String Theory - Fact Or Fantasy?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 20:16 GMT I don't know if this topic has already been beaten to death here or not. If so, maybe someone will be kind enough to advise me and we'll just let it die.
My only sources of information and understanding about this topic come from reading scientific journals, magazines, TV documentaries and the web. I've tried to keep myself informed as much as possible, but it's pretty difficult to stay on top of something so complicated. Nevertheless, I find it fascinating.
There was an excellent 3 part TV documentary broadcast about 6 months ago on the American PBS network...part of their excellent "Nova" series. If anyone has the opportunity to see it...don't miss it! The visual aids alone are worth the investment of your time. It's called "The Elegant Universe", and is based on the book by Brian Greene. You can actually watch (broadband connection pretty much essential) the 3 full episodes online here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/
Here's a pretty good link to a page that is brimming with cross-links and references:
http://www.answers.com/string%20theory
I'll leave it at that for now. Comments and contributions are of course invited. Kooks & cranks will be shot on sight...metaphorically of course.
Sam Wormley - 20 Jul 2005 20:41 GMT Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read?
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 21:13 GMT > Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? Nothing terribly technical...Science, Nature, Scientific American...why do you ask?
Uncle Al - 20 Jul 2005 22:34 GMT > > Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? > > Nothing terribly technical...Science, Nature, Scientific American...why do > you ask? Sam hears the hollow echoes. Use search engines if you cannot get to a university library,
http://arXiv.org/ http://www.scirus.com/ http://scitation.aip.org/ http://scholar.google.com/
"Science" and "Nature" are OK but not very rigorous. "Scientific American" is glossy fluff. If you care enough to know than you care enough to find out. If you are going to accept something technical then at least have it be something technical that passed peer review. The worst of the crap will be rejected, along with the most innovative proposals. Get a little, give a little.
It is no what we don't know that truly hurts us, it is what we know to be true that isn't.
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 22:58 GMT >> > Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It is no what we don't know that truly hurts us, it is what we know to > be true that isn't. Most of the technical reading I have to do is about computer programming and related subjects. I'm not trying to be bleedin' Superman ya know...nor am I required to be in order to lead a productive life.
Sam Wormley - 21 Jul 2005 00:41 GMT >>>>Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > related subjects. I'm not trying to be bleedin' Superman ya know...nor am I > required to be in order to lead a productive life. Mr. Knowitall--You should have gleaned from the http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/
that string theory is speculative at best and that there hasn't been and testable predition to date.
Mr. Knowitall - 21 Jul 2005 00:55 GMT >>>>>Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > that string theory is speculative at best and that there hasn't been > and testable predition to date. I don't recall coming down on one side or the other at this point...so let's not start with what I "should have" done already.
Sam Wormley - 21 Jul 2005 01:16 GMT >>>>>>Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I don't recall coming down on one side or the other at this point...so let's > not start with what I "should have" done already. OK--But you did start this "String Theory - Fact Or Fantasy?" as if you had no idea.
Mr. Knowitall - 21 Jul 2005 02:08 GMT >>>>>>>Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > OK--But you did start this "String Theory - Fact Or Fantasy?" as if > you had no idea. Merely opened a topic for discussion. If you don't approve of my methods, then you're welcome to stay out of it.
Sam Wormley - 21 Jul 2005 04:55 GMT > Merely opened a topic for discussion. If you don't approve of my methods, > then you're welcome to stay out of it. Sorry I'm annoying you, Mr. Knowitall. Hopefully this will be a fruitful forum for discussing and leaning about physics for you (and all of us).
Mr. Knowitall - 21 Jul 2005 16:07 GMT >> Merely opened a topic for discussion. If you don't approve of my methods, >> then you're welcome to stay out of it. > > Sorry I'm annoying you, Mr. Knowitall. Hopefully this will be a > fruitful forum for discussing and leaning about physics for you > (and all of us). Thank you Sam. Let's forget any possibly ruffled feathers and move on.
Sam Wormley - 20 Jul 2005 22:39 GMT >>Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? > > Nothing terribly technical...Science, Nature, Scientific American...why do > you ask? I was curious.
