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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Research / March 2010



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The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed

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Rock Brentwood - 07 Feb 2010 02:57 GMT
The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed

I'm going to offer an interesting perspective on the FW cosmology -- a
different take that brings to light (pun intended) what's hiding in
plain sight.

Contents:
(1) Flat FW Metric = Minkowski with Variable Light Speed
(2) The Geometric Quantities
(3) Solutions
    (3.1) Exponential Case
    (3.2) Power-Law Case
(4) The Horizon (Non-?)Problem and the Light-Cone Time Reflection

(1) Flat FW Metric = Minkowski with Variable Light Speed
The FW metric is
    ds^2 = dt^2 - A^2 R^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
where the spatial section has a curved metric with a conformal factor
given by
    R = 1/(1 - kr^2)
    k > 0 -> Hyperspherical,
    k = 0 -> Flat,
    k < 0 -> Hyperbolic
and A = A(t) > 0 is a function of time. As best as we can resolve, the
k = 0 case applies so that the metric can be written simply as
    ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2
or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
= c(t). Equivalently, this can be written
    ds^2 = dt^2 - alpha(t) (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
with a variable signature parameter alpha(t) = 1/c(t)^2 > 0.

The Big Bang "singularity" is a signature-changing boundary on which
alpha = 0 and across which alpha may go negative for t < 0 to a
signature comprising 4 space-like dimensions and none of time. If it
does, then the different signatures involved are:
    alpha > 0: Lorentzian ("relativistic")
    alpha = 0: Galilean ("non-relativistic")
    alpha < 0: 4-dimensional Euclidean

If alpha -> 0 as t -> 0 at least as fast as alpha(t) = O(t^2), or A(t)
= O(t), then light cones flatten out to infinity at t = 0. Otherwise,
they land on t = 0 at a FINITE radius
    H_T = integral (c(t) dt) from t = 0 to T (T = current time)
called the Cosmological Horizon.

In both cases, the t = 0 surface is a non-relativistic surface of
absolute simultaneity, and is the envelope of all past light cones.

The remaining case is where A(t) is exponential or something more
bizarre (e.g. hyperbolic cosine). Then there is no alpha = 0 or A = 0,
and no "singularity". Only the exponential occurs for the flat case k
= 0. Hyperbolic sines, hyperbolic cosines can occur for k > 0, and
sines and cosines can occur for k < 0.

(2) The Geometric Quantities
These are the details on the various geometric quantities formed of
the metric:
    g_{00} = 1,
    g_{i0} = 0 = g_{0j},
    g_{ij} = -(1/c)^2 delta_{ij}

The notation used is:
    delta_{ij} = Kroenecker delta
    i, j, k, etc. = 1, 2, 3 below;
    (x^1,x^2,x^3) = (x,y,z), x^0 = t.
    ()' denotes d()/dt.

Dual metric:
    g^{00} = 1,
    g^{i0} = 0 = g^{0j},
    g^{ij} = -c^2 delta^{ij}

Levi-Civita Connection:
    Gamma^k_{i0} = -(c'/c) delta^k_i
    Gamma^k_{0j} = -(c'/c) delta^k_j
    Gamma^0_{ij} = -alpha (c'/c) delta_{ij}
    All other components are 0

Riemann Tensor:
    R^k_{jil} = alpha (c'/c)^2 (delta^k_i delta_{lj} - delta^k_l
delta_{ij})
    R^k_{0i0} = (c''/c - 2(c'/c)^2) delta^k_i
    R^k_{00l} = -(c''/c - 2(c'/c)^2) delta^k_l
    R^0_{ji0} = alpha (c''/c - 2(c'/c)^2) delta_{ji}
    R^0_{j0l} = -alpha (c''/c - 2(c'/c)^2) delta_{jl}
    All other components are 0

Ricci Tensor:
    R^k_i = (c''/c - 4(c'/c)^2) delta^k_i
    R^k_0 = 0 = R^0_j
    R^0_0 = 3 (c''/c - 2(c'/c)^2)

Curvature Scalar:
    R = 6 (c''/c - 3(c'/c)^2) = -3 alpha''/alpha.

The curvature scalar is just the acceleration of the signature
parameter alpha, up to proportion.

Einstein Tensor:
    G^k_i = (-2(c''/c) + 5(c'/c)^2) delta^k_i = 4/3 (alpha^{3/4})''/
alpha^{3/4}
    G^k_0 = 0 = G^0_j
    G^0_0 = 3 (c'/c)^2 = 3/4 (alpha'/alpha)^2.

(3) Solutions
The stress tensor can generally be decomposed into the following form:
    T^0_0 = -mu, T^i_0 = q^i, T^0_j = q_j, T^i_j = p delta^i_j + pi^i_j
    mu = energy density, q = (q^1, q^2, q^3) = energy flux,
    (q_1, q_2, q_3) = momentum density = q,
    p = pressure, pi = shear (symmetric and trace-free)

Given the field law T^k_i = K G^k_i, with K being the (non-zero)
proportionality coefficient, it follows that the source has the form
    q = 0 (stationary fluid),
    pi = 0 (shear-free)
    mu = -3K (c'/c)^2
    p = -K (2 c''/c - 5 (c'/c)^2) = -K (2 (c'/c)' - 3 (c'/c)^2).

The order 0, 1 and 2 derivatives are also rewritten as:
    A = 1/c = Expansion Parameter
    H = -c'/c = Hubble Parameter
    q = -(c''/c)/H^2 = Acceleration Parameter
Thus
    mu = -3K H^2, p = K (2q + 5) H^2

The equations of state
    p = (g - 1) mu, g = constant (gamma is used in place of "g" in the
literature)
produces a wide class of models that are consistent with the Killing
symmetry of the underlying metric. This leads to the following:
    (c'/c)' = 3/2 g (c'/c)^2
or
    (c/c')' = -3/2 g.

(3.1) Exponential Case
The case g = 0 yields either
    c(t) = c(T) = constant, or
    c' = c/tau, c(t) = c(T) exp((t-T)/tau).
In the former case, p, mu, G^m_n are all 0. In the latter case,
    p = -mu = 3K/tau^2
    T^m_n = -(3K/tau^2) delta^m_n
    G^m_n = (3/tau^2) delta^m_n
    tau = +/- sqrt(3/Lambda), Lambda = cosmological constant

Here, there is no alpha -> 0 or c -> 0 and no horizon. Instead, if tau
< 0, then alpha -> 0 exponentially, as t -> -infinity.

(3.2) Power-Law Cases
The case g non-zero yields
    c/c' = -3/2 g t -> c(t) = c(T) (T/t)^{2/(3g)}.
The signature parameter goes as
    alpha(t) = alpha(T) (t/T)^{4/(3g)).
It also follows that
    c'/c = -2/(3gt)
    c''/c = (1 + 3g/2) (c'/c)^2
    mu = -3K (2/(3gt))^2
    p = 3K(1 - g) (2/(3gt))^2

The case of 0 pressure (the "dust model") is g = 1. That yields a time
dependence of
    c(t) = c(T) (T/t)^{2/3}
    alpha(t) = alpha(T) (t/T)^{4/3}

The case of 0 stress tensor trace (the "radiation dominant model") is
given by R = 0, with a non-zero density mu:
    0 = T^m_m = 3p - mu = (3(g - 1) - 1) mu -> g = 4/3.
Then
    c(t) = c(T) (T/t)^{1/2}
    alpha(t) = alpha(T) t/T

(4) The Horizon (Non-?)Problem and the Light-Cone Time Reflection
As per the previous discussion: the Horizon goes off to infinity only
if g < 2/3. Otherwise it lands on the t = 0 surface at a distance
    H_T = integral c(t) dt = c(T) T integral (T/t)^{2/(3g)) d(t/T)
or
    H_T = c(T) T (3g)/(3g - 2).

The case of 0 pressure, g = 1, yields:
    H_T = 3 c(T) T.
The case of 0 stress tensor trace, g = 4/3, yields:
    H_T = 2 c(T) T.

If the earliest epoch were actually radiation-dominant all the way
down to t = 0, then alpha would go linear all the way to t = 0 and
could simply continue on linearly for t < 0 into negative values.

Then the "horizon problem" becomes a red herring. This is underscored
by a closer examination of what happens to the light cones at t = 0.

In particular, look at the past light cones of t = t0 (where t0 is
inside the radiation-dominant sector which, again, we're assuming goes
all the way to t = 0), as t = 0. Solving
    dr = c(t) dt = c(t0) (t0/t)^{2/(3g)} dt
    r(t0) = 0
we get
    r(t) = 3g/(3g-2) c(t0) t0 (1 - (t/t0)^{(2-3g)/(3g)}).

For the case g = 4/3, we get
    r(t) = 2 c(t0) t0 (1 - (t/t0)^{1/2}).
or
    t t0 = (t0 - r/(2 c(t0)))^2

This is a parabola that reflects off of t = 0 at the cosmological
horizon:
    H_{t0} = 2 c(t0) t0.
and then going outwards in the FUTURE direction into space outside the
horizon. The past light cone for t > 0 is connected to:
    (a) the Galilean non-relativistic sector, t = 0, within the horizon,
    (b) the Euclidean sector, t < 0, in its entirety,
    (c) the Lorentzian sector, t > 0, OUTSIDE the outward-directed future-
pointing light cones emanating from the horizon.
eric gisse - 08 Feb 2010 09:40 GMT
[...]

> (1) Flat FW Metric = Minkowski with Variable Light Speed
> The FW metric is
> ds^2 = dt^2 - A^2 R^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> where the spatial section has a curved metric with a conformal factor

The FW manifold is only spatially flat. It still has nonzero components of
its' Riemann curvature tensor.

> given by
> R = 1/(1 - kr^2)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
> = c(t).

Three points:

1: c(t) is dimensionless.

Hubble's constant is defined via the FRW manifold and the corresponding
Friedmann equations assuming a perfect fluid universe by the equation H =
(dc/dt) / c, in your notation.

Given that H has units of [T^-1], c(t) must be dimensionless.

So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.

2: Going back to non-natural units the metric takes the following form:

ds^2 = c^2dt^2 - A(t)^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2) where c is the *actual* speed
of light, and A(t) is the expansion parameter that defines how far apart
successive spatial hyperslices are from the previous instant in conformal
time.

Again, A(t) is not the speed of light.

3: Learn the difference between the local structure and global structure of
spacetime.

Every nontrivial solution to the Einstein field equations can be cast in a
form that manifests 'variable' light speed. A simple example of this is
Shapiro delay, another would be gravitational lensing.

> Equivalently, this can be written
> ds^2 = dt^2 - alpha(t) (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> with a variable signature parameter alpha(t) = 1/c(t)^2 > 0.
>
> The Big Bang "singularity" is a signature-changing boundary on which

No, it is a proper singularity. Draw the space-time diagram.

> alpha = 0 and across which alpha may go negative for t < 0 to a
> signature comprising 4 space-like dimensions and none of time. If it
> does, then the different signatures involved are:
> alpha > 0: Lorentzian ("relativistic")
> alpha = 0: Galilean ("non-relativistic")
> alpha < 0: 4-dimensional Euclidean

For cosmologically relevant A(t), the big bang singularity is a singular
point in the FRW manifold. Singularities of this type can not be pushed away
with a coordinate transformation, nor can they be traversed.

In general relativity it is mandated not only by the variational methods
under which the field equations are derived, but by the meaning of
coordinate charts, that the signature of a manifold be _constant_.

[snip rest]
Jenny - 09 Feb 2010 07:55 GMT
> > ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2
> > or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
> > = c(t).

> 1: c(t) is dimensionless.

> Hubble's constant is defined via the FRW manifold and the corresponding
> Friedmann equations assuming a perfect fluid universe by the equation H =
> (dc/dt) / c, in your notation.

> Given that H has units of [T^-1], c(t) must be dimensionless.

> So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.

Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be
dimensionless (i.e  dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which
seems not only reasonable,  but necessary)**.

So c(t) has dimensions of velocity as might be expected.

** If you don't see it yet,  here are the details, step by step:

[T^-1]  = [LT^-1][T^-1]/[dim c(t)]

solving for [dim c(t)]

[dim c(t)] = [LT^-1] [T^-1]/[T^-1]

[dim c(t)] =  [LT^-1] = dimensions of velocity - as expected.

[snip rest]

Love,
Jenny
eric gisse - 10 Feb 2010 07:45 GMT
>> > ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2
>> > or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> [T^-1]  = [LT^-1][T^-1]/[dim c(t)]

You assume c(t) has dimensions of [LT^-1]. You obtain the result you want.

You could also just look and notice that given dt^2 has units of L^2 for
natural units, and that (dx^i)^2 all have units of L^2 as well, and observe
that c(t)^2 has to be dimensionless.

> solving for [dim c(t)]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Love,
> Jenny
Jenny - 10 Feb 2010 23:39 GMT
e <jowr.pi.nos...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> > ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2

> >> Given that H has units of [T^-1], c(t) must be dimensionless.

> >> So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.

> > Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be
> > dimensionless (i.e  dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which
> > seems not only reasonable,  but necessary)**.

> > So c(t) has dimensions of velocity as might be expected.

> You assume c(t) has dimensions of [LT^-1]. You obtain the result you want.

No, look again. Up to this stage I merely stated that "dc and c(t)
must have the same dimensions - which seems not only reasonable,  but
necessary".

> You could also just look and notice that given dt^2 has units of L^2 for
> natural units, and that (dx^i)^2 all have units of L^2 as well, and observe
> that c(t)^2 has to be dimensionless.

He (and I ) weren't using natural units. But if you want to use
natural units *in which c is dimensionless* then c(t) must also be
dimensionless. So it seems to me that he's still right.

If c (a velocity) is dimensionless, why do you find fault if  c(t) (a
welocity) also  turns out to be dimensionless?

Love,
Jenny
eric gisse - 13 Feb 2010 11:56 GMT
> e <jowr.pi.nos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> must have the same dimensions - which seems not only reasonable,  but
> necessary".

*sigh*

A derivative of f(x) drops the order in x by 1, this is basic calculus. If,
for example, f(x) has initial units [L^2], df/dx is going to have units [L].

Work it out yourself using some simple functions.

For dc and c to have the same units, c(t) must have NO UNITS.

>> You could also just look and notice that given dt^2 has units of L^2 for
>> natural units, and that (dx^i)^2 all have units of L^2 as well, and
>> observe that c(t)^2 has to be dimensionless.
>
> He (and I ) weren't using natural units.

Yes, he was. Familiarize yourself with the line element of Minkowski space
in both natural and SI units.

> But if you want to use
> natural units *in which c is dimensionless* then c(t) must also be
> dimensionless.

Ok, you don't know what natural units are.

Natural units are a scaling of coordinates such that the fundamental
constants that scaled things previously are now equal to 1. That does not
make the units go away.

Particle physicists measure the rest mass of particles in terms of electron
volts. An electron volt is a measure of energy, but in natural units where c
= 1, it is equivalent to energy via special relativity.

> So it seems to me that he's still right.

No, he's wrong.

> If c (a velocity) is dimensionless, why do you find fault if  c(t) (a
> welocity) also  turns out to be dimensionless?

...because I know what units are?

You've clearly fallen for his labeling trick of calling the expansion
parameter c(t) a 'speed' even though it is obviously nothing of the sort.

> Love,
> Jenny
John Park - 13 Feb 2010 22:14 GMT
>> e <jowr.pi.nos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> For dc and c to have the same units, c(t) must have NO UNITS.
[...]

Unclear whether you were using "dc" to mean a differential or a derivative.
(Confusion between round d and normal d?)

    --John Park
Jenny - 14 Feb 2010 08:30 GMT
> > For dc and c to have the same units, c(t) must have NO UNITS.

> Unclear whether you were using "dc" to mean a differential or a derivative.
> (Confusion between round d and normal d?)

Actually, it's not unclear. "dc" is being used as a differential,  as
per Rock Brentwood's equation in his opening post:

ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2                          (1)

The conventional form for that equation would have been:

ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c^2
(2)

Note that equations (1) and  (2) are not in natural units.  In natural
units, c=1 and equation  (2) would  become:

ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/1

Since Rock is postulating a variable c [c(t)], it wouldn't make sense
for him to use natural units in which  equation (1) would become:

ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/1(t)

where the number "1" would be a function of time.

Love,
Jenny
eric gisse - 14 Feb 2010 16:37 GMT
>> > For dc and c to have the same units, c(t) must have NO UNITS.
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Love,
> Jenny

Yes, it doesn't make sense. Most likely because IT IS NOT A SPEED. When you
get to the point where you have to say "...the number "1" would be a
function of time.", you are probably on the wrong track.

He relabeled the expansion parameter that is usually called 'a(t)' to 'c(t)'
and has purposefully invoked confusion on people who just don't understand
what is going on. It is obvious both by inspection and direct computation
that c(t) is not a speed of anything, it is a dimensionless scaling factor
between successive hyperslices of time.

Relabeling terms does not dictate physics. That I have had to say this a
half dozen times in sci.physics.research and it has yet to sink in is rather
remarkable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedmann?Lemaître?Robertson?Walker_metric

The VERY FIRST equation. Look at it. LOOK AT IT.

Now look at Rock's equation. Notice that a(t) and c(t) are the exact same
thing? That this needs to be done at all much less six times is
embarrassing.
Jenny - 15 Feb 2010 23:09 GMT
> > where the number "1" would be a function of time.

> Yes, it doesn't make sense. Most likely because IT IS NOT A SPEED. When you
> get to the point where you have to say "...the number "1" would be a
> function of time.", you are probably on the wrong track.

It was a reductio ad absurdum intended to show that you were on the
wrong track.

First in claiming that dc was a derivative, not a differential.
Second in claiming that c(t) was dimensionless.
Third in claiming that postulating that c was a variable makes no
difference to the physics implied by the equation.

> He relabeled the expansion parameter that is usually called 'a(t)'
to 'c(t)'

No. he POSTULATED that the speed of light was a variable [c(t)]. He
did not EQUATE c(t)  [which has dimensions of velocity] with a(t)
[which is dimensionless and was SUBSUMED INTO c(t)]

> and has purposefully invoked confusion on people who just don't understand
> what is going on. It is obvious both by inspection and direct computation
> that c(t) is not a speed of anything, it is a dimensionless scaling factor
> between successive hyperslices of time.

OK, let's get rid of the confusion. First stop dimensional analysis as
per my post of February 9th.

Once more unto the breach:

Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1](as you claimed),
then dc/c must be
dimensionless (i.e  dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which
seems not only reasonable,  but necessary)**.

So c(t) has dimensions of velocity as might be expected.

** If you don't see it yet,  here are the details, step by step:

H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1]

[T^-1]  = [LT^-1][T^-1]/[dim c(t)]

solving for [dim c(t)]

[dim c(t)] = [LT^-1] [T^-1]/[T^-1]

[dim c(t)] =  [LT^-1] = dimensions of velocity - as expected.

IF THIS IS WRONG,  SHOW WHERE THE ERROR IS MADE, DON"T JUST ARMWAVE.

