

So it is possible for an apparent affine space to be a vector space
after all, we just weren't able to figure out the origin.

Gerard
Gerry Quinn - 03 Dec 2007 19:35 GMT
> It may not even be true: What if we one day discover that for example
> Lorentz symmetry is broken? It would mean that not all inertial
> reference frames are not exactly equivalent, so out measurements would
> need a specification of our absolute velocity, and maybe an absolute
> position.

No.  We would have a velocity and/or position relative to whatever
physical entity underlay the preferred reference frame.

Our discovery that Lorentz symmetry is broken would be equivalent to
the discovery of such an entity.

- Gerry Quinn
Uncle Al - 04 Dec 2007 20:08 GMT
Gerry Quinn wrote:

> In article <47508acf$0$227$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, westy31@xs4all.nl
> says...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Our discovery that Lorentz symmetry is broken would be equivalent to
> the discovery of such an entity.

It can be more elegant than that.  A vacuum pseudoscalar background
would be chiral, originating in affine or teleparallel gravitation
theories and spacetime torsion (Weitzenböck spacetime, A^4).  It would
power inflation then dilute, originate matter- antimatter imbalance,
source the 100% left-handed Waek interaction, source biological
homochirality of chiral L-protein amino acids and D-sugars... and be
of residual amplitude inert to EM and too small to detect under any
common mass distribution circumstances.

It would break Lorentz invariance, give the Equivalence Principle a
parity violation, violate conservation of angular momentum for
opposite parity mass distributions (anisotropic vacuum and Noether's
theorem)... and be easily, cheaply, and above all equisitely
detectable in a commercial analytical chemistry lab,

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Christmas 2007.  Another day or two to finish opposite parity benzil
test mass shaping and polishing, then FedEx to 45 latitude.

We've either been very clever or not.  We'll see.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Rock Brentwood - 04 Dec 2007 20:08 GMT
On Nov 11, 6:49 pm, Peter <end...@dekasges.de> wrote:
> > In a way we already
> > acknowledge this: the so-called parallelogram rule for vector addition
> > actually pertains to the 4 points, v,0,w, v - 0 + w , not just 3. So,
> > it's actually the operative rule for affine addition, not vector
> > addition!
> Newton's parallelogram rule refers to forces / accelerations

The parallelogram rule the article is referring to is the one taught
in a typical 200-level Physics cource -- which is the addition rule
*generally* for vectors, rather than just for the specific application
Newton may have had in mind. The point being made is that this rule,
though generally presented as a visualization of "vector" addition, is
actually a rule for affine addition, since it involves 4 points,
rather than just 3.

If Newton used the affine rule for adding accelerations, then he went
against his own thinking. For, as you recall, he posed the pail
experiment precisely to demonstrate that whereas the "0" of velocity
may be relative, the "0" vector has physical meaning for
accelerations. But, of course, as I described, he was forced to also
regard velocities as vectors, too, with a meaningful "0" lest he be
stuck having to try and formulate the notion of affine bundles 300+
years ahead of its time, when his grasp of calculus was barely even at
the 500 level (of course, you can't blame him for that: his professor,
Barrow, was only teaching at the equivalent of the 200 level in his
1664-1668 lectures and the only real Calculus text around during
Newton's undergrad days -- Wallis' 1655 "Arithmetica Infinitorum" --
was bare beyond that level).

Therefore, addition of accelerations actually involves only 3 points,
and it would probably be best regarded as represented by a "triangle"
rule!
 
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