On Penrose's argument against density operators
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C Pedro - 22 Jul 2008 01:05 GMT The following article:
http://cmathphil.blogspot.com/2008/07/on-penroses-argument-against-density.html
addresses Penrose’s criticism (Penrose, 2004, The Road to Reality) of the usage of the density operator when dealing with pure quantum states. The main arguments of Penrose are reviewed, and the reflection proceeds around the main question: What is the most fundamental mathematical structure that should be used to describe the quantum system, and, what is the nature of the physical semantics that this structure formalizes?
The following reproduces the main text of the article, safe for the formulas that appear as images (that can be seen in the above link):
On Penrose's Argument Against Density Operators by Carlos Pedro Gonçalves
What is a quantum state?
Should we speak of a quantum state at all?
Should we speak of quantum states or of quantum processes?
These questions can be raised from the work of Baugh, Finkelstein and Galiautdinov (http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0206036) and from the results obtained by Gonçalves and Madeira (http://www.ma.utexas.edu/mp_arc/c/08/08-62.pdf), about the connection between a stationary quantum state and the consistent histories formalism, these results being obtained from the relational structure of the different bases in which a stationary quantum state can be expanded.
A different, but related, problem arises from Penrose’s Road to Reality (Penrose, 2004), where the author questions the mathematical structure that should be used to formalize what is usually called a quantum state.
Thinking about these two threads, one is lead to the following question:
What is the most fundamental mathematical structure that should be used to describe the quantum system, and, what is the nature of the physical semantics that this structure formalizes?
This is the main question to which we shall return, recurrently, during this article.
Looking at Penrose's (2004) work, and regarding the first part of the question, we find that Penrose (2004) raised the problem of formalizing the quantum state by:
A) The density operator, whose entropy zero space (using von Neumann’s notion of entropy) is comprised of the density operators for the so- called "pure states".
B) The normalized kets (for the "pure states")
It is clear that the density operator is more general, since it can be used for statistical mixtures, but is it more fundamental than the ket for pure states? And, should we call these states at all?
The notion of a zero entropy density operator is effectively equivalent to a projective notion of a (pure) quantum state, as Penrose noticed. Therefore, one might take the position that such density operators appropriately describe a “physical quantum state”, taking the perspective that only that which has an impact in measurement problems can be considered to be physical.
About this, however, Penrose (2004, p.796) argues that:
“(…) I feel uncomfortable about regarding such a ‘pure-state density matrix’ as the appropriate mathematical representation of a ‘physical state’. The phase factor (…) is only ‘unobservable’ if the state under consideration represents the entire object of interest. When considering some state as part of a larger system, it is important to keep track of these phases (…)”
Penrose’s main issue is related to the superposition principle. As Penrose puts it, the basic quantum linearity is obscured in the density operator description. Indeed, an objection of Penrose against the density operator is that the density operator makes complex the simpler linearity of the ket formalism.
So far, Penrose’s arguments equally apply to the density operator and to the density matrix. In pages 797 to 800 of Road to Reality, however, Penrose proceeds discussing what he considers to be the “confused ontological status of the density matrix”, in this case, the argument centers itself in the matrix and not in the operator. Indeed, some of the statements, used as counter-argumens apply correctly to the density matrix but not to the operator.
The major argument refers to the inability of the density matrix to distinguish between different kinds of entangled pairs. For instance, consider the following scheme/example:
[Click the link for the article at the beginning of the e-mail to read the formulas]
Even though we have two different kinds of entangled pairs, the density matrix is the same, that is, the density matrix does not seem to distinguish the bases.
However, this is not the case if we take into account the density operator. The density operators are, not only, different, but if we determine the projection, for instance, of the second density operator with respect to the basis in which the first is represented, we obtain:
[Click the link for the article at the beginning of the e-mail to read the formulas]
Indeed, the second operator is a statistical mixture between two pure states of superposition of 0> and 1> (+> and ->).
What the above results show is that the projections of the second density operator to the basis {0>, 1>} and to the basis {+>,->}, differ, with respect to the probabilities assigned to the quantum events formalized by these projections.
We can use a density matrix for reading probabilities, however, one must never confuse the matrix with the operator, and one must always use the operator, for the fundamental description.
The problems of ontological confusion, raised by Penrose, can be raised with respect to the density matrix but not with respect to the density operator.
This stresses the importance of precision of language, and the issue of the generalized practice of calling the density operator a density matrix (a practice followed by Penrose, and called into attention by Feynman in his Lectures on Physics, as a practical but mathematically imprecise simplification). This must be considered as a simplification of language, as Feynman stressed, but, nonetheless, it is a mathematical imprecision in the usage of the terminology, and, when dealing with fundamental arguments, one must take into account the distinction between the density matrix and the density operator.