To avoid confusion, let's focus on this ONE issue.

Once we've agreed on the dimensions of c(t),  we can proceed.

[repetition snipped}

Love
Jenny
Tom Roberts - 14 Feb 2010 17:32 GMT
> per Rock Brentwood's equation in his opening post:
> ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2                          (1)

In this equation, c(t) is the COORDINATE speed of light (and s has the rather
unusual units of seconds). By omitting that adjective, all participants in this
thread have become confused and are talking past each other, as each says "speed
of light" but means something different by that phrase.

As is well known, GR is completely independent of coordinates, and people can
all too easily become confused when they attempt to ascribe physical properties
to coordinate-dependent quantities -- they can be discussing properties of the
coordinates rather than any physical properties of anything. That is the case in
this thread.

That COORDINATE speed of light is not what any sensible experimenter would
measure: using a pre-1983 definition of the meter, the experimenter would
measure the flight time of light over a measured distance, and divide to compute
the speed. Knowing about the effects of curvature, the limit to zero distance
would be taken, and in GR this procedure is guaranteed to obtain the standard
value c. In particular it does NOT obtain c(t) of the above equation (assuming
the above equation does indeed give the metric).

It's not clear to me why Rock Brentwood wrote it that way, rather than in the
standard FRW form with zero spatial curvature (which is a trivial algebraic
manipulation from the above, and uses standard units):

    ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - a(t)^2 (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

See, e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedmann%E2%80%93Lema%C3%AEtre%E2%80%93Robertson%E
2%80%93Walker_metric
\

In this metric, a(t) is a time-dependent spatial expansion, but there's no
expectation or implication that is is related to "speed of light". I think the
confusion in this thread is directly related to his non-standard notation. Plus
the inadvertent and unacknowledged PUNs as I said above.

Tom Roberts
Juan R. - 15 Feb 2010 18:29 GMT
Tom Roberts wrote on Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:32:25 +0100:

(...)

> It's not clear to me why Rock Brentwood wrote it that way, rather than
> in the standard FRW form with zero spatial curvature (which is a trivial
> algebraic manipulation from the above, and uses standard units):
>
>     ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - a(t)^2 (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  [1]

(...)

It is rather usual to rewrite the above in forms more suitable to several
analysis. For instance, an usual rewrite is the scaled Minkoskian

    ds^2 = Omega^2 {c^2 dt_c^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)}  [2]

Where Omega is the conformal factor of scale. Another rewrite is

    ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  [3]

where c(t) is a variable ligth speed given by

       c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

Signature

http://www.canonicalscience.org/

BLOG:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/publicationzone/canonicalsciencetoday/canonic
alsciencetoday.html

Tom Roberts - 16 Feb 2010 08:06 GMT
> It is rather usual to rewrite the above in forms more suitable to several
> analysis. [...]

Re-writing the line element to assist analysis is indeed normal. But switching
the unit of distance from cm to seconds is not so "usual" (which is what Rock did).

>      ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  [3]
> where c(t) is a variable ligth speed [...[

But, of course, here c(t) is a variable COORDINATE light speed, not the value
that any sensible experimenter would actually measure, and not what is usually
meant (in this context) by "speed of light" without the qualifier "coordinate".
Note that dt is NOT a time interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.

    As I said before: c(t) is not any kind of speed -- it does
    not represent (distance traveled)/(travel time) for anything.

Tom Roberts
Juan R. - 16 Feb 2010 11:09 GMT
Tom Roberts wrote on Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:06:04 +0100:

>> It is rather usual to rewrite the above in forms more suitable to
>> several analysis. [...]
>
> Re-writing the line element to assist analysis is indeed normal. But
> switching the unit of distance from cm to seconds is not so "usual"
> (which is what Rock did).

He gave us proper time in the usual units of seconds. It is rather
usual to denote proper time by the letter "s" also, but this can
confound, and in fact it did, some people. I am using s for the
element of line.

>>      ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  [3]
>> where c(t) is a variable ligth speed [...[
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> without the qualifier "coordinate". Note that dt is NOT a time
> interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.

No. dt is a time interval (in fact the same time interval than in the
original FRW expression). However, c(t)dt is not. The dimensions are

[c(t)dt] = m s^-1 s = m

>     As I said before: c(t) is not any kind of speed -- it does not
>     represent (distance traveled)/(travel time) for anything.

If you look closely to the definition that you sniped from your reply
you will see that c(t) is a variable speed of light that contains the
constant speed ogf light c as a particular case (set a(t) = 1).

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robert bristow-johnson - 16 Feb 2010 17:12 GMT
> > It is rather usual to rewrite the above in forms more suitable to several
> > analysis. [...]
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> But, of course, here c(t) is a variable COORDINATE light speed, not the value
> that any sensible experimenter would actually measure,

then, what difference does variation of it make?  what meaning can be
ascribed to a variable speed of propagation (of EM, gravity, strong
force, whatever "instantaneous" interaction) when such variation
cannot be noticed?  what meaning is there in the concept of variation
of *any* dimensionful physical quantity?  we don't measure (or
experience in our life experience) any dimensionful physical quantity
directly, it is always relative to a standard of like dimension
(sometimes we define these standards as "units" or some fixed multiple
of unit definitions).

i might suggest that Rock read some Micheal Duff like "Comment on time-
variation of fundamental constants", arΧiv:hep-th/0208093.

suppose the definition of the meter was reverted to what it was before
1960 so that it would be *possible* for physicists to measure a
difference in the number of meters that are displaced in the time
fixed by one second, then what has really changed is some
dimensionless parameter (i think it would be the ratio of c to
eps_0*h_bar/e^2 or maybe of the Bohr radius to the Planck length).  it
is the variation of the root dimensionless "constant" that is
meaningful, not of any dimensionful constant whether it's c or G or
hbar or whatever.

just the opinion of a Neanderthal engineer who thinks about how things
are measured or even perceived to change.

r b-j
Phillip Helbig - 17 Feb 2010 09:27 GMT
robert bristow-johnson wrote on Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:12:01 +0100:

>> > It is rather usual to rewrite the above in forms more suitable to
>> > several analysis. [...]
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> strong force, whatever "instantaneous" interaction) when such
> variation cannot be noticed?

But tom is unaware that those variable speeds *are measured*.

Already in his early work 'On the Influence of Gravitation on the
Propagation of Light', Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911 Einstein proposed
the variable speed of light

c' = c (1 + Phi/c^2)

to explain light bending. This was wrong because at that time he
worked a scalar theory of gravity that was not GR. The modern
expression for variable speed of light is given in textbooks on GR.
E.g. Moller (1972) denotes it as c* = c*(r,t) and gives its value
for typical cases. For cosmology, it may be only a function of time
c*(t). For a static spacetime this variable speed is a function of
position only c*(r).

For instance see eq 6.28 in "Relativity, Gravitation, and Cosmology"
by T. Cheng (2005) (Note he uses another notation)

c(r) = c (1 + 2Phi/c^2)

This approx. expression has been traditionally used for the
measurement of light bending around Sun. Moller (1972) gives a more
general expression (eq 8.73)

c*(r) = c sqrt(-g_44)

valid beyond the weak-field limit.

Moller also explain in the same page how the measurement of c* can be
done from Fizeau-type experiments. In weak-field experiments terms
Phi^2 and larger can be ignored and then the expression reduces to
c*(r) = c (1 + 2Phi/c^2)

In his talk "Gravity Science from Transponded Interplanetary Laser
Ranging" given at 13th International Workshop on Laser Ranging:
Proceedings from the Science Session, K. Nordtvedt explained how the
LATOR mission will be testing the general expression

c(r,t) = c (1 - (1+gamma) U(r,t)/c^2)

where gamma is Eddington parameter and U an gravitational potential.
He adds:

 "The slowing, globally viewed, of the speed of light near
  gravitating matter is measured by both the resulting deflection of
  light rays and the increased time of flight of the rays when
  passing through the gravitational potentials. LATOR's remarkable
  ability to measure this key fraction to more than four orders of
  magnitude higher precision than present knowledge is a result of
  being able to add to this mission a space-based laser
  interferometer for measuring a key angle between the light rays."

In their work "The fundamental definition of radial velocity"
A&A 401, 1185-1201 (2003), L. Lindegren and D. Dravins give several
expressions for radial speeds used by astronomers and astrophysicists.
I reproduce some of them

v_r == dr*/dt* = c(dt_obs/dt* - 1)

v_r^(1) = cz

which are associated to measurements. For instance they notice that
the latter expression is named the "optical velocity" in literature.

They give a more lengthy expression in their (13). They name c the
"conventional speed of light" to differentiate them from a variable
(both in space and time) speed of light:

 "The delay term is required to take into account that the coordinate
  speed of light in the presence of a gravitational field is less
  than c in the adopted metric, so that the first term in Eq. (13)
  [...] To first order in c^(=E2=88'2) , the coordinate speed of light in
  the BCRS metric is given by |dr/dt| = c(1 =E2=88' 2Phi/c^2).

Tom, just do not understand that we can measure coordinate quantities.
In fact, Tom has claimed in another thread that kinetic energy and
length are unphysical quantities, but both are physical are measurable.

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Tom Roberts - 17 Feb 2010 16:25 GMT
> But tom is unaware that those variable speeds *are measured*.

Not true. You ignored the context AND CONTENT of my writings, and clearly do not
have a clue about what I do or don't understand.

Such variable light speeds can certainly be measured over NON-LOCAL paths. But
attempts at modeling variable light speed with the metric I quoted earlier are
completely ineffective, because in GR the local speed of light is always c (=1
in the usual units).

    That metric was: ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

Note that in GR for a NON-local measurement, values for the speed of light other
than c can easily be obtained. It is only the LOCAL speed of light that is
constrained to equal c (here c is the usual constant, not the function c(t) in
the line element above).

> Already in his early work 'On the Influence of Gravitation on the
> Propagation of Light', Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911 Einstein proposed
> the variable speed of light
> c' = c (1 + Phi/c^2)

As you point out, this is not GR. In GR, one obtains this formula as an
APPROXIMATION for a NON-LOCAL measurement in a weak-field region.

> Tom, just do not understand that we can measure coordinate quantities.
> In fact, Tom has claimed in another thread that kinetic energy and
> length are unphysical quantities, but both are physical are measurable.

You COMPLETELY IGNORE the context, and the long-winded discussion I gave.

You COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact that you are using a PUN on the word "physical".
I explained that earlier and will do so (briefly) again.

There are two sensible meanings for the word "physical":

   A quantity is said to be physical(1) iff it can serve as a valid
   model of some physical phenomenon in the world being modeled.

   A quantity is said to be physical(2) if it can be measured.

As physics is the process of constructing models of the world, I consider
physical(1) to be a more appropriate use of the word.

I have discussed at length that no coordinate-dependent quantity can be
physical(1), because arbitrary human choices of coordinates cannot possibly
affect any physical phenomena. This includes kinetic energy and length. One can
make measurements of quantities related to kinetic energy and length, and thus
claim they are physical(2).

To explore this, consider measuring energy, and imagine we have a detector that
can measure the total energy of any particle that hits it. Let the detector be
at rest in locally-inertial frame S, and let it measure the energy of a
particle. What the detector actually measures is U.P, where U is the 4-velocity
of the detector, and P is the 4-momentum of the particle. As the detector is at
rest in S, U.P is equal to the energy of the particle with respect to S. Note,
however, that the measurement result is an INVARIANT, and that the coordinates
of S appear nowhere -- the measurement is COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of S, and
depends only on properties of the detector and its relationship to the particle
being measured. This has to be so, because it is clear that the very same
detector could be at rest in frame S' -- it still measures U.P, which now just
happens to be equal to the energy of the particle relative to S'.

    Note, please, that I never said this is a measurement of the
    particle's energy relative to S. Because it isn't. It is a
    measurement relative to the DETECTOR, but because the detector
    is at rest in S that is numerically equal to the energy of the
    particle relative to S.

This is a general property of the measurement process -- an instrument ALWAYS
projects the quantity being measured onto ITSELF, and no coordinates are ever
involved. The dependency is on properties of the DETECTOR, not on any
coordinates in which it happens to be at rest.

Tom Roberts
Jenny - 17 Feb 2010 19:50 GMT
> Such variable light speeds can certainly be measured over NON-LOCAL paths. But
> attempts at modeling variable light speed with the metric I quoted earlier are
> completely ineffective, because in GR the local speed of light is always c (=1
> in the usual units).

And that's why you're failing to understand what's being written.

>         That metric was: ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

The Minkowski metric is:

ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

In natural units, c=1 (a constant), but if we postulate that c is
variable then using natural units  c=1 prejudges the postulate.

Naturally (pun intended) c(t) can't be variable and constant at the
same time (pun intended).

If the speed of light is postulated to be variable it's easy to show
that it's inconsistent with the idea that it's a constant. And that's
all that you've done.

But to show that the postulate is logically wrong you have to show
that it's inconsistent with itself.

Minkowski metric if c is variable:

ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)      (1)

MW metric:

ds^2 =  dt^2 - a(t)^2(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)   (2)

But, as we all can see, they are the same equation if  a(t) = 1/c(t).

To accept (2) and deny the possibilty of (1) rests on the PREJUDGEMENT
that the speed of light is a constant. That this presupposition is
essential to GR is a debatable point. But we all suspect that GR has
to surender at some time. Why not today?

Cosmologically, AFAICT there are NO logical grounds to dispute the
equation, nor AFAICT can there be any empirical grounds
cosmologically.

On the quantum level, there might be empirical grounds, if the speed
of light varies rapidly (at a rate comparable to its  frequency).

It is there that the postulate will meet its fate.

The question becomes:Is a variable c(t) compatible with quantum
experiments?

Accepting c(t) as a variable might be a necessary element in finding
quantum gravity.

Love,.
Jenny
eric gisse - 18 Feb 2010 00:31 GMT
>> Such variable light speeds can certainly be measured over NON-LOCAL
>> paths. But attempts at modeling variable light speed with the metric I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> In natural units, c=1 (a constant), but if we postulate that c is
> variable then using natural units  c=1 prejudges the postulate.

The context was and continues to be general relativity, in which this
postulate is true.

[...]
Jenny - 18 Feb 2010 18:34 GMT
I'm trying not to be overly repetitive, and much of what follows is
more logic  than it isphysics. Nevertheless, I believe this response
is necessary. If we don't maintain a logical structure,  this thread
will become a mere list of  decrees by fiat.

> > In natural units, c=1 (a constant), but if we postulate that c is
> > variable then using natural units  c=1 prejudges the postulate.

> The context was and continues to be general relativity, in which this
> postulate is true.

I do agree with you on one point .  IF c is constant in GR, then
CERTAINLY we're not discussing GR.  But that's a FUNDAMENTALLY
MEANINGLESS point in the context of this thread.

I wrote in the post to which you're responding "...we all suspect that
GR has to surender at some time. Why not today"?

So it SHOULD have been quite CLEAR to those that actually READ my post
that I also don't think that  we're necessarily discussing GR or that
we HAD to be.

The context of these posts is THIS THREAD  - "The Big Bang and
Variable Light Speed".

The very title tells you that GR is not the context, if c is constant
in GR.

In THIS context, light speed IS variable. So YES,  let's stay within
context. and logical.

Using the same  logic that you're  using , in the context of THIS
THREAD, the postulate that the speed of light is variable is TRUE.

[You wrote: The context was and continues to be general relativity, in
which this  postulate is true. The logical structure is the SAME ].

The PARTICULAR context of this SUBTHREAD was the objection that you
actually gave. That  (in Rock's equation)

" c(t) is dimensionless... ...So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of
anything".

which I have clearly shown to be widely off the mark - whichever units
are used.

In this SUBSUBTHREAD, Philip Helbig, gave several examples of
discussions of variable light speed models ( some of it by Einstein).
I hesitate to overly quote, but it seems that you didn't read him ( at
least you didn't tell him that he was off topic.

e.g.
_______________
For instance see eq 6.28 in "Relativity, Gravitation, and Cosmology"
by T. Cheng (2005) (Note he uses another notation)
c(r) = c (1 + 2Phi/c^2)
...
Moller (1972) gives a more
general expression (eq 8.73)
...
In their work "The fundamental definition of radial velocity"
A&A 401, 1185-1201 (2003), L. Lindegren and D. Dravins give several
expressions for radial speeds used by astronomers and astrophysicists.
I reproduce some of them

v_r == dr*/dt* = c(dt_obs/dt* - 1)

v_r^(1) = cz

which are associated to measurements. For instance they notice that
the latter expression is named the "optical velocity" in literature.

They give a more lengthy expression in their (13). They name c the
"conventional speed of light" to differentiate them from a variable
(both in space and time) speed of light:
______________

So it's clearly a debatable topic with a respectable history. And
clearly my response is ON topic and IN context.

To REPEAT what I wrote.
___________________
IF we postulate that c is variable, we shouldn't PREJUDGE that
postulate merely. by saying that it contradicts some other POSTULATE

What we have to do is show that the POSTULATE leads to a logical
contradiction or is experimentally falsified. That's all that we have
to do.

But we all suspect that GR has to surrender at some time. Why not
today?
_____________________

THOSE  are the points that I made and you are NOT responding to  THOSE
points.

Love,
Jenny
Juan R. - 19 Feb 2010 00:23 GMT
Jenny wrote on Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:34:35 +0000:

(...)

> In this SUBSUBTHREAD, Philip Helbig, gave several examples of
> discussions of variable light speed models ( some of it by Einstein).
> I hesitate to overly quote, but it seems that you didn't read him (
> at least you didn't tell him that he was off topic.

Philip Helbig did not. The message which you are alluding to is from
mine, just look to the signature. There is some software bug that does
that some messages from mine approved by Philip Helbig are posted with
under his name. In other occasions they are posted twice, one with his
name and other with the mine. Just see my reply to Andreas approved
some minutes ago.

If you want to ask something about the references cited and the
expressions for variable speed of light used by astronomers and
astrophysicists, you would ask me not to him.

Apologies to moderators and readers by this strange bug.

(...)

Signature

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Juan R. - 18 Feb 2010 08:01 GMT
Tom Roberts wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:25:55 +0100:

>> But tom is unaware that those variable speeds *are measured*.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Such variable light speeds can certainly be measured over NON-LOCAL
> paths.

First, you have now deleted what you *really* said and also what
Robert bristow-johnson wrote in his reply to you. Just a note, your
previous message, which both bristow and me were replying did not
contain words as "NON-LOCAL" or "paths".

Second, what "NON-LOCAL paths" do you need to measure c*(r,t) at
spacetime point (r,t) or to measure c(t) in the OP at instant t?

> But attempts at modeling variable light speed with the metric I
> quoted earlier are completely ineffective, because in GR the local
> speed of light is always c (=1 in the usual units).

Why do you insist on confusing c with c* or with c(t) as given in
the OP?

*Any* element of line can be rewritten using c* = c*(r,t) like

ds^2 = g_ab dx^a dx^b = gamma_ij dx^i dx^j - (c* dt - gamma_i dx^i)^2

Above is equation 8.76 in Moller textbook. What is your problem with
this equation if any?

