Question about space, time and string theory
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Michael Hell - 01 Mar 2008 16:38 GMT In the Principia Newton defined time and space for physics:
<quote> I. Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration:
relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year.
II. Absolute space, in its own nature, without relation to anything external, remains always similar and immovable.
Relative space is some movable dimension or measure of the absolute spaces; which our senses determine by its position to bodies; and which is commonly taken for immovable space; such is the dimension of a subterraneous, an aerial, or celestial space, determined by its position in respect of the earth. </quote>
We all know that Einstein had something to say on this topic.
He writes in Relativity Chapter 9:
<quote> Now before the advent of the theory of relativity it had always tacitly been assumed in physics that the statement of time had an absolute significance, i.e. that it is independent of the state of motion of the body of reference. But we have just seen that this assumption is incompatible with the most natural definition of simultaneity; if we discard this assumption, then the conflict between the law of the propagation of light in vacuo and the principle of relativity (developed in Section VII) disappears." </quote>
The reason for the assumption could be Newton's description of absolute time being mathematical rather than relative time.
In Chapter 8, Einstein gives his working definition for time:
<quote> Under these conditions we understand by the 'time' of an event the reading (position of the hands) of that one of these clocks which is in the immediate vicinity (in space) of the event </quote>
Einstein is defining time in terms of the moving hands of a clock, which is nearly identical to how Newton defined relative time:
<quote> Relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year. </quote>
While I often hear some claim "Einstein has shown that time is relative", really, all that he has shown is that our present mathematics represent relative time, contrary to Newton's definition.
In fact, Einstein had made this point to Heisenberg, I think demonstrating how easily this subtle point is missed:
<quote> "But you don't seriously believe," Einstein protested, "that none but observable magnitudes must go into a physical theory?"
"Isn't that precisely what you have done with relativity?" I asked in some surprise. "After all, you did stress the fact that it is impermissible to speak of absolute time, simply because absolute time cannot be observed; that only clock readings, be it in the moving reference system or the system at rest, are relevant to the determination of time."
"Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning," Einstein admitted, "but it is nonsense all the same. Perhaps I could put it more diplomatically by saying that it may be heuristically useful to keep in mind what one has actually observed. But on principle, it is quite wrong to try founding a theory on observable magnitudes alone. In reality, the very opposite happens. It is the theory which decides what we can observe." </quote> (In 'Physics and Beyond - Encounters and Conversations', Harper Torchbooks, 1972, p. 63.)
To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative space and time that we measure..
Emphasis: RELATIVE SPACE AND TIME ARE MEASURED.
Now.
String theory.
There are visible dimensions of space and time, and there are hidden dimensions.
These hidden dimensions, I take it, cannot be measured.
Are they still relative?
Salviati - 02 Mar 2008 23:24 GMT [snip]
> To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while > absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Are they still relative? Nobody can measure future time. The same is true for negative spatial distance. If we did consider the future merely hidden then we would take an obviously wrong fatalistic point of view. Future can be influenced. Therefore I prefer to distinguish not between an apriori existing, so called absolute, eternal time scale on one hand and a measurable, i.e. relative map of it on the other hand. I consider it the other way round and distinguish between the presumably basic measurable and relative elapsed time on the level of putative reality on one hand and the usual notion of time, which can be considered as an ideal being abstacted and extrapolated from all possible measurement. Newton as well as Einstein were believers in god and a god-given temporal order from eternity to eternity.
Igor Khavkine - 06 Mar 2008 01:40 GMT > To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while > absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Are they still relative? There is a simple way to address this question. I fear, though, that it may not make you very happy, since it doesn't answer your question directly.
Simply put, string theory neither demands nor offers any special insights into the nature of space-time, beyond what is required by special relativity.
I can try to describe the kind of space-time used in string theory. If the description is clear enough, it may help you answer your original question to your own satisfaction. If not, you can ask followup questions to make the description more clear.
Imagine space-time as described in standard special relativity. String theory's space-time has three key differences: (a) it is higher dimensional, (b) it has non-trivial topology, (c) it is curved.
Concerning (a), whenever special relativity makes reference to 3 being the number of spatial dimensions, replace that number by something larger (usually 25 or 9, depending on the version of string theory).