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 22:45 GMT >>>Mr. Knowitall, what scientific journals do you read? >> >> Nothing terribly technical...Science, Nature, Scientific American...why >> do you ask? > > I was curious. Now you know.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 20 Jul 2005 21:18 GMT Mr Know Ed Witten gives the String Theory great credibility as well as Brian Greene. Years ago John Schwarz,and Joel Scherk wrote well received papers that kept it alive. Unlike QM with all its weirdness it passed every experiment. String Theory can'[t even be tested. Still it is more than an act of faith. It fits well with a lot of my theoretical thinking. String theory might only come out of the human brain,and computer programming,and be more like a virtual particle. Like the virtual photons we use to show how magnets attract. Bert
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 22:01 GMT > Mr Know Ed Witten gives the String Theory great credibility as well as > Brian Greene. Years ago John Schwarz,and Joel Scherk wrote well [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > computer programming,and be more like a virtual particle. Like the > virtual photons we use to show how magnets attract. Bert I can certainly see the potential breakthrough that the Theory may provide, but it concerns me greatly that the theorists on the leading edge of this kind of research seem to be constantly scrambling to make the horse fit the shoe, so to speak, instead of the other way around. If their equations reveal a glaring flaw, they tend to invent yet another mathematical dimension (or convenient variable) to account for it. I can't escape the intuitive feeling that the Universe isn't that complicated. William of Ockham (also spelled Occam), perhaps said it best, "the simplest explanation to any problem is the best explanation".
I've always enjoyed "Charly's" famous punctuation test from the novel "Flowers For Algernon":
"That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is". The goal is to properly punctuate that string of words so that it makes sense.
Fendetestas - 20 Jul 2005 22:34 GMT > I've always enjoyed "Charly's" famous punctuation test from the novel > "Flowers For Algernon": > > "That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is". The goal > is to properly punctuate that string of words so that it makes sense. That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is.
 Signature Fendetestas
verdadera@dirección.aqui -----> dr_fendetestas att telefonica dott net
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 22:44 GMT >> I've always enjoyed "Charly's" famous punctuation test from the novel >> "Flowers For Algernon": [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is. Very close...but you missed one. Thanks for comin' out.
CWatters - 20 Jul 2005 22:50 GMT > I can't escape the intuitive feeling that the Universe isn't that complicated.
and I'm sure many people working on string theory agree with you.
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 23:28 GMT >> I can't escape the intuitive feeling that the Universe isn't that > complicated. > > and I'm sure many people working on string theory agree with you. I truly wish I was one of those people. When I was 18, I wanted to be an astronomer or a physicist...or hey!...maybe even an *astrophysicist*...and would have made a pretty good one. When I was 25, I had a next to useless BA degree and was already on wife #2 and kid #3. When I was 30, I owned my own taxi/limousine service on Vancouver Island. When I was 35, I got into the computer field where I remain over 20 years later. My youngest grandson's other grandfather is a former Palestinian terrorist. Isn't life strange?
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 21 Jul 2005 05:14 GMT Mr Know Books can be written how physicists use fudging. Bert
PD - 22 Jul 2005 16:43 GMT > > Mr Know Ed Witten gives the String Theory great credibility as well as > > Brian Greene. Years ago John Schwarz,and Joel Scherk wrote well [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ockham (also spelled Occam), perhaps said it best, "the simplest explanation > to any problem is the best explanation". I don't think that's a fair assessment of how they've been working. It turns out that the theory makes mathematical sense if it is a theory of more than four dimensions (10, 11, or 26 -- I can't keep it straight which is which), but they haven't been adding dimensions to the theory to patch it up. A better characterization is that the bare bones sketch of an idea corresponds to hundreds of possible, more concrete theories. Developing the idea further and looking for mathematical consistency narrows it down to dozens of possible concrete theories. (One of the things that Witten did was to show that five different classes of theories were mathematically equivalent, which said the same physical things in different mathematical representations.) Comparison with existing experimental data and insisting on consistency with current successful "effective theories" (to use Gordy Kane's term) narrows the number down to several promising candidates. Comparison with future experimental data will hopefully reduce that number of candidates to one.
