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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Research / March 2008



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Do 2 laser beams interfere?

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ilper@abv.bg - 28 Feb 2008 14:39 GMT
I read that one electron interferes with himself.
Now I wonder do the wave functions of two electrons interfere.
Practically it's easier to formulate and check it for photons so the
questions is formulated for lasers.
Timo A. Nieminen - 28 Feb 2008 22:13 GMT
> I read that one electron interferes with himself.
> Now I wonder do the wave functions of two electrons interfere.
> Practically it's easier to formulate and check it for photons so the
> questions is formulated for lasers.

IIRC, it was Dirac who stated that a photon only interferes with itself.
But, to answer your question, yes, two laser beams do interfere. This is
not incompatible with Dirac's(?) statement.

If photons only interfere with themselves, what happens if we shine the
beams from two independent lasers onto the same point? We see an
interference pattern. How can this be?

Each photon must come from both lasers!

Keep in mind that photons are often pictured as little billiard balls (or
Smarties(TM) or M&Ms(TM), if considering polarisation), but this is just
to give us a satisfying picture. Photons are _not_ little billiard balls.
Photons are quantised excitations of modes of electromagnetics fields
(see, e.g., Cohen-Tannoudji). The electromagnetic field where we see the
interference is due to both sources. Thus, the photons come from both
sources. And it can be explained in terms of photons only interfering with
themselves.

Yes, it's been done experimentally, and even for the case when the two
lasers have different wavelengths.

Signature

Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
E-prints: http://eprint.uq.edu.au/view/person/Nieminen,_Timo_A..html
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html

Salviati - 06 Mar 2008 23:25 GMT
> Photons are quantised excitations of modes of electromagnetics fields
> (see, e.g., Cohen-Tannoudji). The electromagnetic field where we see the
> interference is due to both sources. Thus, the photons come from both
> sources. And it can be explained in terms of photons only interfering with
> themselves.

Perhaps you or someone else will be able to comment on a spectrogam that
puzzled me.

Look into home.arcor.de/eckard.blumschein/M285.html

I see a the typical spectrogram in terms of horizontal lines of constant
magnitude and frequency not before a second of the two steps of a Haar
wavelet occured with some delay and consequently the subsequent step may
superimpose its elementary frequency spectrum. Since the steps are
discrete, the elementary spectra are continuous sinc functions. It looks
as if the superposition is discrete again. Did you deal with the
question how fast the modes can build up? Could a pertaining delay
possibly relate to the uncertainty principle?
Tom Roberts - 28 Feb 2008 22:13 GMT
> I read that one electron interferes with himself.
> Now I wonder do the wave functions of two electrons interfere.
> Practically it's easier to formulate and check it for photons so the
> questions is formulated for lasers.

Certainly two laser beams can interfere with each other. Here are
references to several experiments that use this to put an upper limit on
the anisotropy of the speed of light:

# Cialdea, Lett. Nuovo Cimento 4 (1972), pg 821.
Uses two multi-mode lasers mounted on a rotating table to look for
variations in their interference pattern as the table is rotated. Places
an upper limit on any one-way anisotropy of 0.9 m/s.

# A. Brillet and J.L. Hall, “Improved Laser Test of the Isotropy of
Space”, Phys. Rev. Lett. 42 549–552 (1979).
This is one of the most accurate limits on any anisotropy in the
round-trip speed of light in a laboratory. They measured the
beat-frequency between a single-mode laser on a rotating table and a
single-mode laser fixed to the earth to put a limit on such an
anisotropy of 3 parts in 10^15. Due to the construction of their
rotating laser, this can also be interpreted as a limit on any
anisotropy of space. This is a round-trip experiment because of their
use of a Fabry-Perot etalon to determine the frequency of the rotating
laser. Note that their limit on the round-trip anisotropy corresponds to
a round-trip speed of less than 0.000001 m/s (!); in terms of the more
usual one-way anisotropy it is 30 m/s.

Tom Roberts
Richard Saam - 01 Mar 2008 16:38 GMT
> ilper abv.bg wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>  A. Brillet and J.L. Hall, Improved Laser Test of the Isotropy of

> Space, Phys. Rev. Lett. 42 549 552 (1979).
> This is one of the most accurate limits on any anisotropy in the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Tom Roberts

Has there been any laser interference work
with three or more intersecting lasers?

Richard D. Saam
Uncle Al - 01 Mar 2008 16:38 GMT
> I read that one electron interferes with himself.
> Now I wonder do the wave functions of two electrons interfere.
> Practically it's easier to formulate and check it for photons so the
> questions is formulated for lasers.

Photon-photon scattering cross-sections are predicted by quantum
electrodynamics.  Crossed light beams in vacuum do not scatter until
the vacuum itself almost sparks from the field.

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0403197
For 300 GeV center-of-mass energy, femtobarns
Visible light tops off around 400 nm/3.1 eV (not GeV).

Signature

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

Materion - 01 Mar 2008 16:38 GMT
On Feb 28, 11:13pm, "Timo A. Nieminen" <t...@physics.uq.edu.au>
wrote:
> > I read that one electron interferes with himself.
> > Now I wonder do the wave functions of two electrons interfere.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Yes, it's been done experimentally, and even for the case when the two
> lasers have different wavelengths.