>     That metric was: ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
>
> Note that in GR for a NON-local measurement, values for the speed of
> light other than c can easily be obtained. It is only the LOCAL
> speed of light that is constrained to equal c (here c is the usual
> constant, not the function c(t) in the line element above).

The definition for c(t) was already given

c(t)^2 == c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

Why you insist on confounding c(t) with c is a complete mistery for me.

>> Already in his early work 'On the Influence of Gravitation on the
>> Propagation of Light', Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911 Einstein
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> As you point out, this is not GR. In GR, one obtains this formula as
> an APPROXIMATION for a NON-LOCAL measurement in a weak-field region.

(i)
First you are confounding the Einstein expression of 1911 with the
weak-field expression *obtained from GR*. I wrote the GR expression

c(r) = c (1 + 2Phi/c^2)

but you have deleted it now (including the references to texbooks of
GR I gave). Do you can see the factor 2?

(ii)
The above equation is local and valid for a given spacetime point.

(iii)
You have also deleted all the other references, including the
reference to LATOR measurements and the A&A paper giving the standard
expresions used by astronomers and astrophysicists in *real-life*
measurements.

>> Tom, just do not understand that we can measure coordinate
>> quantities. In fact, Tom has claimed in another thread that kinetic
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and length. One can make measurements of quantities related to kinetic
> energy and length, and thus claim they are physical(2).

But that is not what you *really* said. What you wrote is archived:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/335f5b99af5ecff9

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/9dcde64b62a770d6

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/cb5fff3d018a4df9

The first link contains your original message saying that kinetic
energy and magnetic field are *not* physical quantities and that anyone
saying the contrary, as PD, is wrong.

Second and third link contains some replies you received including the
response by PD.

In further replies in that thread *you* insisted in that they are not
classifiable as physical and that length is not physical also.
If you have changed your mind now, that is fine.

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Jenny - 16 Feb 2010 20:58 GMT
Juan wrote:

> >    ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  [3]
> > where c(t) is a variable light speed [...[
...
>  Note that dt is NOT a time interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.

On the contrary,  dt IS a time interval and c(t)dt IS a spatial
interval.

How  can they not be?

If c(t)dt were a time interval, then dx, dy and dz would also have to
be  time intervals. Otherwise equation (3) wouldn't be dimensionally
consistent.

POSTULATING that c(t) is a variable rather than a constant makes no
difference to the units.

AND c(t) is a speed, which is what was denied by eric, whose statement
I was correcting.

On the other hand, dividing the RHS by c(t)^2 does convert the units
of  ds on the LHS into seconds, without making ANY difference to the
fundamental accuracy of the equation.

>         As I said before: c(t) is not any kind of speed -- it does
>         not represent (distance traveled)/(travel time) for anything.

It represents the speed of light at a particular point in spacetime.

Are you claiming  that speed at a point in spacetime doesn't count as
speed because such a point has no duration?

Love,
Jenny
Tom Roberts - 17 Feb 2010 09:27 GMT
>>  Note that dt is NOT a time interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.
>
> On the contrary,  dt IS a time interval and c(t)dt IS a spatial
> interval.

This is just not true. You seem to be hung up on units, but here they are
irrelevant.

To reiterate: here we are discussing this line element:

    ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

    NOTE: as is usual, I use units with c=1, where c represents the
    invariant speed of the semi-Riemannian metric. Do not confuse
    this with c(t).

Remember that "time is what clocks measure" [Einstein]. If one used
clocks to determine the t coordinate, then dt would indeed be a time
interval. But in that case g_tt = 1. So in the above line element, since
g_tt != 1, it is QUITE CLEAR that dt is NOT a time interval. c(t)dt is a
time interval (corresponding to a clock on a trajectory with
dx=dy=dz=0).

Note that dx is a spatial interval, because the x, y, and z coordinates
were clearly constructed using standard rulers (or the post-1983
equivalent), and g_xx = g_yy = g_zz = -1.

Note that all this is usually discussed in day 1 of a GR course, and
rarely mentioned or thought about again. You (and several others around
here) need to review the basics.

> If c(t)dt were a time interval, then dx, dy and dz would also have to
> be  time intervals. Otherwise equation (3) wouldn't be dimensionally
> consistent.

This is GR, not physics 101. Dimensions (units) have NOTHING to do with
whether a given interval is spatial or temporal, because one can use any
appropriate unit for either or both; use cm, seconds, furlongs,
fortnights, or .... This is so because in modern physics the constant c
is a UNITS CONVERSION FACTOR; for convenience we normally use units with
c=1 (unitless!), which implies that space and time have the same units.
Most GR textbooks use cm as the unit for both spatial and temporal
intervals.

    Some GR textbook, I forget which, starts with a parable about
    a society that uses one unit for measuring distance in the
    east-west direction, and a different unit for the "sacred
    north-south direction". The point is clear: using seconds for
    time and meters for distance is of purely HISTORICAL interest,
    and has no impact on physics at all: one can convert from
    seconds to cm just as well as one can convert from cm to feet.
    The idea is to choose units that makes things easier, and
    units with c=1 do just that.

What distinguishes spatial and temporal intervals is the sign of ds^2.
With the above line element, if ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time interval, and
if ds^2 < 0 then ds is a spatial interval.

> POSTULATING that c(t) is a variable rather than a constant makes no
> difference to the units.

Yes. But as I keep pointing out, the units are IRRELEVANT -- your
failure to grasp that seems to be part of your confusion.

> AND c(t) is a speed,

No, c(t) is most definitely NOT a speed. I repeat: units DO NOT MATTER.
What matters is that speed is defined as (distance traveled)/(travel
time), and c(t) is not that for anything.

    Consider two points on a light pulse's trajectory along the x
    axis, let dx and dt be the coordinate differences between
    those two points, and let them be small enough so any variation
    in c(t) can be neglected. Then the travel distance between
    these points is |dx|, and the travel time is |c(t)dt| (in both
    cases I used the above line element). The light ray has ds=0,
    so it is also clear that |dx/dt|=|c(t)|. Do the algebra and
    you'll see that speed = (distance traveled)/(travel time) = 1.

> Are you claiming  that speed at a point in spacetime doesn't count as
> speed because such a point has no duration?

Good heavens, no. I'm merely pointing out that c(t) is not a speed
because it is not (distance traveled)/(travel time) for anything.

>>> Rock was making a POSTULATE. He POSTULATED  that the speed of light
>>> is a variable and he subsumed a(t) into c(t).
>> But his c(t) is NOT the speed of light.
>
> But he DEFINED it to be. It's up to you to explain why it can't be.

His "definition" was wrong. While he used a different line element, the
same discussion above applies and shows that his c(t) is NOT the speed
of light. With his line element, the speed of light is 1. This is so
because of the MEANING of "speed", and the structure of GR.

To get a variable speed of light, as I said before, one must either:
   A) abandon GR
or
   B) abandon Maxwell's equations and the notion that light travels
      along null geodesics

    [One pedantic point: everywhere I said "speed" I really meant
    "LOCAL speed". Over finite distances there's no expectation
    that the speed of light be 1, because the curvature of
    spacetime affects it. In the limit of zero path length the
    speed of light is always 1 in GR (using units with c=1).]

Tom Roberts
Juan R. - 17 Feb 2010 11:50 GMT
Tom Roberts wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:27:29 +0000:

>>>  Note that dt is NOT a time interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> interval. But in that case g_tt = 1. So in the above line element,
> since g_tt != 1, it is QUITE CLEAR that dt is NOT a time interval.

The fact is that dt is *exactly the same* dt for FRW metric. This
is why the same symbol is being used in both expressions

    ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

    ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - a(t)(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

Just see the definition of c(t) that *you sniped*. I reintroduce it

c(t)^2 == c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

Thus your own argument shows you are wrong.

> c(t)dt is a
> time interval (corresponding to a clock on a trajectory with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> coordinates were clearly constructed using standard rulers (or the
> post-1983 equivalent), and g_xx = g_yy = g_zz = -1.

Idem, dx is *exactly the same interval* than in original FRW metric.

Thus your own argument shows you are wrong.

(...)

>> If c(t)dt were a time interval, then dx, dy and dz would also have
>> to be  time intervals. Otherwise equation (3) wouldn't be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and time have the same units. Most GR textbooks use cm as the unit
> for both spatial and temporal intervals.

Right, one can redefine the units by an adequate change of units, but
space continue being space and time continues being time.

The situation is not specific of GR. For instance in spectroscopy we
often measure *energies* in cm^-1. The units are distance^-1 but we
are giving energies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_energy

> What distinguishes spatial and temporal intervals is the sign of
> ds^2. With the above line element, if ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time
> interval, and if ds^2 < 0 then ds is a spatial interval.

No, we say "timelike" and "spacelike" intervals. Moreover, the sign of
ds^2 does not change the fact that dt is a time interval and dx a
space interval with their corresponding standard units of metter and
second.

Note also that spacelike intervals are not causally connected but the
space intervals are.

>> POSTULATING that c(t) is a variable rather than a constant makes no
>> difference to the units.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> MATTER. What matters is that speed is defined as
> (distance traveled)/(travel time), and c(t) is not that for anything.

Just see the definition of c(t) that *you sniped*. I reintroduce it

c(t)^2 == c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

for the special case a(t) = 1 it reduces to

c(t)^2 == c^2

Evidently c(t) is a speed. Restoring to the general case does not
change this because everything within {} is adimensional.

c is the speed of light and c(t) is a variable speed of light. In
textbooks and papers the more general case c=c(r,t) is also considered
and often named the coordinate speed of light. I have cited several
textbooks a talk and an Astronomy & astrophysics paper in another
message in this thread.

Signature

http://www.canonicalscience.org/

BLOG:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/publicationzone/canonicalsciencetoday/canonic
alsciencetoday.html

Andreas Most - 17 Feb 2010 12:19 GMT
> The fact is that dt is *exactly the same* dt for FRW metric. This
> is why the same symbol is being used in both expressions
>
>      ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
>
>      ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - a(t)(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

If it is the same coordinates it follows by subtracting the two
expressions:

 0 = (c(t)²-c²) dt² - (1 - a(t))*(dx²+dy²+dz²)

If this has to be true for all coordinate differences it is only
fulfilled for

c(t)² = c²  and   a(t) = 1

Obviously, if you want to have a(t) =/= 1 the two expressions cannot be
equivalent.

> Just see the definition of c(t) that *you sniped*. I reintroduce it
>
> c(t)^2 == c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

You have not defined v(t). Is it:

v(t)² = (dx/dt)² + (dy/dt)² + (dz/dt)² ???

You are certainly aware of the fact that the components of the metric
tensor have to be independent of the coordinate differentials.

Andreas.

--
Replace animals with appropriate symbols
AndreasDogMostCatGoogleMailDogCom
Tom Roberts - 25 Feb 2010 10:52 GMT
> The fact is that dt is *exactly the same* dt for FRW metric. This
> is why the same symbol is being used in both expressions
>      ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
>      ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - a(t)(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

All one has to do is LOOK at your statement to see that your statement is wrong
-- dt is indeed DIFFERENT in those two line elements. And not just because they
describe different manifolds. It is different also because the physical
interpretation of dt is different: in the second, dt is a time interval (because
it is what a clock measures), but in the first dt is NOT a time interval
(because it is NOT what a clock measures).

Words have meanings. Using the phrase "exactly the same" as if it has the
opposite meaning is not very useful. Ditto for treating words like "time" as if
they have variable meanings. As Einstein said, "time is what clocks measure",
and since in the first line element above dt is NOT what clocks measure, dt is
NOT a time interval.

Tom Roberts
Jenny - 17 Feb 2010 17:25 GMT
> >>  Note that dt is NOT a time interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.

> > On the contrary,  dt IS a time interval and c(t)dt IS a spatial
> > interval.

> This is just not true. You seem to be hung up on units, but here they are
> irrelevant.

I'm not hung up on units.

When someone claims that a speed is not a speed and someone else jumps
in to defend them and has to resort to  claiming  that time is not
time in order to do so  then I feel that they both need to be
corrected.

If  "t" represents conformal time, then "dt" must represent an
infinitesimal amount of conformal time. To claim otherwise seems
perverse.

> To reiterate: here we are discussing this line element:

>         ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

>         NOTE: as is usual, I use units with c=1, where c represents the
>         invariant speed of the semi-Riemannian metric. Do not confuse
>         this with c(t).

c as a constant isn't in this equation - just c(t), a variable

We might, arbtrarily, define c(Now) = 1 but to set c= 1 (a constant
for all time)  automatically negates the very POSTULATE being
investigated. It's illogical to do so. You can't PROVE that something
is wrong by ASSUMING that it's wrong.

(With the FW metric, it's customary to set a(now) = 1, but not to set
a = 1 for all time).

> Remember that "time is what clocks measure" [Einstein]. If one used
> clocks to determine the t coordinate, then dt would indeed be a time
> interval. But in that case g_tt = 1. So in the above line element, since
> g_tt != 1, it is QUITE CLEAR that dt is NOT a time interval. c(t)dt is a
> time interval (corresponding to a clock on a trajectory with
> dx=dy=dz=0).

dt IS a time interval as measured by clocks -  BY DEFINITION of the FW
metric.

and c(t)dt (velocity x time) represents a distance.

In particular, for light

ds^2 = 0,

so

c(t)^2 dt^2= (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

choosing the  x-axis as the direction of motion. we get

c(t) = dx/dt

c(t) is the ACTUAL speed of light, BY DEFINITION and it's LOGICALLY
sound - i.e it leads to NO contradictions.

> Note that all this is usually discussed in day 1 of a GR course, and
> rarely mentioned or thought about again. You (and several others around
> here) need to review the basics.

THAT's the precise problem,  it IS discussed in day 1 and hence is
considered to be unquestionable.

How many people, at the end of a GR course (or after 40 years for that
matter)  go back and question the (supposed) FACT that the speed of
light is a constant?

Very few, I suspect.

[You cerainly aren't questioning it, and you're bending over backwards
to defend it (going so far as to resorting to claims that dt in the FW
metric doesn't represent time and cIt) isn't even a speed).]

How many of those get accepted into postgraduate studies?

NONE,  I'm pretty sure.

> > If c(t)dt were a time interval, then dx, dy and dz would also have to
> > be  time intervals. Otherwise equation (3) wouldn't be dimensionally
> > consistent.

> This is GR, not physics 101. Dimensions (units) have NOTHING to do with
> whether a given interval is spatial or temporal,

Right, and when another poster  said that c(t) didn't have dimensions
of velocity because it was dimensionless I pointed out his error. For
some reason, you chose to correct me and not him.

> What distinguishes spatial and temporal intervals is the sign of ds^2.
> With the above line element, if ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time interval, and
> if ds^2 < 0 then ds is a spatial interval.

Well, I've had LOTS to say about that particular topicn  in another
thread - but I'll refrain from further comment here. Suffice to say
that  IMHO it's a GR kindergarten level flaw. I'll certainly never get
into grad school.

> > POSTULATING that c(t) is a variable rather than a constant makes no
> > difference to the units.

> Yes. But as I keep pointing out, the units are IRRELEVANT -- your
> failure to grasp that seems to be part of your confusion.

I KNOW that. I was CORRECTING that other poster who was confused about
what units velocity should have.

Take a look at the second post in this thread, (point one about the
dimensions of velocity) THEN  read my response to it. THEN decide
which of the two of us was wrong and which one of us was confused.

> > AND c(t) is a speed,

> No, c(t) is most definitely NOT a speed. I repeat: units DO NOT MATTER.
> What matters is that speed is defined as (distance traveled)/(travel
> time), and c(t) is not that for anything.

c(t) is DEFINED as the speed of light. You're CORRECT - the UNITS
don't matter.

>         Consider two points on a light pulse's trajectory along the x
>         axis, let dx and dt be the coordinate differences between
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>         so it is also clear that |dx/dt|=|c(t)|. Do the algebra and
>         you'll see that speed = (distance traveled)/(travel time) = 1.

Yes, it's simple algebra.

I see that  |c(t)| = |dx/dt|  =  distance travelled/ travel time  =
speed

This, it seems to me,  is in CONTRADICTION to your claim above that
"speed is defined as (distance  traveled)/(travel time), and c(t) is
not that for anything".

dx/dt only equals 1 if c(t) = 1 (a CONSTANT) but the POSTULATE is that
c(t) VARIES,  so dx/dt = c(t) =/= 1.

> > Are you claiming  that speed at a point in spacetime doesn't count as
> > speed because such a point has no duration?

> Good heavens, no. I'm merely pointing out that c(t) is not a speed
> because it is not (distance traveled)/(travel time) for anything.

You just SHOWED that:

|c(t)| = |dx/dt|  =  distance travelled over travel time = speed

> >> But his c(t) is NOT the speed of light.

> > But he DEFINED it to be. It's up to you to explain why it can't be.

> His "definition" was wrong.

A definition CAN"T be wrong unless it leads to a contradiction or
conflict with empirical evidence.

> While he used a different line element, the
> same discussion above applies and shows that his c(t) is NOT the speed
> of light. With his line element, the speed of light is 1. This is so
> because of the MEANING of "speed", and the structure of GR.

You just SHOWED that

|c(t)| = |dx/dt|  =  distance travelled over travel time .

The POSTULATE that c(t) is a VARIABLE can only be disproven LOGICALLY
or EMPIRICALLY.

To claim that c(t) isn't a speed and then go on to  prove that it is a
speed DOES show logical incosnsistency - but in YOUR position NOT
mine.

> To get a variable speed of light, as I said before, one must either:
>     A) abandon GR
> or
>     B) abandon Maxwell's equations and the notion that light travels
>        along null geodesics

No, you don't. You just have to allow that c(t) is a variable and that
IF SO the supposed expansion of the Universe might be an ILLUSION.

It's NOT  essential to GR that c be constant, it MIGHT be essential to
quantum gravity that c is a variable.

Love,
Jenny
Hendrik van Hees - 17 Feb 2010 19:50 GMT
I've not followed this thread too carefully, but read what I got in my
box to review for the group moderation. I'm also not an expert in ATR,
but I'm a bit used to relativistic many-body theory in the context of
STR, and even in STR you can become pretty confused when not remembering
the simple fact that physical meaning can have only invariant
quantities, i.e., tensors (including scalars, vectors, and higher-rank
tensors or the respective fields).

As far as I remember from some textbook studies about ATR it's the same
there. Only that the tensors have to be even GL(4,R) tensors and not
only SO(1,3) tensors as in STR. Thus, the (local) coordinates q^{mu}
have no physical meaning themselves, but only the invariant length
element

ds^2=g_{mu nu} dq^{mu} dq^{nu}.

>From the tensor components g_{mu nu} one can calculate among other
things the curvature tensor which allows to classify the (local) space-
time geometry at hand.

In the here discussed case of

ds^2=c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

for me it's pretty obvious that we have just a somewhat strange choice
of a coordinate time, t. One can easily remap it to a new time
coordinate t' and keeping the new spatial coordinates, x'=x, y'=y, z'=z:

c0 dt'=c(t) dt

leading (at least locally) to

ds^2 = eta_{mu nu} dx'^{mu} dx'^{nu}

with eta_{mu nu}=diag(c0^2,-1,-1,-1),

where c0 is the usual constant speed of light.