Now, as to whether those models are too complicated (as in the number of dimensions required), I suggest that you don't have a good understanding of what appears to be unnecessary complications in our current model. For example, we have three generations of fundamental particles that are identical in every way except mass -- and we have no good explanation for why that Everything in Triplicate rule should be the case. String theory appears to provide a natural explanation for that, in exchange for dimensions (possibly rolled up) that we haven't yet seen.
PD
> I've always enjoyed "Charly's" famous punctuation test from the novel > "Flowers For Algernon": > > "That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is". The goal is to > properly punctuate that string of words so that it makes sense. G=EMC^2 Glazier - 22 Jul 2005 23:31 GMT PD Having three dimensions in the macro realm is so nice and simple. Thinking of curled up tiny dimensions only can give us a headache. Witten who does not get a headache recently took away three of these string dimensions so its now down to four. He claimed some were just copies. Space with its ultramicroscopic properties can't be probed. QM has quantum foam,and it is said only the string theory can give answers to this tiny ,but violent foam. Go figure I just blew the foam off my Bud I wonder if I created a universe in the sub micro Planck area. Beert
Uncle Al - 20 Jul 2005 22:35 GMT > Mr Know Ed Witten gives the String Theory great credibility as well as > Brian Greene. Years ago John Schwarz,and Joel Scherk wrote well [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > computer programming,and be more like a virtual particle. Like the > virtual photons we use to show how magnets attract. Bert You play with others better when you are off the bottle.
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 21 Jul 2005 05:21 GMT Hi Uncle-Al Not sure but I'll take that as a compliment. I have sad eyebrows today so I'm reaching for anything to cheer me up. Bert
Sam Wormley - 21 Jul 2005 00:49 GMT > Mr Know Ed Witten gives the String Theory great credibility... Credibility will come if and only if string theory makes preditions, testable predictions, that are varified empirically! End of story!
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 21 Jul 2005 05:45 GMT Hi Sam Well that is what John Schwarz did in his well received papers papers in 1972. His prediction was the string theory could describe the force of gravity. He used the tension in the string(or of the string) as related to the force of gravity in the microscopic realm. Very big number in very tiny area(or should I say dimension) Schwarz was using this gravity string force,much like the better understood gluon force we use for quarks at this time. Strings for gravity has to appeal to me because the search for the source of gravity is the driving force,and heart of my scientific thinking. My quest. Bert
Sam Wormley - 21 Jul 2005 06:31 GMT > Hi Sam Well that is what John Schwarz did in his well received papers > papers in 1972. His prediction was the string theory could describe the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because the search for the source of gravity is the driving force,and > heart of my scientific thinking. My quest. Bert Gravity is accounted for by GTR
String theory has *not* one testable prediction to its credit. Not one!
Are you on the sauce, Herb?
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 21 Jul 2005 15:43 GMT Hi Sam I'm just on Bud light. Same as Witten,and Greene no sauce is needed. Don't need much more than a good brain to know the heart of string theory. It in reality uses one dimension filaments "called strings" to take the place of zero-dimensional point particles. I can live with that Bert
Uncle Al - 20 Jul 2005 22:26 GMT [snip]
> There was an excellent 3 part TV documentary broadcast about 6 months ago on > the American PBS network...part of their excellent "Nova" series. If anyone [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'll leave it at that for now. Comments and contributions are of course > invited. Kooks & cranks will be shot on sight...metaphorically of course. Support evolution - shoot back.
String theory has no empirically falsifiable predictions, not a one. It has at least 10^300 satisfactory vacuum solutions, though some folks are starting to quote 10^500. Ed Witten is a most exceedingly clever fellow, but he and the boys and girls have so far assembled naught but self-consistent mathematics (useful as duals) and philosophy. M-theory is no closer to being science that Stephen Wolfram's cellular automata.
We've got a great set of socket wrenchs. Nobody can imagine what kind of nut they fit.
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Mr. Knowitall - 20 Jul 2005 22:44 GMT > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > We've got a great set of socket wrenchs. Nobody can imagine what kind > of nut they fit. If you say so, I guess it *must* be true. Is that how it works?