Concerning (b), different topologies are easier to picture in lower dimensions. Suppose there is only one spatial dimension and one temporal. Then, the space-time of special relativity looks like a flat sheet of paper (infinitely extended). On the other hand, one could imagine a piece of paper rolled into a cylinder (infinitely extended along its length). The axial direction would be the temporal dimension, while the transverse direction would be the spatial one. The cylinder cannot be deformed into a flat sheet without being torn. Thus, the two kinds of space-time are said to have different topologies. One special feature of the cylindrical space-time is that the circumference of the spatial dimension is finite. Now, translate this to the higher dimensional case. String theory supposes that the space-time is, say, 10 dimensional. Of those, 4 are infinitely extended (one temporal and three spatial), while the remaining 6 are similar to the spatial dimension of the cylindrical space-time: their circumferences are finite. These 6 are the so-called "hidden dimensions".
Concerning (c), curvature corresponds to the presence of gravity (exactly as in general relativity). However, often, gravity can be neglected if one is only concerned with very short distances and time intervals, hence so can curvature.
Finally, about observability of the hidden dimensions. String theory supposes them to be just as observable as the other 4. However, it also supposes that their circumferences are extremely tiny (possibly smaller than subnuclear scales). If that is true, they are unobservable due to technological difficulties (there is no particle accelerator large enough to probe them), but not in principle. If, on the other hand, one could ask what size should the hidden dimensions be to be detectable with current technology. Supposing that they are in deed that large leads to proposals generally called "large extra dimensions". There have been experiments designed to test for large extra dimensions. However, they've only produced null results. So, from the point of view of string theory, the hidden dimensions are in principle observable, but so far unobserved.
Hope this helps.
Igor
Jay R. Yablon - 06 Mar 2008 23:25 GMT . . .
> There is a simple way to address this question. I fear, though, that > it [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Igor Igor,
Following your exposition above, I would like to know your educated personal opinion -- which I have a great deal of respect for -- as to whether you believe the compact dimensions in string theory will one day turn out to be real physics, or science fiction.
I have myself gone from being highly skeptical of compact dimensions to believing that they have some merit. I have also come to realize just how heatedly some people feel about string theory and compact dimensions on both sides.
Are you willing to share your views on this?
Also, you say that the hidden dimensions "are unobservable due to technological difficulties (there is no particle accelerator large enough to probe them), but not in principle." Might there be indirect effects that can be observed, even if the dimensions themselves cannot be? For example, presumably, field quanta such as electrons can have some motion through these dimensions. How might motion of an electron through a cylindrical dimension be manifest on a scale we can observe?
Thanks,
Jay. ____________________________ Jay R. Yablon Email: jyablon@nycap.rr.com co-moderator: sci.physics.foundations Weblog: http://jayryablon.wordpress.com/ Web Site: http://home.nycap.rr.com/jry/FermionMass.htm
Igor Khavkine - 07 Mar 2008 04:52 GMT > Following your exposition above, I would like to know your educated > personal opinion -- which I have a great deal of respect for -- as to > whether you believe the compact dimensions in string theory will one day > turn out to be real physics, or science fiction. I can only adopt the scientific position. Whether they are there or not, is only for experiment to decide. However, if they are there, available evidence suggests that they must be extremely tiny. Therefore, I reserve the right to ignore them when it comes to known physics and to entertain alternative hypotheses when speculating about the unknown.
> Also, you say that the hidden dimensions "are unobservable due to > technological difficulties (there is no particle accelerator large [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > some motion through these dimensions. How might motion of an electron > through a cylindrical dimension be manifest on a scale we can observe? Indirect evidence is precisely the kind sought by experiments designed to look for so-called "large extra dimensions". Adelberger's investigation of the short distance behavior of Newton's gravitational law is one of them.
Igor
Michael Hell - 14 Mar 2008 02:36 GMT > > To summarize all that: in the eyes of both Newton and Einstein, while > > absolute space and time are "somewhere out there"; it is relative [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > theory, the hidden dimensions are in principle observable, but so far > unobserved. Thanks for the response.
How about in Brane mechanics?
What you're talking about applies to compactified dimensions in string theory, unless I'm way off base.
In Brane mechanics those dimensions are presumably unobservable even in principle.
Correct?
Igor Khavkine - 14 Mar 2008 04:40 GMT >> Finally, about observability of the hidden dimensions. String theory >> supposes them to be just as observable as the other 4. However, it also [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > In Brane mechanics those dimensions are presumably unobservable even > in principle. Branes are particular (lower dimensional) objects in string theory. Although, some kinds of matter and fields described by string theory is hypothetically restricted to a brane, other kinds (gravity and gravitational waves, usually) are invariable able to propagate in the whole space-time where the brane is embedded. Thus, branes do not restrict the theoretical observability of hidden dimensions.
Hope this helps.
Igor
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