All this formalism means that we have an observer, who's measuring his
coordinate time, t, with a non-uniformly running clock and thus obtain
also a time-varying speed of light when he's measuring it with his
awkward clock. There's nothing to say against this in principle, but one
must not come to the wrong conclusion that the speed of light varies
with any notion of time since, redefining the coordinate time to be t'
in the above given way, one realizes that the speed of light, measured
with this redefined time, becomes the good old constant we all love and
use to derive the metre from the second in the SI units.

>> >> Note that dt is NOT a time interval; c(t)dt is a time interval.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> infinitesimal amount of conformal time. To claim otherwise seems
> perverse.

[...]

[ Mod. Note: Almost 200 quoted lines snipped.  -ik ]
Jenny - 18 Feb 2010 18:34 GMT
On Feb 17, 1:50 pm, Hendrik van Hees <Hendrik.vanH...@physik.uni-
giessen.de> wrote:
...
> As far as I remember from some textbook studies about ATR it's the same
> there. Only that the tensors have to be even GL(4,R) tensors and not
> only SO(1,3) tensors as in STR. Thus, the (local) coordinates q^{mu}
> have no physical meaning themselves, but only the invariant length
> element

> ds^2=g_{mu nu} dq^{mu} dq^{nu}.

But, in this case, t is conformal time. So the spatial elementsdo
represent a(n infinite) set of inertial frames and

(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

does have a physiucal meaning.

...
> In the here discussed case of

> ds^2=c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)
>
> for me it's pretty obvious that we have just a somewhat strange choice
> of a coordinate time, t. One can easily remap it to a new time
> coordinate t' and keeping the new spatial coordinates, x'=x, y'=y, z'=
=z:

Point agreed (more or less) and understood (more or less).

But here in cosmological terms, "dt" represents conformal time (more
or less, it's the time since the Big Bang).

So, yes we can change "dt" and claim that it's time that varies, not
the velocity of light.
But then we're no longer talking about conformal time.

In summary, we have 3 choices.

FWR       ==> space expands
ROCK    ==> the speed of light is variable
YOU       ==> time passage varies.

We can pick any one and, AFAICT,  the mathematics is logically
consistent.

The choice is fundamentally philosophical.

What WAS wrong was to claim that c(t) doesn't have the dimensions of
speed.
...

> All this formalism means that we have an observer, who's measuring his
> coordinate time, t, with a non-uniformly running clock and thus obtain
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> with this redefined time, becomes the good old constant we all love and
> use to derive the metre from the second in the SI units.

But "t" is conformal time and is *presumed*  to be regular.

In your case, t' the time measured by clocks turns out to be a wrong
measure.

That should be no surprise, since the phrase "clocks measure time" was
just a semi-humorous stop gap weasure on the path to relativity.  It
shouldn't have been taken as seriously as it hasbeen.

Love,
Jenny
Tom Roberts - 18 Feb 2010 18:34 GMT
> All this formalism means that we have an observer, who's measuring his
> coordinate time, t, with a non-uniformly running clock and thus obtain
> also a time-varying speed of light when he's measuring it with his
> awkward clock.[...]

I agree with all you said, except I would not speak so loosely as this, because
such loose descriptions are precisely the problem in this thread.

    Experts can usually disentangle such loose words, but neophytes
    can be greatly confused by them.

In GR, a clock measures time, and that means ds in the usual notation. It means
dt ONLY when the factor of dt^2 in the line element is 1. What you call a
"non-uniformly running clock" is not really a clock at all, because it does not
mark-off time (ds); it is merely a mechanism to mark off this particular
coordinate t. And what you call a "time-varying speed of light" is not really a
speed at all, as I have discussed at length.

Using PUNs like this does not help. The words are important, because they are
what we humans use to create understanding.

Tom Roberts
Tom Roberts - 19 Feb 2010 00:23 GMT
> If  "t" represents conformal time, then "dt" must represent an
> infinitesimal amount of conformal time. To claim otherwise seems
> perverse.

You keep jumping around and changing your terminology. This is the first
instance of "conformal time" in this thread. I have made no claims at all about
it, "perverse" or otherwise.

But AS I SAID, in the metric we have been discussing, dt is not an interval of
time, because it is NOT what any clock would measure. This is QUITE CLEAR
because in the line element, the coefficient of dt^2 is not 1.

>> To reiterate: here we are discussing this line element:
>>         ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

> dt IS a time interval as measured by clocks -  BY DEFINITION of the FW
> metric.

But we are not discussing the FW metric, we are discussing the metric quoted above.

When you keep jumping around and changing the subject, it is impossible to keep
up. Please, stick to the above line element; there are difficulties enough with
terminology that we don't need confusions introduced by your introducing other
manifolds in an offhand manner like this.

    [In the usual FW line element, the coefficient of dt^2 is 1 -- it
    differs in an important way from the line element we are discussing.
    In that FW line element, dt _IS_ a time interval, but that has no
    effect on the situation for the line element above that we are
    discussing.]

You need to learn that the meanings of symbols are determined by the equations
that define them. So "dt" can have a different meaning in different line
elements, because its meaning depends on the line element in question.

> and c(t)dt (velocity x time) represents a distance.

<sigh> In the metric above, c(t) is NOT a velocity. Or a speed. And in the usual
way of discussing this, when ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time interval; so c(t)dt is a
time interval, not a distance. But you must look at the line element to know
this. And you must not ascribe any importance at all to the fact that the
coordinate is called "t" -- what matters is that it is the term that is positive.

    [At the risk of confusing you even more, I'll mention that there
    is a different sign convention that reverses the sign of ds^2.
    This has no impact, because the symbols are defined by the
    line element, but it does affect discussions like this.]

> In particular, for light
> ds^2 = 0,

Yes. Finally something we can agree on.

> so
>  c(t)^2 dt^2= (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> choosing the  x-axis as the direction of motion. we get
> c(t) = dx/dt

Yes. This has all been said before. Except it should be |c(t)| = |dx/dt|; the
absolute values have been omitted sometimes, which is not really an issue.

> c(t) is the ACTUAL speed of light, BY DEFINITION and it's LOGICALLY
> sound - i.e it leads to NO contradictions.

NO! This is just plain wrong, because speed is defined as (distance
traveled)/(travel time). Since dt is NOT (travel time), the ratio dx/dt is not
speed.

There are no contradictions in the math. But your WORDS are wrong. And that
implies that your UNDERSTANDING is also wrong.

Just because the symbols look familiar to you (from Physics 101, which is
woefully irrelevant here), that does not mean they have their familiar meanings.
Here they do NOT: dt is NOT a time interval, and c(t) is NOT a speed or velocity.

    And the reason I know this is that I have examined the line
    element and made conclusions based on IT, not the symbols
    and not the units.

>> Note that all this is usually discussed in day 1 of a GR course, and
>> rarely mentioned or thought about again. You (and several others around
>> here) need to review the basics.
>
> THAT's the precise problem,  it IS discussed in day 1 and hence is
> considered to be unquestionable.

No. You need to re-visit day 1. You did not learn its lesson: symbols mean what
they are defined to mean, and not what you wish them to mean or what they
happened to mean in Physics 101. In this case, dt is NOT an interval of time,
because the coefficient of dt^2 in the line element is not 1.

    I repeat: "time is what clocks measure" [Einstein].
    In GR, clocks measure ds (when ds^2 > 0).

> How many people, at the end of a GR course (or after 40 years for that
> matter)  go back and question the (supposed) FACT that the speed of
> light is a constant?

THAT is not the issue here. In the above metric, the LOCAL speed of light is 1.
That is a constant.

It is certainly appropriate to question that assumption of GR. But one must do
so EFFECTIVELY, and nothing in this thread has done so. In particular, GR by
itself cannot be used to question whether or not the speed of light is constant
in the world we inhabit -- that is an EXPERIMENTAL issue. And to explore it, one
needs a model in which the local speed of light can vary, and GR + classical
electrodynamics is not such a model.

> [You cerainly aren't questioning it, and you're bending over backwards
> to defend it (going so far as to resorting to claims that dt in the FW
> metric doesn't represent time and cIt) isn't even a speed).]

You are completely misreading what I am saying.

I am saying that THE MODEL KNOWN AS GR has a constant LOCAL speed of light. And
in the usual units its value is 1. I am saying NOTHING AT ALL about whether or
not that model conforms to the world we inhabit.

I am not "defending" anything, I am EXPLAINING how GR works and what it says.
Nothing more. But before you can expect to do anything effective in this area,
you need to understand GR.

    [And I have made no claims about the FW metric, YOU are the only
    one who brought it up. I have been discussing the metric quoted
    above. Except for what I said about the FW metric above.]

>> What distinguishes spatial and temporal intervals is the sign of ds^2.
>> With the above line element, if ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time interval, and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that  IMHO it's a GR kindergarten level flaw. I'll certainly never get
> into grad school.

You are wrong. This is a "feature", not a "flaw". And there is nothing at all
about GR that is "kindergarten". You'll certainly have trouble in grad school if
you cannot learn to interpret symbols based on their definitions in the
equations, rather than on how they happened to be used previously in your
experience.

>> No, c(t) is most definitely NOT a speed. I repeat: units DO NOT MATTER.
>> What matters is that speed is defined as (distance traveled)/(travel
>> time), and c(t) is not that for anything.
>
> c(t) is DEFINED as the speed of light. You're CORRECT - the UNITS
> don't matter.

No, c(t) is DEFINED in the line element above. Because of the structure of that
line element, c(t) is not a speed. The word "speed" has a definite meaning, and
the meaning of c(t) is definite in the above line element, and the two are NOT
commensurate -- the c(t) in that line element is NOT (distance traveled)/(travel
time) for anything.

> I see that  |c(t)| = |dx/dt|  =  distance travelled/ travel time  =
> speed

NO!. Yes indeed, |c(t)| = |dx/dt| = (distance traveled) / (coordinate difference
in t). I repeat: dt is NOT a time interval, because it is NOT what a clock would
measure.

> dx/dt only equals 1 if c(t) = 1 (a CONSTANT) but the POSTULATE is that
> c(t) VARIES,  so dx/dt = c(t) =/= 1.

Yes. But dx/dt is NOT the (local) speed of light. It is merely the ratio of two
coordinate differences. From the above line element we can see that dx is indeed
(distance traveled), but dt is NOT (travel time). So dx/dt is not a speed.

You REALLY need to learn the difference between a coordinate difference and a
distance. This is covered during the first week of a course on GR.

> You just SHOWED that:
> |c(t)| = |dx/dt|  =  distance travelled over travel time = speed

No. I NEVER "showed" that at all. I have been arguing AGAINST that notion for
several posts. That notion is WRONG, because dt is NOT a time interval. Your
first equality is correct, the second is not.

>>>> But his c(t) is NOT the speed of light.
>>> But he DEFINED it to be. It's up to you to explain why it can't be.
>> His "definition" was wrong.
>
> A definition CAN"T be wrong unless it leads to a contradiction or
> conflict with empirical evidence.

His c(t) was defined in his line element. He then made the incorrect statement
that it was a variable speed of light. His statements were internally
inconsistent about his MODEL, and that means comparison to the world ("empirical
evidence") is irrelevant -- those claims are self-inconsistent independent of
how the world actually behaves.

> You just SHOWED that
> |c(t)| = |dx/dt|  =  distance travelled over travel time .

You keep repeating this falsehood. I NEVER "showed" that at all. I have been
arguing AGAINST that notion for several posts. That notion is WRONG, because dt
is NOT a time interval. Your first equality is correct, the second is not.

> It's NOT  essential to GR that c be constant, it MIGHT be essential to
> quantum gravity that c is a variable.

Hmmm. It _IS_ essential to GR that the local speed of light be constant, and
numerically equal to the value we measure it in the lab. We are a long way from
quantum gravity.... You have essentially no hope of contributing to QG until you
understand our current theories of physics, such as GR. It is clear to me that
QG is VASTLY more subtle than GR, and you are floundering on some basic concepts
of the latter.

Tom Roberts
Jenny - 19 Feb 2010 08:11 GMT
> > If  "t" represents conformal time, then "dt" must represent an
> > infinitesimal amount of conformal time. To claim otherwise seems
> > perverse.

> You keep jumping around and changing your terminology. This is the first
> instance of "conformal time" in this thread. I have made no claims at all about
> it, "perverse" or otherwise.

It's not the first instance. It's been implicit since the beginning.

Eric's original post included the statement :
____________
No, it's not A(t) is the expansion parameter that defines how far
apart
successive spatial hyperslices are from the previous instant in
conformal
time.
____________

I've already refered you to that post, but apparently you still
haven't read it.

If A(t) is what Eric claimed then "t" represents conformal time.

> But AS I SAID, in the metric we have been discussing, dt is not an interval of
> time, because it is NOT what any clock would measure. This is QUITE CLEAR
> because in the line element, the coefficient of dt^2 is not 1.

The equation that I've been discussing is:

ds^2 =  dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2) /c(t)^2

Although you keep writing it as

ds^2 =  c(t)^2  dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
and others keep posting diffeent versions which amounts to the same
thing  (give or take the irrelevant units)

(it's not my fault that other posters keep proffering different
versions of the equation to suit their tastes. I just play with the
hand I'm given)

> >> To reiterate: here we are discussing this line element:
> >>         ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> > dt IS a time interval as measured by clocks -  BY DEFINITION of the FW
> > metric.

> But we are not discussing the FW metric, we are discussing the metric quoted above.

Perhaps you still haven't read the opening post in the thread either.
If you read it, you'll see that Rock writes:
______________
(The FW metric... ... can be written as
 ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2
____________

in which the dt is the same as the original dt in the FW metric.

Perhaps you should  read the thread before commenting on it again.

> When you keep jumping around and changing the subject, it is impossible to keep
> up. Please, stick to the above line element; there are difficulties enough with
> terminology that we don't need confusions introduced by your introducing other
> manifolds in an offhand manner like this.

I haven't "jumped around" I've always been discussing Rock's equation
- in which dt represents conformal time - as agreed even by Eric.
(it's not my fault that other posters keep proffering different
versions of the equation to suit their tastes. I just play with the
hand I'm given)

>         [In the usual FW line element, the coefficient of dt^2 is 1 -- it
>          differs in an important way from the line element we are discussing.
>          In that FW line element, dt _IS_ a time interval, but that has no
>          effect on the situation for the line element above that we are
>          discussing.]

That IS the line element that we are discussing. With the difference
that 1 is replaced by c^2 and c^2 is replaced by c(t)^2. Which is why
I try to avoid using the natural units which are leading you and eric
into confusion.

> You need to learn that the meanings of symbols are determined by the equations
> that define them. So "dt" can have a different meaning in different line
> elements, because its meaning depends on the line element in question.

In this equation, dt IS the time interval since dt represents
conformal time.

> > and c(t)dt (velocity x time) represents a distance.

> <sigh> In the metric above, c(t) is NOT a velocity. Or a speed. And in the usual
> way of discussing this, when ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time interval; so c(t)dt is a
> time interval, not a distance. But you must look at the line element to know
> this. And you must not ascribe any importance at all to the fact that the
> coordinate is called "t" -- what matters is that it is the term that is positive.

In the equation that I'M writing about, c(t) does have units of
velocity as I've shown several times.

In the form of equation you prefer,

ds^2 =  c(t)^2  dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

[ds^2] =  [c(t)^2][dt^2]

[ds] = [L] and [dt] = [T]

so [c(t)] = [LT^-1]

But NO MATTER HOW YOU PARSE THE EQUATIONS c(t) has the dimensions of
velocity and dt has dimensions of time. And c(t)dt has dimensions of
length albeit thay might all be dimensionless in natural units or have
some other dimensions if your choice gets more imaginative. If I
measure time and length as mass, then c(t) would be dimensionless and
so would velocity.

>         [At the risk of confusing you even more, I'll mention that there
>          is a different sign convention that reverses the sign of ds^2.
>          This has no impact, because the symbols are defined by the
>          line element, but it does affect discussions like this.]

I'm not the slightest bit confused.

> > In particular, for light
> > ds^2 = 0,

> Yes. Finally something we can agree on.

> > so
> >  c(t)^2 dt^2= (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> > choosing the  x-axis as the direction of motion. we get
> > c(t) = dx/dt

> Yes. This has all been said before. Except it should be |c(t)| = |dx/dt|; the
> absolute values have been omitted sometimes, which is not really an issue.

> > c(t) is the ACTUAL speed of light, BY DEFINITION and it's LOGICALLY
> > sound - i.e it leads to NO contradictions.

> NO! This is just plain wrong, because speed is defined as (distance
> traveled)/(travel time). Since dt is NOT (travel time), the ratio dx/dt is not
> speed.

But dt IS travel time, since we're using conformal time. And this is
CONFIRMED by the FACT that c(t) [THE SPEED OF LIGHT - BY DEFINITION}
turns out to be  dx/dt.

i.e. we've confirmed that light travelling at c(t) follows a null path
- as it should.

We've SHOWN that thee is no CONTRADICTION here.

You can measure  light as travelling  at some other speed, if you want
to use some fancy clocks which measure dt' = dt/a(t)  but that seems
perverse.

> There are no contradictions in the math. But your WORDS are wrong. And that
> implies that your UNDERSTANDING is also wrong.

I think you didn't read the posts I was responding to in which  dt
represented conformal time.

> Just because the symbols look familiar to you (from Physics 101, which is
> woefully irrelevant here), that does not mean they have their familiar meanings.
> Here they do NOT: dt is NOT a time interval, and c(t) is NOT a speed or velocity.

Read the first two posts in this thread over again (or for the first
time, if you haven't yet read them - as I suspect)

> >> Note that all this is usually discussed in day 1 of a GR course, and
> >> rarely mentioned or thought about again. You (and several others around
> >> here) need to review the basics.

> > THAT's the precise problem,  it IS discussed in day 1 and hence is
> > considered to be unquestionable.

> No. You need to re-visit day 1. You did not learn its lesson: symbols mean what
> they are defined to mean, and not what you wish them to mean or what they
> happened to mean in Physics 101. In this case, dt is NOT an interval of time,
> because the coefficient of dt^2 in the line element is not 1.

I can only keep referring you to the Rock's  original post in  this
thread, where you'll  read:
_________________
the metric can be written simply as
       ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2
________________

or eric's original post
_______________
ds^2 = c^2dt^2 - A(t)^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2) where c is the *actual*
speed
of light, and A(t) is the expansion parameter that defines how far
apart
successive spatial hyperslices are from the previous instant in
conformal
time.
_________________

Note that (give or take the units), they are the same equation with

A(t) = 1/c(t)

(it's not my fault that other posters keep proffering different
versions of the equation to suit their tastes. I just play with the
hand I'm given)

>         I repeat: "time is what clocks measure" [Einstein].
>         In GR, clocks measure ds (when ds^2 > 0).