However, Penrose’s argument about the phase seems to stand for both operator and matrix, quoting Penrose (2004, p.803):
“Under normal circumstances, moreover, one must regard the density matrix as some kind of approximation to the whole quantum truth. For there is no general principle providing an absolute bar to extracting detailed information from the environment. Maybe a future technology could provide means whereby quantum phase relations can be monitored in detail, under circumstances where present-day technology would simply ‘give up’. It would seem that the resort to a density-matrix description is a technology-dependent prescription! With better technology, the state-vector could be maintained for longer, and the resort to a density matrix put off until things get really hopelessly messy! It would seem to be a strange view of physical reality to regard it to be ‘really’ described by a density matrix (…)”
Although these arguments may seem compelling, one may place a question regarding the statement on the approximation to the whole quantum truth, the question is: what about the so-called 'impure states'?
As Penrose notices, one cannot discard that, at the quantum level, detailed phase relations may get “lost”, because of some deep overriding basic principle. It is still too soon to discard such a hypothesis, and this, indeed, may be likely, if one considers a foamy Planck scale space-time (quantum foam) (Penrose, 2004).
Furthermore, there is still a division in the community in what regards the information loss in black holes. Even if many believe, including, more recently, Hawking (http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0507171), that information may not be lost, we cannot yet reject this possibility.
It seems that, accepting Penrose's argument, leads to the position that if we wish to use a fundamental mathematical description of physical reality, we must use two different formalisms, a ket for the pure states and a density operator for all the other cases, and we cannot discard the need for the usage of the density operator.
Thus, to the first part of our main question (what is the most fundamental mathematical structure that should be used to describe the quantum system?)The arguments seem to point towards using the density operator only when necessary, as a technological tool.
But is this sustainable? Do the phases matter?
The answers to these questions cannot be entirely solved by appealing to mathematics alone.
Indeed, a mathematician might be divided between: (a) a choice where one would work with what can be argued to be a more fundamental structure with respect to the information conserved in the description (the phase information), but two formalisms would be used for two different situations (pure vs impure states); (b) a choice where one works with a single formalism but part of the information (the phase) is lost.
Since we are dealing with physics, all that matters is whether or not the phase is physically relevant, or, even, whether or not the density operator expresses, formally, the most fundamental physical nature, the normalized ket just being a useful representation, that can be shown to be equivalent to the density operator up to a global phase factor.
In effect, so far, all that we can get from the system is the information contained in the density operator. The question of whether or not there might be some technology to recover the phase from a measurement, is still open to discussion.
One may argue that, physically, the phase is irrelevant, one may alternatively argue that the phase is not physically irrelevant. However, to do the latter would demand the mathematical formulation of what might constitute a measurement procedure for the phase, leading inevitably to the problem of the physical meaning and measurability of a complex number.
If one chooses to spend some time with this issue, one is led to this bifurcation of perspectives, where the choice depends less on mathematics and more on physics, in particular, our main question «what is the most fundamental mathematical structure that should be used to describe the quantum system, and what is the nature of the physical semantics that this structure formalizes?» should be considered as a whole, since one cannot really consider the formalism, independently from the object of intentionality of the formalization (that which the formalization is about and that justifies the development of the formalization itself). What is fundamental for the mathematical structures of the formalism, may not be so for the object of formalization.
In the end, the interpretation of quantum mechanics that one follows may decide the choice between the two paths, if one wishes to make such a choice at all, or if, and until, a fundamental thinking about physics demands such a choice.
An interpretation of quantum mechanics that thinks about the nature of quantum processes, inevitably restricts our choices about what is fundamental due to the ontological and epistemological commitments that we assume, along the way of the construction of a scientifically grounded interpretation.
In the interpretations that assign a physical nature to the wave function as corresponding to a pilot wave, the phases are relevant, even if they cannot be measured, since the fundamental object of formalization is that pilot wave.
For a follower of Bohr, on the other hand, the whole discussion would be pointless, since the quantum formalism is just a useful tool used to predict results of experiments, whether we use a ket, a wave function or a density operator is irrelevant.
Furthermore, Bohr was “suspicious” of complex numbers, these could be useful tools, but, in the end, all that mattered were the predictions, and if a phase is unobservable by current technology it is a waste of time to think about it or to assign it a physical significance.
In the Aristotle-based realist interpretation, followed by Heisenberg, the density operator should be taken as the formalization of the fundamental physical structure, since what the formalism “formalizes” is the tendency of a potential alternative to be actualized, this intensity of the dynamis corresponds is quantifiable in terms of a degree, a degree with which probabilities coincide numerically, when these probabilities are interpreted as being proportional to the physical propensity of the potential alternative to be actualized, which is nothing but the intensity of the dynamis associated with that alternative.
