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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Research / August 2008



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Sheet Analogy for Space Curvature

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Murat Ozer - 31 Jul 2008 18:02 GMT
Hello,
I'd like to ask about the sheet analogy for space curvature. As you
know,  if a  ball were placed on a rubber sheet a cuplike depression
would be created. A marble placed near the depression rolls down the
slope toward the  ball as if pulled by a force.  In addition, if the
marble is given a sideways push, it will describe an orbit around the
ball, as if a steady pull toward the ball is swinging the marble into
a closed path. My questions are:

(1) Is it true that this analogy is originally by Einstein? If so, is
there a reference to it?

(2) The analogy does not mention the presence of Earth and its
gravitational field below the sheet and the ball; but of course they
are there. So, does this analogy really deserve to be called an
argument for space curvature by a mass (ball)?

(3) The original analogy is said to be for space-time curvature? How
does "time" fit in the analogy?

Thanks for your comments,
Murat
Chalky - 03 Aug 2008 11:10 GMT
> Hello,
> I'd like to ask about the sheet analogy for space curvature. As you
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ball, as if a steady pull toward the ball is swinging the marble into
> a closed path. My questions are:

> (2) The analogy does not mention the presence of Earth and its
> gravitational field below the sheet and the ball; but of course they
> are there.

Quite. The analogy only works if you have an (unexplained)
gravitational field orthogonal to the plane of the sheet before the
weight is applied, which is why I have never found this analogy very
satisfactory.
Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply - 03 Aug 2008 15:35 GMT
In article
<3aaea8db-3f64-468d-809c-7a4f6acc45d2@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Murat Ozer <Murat.H.Ozer@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello,
> I'd like to ask about the sheet analogy for space curvature. As you
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ball, as if a steady pull toward the ball is swinging the marble into
> a closed path. My questions are:

> (2) The analogy does not mention the presence of Earth and its
> gravitational field below the sheet and the ball; but of course they
> are there. So, does this analogy really deserve to be called an
> argument for space curvature by a mass (ball)?

This is an interesting point.  The driving force in the analogy, of
course, is the gravitational field of the Earth.  According to the
equivalence principle, one could get the same effect by having the sheet
accelerate through an extra dimension.  (Maybe someone has even
seriously suggested this---it would explain why gravitation is
manifested as acceleration.)

> (3) The original analogy is said to be for space-time curvature? How
> does "time" fit in the analogy?

This distinction, and the whole rubber-sheet analogy, are often treated
rather superficially in non-expert texts, and usally aren't mentioned in
expert texts.  There is an interesting description in Berry's book
Principles of Cosmology and Gravitation.  This is a short book, by a
physicist who works mainly in other fields, is not too difficult, and is
a good introduction to the subject.
Chalky - 03 Aug 2008 15:36 GMT
> Hello,
> I'd like to ask about the sheet analogy for space curvature. As you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (3) The original analogy is said to be for space-time curvature? How
> does "time" fit in the analogy?

It doesn't. As demonstrated by your description of motion, the
dimension of time is also orthogonal to the dimensions of the rubber
sheet.
J. B. Wood - 04 Aug 2008 17:42 GMT
In article
<3aaea8db-3f64-468d-809c-7a4f6acc45d2@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Murat
Ozer <Murat.H.Ozer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> I'd like to ask about the sheet analogy for space curvature. As you
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ball, as if a steady pull toward the ball is swinging the marble into
> a closed path.

Hello, and I remember posting something about this a couple of years
back.  Using the cause to demonstrate the effect to demonstrate the
cause.  What I continue to be puzzled about is not the demonstration of
curved space-time but why there should be a gravitational force that
accompanies the curved space-time.  And by force, I mean in the classic
sense: the ability to move (accelerate) mass some distance and thus do
work.  Sincerely,

John Wood (Code 5550)        e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil                    
Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337
Gerry Quinn - 05 Aug 2008 23:47 GMT
> In article
> <3aaea8db-3f64-468d-809c-7a4f6acc45d2@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Murat
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> sense: the ability to move (accelerate) mass some distance and thus do
> work.  Sincerely,

Interestingly, the effect on light is intuitively obvious; treating
light as a wave we can see that if there is 'more space' closer to the
gravitating mass (or, alternatively, light travels slower closer to the
mass in terms of flat space coordinates) light will bend towards the
mass.

Here's how I look at it:

Suppose we make a massless box with mirrors on the inside, and fill it
with light, then place it in a region of curved spacetime near a
gravitating mass.  We can see that light travelling from side to side
will get bent by the spatial curvature, and will cause a net downward
pressure on the mirrors (because it bends towards the mass).  

We can also see that the blue-shifted light reflecting from the bottom
of the box will apply more downward pressure than the red-shifted light
reflecting from the top applies pressure upward.

So our box of light will experience a net attraction towards the
gravitating mass.

In point of fact, our mirrored box is not such a bad model of matter -
it's reasonable to imagine that all matter can ultimately be described
in terms of massless[*] particles of some kind held in a bound state.  
The mirrored box is a very literal embodiment of this.

- Gerry Quinn

[*]Assuming mass is not fundamental, then it must ultimately derive from
the interactions of massless entities.
Oh No - 07 Aug 2008 20:41 GMT
Thus spake J. B. Wood <wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil>
>In article
><3aaea8db-3f64-468d-809c-7a4f6acc45d2@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> ball, as if a steady pull toward the ball is swinging the marble into
>> a closed path.