And in this cosmological model, inertial clocks will measure conformal
time - which is dt.

> > How many people, at the end of a GR course (or after 40 years for that
> > matter)  go back and question the (supposed) FACT that the speed of
> > light is a constant?

> THAT is not the issue here. In the above metric, the LOCAL speed of light is 1.
> That is a constant.

That is precisely the issue here.Haven't you noticed references to the
supposed FACT that c(t) can't be a variable?

You wrote:
_______________________
using a pre-1983 definition of the meter, the experimenter would
measure the flight time of light over a measured distance, and divide
to compute
the speed. Knowing about the effects of curvature, the limit to zero
distance
would be taken, and in GR this procedure is guaranteed to obtain the
standard
value c.
____________________

You're treating AS A FACT that experimenters will ALWAYS get the
standard value c, for ALL TIME and ALL SPACE.

You, apparently are one of the  many people, at the end of a GR course
(or after 40 years for that matter)  DIDN''T go back and question the
(supposed) FACT that the speed of light is a constant.

If c(t)  were smaller 10 billion years ago (time t1)  then a photon
produced then with energy pc(t1) would have less energy than a photon
produced in a similar fashion today with energy pc(t2). So we'd
observe a red shift.

AFAICT size changing  universes and varying light speed universe might
be indistinguishable.

> It is certainly appropriate to question that assumption of GR. But one must do
> so EFFECTIVELY, and nothing in this thread has done so. In particular, GR by
> itself cannot be used to question whether or not the speed of light is constant
> in the world we inhabit -- that is an EXPERIMENTAL issue. And to explore it, one
> needs a model in which the local speed of light can vary, and GR + classical
> electrodynamics is not such a model.

And If you actually read what I write, you'll see that I've written
EXACTLY that.

To be shown that the POSTULATE is wrong, we must show that it is
inconsistent LOGICALLY OR we must show that it is empirically
falsified.

 
> > Well, I've had LOTS to say about that particular topic  in another
> > thread - but I'll refrain from further comment here. Suffice to say
> > that  IMHO it's a GR kindergarten level flaw. I'll certainly never get
> > into grad school.

> You are wrong. This is a "feature", not a "flaw". And there is nothing at all
> about GR that is "kindergarten". You'll certainly have trouble in grad school if
> you cannot learn to interpret symbols based on their definitions in the
> equations, rather than on how they happened to be used previously in your
> experience.

As I say, I'll refrain from comment.

> > A definition CAN"T be wrong unless it leads to a contradiction or
> > conflict with empirical evidence.

> His c(t) was defined in his line element. He then made the incorrect statement
> that it was a variable speed of light. His statements were internally
> inconsistent about his MODEL, and that means comparison to the world ("empirical
> evidence") is irrelevant -- those claims are self-inconsistent independent of
> how the world actually behaves.

Here's his metric:
_______________

       ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2
or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
= c(t).
_______________

As even eric agrees, it's simply the a(t) factor of the FW metric
replaced by a varying lightspeed factor. It CAN't be any more
inconsistent than the FW metric.

It has the SAME logical structure.

eric's claim (with which I strongly disagree) was that c(t) didn't
have the dimension of velocity.

That's the point I'm making.

So I'm still waiting for a VALID LOGICAL reason that the metric CAN'T
be right.

Love,
Jenny
eric gisse - 25 Feb 2010 10:52 GMT
[ Mod. note: This part of the discussion is starting to go in circles.
 Everyone had a chance to state their position, merely restating
 it in followups is not encouraged.  -ik ]

[...]

>> <sigh> In the metric above, c(t) is NOT a velocity. Or a speed. And in
>> the usual way of discussing this, when ds^2 > 0 then ds is a time
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> ds^2 =  c(t)^2  dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

Change variables to t' = int(c(t) dt), and you have ds^2 = dt'^2 - (dx^2 +
dy^2 + dz^2).

There's a moderate disconnect between Rock's rewrite into the form you
cited, and the form he originally wrote. The former has all the components
of the Riemann curvature tensor equal to zero, while the latter has
components that aren't all equal to zero.

They aren't the same thing.

[...]

> But dt IS travel time, since we're using conformal time. And this is
> CONFIRMED by the FACT that c(t) [THE SPEED OF LIGHT - BY DEFINITION}
> turns out to be  dx/dt.

Coordinate speed of light.

> i.e. we've confirmed that light travelling at c(t) follows a null path
> - as it should.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to use some fancy clocks which measure dt' = dt/a(t)  but that seems
> perverse.

t' corresponds to time measured by an observer's clock traveling along an
inertial path. t corresponds to t' in some goofy coordinate system in which
proper time measured by an observer does not take the expected linear form.

The coordinates are poorly chosen.

[...]

>> His c(t) was defined in his line element. He then made the incorrect
>> statement that it was a variable speed of light. His statements were
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> replaced by a varying lightspeed factor. It CAN't be any more
> inconsistent than the FW metric.

Er, no. It is nothing more than calling the expansion factor a different
name. It doesn't change the physics. I've tried to stress this, but you are
the one who is attached to the notion that the name dictates the physics.

>  It has the SAME logical structure.
>
> eric's claim (with which I strongly disagree) was that c(t) didn't
> have the dimension of velocity.

I also claimed it wasn't the speed of light.

> That's the point I'm making.
>
> So I'm still waiting for a VALID LOGICAL reason that the metric CAN'T
> be right.

Let's see how this plays out.

> Love,
> Jenny
Juan R. - 19 Feb 2010 10:00 GMT
Tom Roberts wrote on Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:23:17 +0000:

>> If  "t" represents conformal time, then "dt" must represent an
>> infinitesimal amount of conformal time. To claim otherwise seems
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> This is QUITE CLEAR because in the line element, the coefficient of
> dt^2 is not 1.

This is untrue, in fact coefficients different from the unity are
related to gravitational time dilation that affects to clocks.
This is all well-discussed in textbooks on GR, I hace cited some
but you insist on deleting the references.

>>> To reiterate: here we are discussing this line element:
>>>         ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> But we are not discussing the FW metric, we are discussing the metric
> quoted above.

But as was said to you, the above is a mere rewrite of the FW metric.

(...)

>    [In the usual FW line element, the coefficient of dt^2 is 1 -- it
>    differs in an important way from the line element we are
>    discussing. In that FW line element, dt _IS_ a time interval, but
>    that has no effect on the situation for the line element above
>    that we are discussing.]

But as was said to you, the dt in the above metric is exactly the same
that in the FRW metric. Just look to the derivation given.

> You need to learn that the meanings of symbols are determined by the
> equations that define them. So "dt" can have a different meaning in
> different line elements, because its meaning depends on the line
> element in question.

No. If it was different, we would use a different symbol, for instance
in this thread we use the symbol dt' for denoting a different element
of time.

"dt" in the above metric is exactly the same than in the FRW metric.
This was pointed to you many times.

The rest of your message is just a repetition of the same mistakes
that were already corrected before by Jenny, me, and others.

(...)

Signature

http://www.canonicalscience.org/

BLOG:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/publicationzone/canonicalsciencetoday/canonic
alsciencetoday.html

Tom Roberts - 21 Feb 2010 18:17 GMT
================ Moderator's note ======================================

I let this through due to the promise that this is the last post about this
same thing in this thread. It is clear that coordinates in GTR have the meaning
of coordinates and nothing else. That's what it all boils down to. I recommend
everybody to read the very easily understandable chapter in Landau-Lifshtz's
volume II of their Lectures on Theoretical Physics (I've only the German translation
at hand, so I guess it doesn't make sense to scan it in for you). It's a nice
chapter on the geometry of space and time for an observer as defined by local
coordinates. This should explain what Tom Roberts (and others!) want to say
in this discussion in a very clear and geometrical way!

HvH.
=========================================================================

This is almost certainly my last post in this thread. The confusion has devolved
to the point that way too much effort is required to respond to it all. The line
elements [*] and [**] are defined (again) below: It seems that much of the
confusion in this thread has been due to people referring to [**] as "the above
metric" or "this metric" when only [*] appeared in the post to which they were
responding or in their response. Such sloppiness is always problematical. In
person it is easily handled, but in newsgroups it is a big hassle -- PLEASE be
more careful!

Steve Carlip said most of the things I have been saying, but much more succinctly.

> Tom Roberts wrote on Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:23:17 +0000:
>> But AS I SAID, in the metric [*] we have been discussing, dt is not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This is untrue, in fact coefficients different from the unity are
> related to gravitational time dilation that affects to clocks.

Sure (except the last 4 words). But for such coordinates, dt is NOT what a clock
measures, and thus cannot be said to represent time.

    For instance, it is well known that in Schwarzschild
    coordinates, the coordinate t corresponds to a clock at
    spatial infinity, and at other locations it corresponds
    to repeaters paced by EM signals direct from that distant
    clock. Note that at spatial infinity, the coefficient of
    dt^2 is 1, and at other places it is not -- those repeaters
    are not clocks, which is easily seen by placing a clock
    next to a repeater and comparing their time intervals (such
    a clock, of course, ticks off ds, not the repeater's dt).

I repeat: "time is what a clock measures" [Einstein].

And "gravitational time dilation" does not really "affect" clocks, just like
"time dilation" in SR does not affect THE CLOCK. Both types of dilation affect
how one PROJECTS an interval of time marked by the clock onto coordinates other
than its locally-inertial rest frame.

>>>>         ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)      [*]
>> [...]
> the above is a mere rewrite of the FW metric.

This is just plain wrong. That line element [*] is Minkowski spacetime using a
nonstandard coordinate t.

([*] is the only metric which appeared in either his or my post.)

> the dt in the above metric is exactly the same
> that in the FRW metric.

This, too, is wrong. dt in the above metric [*] is NOT the same as dt in the
usual FRW metrics, because in the latter the coefficient of dt^2 is 1.

But there is another line element in this thread:

    ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2        [**]

This line element [**] is indeed a rewrite of the class of FRW metrics with flat
spatial slices. Yes, in this metric dt corresponds to time (what a clock measures).

>> You need to learn that the meanings of symbols are determined by the
>> equations that define them. So "dt" can have a different meaning in
>> different line elements, because its meaning depends on the line
>> element in question.
>
> No. If it was different, we would use a different symbol, [...]

Not really. For instance, in this thread the symbol dt has sometimes represented
a time interval, and sometimes not. Yes, the multiple meanings of a single
symbols have caused much confusion. But throughout the literature, in line
elements of GR with 3 spacelike coordinates and one timelike coordinate, the
latter is nearly always denoted by the symbol t, regardless of whether it is
truly time or not (i.e. merely timelike).

    I repeat: the meanings of symbols are determined by the
    equations that define them. This is so basic I am astounded
    that you take issue with it.

Tom Roberts
eric gisse - 16 Feb 2010 11:09 GMT
> Tom Roberts wrote on Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:32:25 +0100:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>         c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

Could you show a reference in which this rewrite is actually performed?
Jenny - 17 Feb 2010 09:27 GMT
.
> > .... Another rewrite is

> >  ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  [3]

> > where c(t) is a variable ligth speed given by

> >         c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

> Could you show a reference in which this rewrite is actually performed?

A mere 150 years ago,  if someone replaced Newton's equations  with
their relativistic equivalents, a similar question might well have
been asked.

Does it even matter if something was ever done before?

Juan claims that it CAN be done.

If it CAN"T be done then he's wrong.

If you think that it CAN'T be done then perhaps you could explain your
reasoning.

If it CAN be done, then it CAN (and SHOULD?) be considered.

Sometimes people have NEW thoughts that don't come out of text books.

That's one reason why we don't much use textbooks from 1960 and we
examine newer papers rather than older ones.

People have been thinking.

Sometimes those NEW thoughts turn out be useful - although CONDEMNED
at first.

Sometimes rewriting an equation leads to new insight.

Love,
Jenny
eric gisse - 17 Feb 2010 23:47 GMT
> .
>> > .... Another rewrite is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> If it CAN"T be done then he's wrong.

He claimed it was a "rather usual" rewrite.

I wanted to see a reference that used that rewrite. I'm not yet arguing that
it is wrong, but I am rather curious to know what a(t) and v(t) are supposed
to be.

I ask about a(t) because it has been shown that I can't even use the basic
definitions used in the original post without being argued with, so I have
absolutely no reason to think a(t) here is the same a(t) in the OP.

[...]
eric gisse - 17 Feb 2010 08:49 GMT
> Tom Roberts wrote on Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:32:25 +0100:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>         c^2 {1 + (1 - a(t)^2) (v(t)/c)^2}

Secondary thought:

Define dt' = c(t) dt / dt', and you once again have Minkowski space. That is
to say, you always had Minkowski space - it was just in a goofy coordinate
system.

This ties into my less important but still relevant point of that changing
the labels of coordinates does not change the physics.
Jenny - 15 Feb 2010 23:09 GMT
> > per Rock Brentwood's equation in his opening post:
> > ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2                          (1)

> In this equation, c(t) is the COORDINATE speed of light (and s has the rather
> unusual units of seconds). By omitting that adjective, all participants in this
> thread have become confused and are talking past each other, as each says "speed
> of light" but means something different by that phrase.

There  is nothing to be confused about, it's a VERY simple equation.

I see nothing WRONG (unusual is not wrong) in measuring ds in terms of
seconds. It's done all the time in measuring path lengths - which are
taken as measures of proper TIMES.

I also would prefer your version, but for  reasonsVERY different from
mere matters of convention.

It's clear that  the dimension of c(t) in EITHER version of the
equation are the same as c. ( i.e LT^-1  in standard units,
dimensionless in natural units).

My first post in this thread should have made that point ultra clear.

> As is well known, GR is completely independent of coordinates, and people can
> all too easily become confused when they attempt to ascribe physical properties
> to coordinate-dependent quantities -- they can be discussing properties of the
> coordinates rather than any physical properties of anything. That is the case in
> this thread.

> That COORDINATE speed of light is not what any sensible experimenter would
> measure: using a pre-1983 definition of the meter, the experimenter would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> value c. In particular it does NOT obtain c(t) of the above equation (assuming
> the above equation does indeed give the metric).

As I pointed out, in spacetime a varying speed of light should take
the form of c(x,y,z,t) rather than c(t). Note that I am talking about
a varying speed of light,  not "c" the "constant".

To match observation, if  c(x,y,z,t) for a given beam of light were to
take the form of a wavefunction then its RMS VALUE would  have to be
"c" (the constant) - resulting ib the constant "c" being a measure of
light speed over "macroscopic" distances.

I  think of  velocity [c(x,y,z,t)] as being represented by rotating
arrows and then I think about Richard Feynman (who died 22 years ago
today).

> It's not clear to me why Rock Brentwood wrote it that way, rather than in the
> standard FRW form with zero spatial curvature (which is a trivial algebraic
> manipulation from the above, and uses standard units):

>         ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - a(t)^2 (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

His form might better have been written as:

 ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 -  (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

and his intentions might have been clearer. As for why:

Firstly, he was postulating that c was variable.

Secondly, by rewriting the equation he was subsuming  a(t)  into c(t)
since it would no longer be necessary -  just an historical artefact,
like phlogiston or ether,  outliving its usefulness.

> In this metric, a(t) is a time-dependent spatial expansion, but there's no
> expectation or implication that is is related to "speed of light". I think the
> confusion in this thread is directly related to his non-standard notation. Plus
> the inadvertent and unacknowledged PUNs as I said above.

True , there's no implication or expectation in the original equation
that a(t) is related to the speed of light.

For a couple of centuries, there was no expectation or implication in
the equations of classical mechanics that "c" was a maximum velocity -
until someone made some postulates. Suddenly the ether was no longer
necessary.

Rock was making a POSTULATE. He POSTULATED  that the speed of light
is a variable and subsumed a(t) into c(t).  Suddenly a(t) is no longer
necessary.

To get back to  the main point at issue,  about which there can be NO
confusion,  c(t)  DOES have dimensions of velocity whether we use
conventional units OR natural units.

Love,
Jenny
Tom Roberts - 16 Feb 2010 08:06 GMT
>>> per Rock Brentwood's equation in his opening post:
>>> ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2                          (1)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> There  is nothing to be confused about, it's a VERY simple equation.

It's not the equation that is the problem, it is your WORDS. And those of others
in this thread. And the resulting confusion.

> I see nothing WRONG (unusual is not wrong) in measuring ds in terms of
> seconds. It's done all the time in measuring path lengths - which are
> taken as measures of proper TIMES.

Sure. I was not taking issue with "unusual", I was taking issue with the use of
the word "speed" being applied to a quantity that is not a speed.

>  As I pointed out, in spacetime a varying speed of light should take
> the form of c(x,y,z,t) rather than c(t). Note that I am talking about
> a varying speed of light,  not "c" the "constant".

I repeat: that c(t), or your c(x,y,z,t), is NOT THE SPEED OF LIGHT! It is the
COORDINATE speed of light, which is something quite different.

The underlying problem is the PUN on "speed" that has become all too
commonplace. The only defense is to be careful to distinguish between speed and
"coordinate speed": The speed of something is defined as (distance
traveled)/(travel time). The coordinate speed of something is (spatial
coordinate difference)/(time coordinate difference), where the differences are
for two points on its trajectory. As those coordinate differences are in general
neither distance traveled nor travel time, these two ratios can be VERY
different. So the second word in the phrase "coordinate speed" is a PUN, but
this usage is rooted in history (for Cartesian coordinates in Euclidean space
they are of course the same).

>  Rock was making a POSTULATE. He POSTULATED  that the speed of light
> is a variable and subsumed a(t) into c(t).

But his c(t) is NOT the speed of light. See above, and my other posts in this
thread.

To make such a postulate, one must sever the connection between the invariant
speed of the metric and the speed of light. Then one starts dealing with
theories of electrodynamics with massive quanta, or other exotica.

While I am not Rock, and have not examined his post in detail, I think that to
do what he has in mind the metric he gave is insufficient. Certainly it does not
give a "variable speed of light". But I suspect he really wants to consider what
happens if the invariant speed of the semi-Riemannian metric varies with time.
And to do that I'm pretty sure he must go outside semi-Riemannian geometry,
because in semi-Riemannian geometry such variations merely correspond to varying
units, and can always be eliminated by changing units appropriately.

Tom Roberts
Jenny - 16 Feb 2010 22:14 GMT
> > There  is nothing to be confused about, it's a VERY simple equation.

> It's not the equation that is the problem, it is your WORDS. And those of others
> in this thread. And the resulting confusion.

c(t) has dimensions of velocity, it's not dimensionless as eric had
claimed.

> > I see nothing WRONG (unusual is not wrong) in measuring ds in terms of
> > seconds. It's done all the time in measuring path lengths - which are
> > taken as measures of proper TIMES.

> Sure. I was not taking issue with "unusual", I was taking issue with the use of
> the word "speed" being applied to a quantity that is not a speed.

What you wrote was "(and s has the rather unusual units of seconds)".
That is the  comment to which I was responding.

> >  As I pointed out, in spacetime a varying speed of light should take
> > the form of c(x,y,z,t) rather than c(t). Note that I am talking about
> > a varying speed of light,  not "c" the "constant".