Taking this into account, the diagonal terms of the density operator are the fundamental structure, since they are in the direct correspondence with the object of formalization of the theory, i.e., they formalize the most fundamental physical structure, and their interpretation is naturally processual, a processual nature that is obscured by the ket representation.
A closely related mathematical argument can be found in Bohm, Davies and Hiley's paper Algebraic Quantum Mechanics and Pregeometry (http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0612002), where the authors built quantum theory from the primitive idempotents that are directly related to the different entries of the density operator. Bohm et al. show that the ket notation hides the fact that each ket represents an object with two labels.
Thus, in the end, one’s solution to the phase problem and the answer to the central question placed here, depends on one’s choice of interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Chris H. Fleming - 23 Jul 2008 17:24 GMT > The following article: > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > used for statistical mixtures, but is it more fundamental than the ket > for pure states? And, should we call these states at all? The state vector is even more crippled than that. In an open system formalism, one can still talk about the reduced density matrix of system + environment pure states. These reduced density matrices do not admit factorization into an outer product of state vectors. I.e. there are no natural reduced state vectors, though people keep trying to invent such things.
C Pedro - 24 Jul 2008 20:25 GMT Hello Chris,
Thank you for raising that point.
Penrose’s argument is actually linked with his criticism about decoherence, and about the nature of mixed-states. In fact, his position appears recurrently throughout the book, sometimes less clear and, at other times, more clearly stated, a careful reading shows that this position can be argued to be summarized in the following statement:
[The density operator should denied its status as a state, and the decoherence approach is incorrect since it is basing its argument in terms of a wrong ontology of states]
What Penrose considers to be the strongest argument in favor of this statement is the argument about the confused ontological status of the density matrix, which he conceptually extends to the density operator.
The blog article has two pictures with the formalization of a small example, that puts into question this argument, with respect to the density operator description.
However, Penrose considers the argument to cause an awkwardness for the environmental-decoherence approach, in his own words (Penrose, 2004, pp.800, 801):
“(…) All this serves to emphasize that there is no unique ontology of ‘probability-weighted alternative states’ whatever density matrix is used. We shall see shortly that this fact causes an awkwardness for the environmental-decoherence philosophy of viewpoint.”
Even though I did not directly address, in the post and blog article, this argument against decoherence, the results and arguments presented there end up putting into question the basis for Penrose’s statement about decoherence.
Regards,
C. Pedro
On 23 Jul, 17:24, "Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_flem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The following article: > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > - Mostrar texto citado - Rock Brentwood - 27 Jul 2008 19:51 GMT > Penrose=92s argument is actually linked with his criticism about > decoherence, and about the nature of mixed-states. His observations sound to me a lot like a major point I have with those who make the following distinction: * Mixed state as unit-norm weighted sum of pure states vs. * Mixed state as a (actual, but unknown) pure state (with our ignorance of its actual identity represented by non-zero "probability coefficients" attached to each possible pure state, the mixed state can be).
Those who ascribe to the first interpretation treat the traditional reduction process as Pure state --(measurement)--> Mixed state --(reduction)--> Pure state.
If, however, you ascribe to the second interpretation, then there are only TWO steps in reduction: Pure state --(measurement)--> Mixed state =3D pure/but/unknown state.
Reduction is then literally all in the head -- a psychological mirage not corresponding to anything in the objective world (other than the objective world describing the physics of what's going on in your brain when you learn the identity of the pure state the mixed state actually is).
If one makes a distinction between a "mixed" vs. "pure-but-unknown" state, then there is the obligation of pointing out an objective physical distinction between the two -- an empirical test that would allow us to distinguish between 0.5 S1 + 0.5 S2 vs. S1 with probability 0.5 & S2 with probability 0.5.
Otherwise, an application of Occam's Razor could be used to tag the distinction as superfluous, to identify the false distinction as a case of Disflation (the opposite of Conflation), and collapse the 3 steps into 2. Then, we're no longer talking about evolution from pure to mixed states, but simply stochastic jumps between pure states.
In fact, working backwards: this leads to the notion that though "Projection" may not be derivable from "Evolution", because of the non- unitary nature of the reduction process; perhaps "Evolution" can be derived from "Projection" as a kind of large-number continuum limit of discrete "Projection" events! That is: maybe there's a theorem analogous to that in statistical distribution theory in which the Schroedinger equation plays the role analogous to that of the Gaussian distribution.
None of the above is to say that the whole enterprise of mixed states becomes superfluous, in itself! Any boundary you draw in the space- time manifold between "region comprising system", vs. "region comprising detector/observer", vs. "external region" automatically entails entanglement entropy associated with the boundaries of cut-off and mixed states. These are "improper mixtures".