I think a better analogy is that of a map of the surface of the earth
(indeed this is the basis of the mathematical description of curved
spacetime). We understand that the surface is curved because the scale
factor of the map varies from point to point (as described by the metric
in the form of the line element).

>Hello, and I remember posting something about this a couple of years
>back.  Using the cause to demonstrate the effect to demonstrate the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>sense: the ability to move (accelerate) mass some distance and thus do
>work

Applying the above idea to space-time, in any given map (more precisely,
chart) the rate of time varies from point to point.

A fairly direct way to see that this affects energy (and hence force) is
to think of the effect on a wave function. (a little naughty, because we
don't actually have a consistent quantum gravity, but directly
measurable classically in the case of light). Changing rate of time
implies changing frequency, hence changing energy.

This was the argument Einstein originally found for curvature in the
equivalence principle in 1907. He initially showed, from sr, that a
constantly accelerating reference frame would require changes in clock
speed depending on position wrt the observers clock.

It took some while to put this into a mathematical theory, and it tends
to be a bit lost in modern mathematical treatments of gtr. I have made
it central in my treatment at

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex

See, in particular, for the conceptual background, and for a graphical
demonstration of the equivalence between constant acceleration and
changing rate of clocks wrt position

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/BasicsOfCurvature
http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/TheEquivalencePrinciple

Regards

Signature

Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

Murat Ozer - 15 Aug 2008 20:30 GMT
> Thus spake J. B. Wood <w...@itd.nrl.navy.mil>
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> factor of the map varies from point to point (as described by the metric
> in the form of the line element).

We already know that the surface of a sphere is curved. I do not see
how this is a (better) analogy for space(time) curvature around a
massive
object. Or, is it implied that at r = R(radius of the sphere) the
surface is curved,
and hence at r > R the surface is curved due to the mass of the
sphere? Is this
what is implied?

Thanks,
Murat

> >Hello, and I remember posting something about this a couple of years
> >back.  Using the cause to demonstrate the effect to demonstrate the
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
> braces)
Oh No - 19 Aug 2008 15:39 GMT
Thus spake Murat Ozer <Murat.H.Ozer@gmail.com>
>> Thus spake J. B. Wood <w...@itd.nrl.navy.mil>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>sphere? Is this
>what is implied?

No. If you chart a plane through a gravitating body, then you will not
find the same scaling values at all points of the chart. Likewise if you
chart the time-radial plane, you will not have the same rate of time at
all radii. I have some diagrams at

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/TheEquivalencePrinciple

to show that a variable scaling for time is equivalent to acceleration
of an inertial object.

Regards

Signature

Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex

Murat Ozer - 21 Aug 2008 20:17 GMT
>  Thus spake Murat Ozer <Murat.H.O...@gmail.com>
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex

Let me express my difficulty in a different way. Suppose that we have
a gravitating body in the shape of a perfectly smooth cube (of side
length r = a) with no structure on it. How do we chart the cube and
conclude that space outside it (namely at r > a) is curved?

Regards,
Murat
Oh No - 24 Aug 2008 21:07 GMT
Thus spake Murat Ozer <Murat.H.Ozer@gmail.com>

[Moderator's note: Some quoted text deleted.  -P.H.]

>Let me express my difficulty in a different way. Suppose that we have
>a gravitating body in the shape of a perfectly smooth cube (of side
>length r = a) with no structure on it. How do we chart the cube and
>conclude that space outside it (namely at r > a) is curved?

We do not have exact solutions for Einstein's field equation in the
general case. The solution for a cube will be approximate to that for a
sphere with the same mass and density. Likewise the smoothness of the
surface will make little difference to the solution. The geometry of
spacetime in the region of a gravitating body is related to the density
of matter, not directly to the geometry of the surface of the
gravitating object. To model the geometry of spacetime surrounding a
cube, one would start from a Schwarzschild geometry and perturb the
solution numerically.

Regards

Signature

Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex

Gerry Quinn - 11 Aug 2008 16:26 GMT
> In article
> <3aaea8db-3f64-468d-809c-7a4f6acc45d2@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Murat
> Ozer <Murat.H.Ozer@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Hello,
> > I'd like to ask about the sheet analogy for space curvature. As you
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> sense: the ability to move (accelerate) mass some distance and thus do
> work.  Sincerely,

Interestingly, the effect on light is intuitively obvious; treating
light as a wave we can see that if there is 'more space' closer to the
gravitating mass (or, alternatively, light travels slower closer to the
mass in terms of flat space coordinates) light will bend towards the
mass.

Here's how I look at it:

Suppose we make a massless box with mirrors on the inside, and fill it
with light, then place it in a region of curved spacetime near a
gravitating mass.  We can see that light travelling from side to side
will get bent by the spatial curvature, and will cause a net downward
pressure on the mirrors (because it bends towards the mass).

We can also see that the blue-shifted light reflecting from the bottom
of the box will apply more downward pressure than the red-shifted light
reflecting from the top applies pressure upward.

So our box of light will experience a net attraction towards the
gravitating mass.

In point of fact, our mirrored box is not such a bad model of matter -
it's reasonable to imagine that all matter can ultimately be described
in terms of massless[*] particles of some kind held in a bound state.
The mirrored box is a very literal embodiment of this.

- Gerry Quinn

[*]Assuming mass is not fundamental, then it must ultimately derive from
the interactions of massless entities.
 
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