> I repeat: that c(t), or your c(x,y,z,t), is NOT THE SPEED OF LIGHT! It is the
> COORDINATE speed of light, which is something quite different.

I just explained that  " I am talking about a varying speed of light,
not "c" the "constant"".

You clipped out my clarification:
_____________________________
To match observation, if  c(x,y,z,t) for a given beam of light were
to
take the form of a wavefunction then its RMS VALUE would  have to be
"c" (the constant) - resulting in the constant "c" being a measure of
light speed over "macroscopic" distances.
_____________________________

YOUR "c" is the rms of MY "c".

Perhaps that's why GR fails at the quantum level - this variable speed
ecomes more apparent.

> >  Rock was making a POSTULATE. He POSTULATED  that the speed of light
> > is a variable and he subsumed a(t) into c(t).

> But his c(t) is NOT the speed of light. See above, and my other posts in this
> thread.

But he DEFINED it to be. It's up to you to explain why it can't be.

Either on  LOGICAL grounds, e.g. that it leads to a contradiction.

Or on empirical grounds, e.g. that it is falsified by experiment.

(my contention is that EVERY relevant quantum experiment ever made
confirms it)

> To make such a postulate, one must sever the connection between the invariant
> speed of the metric and the speed of light. Then one starts dealing with
> theories of electrodynamics with massive quanta, or other exotica.

The whole POINT of the POSTULATE is that the "speed of the metric" is
NOT invariant.

Conventionally we have "c^2" (the constant and a(t)^2 (the variable).
Now we have c(t)^2 set to be c^2/a(t)^2.

So we have a c(t) which is not invariant.

MATHEMATICALLY , the equation is the same. CONCEPTUALLY it is
different.

CONCEPTUALLY, we have a key to a better understanding of the nature of
light. It's wave aspects are tied into its velocity at any given
event.

> While I am not Rock, and have not examined his post in detail, I think that to
> do what he has in mind the metric he gave is insufficient. Certainly it does not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> because in semi-Riemannian geometry such variations merely correspond to varying
> units, and can always be eliminated by changing units appropriately.

You have not examined his post,  perhaps you should.

It's quite common  for people to criticize things that they haven't
examined. But it's not something to be commended.

Perhaps you can at least agree with the point that I was actually
making - c(t) in Rock's equation has the dimensions of velocity, in
contrast to another poster's claim that it does not.

Love,.
Jenny
Andreas Most - 17 Feb 2010 09:27 GMT
>> >  As I pointed out, in spacetime a varying speed of light should take
>> > the form of c(x,y,z,t) rather than c(t). Note that I am talking about
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> YOUR "c" is the rms of MY "c".

It should be kept in mind that only ds has a physical meaning but not
the coordinates x,y,z and t. They are just numbers to identify events in
spacetime. It is ds that tells us something about distances and time
intervals.

BTW, a simple coordinate transformation for

ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

with dt' = c(t) dt yields the flat Minkowski metric

ds² = dt'² - dx² - dy² - dz²

That means, the c(t) in the above equation has no physical meaning at
all. It can be absorbed into the definition of the coordinates.

Andreas.

--
Replace animals with appropriate symbols
AndreasDogMostCatGoogleMailDogCom
Jenny - 17 Feb 2010 19:50 GMT
> > I just explained that  " I am talking about a varying speed of light,
> > not "c" the "constant"".

> > You clipped out my clarification:
> > _____________________________
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > light speed over "macroscopic" distances.
> > _____________________________

> > YOUR "c" is the rms of MY "c".

> It should be kept in mind that only ds has a physical meaning but not
> the coordinates x,y,z and t. They are just numbers to identify events in
> spacetime. It is ds that tells us something about distances and time
> intervals.

It should also be kept in mind that in this metric, "t" is not some
random time,  it is conformal time.

That's why we're talking about  c(t) and not c(x,y,z,t)

So  "t"  DOES have a fixed  physical meaning although x, y and z are
not fixed.

Nevertheless  (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)  IS  fixed and DOES have meaning for
the given conformal "t".  It represents the euclidean distance in
space in a particular set of inertial frames - those in which time is
conformal.

> BTW, a simple coordinate transformation for

>  ds^2 = c(t)^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

> with dt' = c(t) dt yields the flat Minkowski metric

>  ds² = dt'² - dx² - dy² - dz²

So it seems.

But will your clocks measure dt'?

If your clocks still measure dt,  then if you really want to preserve
the Minkowski metric you'll have to postulate that (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2) is
CHANGING since, as you rightly say, ds is fixed.

It seems to me that we have choices

- treat the speed of light as a constant and have the size of the
Universe change
- have the size of the Universe change and treat the speed of light as
a constant
OR
- some combination of those two.

> That means, the c(t) in the above equation has no physical meaning at
> all. It can be absorbed into the definition of the coordinates.

It has the physical meaning that the speed of light varies with time.
That's what the POSTULATE actually means. It would have the physical
result that, if we trust our clocks, the size of the Universe would
appear to be changing.

Since this prediction (that the size of the Universe woiuld appear to
be changing.) is  supported by the empirical evidence,  I see no
LOGICAL OR EMPIRICAL reason to deny its validity.

Love,
Jenny
Phillip Helbig - 18 Feb 2010 18:34 GMT
Andreas Most wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:27:29 +0000:

>>> >  As I pointed out, in spacetime a varying speed of light should
>>> >  take
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> the coordinates x,y,z and t. They are just numbers to identify events
> in spacetime.

This is plain wrong. x,y,z and t are physical quantities and are
determined by the product of a number *and a unit*. E.g. x = 5 m;
t = 12 s.

Those issues are discussed in basic textbooks of physics. See also
the next introduction to physical quantities

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/introduction.html

Textbooks also explain that x,y,z and t are related to measurements.
E.g. t is obtained from reading a clock.

> It is ds that tells us something about distances and time
> intervals.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That means, the c(t) in the above equation has no physical meaning at
> all. It can be absorbed into the definition of the coordinates.

This is also wrong. For avoid further confusion consider the case when
c(t) = c, then we have

ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

ds^2 = dt'^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2

with dt' = c dt

The physical meaning of c is also given in textbooks. It is the speed
of light and it is one of the "fundamental physical constants"

http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?c

--
http://www.canonicalscience.org/

BLOG:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/publicationzone/canonicalsciencetoday/canonic
alsciencetoday.html

carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu - 19 Feb 2010 22:08 GMT
(is this the right attribution?)

> Andreas Most wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:27:29 +0000:

[...]
> > It should be kept in mind that only ds has a physical meaning but not
> > the coordinates x,y,z and t. They are just numbers to identify events
> > in spacetime.

> This is plain wrong. x,y,z and t are physical quantities and are
> determined by the product of a number *and a unit*. E.g. x = 5 m;
> t = 12 s.

Not in general relativity.  The fundamental symmetry of general
relativity, general covariance, implies that coordinates are "gauge"
quantities, and are not physically observable.

[...]
> > BTW, a simple coordinate transformation for
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > That means, the c(t) in the above equation has no physical meaning at
> > all. It can be absorbed into the definition of the coordinates.

> This is also wrong. For avoid further confusion consider the case when
> c(t) = c, then we have

> ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

> ds^2 = dt'^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2

> with dt' = c dt

Right.  The point is that even if the parameter c(t) is a function of t,
it can *still* be absorbed into the coordinates.  Simply sticking in a
time-dependent c(t) is just a coordinate choice; it is unmeasurable,
and has no physical meaning.

Note that this is *not* what Rock Brentwood did.  His metric was

ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)/c(t)^2                                 [**]

which is not the same.  (This is easy to check: the curvature tensor
of the metric [*] is zero, while the curvature tensor of [**] is not.)

The problem here is one of interpretation.  The quantity c(t) in [**]
is the "speed of light" as measured by a particular set of noninertial
observers.  Other noninertial observers will measure different speeds.
In particular, this c(t) is not what we would measure in the laboratory
-- unless our laboratory is big enough that it's participating fully
in the Hubble expansion, i.e., that it stretches at least beyond the
Virgo Cluster.  

The conventional definition of the "speed of light" is "the speed of
light as measured locally by an inertial observer."  That's not c(t).
To obtain it from the metric [**], or any other metric, you have to
pick inertial (Riemann normal) coordinates around the point at which
the measurement is made.  You will then obtain the standard constant
answer of c (or 1 in "natural units").  

That's the reason I brought up the Milne Universe, which is just flat
Minkowski space in a particular set of polar-like coordinates.  The
Milne metric is of the form [**], but at any fixed point you can give
c(t) any value you like by choosing the origin for your coordinates.

Steve Carlip
Juan R. - 25 Feb 2010 19:14 GMT
=========== Moderator's note ==============================================

Let me just add two more references. First of all, GR is a gauge theory. This
is nicely explained in

P. Ramond, Field Theory: A Modern Primer , 2nd edition, Addison-Wesley , 1989

Second, it is indeed true that the purely geometrical point of view which goes
back to Einstein's formulation and is thus the most widely taught even 85 years
after its discovery. However, the more modern point of view that gravity is,
at least on the classical level, a force as the other fundamental forces,
may help to understand the theory better. This point of view is nicely
exposed in

R.P. Feynman, Lectures on Gravitation.

===========================================================================

carlip-nospam wrote on Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:08:04 +0000:

> Phillip Helbig <helbig@localhost.localdomain> wrote: (is this the
> right attribution?)

It isn't as explained in this thread.

>> Andreas Most wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:27:29 +0000:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> relativity, general covariance, implies that coordinates are "gauge"
> quantities, and are not physically observable.

Apart from missing my whole point you are being rather imprecise Steve.

(i)
I do not confound coordinates (geometry) with frames (physics).
In physics, x,y,z, and t are physical quantities.

In "General covariance and the foundations of general relativity: eight
decades of dispute", 1993: Rep. Prog. Phys. 56, 791-858. Norton, J. D.

The author draws the distinction between coordinates and frames in the
section "6.3 Coordinate systems versus frames of reference" and adds:

 "traditional developments of special and general relativity it has
  been customary not to distinguish between two quite distinct ideas."

(ii)
I also recommend a look to recent Ellis and Matravers work

General Covariance in General Relativity? General Relativity and
Gravitation 1995: 27(7), 777-788. Ellis, G. F. R.; Matravers, D. R.

where again the physical approach to general relativity is not confused
with a purely geometrical approach:

 "The mathematical approach to General Relativity insists that all
  coordinate systems are equal. However physicists and astrophysicists
  in fact almost always use preferred coordinate systems not merely to
  simplify the calculations but also to help define quantities of
  physical interest. This suggests we should reconsider and perhaps
  refine the dogma of General Covariance."

I am talking about physics.

> [...]
>> > BTW, a simple coordinate transformation for
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> sticking in a time-dependent c(t) is just a coordinate choice; it is
> unmeasurable, and has no physical meaning.

By simplicity consider Minkowski spacetime

  ds^2 = c^2 dT^2 - (dX^2 + dY^2 + dZ^2)

Also you can absorb c into the coordinates setting dT' = c dT

  ds^2 = (dT')^2 - (dX^2 + dY^2 + dZ^2)

but it would be very misguided to claim that c (the speed of light)
"is just a coordinate choice; is unmeasurable, and has no physical
meaning".

(...)

Signature

http://www.canonicalscience.org/

BLOG:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/publications/canonicalsciencetoday/canonicalscie
ncetoday.html

Oh No - 27 Feb 2010 01:05 GMT
>=========== Moderator's note ==========================================
>====
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>R.P. Feynman, Lectures on Gravitation.

One should be very wary of arguments based on "the modern view". If the
unitiated were to read s.p.relativity, che might be forgiven for
thinking that the modern view is that special relativity is wrong. To
ascertain the correct view one should not look to authority, not even
such a respected authority as Feynman (particularly bearing in mind that
the areas of research in which Feynman made his name did not include
gravity). Instead one should look at the foundations of the subject, and
to the deep insights which caused Gauss to propose non-Euclidean
geometry, Riemann to develop it and Einstein to utilise it.

By treating gravity as a force field one does not dispense with
geometry. One merely replaces a simple theory with fewer fundamental
tenets with by a more complicated one with more postulates, which still
requires geometry as a background but a more constrained one, which
lacks empirical justification for the constraint, and which requires an
additional physical field to make it work, and which very probably does
not work on the large scale.

Regards

Signature

Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.rqgravity.net

Tom Roberts - 28 Feb 2010 18:10 GMT
> By simplicity consider Minkowski spacetime
>    ds^2 = c^2 dT^2 - (dX^2 + dY^2 + dZ^2)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "is just a coordinate choice; is unmeasurable, and has no physical
> meaning".

But c IS NOT the speed of light here, and c being a coordinate choice is not
"misguided" at all, IT IS INHERENT. Just LOOK at what you wrote -- in the second
coordinates c is implicitly 1, and you omitted writing it (as is usual for
constants with the value 1) -- that is DIFFERENT from its value in the first
coordinates. In this context, c is merely a units conversion factor, which is
just another way of saying it is the invariant local COORDINATE speed of the
Lorentz transform (in this particular manifold, of course, there is a
globally-invariant speed [@]).

    [@] I am not being careless here; coordinate speed is just that,
    a ratio of spatial to temporal coordinate differences; speed is
    (travel distance)/(travel time).

If you had been more precise in your terminology, and avoided a PUN on the
meaning of "c", you would know this -- there is no light in the manifold with
metric you described. If you had tried to figure out a way to measure the value
of c, using JUST the stated theoretical context, you would have found that its
value depends on your choice of units and coordinates, and thus its value does
not actually represent any physical property or phenomenon. The fact that there
is a globally-invariant speed is a geometric property of the manifold with
metric; there is no specific value associated with this fact, however. Its value
is determined by arbitrary human choices, not by anything physical or geometrical.

    [In the Euclidean plane containing two lines intersecting at
    right angles, there is a line that bisects them at 45 degrees.
    Its slope, however, is completely undetermined, and takes its
    value from whatever coordinates you happen to assign to the
    original lines. The existence of the line is a geometrical fact;
    the value of its slope is not.]

When you add a theory of electrodynamics to the context, such as classical
electrodynamics, there is no _a_priori_ reason that the speed of light should be
equal to the locally invariant speed of the Lorentz transform. But experiments
have shown that these two values are equal to high accuracy, so we physicists
always make them equal, to the point of using the same symbol to represent them
both. Don't let yourself be confused by this PUN. Making them equal is also
reasonable from a theoretical standpoint: it makes the Poincaré group that is
the isometry group of the manifold (with metric) be the same as the Poincaré
group that is a subgroup of the invariance group of Maxwell's equations [#].
Only after doing this does the value of c represent a physical quantity, and
become measurable as the speed of light.

    [#] Please note the distinction between being "the same" and
    a group isomorphism.

Bottom line: this is related to the context one uses. It is not "misguided" to
use a context different from the one you personally happen to choose. But I
think it is inappropriate of you to implicitly use a context DIFFERENT from the
one you stated -- you said "Minkowski spacetime" not "Minkowski spacetime plus
classical electrodynamics with an identification of the values of c between
them". In most discussions of physics, it's OK to use the latter context without
explicitly mentioning it, and we do it all the time; but in THIS discussion that
is not appropriate, as the difference is germane to the discussion.

IMHO sloppiness in terminology and context is the cause of more confusions and
errors than anything else in theoretical physics. This example is minor compared
to the difficulties posed by the search for a theory of quantum gravity. Honing
your analytical skills so this example becomes second nature to you will
probably be ESSENTIAL to that search.

Tom Roberts
Juan R. - 18 Feb 2010 18:42 GMT
Andreas Most wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:27:29 +0000:

>>> >  As I pointed out, in spacetime a varying speed of light should
>>> >  take
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> the coordinates x,y,z and t. They are just numbers to identify events
> in spacetime.

This is plain wrong. x,y,z and t are physical quantities and are
determined by the product of a number *and a unit*. E.g. x = 5 m;
t = 12 s.

Those issues are discussed in basic textbooks of physics. See also
the next introduction to physical quantities

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/introduction.html

Textbooks also explain that x,y,z and t are related to measurements.
E.g. t is obtained from reading a clock.

> It is ds that tells us something about distances and time
> intervals.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That means, the c(t) in the above equation has no physical meaning at
> all. It can be absorbed into the definition of the coordinates.

This is also wrong. For avoid further confusion consider the case when
c(t) = c, then we have

ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - (dx^2+dy^2+dz^2)

ds^2 = dt'^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2

with dt' = c dt

The physical meaning of c is also given in textbooks. It is the speed
of light and it is one of the "fundamental physical constants"

http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?c

--
http://www.canonicalscience.org/

BLOG:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/publicationzone/canonicalsciencetoday/canonic
alsciencetoday.html

Andreas Most - 19 Feb 2010 17:57 GMT
> Andreas Most wrote on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:27:29 +0000:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Textbooks also explain that x,y,z and t are related to measurements.
> E.g. t is obtained from reading a clock.

Textbooks about GR talk about manifolds where you have maps from open
subsets of a topological space onto open subsets of R^4. The latter
give us coordinates to identify points on the manifold by means of one
of the maps. Obviously the mapping is not unique, Moreover, neither the
euclidean nor the minkowskian distance between two points in R^4 tells
us anything about the distance between the two mapped points on the
manifold. The distance is given by the line element ds with

ds² = g_ik dx^i dx^k

It is ds where you need the units, not the dx^i. This applies for both
spatial and time distances. Apart from identifying points on a manifold
there is no physical meaning to the coordinates. (If the neighbourhood
of a point is almost flat it is of course conveniant to choose a mapping
such that the minkowskian metric can be used as an approximation:

ds² = (eta_ik +  O(x²)) dx^i dx^k  

In this case one also applies units to x,y,z,t but it is not mandatory
to choose such a coordinate system.

>> It is ds that tells us somthing about distances and time
>> intervals.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?c

Physicist consider constants to be fundamental if they have no units.
c is as fundamental as the relation between feet and miles which are
used in aviation in the United States to measure height and distance with
different units.

Andreas.
Jenny - 13 Feb 2010 22:14 GMT
This is not the place to discuss first year calculus or second year
physics but I feel I must reply to eric's post and have set follow ups
to sci.physics.relativity where such elementary matters  more properly
belong.

> > No, look again. Up to this stage I merely stated that "dc and c(t)
> > must have the same dimensions - which seems not only reasonable,  but
> > necessary".

> *sigh*

> A derivative of f(x) drops the order in x by 1, this is basic calculus. If,
> for example, f(x) has initial units [L^2], df/dx is going to have units [L].

First year calculs.

dc is *not* a derivative, it's an infinitesimal (a 'little bit of
something").

A "little bit of something"  (dc) has the same dimensions as "a lot
of the same thing" (c).

> Work it out yourself using some simple functions.

> For dc and c to have the same units, c(t) must have NO UNITS.

This is  first year calculus.

[dx/dt] = [x/t]

[dx/x] = [dt/t] = dimensionless.

[dc/c] = dimensionless  etc.  etc. etc....