In fact, one could conceivably take this to an extreme point -- there is no universal state space, and resort to such cut-offs is fundamentally necessary. That is, in effect: the universe is an open system. An infinitely complex nesting of subsystem within subsystem, no universal covering of it all.
The simplest, and most clear, way this can happen is if the space-time manifold, in its entirety, is simply not globally hyperbolic and admits no quantum formalism at all for the entire manifold. Then you're forced to resort to "locally hyperbolic" submanifolds (that is, compact 4-dimensional regions that -- as manifolds in their own right -- as globally hyperbolic, but are do not have a causally convex embedding into the entire manifold).
illywhacker - 29 Jul 2008 22:07 GMT > then there is the obligation of pointing out an objective > physical distinction between the two -- an empirical test that would > allow us to distinguish between > 0.5 S1 + 0.5 S2 > vs. > S1 with probability 0.5 & S2 with probability 0.5. But these are entirely different. The first is a pure state while the second is mixed (unless your notation is weird). Pure states are distinguished by having entropy zero, or by having density operators with only one non-zero eigenvalue, and probably many other ways as well.
The philosophy is neither here nor there. As usual, the philosophical distinction, like that between determinism and stochasticity, is not an empirical distinction, and should not be treated as such. One point of view or the other should be preferred because it is more productive or more useful in some sense.
For example, in applications of probability theory (outside quantum mechanics and indeed outside physics), it is far more productive (expands the range of problems that can be treated, eliminates silly confusions, etc.) to view probability as representing our knowledge of the world rather than connecting it a priori (and in an empirically ill-defined way) to frequencies. Similar considerations apply to the notion of an intrinsic stochasticity in the world: this point of view tends to discourage the search for deterministic underpinnings to stochastic models. (Any claim that I am talking about quantum mechanics will be denied.)
illywhacker;
C Pedro - 29 Jul 2008 22:07 GMT Thank you Rock, for the issues raised,
In fact, working backwards: this leads to the notion that though "Projection" may not be derivable from "Evolution", because of the non- unitary nature of the reduction process; perhaps "Evolution" can be derived from "Projection" as a kind of large-number continuum limit of discrete "Projection" events! That is: maybe there's a theorem analogous to that in statistical distribution theory in which the Schroedinger equation plays the role analogous to that of the Gaussian distribution.
About the reduction, one should stress that von Neumann's notice of what he called the peculiar nature of quantum mechanics was conjectural and tentative in regards to how one should interpret the mathematical results.
This so-called peculiar nature, following von Neumann's argument, was about the information preserving evolution versus the entropy increasing reduction.
When he referred to the reduction, as a physical process, with physical consequences (namely the increase in entropy), he thought about it as a physical process entirely distinct from both evolution and projection. It was a production of mixtures as weighted sums of projection operators.
These sums of projections can be used to calculate probabilities, interpreting each alternative projection as formalizing an event that produced a given outcome regarding some observable or family of observables (all those that are diagonal in the basis).
But the issue of the proper or improper mixture is an issue that is raised, especially after the density operator decoherence program.
If the decoherence is produced by entanglement, it is surely improper, if it is produced by something else it may be proper.
If it is improper there are two alternatives, that have been, for instance, addressed by Zeh:
(1) The (almost) irreversible improper;
(2) The reversible improper.
If the entanglement spreads to a sufficiently large number of systems, then, it may become almost irreversible, and, in this sense, locally, it is almost as if it is a proper mixture, even if, globally, information is conserved.
Penrose considers the need for proper entropy increase. For Penrose, the system must produce an either-or logic, that explains nature's ability to choose between different alternatives.
One can, however, argue that the dependency of nature's choice on the emergence of this either-or logic (be it properly produced or improperly produced) is an issue that should be raised, regarding all these interpretations of decoherence, besides the issue of discussing the consequences of what really is meant by a quantum state.
One may argue that:
A) The local decoherence (be it proper or improper) is the pre-step towards the final probabilistic choice (if one follows an interpretation that believes in one);
B) The local decoherence only alters the patterns of interference, but nature can choose without the density operator decoherence (the consistent histories interpretation proposes one such approach where entanglement changes the level of coarse-graining with respect to which one may assign probabilities, erasing interference patterns, but one can also assign probabilities to cases where there is no local density operator decoherence).
The single step history is a good example of a fundamental disagreement between A) and B).
> > Penrose's argument is actually linked with his criticism about > > decoherence, and about the nature of mixed-states. [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > -- as globally hyperbolic, but are do not have a causally convex > embedding into the entire manifold).
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