Dirac's statement can be found in §73 of his "Principles of QM": "Each
photon then interferes only with itself. Interference between two
different photons never occurs". Dirac based this on the fact that two
photons sometimes would have to annihilate another (at troughs) and
would have to produce four photons (at peaks). This would contradict
the conservation of energy. This seems to me a curious argument. One
could imagine that two photons would have cooperative behavior and
both be directed towards the peaks, the energy being conserved. This
fits with boson statistics and agrees with a Bohmian picture. I see
Dirac's statement as a theoretical statement. I don't know of any
experiment that shows that interference between two different photons
never occurs. The fact that bosons show cooperative behavior (in laser
beams) even seems to contradict the statement.

Kind regards,
Arjen Dijksman
Oh No - 02 Mar 2008 23:24 GMT
Thus spake Materion <materion@free.fr>
>On Feb 28, 11:13pm, "Timo A. Nieminen" <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>> > I read that one electron interferes with himself.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>photon then interferes only with itself. Interference between two
>different photons never occurs".

Dirac's statement was made without benefit of a full understanding of
qed. Photon wave functions represent the probability amplitude for
annihilation of photons, and are in that respect different from electron
wave functions which represent the probability amplitude for position of
electrons. In fact, iirc on account of the fact that photons are bosons,
it is possible for wavefunctions of photons from different sources to
interfere. The source does not even have to be from lasers. I believe
interference effects have been found with photons from different stellar
sources.

Regards

--
Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex
Oz - 07 Mar 2008 03:31 GMT
Oh No <NotI@charlesfrancis.wanadoo.co.uk> writes
>Dirac's statement was made without benefit of a full understanding of qed.
>Photon wave functions represent the probability amplitude for annihilation
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>does not even have to be from lasers. I believe interference effects have
>been found with photons from different stellar sources.

This comes up from time to time and despite being busy elsewhere, worth
a quick reply.

People tend to forget that all radio transmitters are effectively lasers
of a lower frequency, and interference (beats) between different radio
transmitters are absolutely normal. I am at a loss as to why dirac
should have said this unless charles is right or he didn't say what he
really meant. Personally I suspect he was misinformed simply because of
the difficulty of obtaining two separate sources of sufficient stability
and coherence at that time.

Not only has the starlight experiment been done, but also two separate
very low intensity laser beams have been sent through single slits to a
common detector and a diffraction pattern resulted. The intensity was so
low that the probability of a (semi-classical) photon being between the
slits and the screen was close to zero.

If it were possible to prepare two suitable beams of electrons I would
expect interference to be similar with fermions. Actually performing
such a task might be 'challenging'.

Signature

Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Oh No - 07 Mar 2008 16:20 GMT
Thus spake Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com>
>Oh No <NotI@charlesfrancis.wanadoo.co.uk> writes
>>Dirac's statement was made without benefit of a full understanding of qed.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>expect interference to be similar with fermions. Actually performing
>such a task might be 'challenging'.

I found the calculation I did, showing that qed predicts that different
photons may interfere, but different electrons may not. Dirac was
thinking, quite naturally, of the structure of one particle Hilbert
space in which the quantum superposition, |f>+|g>, appears in the
addition of states of one particle. It makes no sense to add the state
of one particle to the state of another, because they are strictly
described by states in different Hilbert spaces. However in quantum
electrodynamics we have to think of the wave function not in terms of
the probability for where a photon is, but rather the probability for
where a photon is annihilated (detected) and we get a different result.

As a concession to ASCII I shall ignore spin and simplify the formula as
much as possible, and just show the bones of the argument. The photon
field operator is,

       A(x) = |x> + <x|

where I am using ket notation for operators, so that |x> creates the
state |x>, and <x| annihilates the same state.

The photon wave function in the state |f> is

       <|A(x)|f> = <x|f>

so that |<x|f>|^2 is the probability for detection of a photon at x.

Now consider a two photon state |f;g> = |f>|g> + |f>|g>. For simplicity
I am assuming no entanglement, and that the photons are distinguishable
at some time in the past (they come from different sources) so that
<f|g>=0.

When one of the photons is detected the other remains as it was, but we
don't know which one is detected and which one remains. Then the final
state is either |f> or |g>, i.e. it is |f> + |g>, so the probability for
detection at x is given by

       (<f|+<g|) A(x) |f;g> = (<f|+<g|)(|x> + <x|)|f;g>)

                            = (<f|+<g|)(<x|f>|g> + <x|g>|f>)

where I have lost the inner product between states of different numbers
of particles (it is zero). Using <f|g> =0 and <f|f>=<g|g>=1 this comes
down to

       <x|f> + <x|g>

Which shows the superposition between states of different photons.

+++++

This argument does not work for electrons. I shall ignore spin. For
electrons the field operator is

       Psi(x) = |x> + <x^|

where  |x> creates an electron and <x^| annihilates a positron. The
thing we detect is the current

       j(x) =  :Psi+(x)Psi(x): = :(|x^> + <x|)(|x> + <x^|):

Colons mean normally ordering, so that <x||x> is replaced by  |x><x|,
otherwise the theory is divergent before you start.

Ignoring positrons and pair creation j boils down to

       j(x) = |x><x|

which is the position operator (more strictly j^0 is charge, but here I
have lost the spin indices).

Now when an electron is detected both particles remain in the final
state, so the probability of detection at x is given by

       <f;g| j(x) |f;g> = <f;g| |x><x| |g;f>

                        = (<f|x><g| - <g|x><f|)(<x|g>|f> - <x|f>|g>)

Again  the <f|g>=0 and <f|f> = <y|y> =1 so this reduces to

                        = |<f|x>|^2  + |<g|x>|^2

So in this case we do not have interference.

Regards

Signature

Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex

 
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