> > But if you want to use
> > natural units *in which c is dimensionless* then c(t) must also be
> > dimensionless.

> Ok, you don't know what natural units are.

> Natural units are a scaling of coordinates such that the fundamental
> constants that scaled things previously are now equal to 1. That does not
> make the units go away.

Second year physics.

Natural units are not just a matter of scaling, they also affect
dimenionality. c is taken as 1,  not as 1 metre per second.

> Particle physicists measure the rest mass of particles in terms of electron
> volts. An electron volt is a measure of energy, but in natural units where c
> = 1, it is equivalent to energy via special relativity.

Second year physics.

In particle physics:

 c = e = m_e = \hbar = k_B = 1

and they are ALL dimensionless. otherwise they COULDN'T be equal.

> > If c (a velocity) is dimensionless, why do you find fault if  c(t) (a
> > welocity) also  turns out to be dimensionless?

> ...because I know what units are?

> You've clearly fallen for his labeling trick of calling the expansion
> parameter c(t) a 'speed' even though it is obviously nothing of the sort.

First year calculus.

The notation c(t) is standard calculus notation meaning that c (the
velocity of light) is a function of  t. (as relating to the title of
the thread - Variable light speed).

Hence, if c is a speed then c(t) must be a speed.

To sum up in conventional units

[dc] = [c] = [c(t)] = LT^-1

or, in natural units

[dc] = [c] = [c(t)] = dimensionless

As I have already noted, in relativity  it isbetter  expressed as
c(x,y,z,t).

Love,
Jenny
Rock Brentwood - 13 Feb 2010 11:55 GMT
> > So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.
> Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be
> dimensionless (i.e  dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which
> seems not only reasonable,  but necessary)**.

You're right. It wasn't a particularly smart reply on his part. In
fact, the light cone in the flat space FW metric -- as I wrote the
metric -- is given by the geodesic equation:
  dt^2 - 1/c(t)^2 dr^2 = 0
or
  (dr/dt)^2 = c(t)^2.
Therefore, c(t) is the speed of light at time t.

> So c(t) has dimensions of velocity as might be expected.
> ** If you don't see it yet,  here are the details, step by step:
> [T^-1]  = [LT^-1][T^-1]/[dim c(t)]
[etc.]

Thank you for clarifying that for us -- and for Eric.

The case, as I mentioned in part (4), that's of the most interest is
where A(t)^2 goes linear in t (i.e. the radiation-dominant era). Here,
unlike the case where you restrict to Riemann or Riemann-Cartan
geometry, you can go beyond to t < 0 and you have the model of a
simple a signature-changing boundary.

If you do some searching you'll find other articles where I discuss a
general formalism for dealing with signatures (which is applicable to
degenerate signatures) and for signature change. Part of the reason
for focusing on the Galilean limit is that -- when you treat FW as
"Minkowski + variable c" and (more generally) Bianchi as "Minkowski +
variable non-isotropic c", then this entirely changes the questions
and focus regarding the so-called A(0) = 0 "singularity". Instead of
it being an issue of "small scale, ergo quantum theory applies", it
becomes a question of "non-relativistic limit and/or signature change
through the non-relativistic phase at t = 0 possibly to a Euclidean
phase at t < 0, ergo the Galilean limit applies".

That is, the Big Bang is then not a question of quantum theory, but of
the Galilean limit of Relativity! This is, in small part, what lay
behind the parable

The Untold Story of Light Speed
s.p.r. 1997 August 11
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/browse_thread/thread/dd683ea
a14f616eb/205dfbdcb8aad1e6

eric gisse - 13 Feb 2010 20:07 GMT
>> > So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.
>> Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be
>> dimensionless (i.e  dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which
>> seems not only reasonable,  but necessary)**.
>
> You're right.

No, she isn't.

> It wasn't a particularly smart reply on his part. In
> fact, the light cone in the flat space FW metric -- as I wrote the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>    (dr/dt)^2 = c(t)^2.
> Therefore, c(t) is the speed of light at time t.

Again, just because you say it doesn't make it so.

With the APPROPRIATE factors of c restored:

ds^2 = -c^2 dt^2 + a(t)^2 dr^2

For light paths, ds^2 = 0

dr^2 = (c / a(t))^2 dr^2
dr/dt = +/- c / a(t)

The expansion parameter a(t) has the effective role of increasing the
distance between two points moving with the Hubble flow.

By the way, please tell me how the dimensions make sense if a(t) has units
of anything when both dr/dt and c have units of [L/T].

>> So c(t) has dimensions of velocity as might be expected.
>> ** If you don't see it yet,  here are the details, step by step:
>> [T^-1]  = [LT^-1][T^-1]/[dim c(t)]
> [etc.]
>
> Thank you for clarifying that for us -- and for Eric.

She's wrong, and you don't see it.

> The case, as I mentioned in part (4), that's of the most interest is
> where A(t)^2 goes linear in t (i.e. the radiation-dominant era). Here,
> unlike the case where you restrict to Riemann or Riemann-Cartan
> geometry, you can go beyond to t < 0 and you have the model of a
> simple a signature-changing boundary.

No, you can not. When the expansion parameter equals zero - which it does at
cosmological t = 0 for sane models - you can no longer describe the universe
with a degenerate metric.

It is really quite simple and you have yet to explain your way out of that
simple observation.

> If you do some searching you'll find other articles where I discuss a
> general formalism for dealing with signatures (which is applicable to
> degenerate signatures) and for signature change.

...and you can't. I have given you some reasons why, and you have been
unable to explain why they are wrong. Perhaps you have not read your own
references?

[snip rest]]
Jenny - 14 Feb 2010 16:37 GMT
> >    (dr/dt)^2 = c(t)^2.
> > Therefore, c(t) is the speed of light at time t.

> Again, just because you say it doesn't make it so.

FIRST note that in the above equation  c(t) has the same dimensions as
dr/dt

> With the APPROPRIATE factors of c restored:

> ds^2 = -c^2 dt^2 + a(t)^2 dr^2

NOW PLEASE NOTE   that  a(t)^2 = c^/c(t)^2,  so a(t) is DIMENSIONLESS.

> By the way, please tell me how the dimensions make sense if a(t) has units
> of anything when both dr/dt and c have units of [L/T].

I just explained why a(t) is DIMENSIONLESS. This is trivial algebra

Your original claim was that " c(t)^2 has to be dimensionless"

GO BACK AND LOOK!

Now you claim that a(t)*2 (=)  is dimensionless - which is TRIVIALLY
true

> snip rest

Love,
Jenny
John Polasek - 14 Feb 2010 16:37 GMT
>> > So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.
>> Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be
Here you (someone) are saying that dc/dt = Hc without any basis.
>> dimensionless (i.e  dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which
>> seems not only reasonable,  but necessary)**.
H Is better defined as (da/a)/dt  and upon close inspection H is
simply the operator d/dt having a popularly assigned value equal to
the inverse age of the universe.
>You're right. It wasn't a particularly smart reply on his part. In
>fact, the light cone in the flat space FW metric -- as I wrote the
>metric -- is given by the geodesic equation:
>   dt^2 - 1/c(t)^2 dr^2 = 0  (1)
>or
>   (dr/dt)^2 = c(t)^2.

Isn't this more straightforward:
    c^2dt^2 = dr^2
ergo     r = c*t

>Therefore, c(t) is the speed of light at time t.

Au contraire, it seems to me you arbitrarily established c as a
function of t in (1), as if by fiat, so by what logic can your
calculations confirm c(t)?
The logic seems faulty and also the simple conclusion  r = ct is much
more interesting, and more justifiable.

snip

>The Untold Story of Light Speed
>s.p.r. 1997 August 11
John Polasek
Jenny - 15 Feb 2010 18:36 GMT
> >> > So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.
> >> Surely if H = (dc/dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be

> Here you (someone) are saying that dc/dt = Hc without any basis.

Eric had written:
______________________
Hubble's constant is defined via the FRW manifold and the
corresponding
Friedmann equations assuming a perfect fluid universe by the equation
H = (dc/dt) / c,in your notation.

Given that H has units of [T^-1], c(t) must be dimensionless.

So, uh, c(t) is not a speed of anything.
______________________

Perhaps you should reply to that poster, if you think he's wrong.
Good luck

*I* (Jenny, thinking that he was wrong) had replied "surely if H = (dc/
dt)/c and H has units of [T^-1], then dc/c must be dimensionless (i.e
dc and c(t) must have the same dimensions - which seems not only
reasonable,  but necessary)".

So c(t) has dimensions of velocity as might be expected.
_______________________

Instead of discussing the merits of some postulate of physics, this
thread has been reduced to a mysterious debate about whether the
equation is dimensionally correct - which it clearly is.

> H Is better defined as (da/a)/dt  and upon close inspection H is
> simply the operator d/dt having a popularly assigned value equal to
> the inverse age of the universe.

That might be. Perhaps you should reply to that poster. Good luck.

> >You're right. It wasn't a particularly smart reply on his part. In
> >fact, the light cone in the flat space FW metric -- as I wrote the
> >metric -- is given by the geodesic equation:
> >   dt^2 - 1/c(t)^2 dr^2 = 0  (1)
> >or
> >   (dr/dt)^2 = c(t)^2.

> Isn't this more straightforward:
>         c^2dt^2 = dr^2
> ergo    r = c*t

It's straight forward, but it would have no relevance to the topic -
"... ... Variable Speed of Light)".

It does however have some relevance to the subtopic as to whether c(t)
has the correct dimensions. As you can clearly see, if c(t) could not
have the dimensions of velocity, then neither could "c".

Perhaps you can reply to the poster who thinks that "c" doesn't have
the dimensions of velocity. Good luck.

> >Therefore, c(t) is the speed of light at time t.

> Au contraire, it seems to me you arbitrarily established c as a
> function of t in (1), as if by fiat, so by what logic can your
> calculations confirm c(t)?

Au tres contraire, the logic is tres impeccable. Rock was establishing
logical CONSISTENCY, not logical TRUTH.

It had been claimed (erroneously) that Rock's equation was  logically
inconsistent in that  c(t) could not have dimensions of velocity. Rock
was merely establishing a logical consistency in response to that
criticism.

> The logic seems faulty and also the simple conclusion  r = ct is much
> more interesting, and more justifiable.

The logic is impeccable. To postulate that the speed of light  is
constant is not very interesting at all, since that's the established
view and has led to certain as yet unresolved conflicts with QM.

New postulates are NEEDED to break out of this quagmire.

Love,
Jenny
carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu - 09 Feb 2010 07:55 GMT
> The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed

[...]
> (1) Flat FW Metric = Minkowski with Variable Light Speed
> The FW metric is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
> = c(t).

Let A(t )= t.  Then the metric you've written down (the "Milne Universe")
is flat -- it's simply a piece of Minkowski space.  

Are you claiming that the speed of light in Minkowski space is variable?
If so, with what choice of t?  (The metric you've written down describes
a piece of Minkowski space inside the future light cone of some arbitrary
point P.  Different choices of P will give different values of your c(t)
at the same point in Minkowski space.

Steve Carlip
Jenny - 09 Feb 2010 23:10 GMT
On Feb 9, 1:55 am, carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> > The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Let A(t )= t.  Then the metric you've written down (the "Milne Universe")
> is flat -- it's simply a piece of Minkowski space.  

But A(t) has dimensions of inverse velocity [TL^-1], that's why he
calls it 1/c(t).  Wouldn't  Minkowski space be the case only if  c(t)
= c  (i.e.  constant)?  In which case there would have been no
original  post to which we could respond.

> Are you claiming that the speed of light in Minkowski space is variable?

Surely if c is variable then it isn't Minkowski space, in which c is
taken to be constant.

> If so, with what choice of t?  (The metric you've written down describes
> a piece of Minkowski space inside the future light cone of some arbitrary
> point P.  Different choices of P will give different values of your c(t)
> at the same point in Minkowski space.

It seems clear (to me) that c(t) should be c(x,y,z,t).

It's not clear (to me) in that case why the metric only describes  a
"piece of Minkowski space inside the future light cone of some
arbitrary point P".  The OP postulated no such restriction and the
scenario doesn't seem to require it.

It's also not clear (to me) in that case why c(x,y,z,t) cannot be
invariant.  Surely ds^2 is a local measurement (at a point), no "P"
seems to be involved.

Not understanding much of this, but keenly interested.

Love,
Jenny
carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu - 10 Feb 2010 07:45 GMT
> On Feb 9, 1:55 am, carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> > > The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed

> > [...]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > > or, simply: as the Minkowski metric with a variable speed of light, c
> > > = c(t).

> > Let A(t )= t.  Then the metric you've written down (the  
> > "Milne Universe") is flat -- it's simply a piece of Minkowski space.  

> But A(t) has dimensions of inverse velocity [TL^-1], that's why he
> calls it 1/c(t).  

OK, I should have said "let A(t) = A_0 t, where A_0 is a constant."

> Wouldn't  Minkowski space be the case only if  c(t) = c  
> (i.e.  constant)?  

No.  If you calculate the curvature tensor for the Milne Universe,
you'll find that it's zero.  It's just a piece of Minkowski space in
funny coordinates.

(Suppose I give you a metric for a surface of the form

ds^2 = dx^2 + B(x)^2dy^2

This is obviously flat if B=1.  But it's *also* flat if B(x) = x -- just
rename x to be r and y to be theta, and you'll recognize the plane
in polar coordinates.   You can do a similar thing for a metric with
Lorentzian signature -- the Milne Universe is just the Lorentzian
analog of a "polar" description of Minkowski space.)

Steve Carlip
Jenny - 10 Feb 2010 15:45 GMT
On Feb 10, 1:45 am, carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:

> > But A(t) has dimensions of inverse velocity [TL^-1], that's why he
> > calls it 1/c(t).  
>
> OK, I should have said "let A(t) = A_0 t, where A_0 is a constant."

OK thanks.

But why not cook the stew a little bit more.

Why not c(x,y,z,t) as a (simple) wave function with an average value
of "c" and a frequency whose spatial component  (just happens?) to be
the frequency of the light.

If space were curved, then the spatial component would reduce as light
travels and we'd get a red shift (?).

If the cross section of light's  interaction  with matter is a
function of its speed, then we get the familiar "interference"
patterns.

Just taking a statics course, so I don't know much about what happens
when things move.

Love,
Jenny
Rock Brentwood - 13 Feb 2010 11:54 GMT
On Feb 9, 1:55 am, carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> > The FW metric is
> >         ds^2 = dt^2 - A^2 R^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> Let A(t )= t.  Then the metric you've written down (the "Milne Universe")
> is flat -- it's simply a piece of Minkowski space.  
>
> Are you claiming that the speed of light in Minkowski space is variable?

No, actually you just did. A Minkowski geometry in which c(t) is
proportional to t is, according to your observation, equivalent to a
Minkowski geometry with a constant c -- at least in its Lorentzian
sector!

In the larger context of a signature-changing space, the two, however
need not be equivalent. In fact, an interesting exercise for you is to
reconcile your point with the preceding discussion about what happens
at t = 0. In particular, where does the t = 0 surface go, after
transforming coordinate to flat Minkowski space?

The linear case, as discussed above, is a kind of threshold where the
horizon goes from finite to infinite. You get a logarithmic divergence
in the horizon for A(t) = O(t), as t -> 0.

An infinite horizon is a necessary precondition (assuming, that is
A(0) = 0), for one to proceed along the lines "space is scrunched up
at a point at t = 0". As long as A(t) remains sublinear, you can't
consistently treat t = 0 as a "Cosmic Egg", a' la Lemaitre, and the
whole picture of a funnel contracting to a point at t = 0 has to be
thrown out -- replaced, instead, by a "Galilean Limit" picture of
light cones flattening out at t = 0.

An interesting point you indirectly raised is that the horizon in
Milne space is more akin to the cosmological singularity (and hence,
falls under the c -> infinity Lorentzian->Galilean->Euclidean
transition), rather than a causal horizon (in which the transition
goes through c -> 0, as Lorentzian-> "Archimedean" -> Euclidean).

So, it might also serve as a good place to try out different ideas on
doing the Galilean limit. In turn, the Galilean limit issue serves as
a good medium for carrying over the discussion of "junction
conditions", along the lines of Mansouri & Kozari; Hayward, et. al.;
Ellis, etc.
Rock Brentwood - 02 Mar 2010 00:15 GMT
On Feb 9, 1:55 am, carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> > (1) Flat FW Metric = Minkowski with Variable Light Speed
> > The FW metric is
> >         ds^2 = dt^2 - A^2 R^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
> Let A(t )= t.  Then the metric you've written down (the "Milne Universe")
> is flat -- it's simply a piece of Minkowski space.  

However, since the original article was about the *FLAT* FW metric
(i.e. the case R = 1), then your question isn't actually relevant to
the discussion.

In no case is a Milne metric spatially flat -- except the case where
the factor A is constant, i.e. c(t) = c.

Sorry, I should have taken a closer look at your reply before.
jwill@BasicISP.net - 09 Feb 2010 07:55 GMT
> The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> ...

A lot of this isn't necessary, although it may be consistent.

Inflation can be explained simply by assuming that the Big Bang not
only created a lot of baryonic matter, but it also created or
modified the parameters describing an interval in the
"space" into which the expansion proceeded.

By definition of vacuum permittivity and permeability,
the speed of light c == 1/sqrt(epsilon_0*mu_0)

If either epsilon_0 or mu_0 was lower during inflation
than during the present epoch, c would be higher than
at present.

It seems reasonable that the properties of the vacuum
would vary during some of the time during which the
universe was being created.

Space need not have been warped or bent (somehow)
during inflation; the scale simply might be assumed
magnified  linearly instead.

This approach provides a physical (mechanical) as well as
mathematical basis to quantify inflation.
Rock Brentwood - 13 Feb 2010 11:55 GMT
On Feb 9, 1:55 am, "jw...@BasicISP.net" <jw...@BasicISP.net> wrote:
> A lot of this isn't necessary, although it may be consistent.
>
> By definition of vacuum permittivity and permeability,
> the speed of light c == 1/sqrt(epsilon_0*mu_0)

The correct definition of these (or other constitutive coefficients)
are given in terms of a Lagrangian field theory in terms of the
derivatives of the Lagrangian with respect to the field invariants.

In an electrodynamic field theory given by a Routhian R = R(E, H), the
permeability and permittivity are given by
 epsilon = dR/d(E^2/2), mu = dR/d(H^2/2).
Under the variational,
  delta(R) = D.delta(E) + B.delta(H)
this leads to the constitutive laws
  D = epsilon E, B = mu H.
if R is a function of the parity-symmetry isotropic invariants (i.e. R
= R(E^2/2, H^2/2).

Equivlaently, in a Lagrangian field theory specified by a Lagrangian L
= L(E^2/2, B^2/2), the variational is given by
  delta(L) = epsilon delta(E^2/2) - 1/mu delta(B^2/2)
leading to the constitutive relations
  D = epsilon E, B = mu H
via the variational
  delta(L) = D.delta(E) - H.delta(B).

