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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Research / March 2008



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Question about space, time and string theory

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Michael Hell - 01 Mar 2008 16:38 GMT
In the Principia Newton defined time and space for physics:

<quote>
I.  Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own
nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by
another name is called duration:

relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external
(whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of
motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour,
a day, a month, a year.

II. Absolute space, in its own nature, without relation to anything
external, remains always similar and immovable.

Relative space is some movable dimension or measure of the absolute
spaces; which our senses determine by its position to bodies; and
which is commonly taken for immovable space; such is the dimension of
a subterraneous, an aerial, or celestial space, determined by its
position in respect of the earth.
</quote>

We all know that Einstein had something to say on this topic.

He writes in Relativity Chapter 9:

<quote>
Now before the advent of the theory of relativity it had always
tacitly been assumed in physics that the statement of time had an
absolute significance, i.e. that it is independent of the state of
motion of the body of reference. But we have just seen that this
assumption is incompatible with the most natural definition of
simultaneity; if we discard this assumption, then the conflict between
the law of the propagation of light in vacuo and the principle of
relativity (developed in Section VII) disappears."
</quote>

The reason for the assumption could be Newton's description of
absolute time being mathematical rather than relative time.

In Chapter 8, Einstein gives his working definition for time:

<quote>
Under these conditions we understand by the 'time' of an event the
reading (position of the hands) of that one of these clocks which is
in the immediate vicinity (in space) of the event
</quote>

Einstein is defining time in terms of the moving hands of a clock,
which is nearly identical to how Newton defined relative time:

<quote>
Relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external
(whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of
motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour,
a day, a month, a year.
</quote>

While I often hear some claim "Einstein has shown that time is
relative", really, all that he has shown is that our present
mathematics represent relative time, contrary to Newton's definition.

In fact, Einstein had made this point to Heisenberg, I think
demonstrating how easily this subtle point is missed:

<quote>
"But you don't seriously believe," Einstein protested, "that none but
observable magnitudes must go into a physical theory?"

"Isn't that precisely what you have done with relativity?" I asked in
some surprise. "After all, you did stress the fact that it is
impermissible to speak of absolute time, simply because absolute time
cannot be observed; that only clock readings, be it in the moving
reference system or the system at rest, are relevant to the
determination of time."

"Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning," Einstein admitted, "but
it is nonsense all the same. Perhaps I could put it more
diplomatically by saying that it may be heuristically useful to keep
in mind what one has actually observed. But on principle, it is quite
wrong to try founding a theory on observable magnitudes alone. In
reality, the very opposite happens. It is the theory which decides
what we can observe."
</quote>
(In 'Physics and Beyond - Encounters and Conversations', Harper
Torchbooks, 1972, p. 63.)

To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while
absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative
space and time that we measure..

Emphasis: RELATIVE SPACE AND TIME ARE MEASURED.

Now.

String theory.

There are visible dimensions of space and time, and there are hidden
dimensions.

These hidden dimensions, I take it, cannot be measured.

Are they still relative?
Salviati - 02 Mar 2008 23:24 GMT
[snip]
> To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while
> absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Are they still relative?

Nobody can measure future time. The same is true for negative spatial
distance. If we did consider the future merely hidden then we would take
an obviously wrong fatalistic point of view. Future can be influenced.
Therefore I prefer to distinguish not between an apriori existing, so
called absolute, eternal time scale on one hand and a measurable, i.e.
relative map of it on the other hand. I consider it the other way round
and distinguish between the presumably basic measurable and relative
elapsed time on the level of putative reality on one hand and the usual
notion of time, which can be considered as an ideal being abstacted and
extrapolated from all possible measurement. Newton as well as Einstein
were believers in god and a god-given temporal order from eternity to
eternity.
Igor Khavkine - 06 Mar 2008 01:40 GMT
> To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while
> absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Are they still relative?

There is a simple way to address this question. I fear, though, that it
may not make you very happy, since it doesn't answer your question
directly.

Simply put, string theory neither demands nor offers any special
insights into the nature of space-time, beyond what is required by
special relativity.

I can try to describe the kind of space-time used in string theory. If
the description is clear enough, it may help you answer your original
question to your own satisfaction. If not, you can ask followup
questions to make the description more clear.

Imagine space-time as described in standard special relativity. String
theory's space-time has three key differences: (a) it is higher
dimensional, (b) it has non-trivial topology, (c) it is curved.

Concerning (a), whenever special relativity makes reference to 3 being
the number of spatial dimensions, replace that number by something
larger (usually 25 or 9, depending on the version of string theory).