This, in fact, is essentially the formalism that Maxwell himself
originally adopted back in the 1860's, though he did not explicitly
lay out the constitutive law in the context of a Lagrangian/Routhian
formalism. The Routhian formalism is the closest in spirit to
Maxwell's 1861 and 1864 papers. (And in a nearby article not too long
ago, I also pointed out another major oversight even in the present-
day literature that's led to wrong conclusions being drawn about the
nature of the Galilean limit for gauge theory: the "dielectric
coefficient" kappa = dR/d(E^2/2) does NOT equate to the permittivity
epsilon = dL/d(E^2/2), when the Lagrangian or Routhian are not parity-
symmetric).

The electromagnetic field (and, more generally, the gauge field) are
defined by a 1-form potential, which in 3+1 form would be
  A = *A*.dr - phi dt (*A* = vector potential)
and the field strengths by the 2-form
  F = *B*.dr + *E*.dr ^ dt.
which has components
  F_{ij} = epsilon_{ijk} B^k, F_{i0} = E_i
  where dt = dx^0, dr = (dx^1, dx^2, dx^3).

When you substitute this into the Maxwell-Lorentz Lagrangian
  L = -1/4 k root(|g|) g^{mn} g^{rs} F_{mr} F_{ns}
  k = coupling coefficient
with the given metric
  ds^2 = dt^2 - 1/c^2 dr^2
you get
  root(|g|) = 1/c^3
  g^{ij} = -c^2 delta^{ij}, g^{00} = 1, g^{i0} = 0 = g^{0j}
hence
  L = -1/2 k/c^3 (-c^2 delta^{ij} E_i E_j + c^4 delta_{ij} B^i B^j)
  = 1/2 (k/c |E|^2 - kc }B|^2).

Hence
  epsilon = k/c(t), mu = 1/k 1/c(t)
are variable; and
  epsilon mu = 1/c(t)^2
(that is, apart from any variation in k).

For a gauge field this generalizes. The equivalent to epsilon is the
coupling coefficient g, given via the correspondence
  epsilon_{ab} c <-> kappa_{ab}/g^2
where kappa_{ab} is the Killing metric and (a,b,...) index the degrees
of freedom of the gauge group (which, here, applies for simple gauge
groups). Then you get g(t)^2 proportional to c(t).

> If either epsilon_0 or mu_0 was lower during inflation
> than during the present epoch, c would be higher than
> at present

The above discussion applies to all FW cosmologies, and generalizes to
Bianchi cosmologies; but is a little-advertised feature. Permittivity
and permeability are variable (apart from variation in the coupling
coefficient k, itself).
eric gisse - 13 Feb 2010 22:14 GMT
[...]

> The above discussion applies to all FW cosmologies, and generalizes to
> Bianchi cosmologies; but is a little-advertised feature. Permittivity
> and permeability are variable (apart from variation in the coupling
> coefficient k, itself).

Permittivity and permeability only exist in dielectric media.

Write Maxwell's equations in vacuum and all that you can see are factors of
'c' in the field equations - no eps, no mu.
robert bristow-johnson - 14 Feb 2010 08:42 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Write Maxwell's equations in vacuum and all that you can see are factors of
> 'c' in the field equations - no eps, no mu.

unless you ditch them, by use of some definition of natural units,
there should be two parameters to fully define Maxwell's equations.
if not eps_0 and mu_0, then it should be c and Z_0, the propagation
speed and characteristic impedance of the medium.

i always thought it was better to express Maxwell's equations in terms
of c and Z than the common way.

r b-j
Jenny - 14 Feb 2010 19:43 GMT
> Permittivity and permeability only exist in dielectric media.

> Write Maxwell's equations in vacuum and all that you can see are factors of
> 'c' in the field equations - no eps, no mu.

By DEFINITION, Permittiviy of Free Space x Permeability of Free Space = 1/c^2

Or,  as jwill wrote: "By DEFINITION of vacuum permittivity and
permeability,  the speed of light c == 1/sqrt(epsilon_0*mu_0)"

So we can write Maxwell's equations without using "c" at all,  if we
choose.

What RELEVANT point are you trying to make here?

Love,
Jenny
jwill@BasicISP.net - 14 Feb 2010 19:43 GMT
> On Feb 9, 1:55 am, "jw...@BasicISP.net" <jw...@BasicISP.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and permeability are variable (apart from variation in the coupling
> coefficient k, itself).

Thanks for the calculations, but you are confusing a physical constant
with a variable.   The vacuum permittivity (epsilon_0) is a physical
constant, and so is the vacuum permeability (mu_0).  They are not
variables, although their values are subject to precision of physical
measurement.

c is a physical constant and is DEFINED, not measured, as
1/sqrt(epsilon_0*mu_0).  Correction of c involves updating of epsilon_0
and mu_0.   The constant c is well known and itself defines a
singularity in the mechanics described by Einstein's special (and
general) theory of relativity.

[Moderator's note:  It is a practical matter which constants are
defined, which are measured, which are considered more fundamental etc.
Today, the speed of light c is defined as 299,792,458 meters per second
(i.e. the second---defined as the time for a certain number of certain
atomic osciallations to take place---is already defined and, since the
speed of light is known to be a constant of nature, this actually
defines the meter).  mu_0 is a purely geometric factor.  With c and m_0
defined and a known relationship between the three, epsilon_0 is thus
fixed as well.  Only one of these three is independent and current
practice is to fix c and derive epsilon_0 (m_0 being a purely numerical
factor).  -P.H.]

Dielectric peoperties of materials are in terms of the permittivity and
permeability of the material, with permittivity typically expressed as
kappa*epsilon_0, and similarly for mu_0. The physical constants are the
vacuum values; material values are obtained by scaling.

Maxwell's equations IN VACUUM use the vacuum values, usually calling
them the "permittivity constant" and the "permeability constant".

Of course, one can treat c as a parameter, and thus vary it
mathematically.   No problem there; but, one has to vary epsilon_0 and
mu_0 concomitantly.  If these parameters are not allocated the
variations consistently, along with any variation of c, the system will
no longer be physical. There's no special reason why a change in c
should affect them equally -- or unequally.

My original point was that it would be more productive to vary either
epsilon_0 or mu_0 or both in order to obtain the new value of c.  
Merely varying c not only rejects general relativity (well-proven) but
creates physically useless tensor expressions.

One can speculate on the mechanics of inflation in terms of vacuum
properties, but, in my opinion, not just in terms of a change in c.
Richard D. Saam - 16 Feb 2010 22:14 GMT
>> On Feb 9, 1:55 am, "jw...@BasicISP.net" <jw...@BasicISP.net> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> practice is to fix c and derive epsilon_0 (m_0 being a purely numerical
> factor).  -P.H.]
One is independent, so why do you need the other two?
For simplicity, let c be c
and epsilon_0=1 and  mu_0=1 in a vacuum.
The MKS SI units get in the way of such simplicity.

> Dielectric peoperties of materials are in terms of the permittivity and
> permeability of the material, with permittivity typically expressed as
> kappa*epsilon_0, and similarly for mu_0. The physical constants are the
> vacuum values; material values are obtained by scaling.

Why not scale in terms of:

v1 = sqrt(1/permittivity)*c

v2 = sqrt(1/(permittivity*permeablity)*c

and then address some of the grand concepts of astrophysics
such as CMBR (in terms of v1 and v1^2)
and cold dark matter (in terms of v2 and v2^2)

and scaling these concepts with the universe age
all the way back to the Big Bang.

> Maxwell's equations IN VACUUM use the vacuum values, usually calling
> them the "permittivity constant" and the "permeability constant".
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> no longer be physical. There's no special reason why a change in c
> should affect them equally -- or unequally.

'There's no special reason why a change in c
should affect them equally -- or unequally'
but given c there may be physical reasons why permittivity and
permeablity scale with each other.

> My original point was that it would be more productive to vary either
> epsilon_0 or mu_0 or both in order to obtain the new value of c.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> One can speculate on the mechanics of inflation in terms of vacuum
> properties, but, in my opinion, not just in terms of a change in c.
Rock Brentwood - 02 Mar 2010 06:22 GMT
On Feb 14, 1:43 pm, "jw...@BasicISP.net" <jw...@BasicISP.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the calculations, but you are confusing a physical constant
> with a variable.   The vacuum permittivity (epsilon_0) is a physical
> constant, and so is the vacuum permeability (mu_0).  They are not
> variables, although their values are subject to precision of physical
> measurement.

No. Actually, you're confusing a physical quantity for a constant. The
definitions of permittivity and permeability and independent and
logically prior to any convention that may or may not be adopted and
these quantities cannot be "defined" away. That they can is a serious
misconception (unfortunately widespread even in the mainstream
folklore, though untenable and logically contradictory) and this
problem has been hammered home by people, such as Hehl, who have
pointed out that these quantities must be considered as separate
independent quantities -- even in a microphysical theory.

No logically consistent theory (neither classical nor quantum theoretic)
can be posed in which the D and H fields remain fixed multiplies of E
and B. It is not too hard to see -- and this was a MAJOR point made by
Maxwell in the first chapter of his treatise, which unfortunately got
lost by the mistake of Lorentz's posting of the "Lorentz relations" (D =
epsilon_0 E, B = mu_0 H) as "fundamental" relations.

Such relations lead to a logical inconsistency where none would
otherwise be present and are, therefore self-contradictory (indeed,
that was the reason Maxwell asserted the necessity for treating these
quantities as separate quantities in their own right, posing two
thought experiments to make the point -- both being relevant even
today at the classical and quantum theoretic level, and in both
electromagnetic theory and gauge theory).

In the presence of concentrated sources rho goes singular, and
therefore (by the Gauss law) D too. The force density in the vicinity
of the source is rho E, and the energy density D.E. In the presence of
a constant relation, E would inherit the singularity of D and both
quantities would become ill-defined.

Therefore, the notion of "constant" permittivity and permeability or
of somehow erasing these quantities by "notational convention" is
wrong. Even if you adopt such notation conventions, they will continue
to appear in other guises -- only (with the confused notational
convention) muddying up the waters (e.g. that the "charge" is
renormalized; when it's actually epsilon that is, the confusion coming
about because the common convention equates the charge e' to what is
actually e/sqrt(4 pi epsilon)).

> c is a physical constant and is DEFINED

This is also wrong. There is no such thing as "defining" a physical
quantity. Humans are not Gods. They cannot define features of the
universe; they can only define the units used to measure the universe
with.

c is not "defined" by anywhere or anyone. It is the meter that is
defined as 1/299792458 light-seconds. That is the ISO definition (and
is, in fact, essentially how the ISO states the definition -- as they
should).

This convention is fine, as long as you don't suffer the "King's
Thumb" problem -- the problem where the standard of definition is,
itself, changing. Though there is no way to define "absolute" change
of quantities with dimensions, there is still a notion of "absolute
change" -- namely, when the quantity in question goes to 0 or
infinity.

The convention of equating 1 meter to 1/299792458 light-seconds breaks
down in any setting where either c -> 0 or c -> infinity -- i.e. on
the boundary of a signature domain in any signature-changing
continuum.

The very use of the convention (or any other kind of "newspeak"
convention) serves as demonstration and fulfillment of the Sapir-Whorf
Hypothesis. This is why such conventions should always be avoided.
They lead to oversights being (wrongly) sublimated under the accrual
of convention to the point where you can't even ask the question
anymore. Here,. what's PHYSICALLY RELEVANT that is lost by the
convention is the very notion of signature change that ran central to
the article you're replying to.

Thus, not only is your objection not right (and this goes for the
widespread point of view it conveys); it isn't even wrong.

, not measured, as
> 1/sqrt(epsilon_0*mu_0).  Correction of c involves updating of epsilon_0
> and mu_0.   The constant c is well known and itself defines a
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> One can speculate on the mechanics of inflation in terms of vacuum
> properties, but, in my opinion, not just in terms of a change in c.
Richard D. Saam - 04 Mar 2010 10:26 GMT
> On Feb 14, 1:43 pm, "jw...@BasicISP.net"<jw...@BasicISP.net>  wrote:
>> Thanks for the calculations, but you are confusing a physical constant
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> pointed out that these quantities must be considered as separate
> independent quantities -- even in a microphysical theory.

It appears to be a matter of semantics.
Yes, permittivity and permeability
'must be considered as separate and independent quantities',
which is not contradictory
to their unnecessarily complicated
but conventionally accepted expression
as kappa*epsilon_0 and (relative permeability)*mu_0.

>> Dielectric peoperties of materials are in terms of the permittivity and
>> permeability of the material, with permittivity typically expressed as
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> Maxwell's equations IN VACUUM use the vacuum values, usually calling
>> them the "permittivity constant" and the "permeability constant".
Dr J R Stockton - 04 Mar 2010 10:26 GMT
In sci.physics.research message <3a336218-b456-47b4-a5c8-0202f919ff77@y1
1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, Tue, 2 Mar 2010 06:22:59, Rock Brentwood
<markwh04@yahoo.com> posted:

>c is not "defined" by anywhere or anyone. It is the meter that is
>defined as 1/299792458 light-seconds. That is the ISO definition (and
>is, in fact, essentially how the ISO states the definition -- as they
>should).

The definition of the metre is not the responsibility of ISO.

See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGPM>,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIPM>.

Signature

(c) John Stockton, near London. *@merlyn.demon.co.uk/?.?.Stockton@physics.org
Web  <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Correct <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (RFC5536/7)
Do not Mail News to me.    Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (RFC5536/7)

Rock Brentwood - 10 Feb 2010 02:24 GMT
> The Big Bang & Variable Light Speed
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> or
>     H_T = c(T) T (3g)/(3g - 2).

That is essence of the horizon "problem", when this fact is taken in
conjunction with the fact of the uniformity seen at the time of "last
scattering".

The reason it's called a problem is based partly on the notion that
there "wasn't enough time" beforehand for anything to have become
correlated with one another. But part of the contention here is how
much this very idea is begging the question(!); particularly when t =
0 is an envelope of light cones and is a surface of absolute
simultaneity (never mind that you have all of the t < 0 sector
available for stuff to have become correlated within!)

> If the earliest epoch were actually radiation-dominant all the way
> down to t = 0, then alpha would go linear all the way to t = 0 and
> could simply continue on linearly for t < 0 into negative values.
>
> Then the "horizon problem" becomes a red herring. This is underscored
> by a closer examination of what happens to the light cones at t = 0.

i.e., a second part of the condtion: null geodesics are NOT incomplete
(that is, if we assume the radiation-dominant epoch applies all the
way down to t = 0)! They reflect off ot t = 0, parabolically, and go
back toward the future direction.

> The past light cone for t > 0 is connected to:
>     (a) the Galilean non-relativistic sector, t = 0, within the horizon,
>     (b) the Euclidean sector, t < 0, in its entirety,
>     (c) the Lorentzian sector, t > 0, OUTSIDE the outward-directed future-
> pointing light cones emanating from the horizon.

Point (a) has to be modified and the modification is relevant to the
issue just raised. Since t = 0 is a null surface (as an equal time
surface is in Newton-Cartan spacetime, in general) then the connection
goes out beyond the horizon to all the t = 0 surface. It's an
instantaneous connection.

This underscores the point about the "lack of time for stuff to talk
to one another before the last scattering time" being a red herring.
There's plenty of time at t = 0, so to say (and all of t < 0).

The parabolic reflection property raises an interesting idea, along
the side: is there a way to get this so that one can have destructive
interference on the future light cones? That is, the return signal
cancels, when it reaches point x through its past light cone, cancels
out that part of the signal coming to x from its future light cone.
This is something along the lines of back-scattering and runs close to
the kinds of ideas raised by Zeh in Chapter 2 of his arrow of time
book.

But this is a cleaner take on the idea of a cosmological absorber.
Instead of an absorber, we have a kind of reflecting hypersurface at t
= 0.

But back to the original issue: another part what drives the look for
"inflationary" models is the so-called fine tuning problem, which as
I'm about to explain may be just as much a red herring.

This is an article I happened to pick up not too long ago (and one I
may have seen an arXiv link to a while back, though I don't have the
reference any longer).

Distributional Approach to Signature Change
R. Mansouri, K. Nozari
in (M. Rainer, H-J. Schmidt, eds.)
Current Topics in Mathematical Cosmology
406-418

They're using Colombeau theory to work with distributions in the non-
linear setting given by GR. The problem I have is one I raised before
-- the source of the so-called "singularity" is a breakdown in
Riemannian geometry. If you're going to call the metric at t = 0:
  ds^2 = dt^2
singular, then technically, by whatever definition you're using,
spacetime in Newtonian theory is singular since its metric is rank 1.
So obviously, something is wrong with the definition of "singularity"
and the question is raised as to whether you're even using the right
terminology and whether you have the right concepts, in the first
place, when tou equate t = 0 with this idea of a point-like "Cosmic
Egg" has used to be done back in the time of Lemaitre.

It makes more sense simply to take on the tact already afforted to us
by non-relativistic curved space-time theory, where the two metrics
g_{mn} and g^{mn} are now treated as independent. The only
"singularity" that actually occurs comes from the infinity associated
with the metric
  (g_{mn})^{-1}
when we strictly tie it to the covariant metric.

In fact, in the article posted not too long back on the unified
treatment of Lorentzian, Euclidean and Galilean GR, we ended up
regularizing the metric (by adding in a projective dimension) and --
along the way -- also accomplished the task of removing a factor of
c^2 from the coupling and dynamics.

This makes the metrics at t = 0 regular: both of them.

So, I have a problem with any notion of t = 0 being any kind of
singularity at all -- and equally much with the idea of need to use
any kind of distributional treatment of the dynamics.

But the REAL point raised in the article was this idea of junction
conditions. This apparently is (or was, at the time of the reference,
1998) an active area of research -- and contention. There are
different junction conditions described (by Ellis, Hayward, Kossowski
& Kriele, etc. -- references contained in the paper) that touch
DIRECTLY on the question of "initial conditions".

Here, the initial conditions are the conditions required to get a
Euclidean and Lorentzian sector to consistently stifch together across
the Galilean boundary. Kossowski and Kriele claim to get non-flat
vacuum solutions (but only with smooth signature changes). Hellaby and
Dray get non-vanishing energy-momentum tensors. Hayward is getting a
vanishing energy-momentum tensor.

Hayward also considered the idea of flatness, large-scale isotropy and
increasing entropy (S.A. Hayward, Class. Quantum Grav. 10, L7 (1993)).

Of course, this raises the natural question: how much of the so-called
"fine tuning" problem can be subsumed by the "junction condition"
approach? Fine tuning may simply be a case of self-consistency,
imposed by the requirement that the two signatures join up
consistently

In fact, we could even go as far as saying that if we can DERIVE
suitable junction conditions to replace "fine tuning" conditions then,
wherever these replacments occur, we have (by that fact) empirical
evidence arguing in favor of the notion of signature change, itself.

It beats resorting to Medievalistic type teleological arguments aloing
the line ("everything is the way it is because it's just what's
required to give us life and sentient beings.") which, frankly, is a
drag that saps the very life out of science, itself.
 
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