Concerning (b), different topologies are easier to picture in lower
dimensions. Suppose there is only one spatial dimension and one
temporal. Then, the space-time of special relativity looks like a flat
sheet of paper (infinitely extended). On the other hand, one could
imagine a piece of paper rolled into a cylinder (infinitely extended
along its length). The axial direction would be the temporal dimension,
while the transverse direction would be the spatial one. The cylinder
cannot be deformed into a flat sheet without being torn. Thus, the two
kinds of space-time are said to have different topologies. One special
feature of the cylindrical space-time is that the circumference of the
spatial dimension is finite. Now, translate this to the higher
dimensional case. String theory supposes that the space-time is, say, 10
dimensional. Of those, 4 are infinitely extended (one temporal and
three spatial), while the remaining 6 are similar to the spatial
dimension of the cylindrical space-time: their circumferences are
finite. These 6 are the so-called "hidden dimensions".

Concerning (c), curvature corresponds to the presence of gravity
(exactly as in general relativity). However, often, gravity can be
neglected if one is only concerned with very short distances and time
intervals, hence so can curvature.

Finally, about observability of the hidden dimensions. String theory
supposes them to be just as observable as the other 4. However, it also
supposes that their circumferences are extremely tiny (possibly smaller
than subnuclear scales). If that is true, they are unobservable due to
technological difficulties (there is no particle accelerator large
enough to probe them), but not in principle. If, on the other hand, one
could ask what size should the hidden dimensions be to be detectable
with current technology. Supposing that they are in deed that large
leads to proposals generally called "large extra dimensions". There have
been experiments designed to test for large extra dimensions. However,
they've only produced null results. So, from the point of view of string
theory, the hidden dimensions are in principle observable, but so far
unobserved.

Hope this helps.

Igor
Jay R. Yablon - 06 Mar 2008 23:25 GMT
. . .

> There is a simple way to address this question. I fear, though, that
> it
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> Igor

Igor,

Following your exposition above, I would like to know your educated
personal opinion -- which I have a great deal of respect for -- as to
whether you believe the compact dimensions in string theory will one day
turn out to be real physics, or science fiction.

I have myself gone from being highly skeptical of compact dimensions to
believing that they have some merit.  I have also come to realize just
how heatedly some people feel about string theory and compact dimensions
on both sides.

Are you willing to share your views on this?

Also, you say that the hidden dimensions "are unobservable due to
technological difficulties (there is no particle accelerator large
enough to probe them), but not in principle."  Might there be indirect
effects that can be observed, even if the dimensions themselves cannot
be?  For example, presumably, field quanta such as electrons can have
some motion through these dimensions.  How might motion of an electron
through a cylindrical dimension be manifest on a scale we can observe?

Thanks,

Jay.
____________________________
Jay R. Yablon
Email: jyablon@nycap.rr.com
co-moderator: sci.physics.foundations
Weblog: http://jayryablon.wordpress.com/
Web Site: http://home.nycap.rr.com/jry/FermionMass.htm
Igor Khavkine - 07 Mar 2008 04:52 GMT
> Following your exposition above, I would like to know your educated
> personal opinion -- which I have a great deal of respect for -- as to
> whether you believe the compact dimensions in string theory will one day
> turn out to be real physics, or science fiction.

I can only adopt the scientific position. Whether they are there or not,
is only for experiment to decide. However, if they are there, available
evidence suggests that they must be extremely tiny. Therefore, I reserve
the right to ignore them when it comes to known physics and to entertain
alternative hypotheses when speculating about the unknown.

> Also, you say that the hidden dimensions "are unobservable due to
> technological difficulties (there is no particle accelerator large
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> some motion through these dimensions.  How might motion of an electron
> through a cylindrical dimension be manifest on a scale we can observe?

Indirect evidence is precisely the kind sought by experiments designed
to look for so-called "large extra dimensions". Adelberger's
investigation of the short distance behavior of Newton's gravitational
law is one of them.

Igor
Michael Hell - 14 Mar 2008 02:36 GMT
> > To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while
> > absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> theory, the hidden dimensions are in principle observable, but so far
> unobserved.

Thanks for the response.

How about in Brane mechanics?

What you're talking about applies to compactified dimensions in string
theory, unless I'm way off base.

In Brane mechanics those dimensions are presumably unobservable even
in principle.

Correct?
Igor Khavkine - 14 Mar 2008 04:40 GMT
>> Finally, about observability of the hidden dimensions. String theory
>> supposes them to be just as observable as the other 4. However, it also
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> In Brane mechanics those dimensions are presumably unobservable even
> in principle.

Branes are particular (lower dimensional) objects in string theory.
Although, some kinds of matter and fields described by string theory is
hypothetically restricted to a brane, other kinds (gravity and
gravitational waves, usually) are invariable able to propagate in the
whole space-time where the brane is embedded. Thus, branes do not
restrict the theoretical observability of hidden dimensions.

Hope this helps.

Igor
 
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