T Wake - 20 Jul 2005 23:13 GMT > String theory has no empirically falsifiable predictions, not a one. > It has at least 10^300 satisfactory vacuum solutions, though some > folks are starting to quote 10^500. This neatly summarises the "issues" I have with my limited contact with string theory. However, it seems a "popular" theory.
Is the lack of our experimental equipment a good enough reason to dismiss a theory? Is it acceptable to say that if we had XYZ we could falsify this therefore the theory is scientific?
Uncle Al - 21 Jul 2005 00:18 GMT > > String theory has no empirically falsifiable predictions, not a one. > > It has at least 10^300 satisfactory vacuum solutions, though some [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > theory? Is it acceptable to say that if we had XYZ we could falsify this > therefore the theory is scientific? If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That dates back 420 years to Galileo.
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
T Wake - 21 Jul 2005 00:28 GMT >> > String theory has no empirically falsifiable predictions, not a one. >> > It has at least 10^300 satisfactory vacuum solutions, though some [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That > dates back 420 years to Galileo. I am sure I remember the theoretical experiment being allowable. Otherwise there is lots of "non-science" that is (and was) treated as science until the experimental equipment caught up with it.
I do think its a difficult area though. I am far from being in support of string theory as science, let alone a valid theory.
Robert Kolker - 21 Jul 2005 02:21 GMT > If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That > dates back 420 years to Galileo. The principle of falsification was somewhat formulated by C.S. Peirce and clearly stated by Popper. Prior to these thinkers it was held that experiments verify a theory.
Physicists held onto the notion of aether without a clear notion of how to falsify it. Some believed aether was a priori necessary for any kind of wave to propagate in space.
Bob Kolker
Math Freak - 21 Jul 2005 15:15 GMT >> If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That >> dates back 420 years to Galileo. > > The principle of falsification was somewhat formulated by C.S. Peirce > and clearly stated by Popper. Prior to these thinkers it was held that > experiments verify a theory. And where did Popper get it from? Tribal little minds don't go around "educating" others.
"Alhazen's "Optics" (written from 1015 to 1021) is possibly the earliest work to use the scientific method. The ancient Greeks believed that truth was determined by the logic and beauty of reasoning; experiment was used as a demonstration. Alhazen used the results of experiments to test theories. The "emission" theory of light had been supported by Euclid and Ptolemy. This theory postulated that sight worked by the eye emitting light." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen
 Signature "ozre badtar az gonAh."
Gregory L. Hansen - 21 Jul 2005 15:46 GMT >>> If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That >>> dates back 420 years to Galileo. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And where did Popper get it from? From C.S. Peirce?
>Tribal little minds >don't go around "educating" others. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >experiment was used as a demonstration. Alhazen used >the results of experiments to test theories. The Test theories to determine whether they were true. Popper asserted that it's impossible to prove that a theory is true-- a theory can be validated but not verified.
 Signature "Yes, I revere you much, honored ones, and wish to fart in response." -- Aristophanes, Clouds
Bob Cain - 25 Jul 2005 19:39 GMT >>>If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That >>>dates back 420 years to Galileo. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And where did Popper get it from? Tribal little minds > don't go around "educating" others. Some minds occasionally have original thoughts. For some reason, Jews seem to be better at that than others.
Bob
 Signature
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
Mike - 21 Jul 2005 23:41 GMT > > If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That > > dates back 420 years to Galileo. > > The principle of falsification was somewhat formulated by C.S. Peirce > and clearly stated by Popper. Prior to these thinkers it was held that > experiments verify a theory.
> Physicists held onto the notion of aether without a clear notion of how > to falsify it. Some believed aether was a priori necessary for any kind > of wave to propagate in space. and there are idiots these days that think aether was falsified and gravitational energy propagates in empty space without needing any sort of a carrier. The obvious need for a carrier of gravitational energy, such as that emitted by binary stars, leads to the unavoidable postulation that the space-time manifold of GR is a substance of some kind. There, your GR is gloriously falsified. That is unless you will hide your little tiny petite pocito head in the sand and think everything is ok.
Mike
> Bob Kolker Bob Cain - 25 Jul 2005 19:36 GMT > If ti cannot be tested for falsification then it isn't science. That > dates back 420 years to Galileo. It dates back about 55 years to Popper.
Bob
 Signature
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu - 21 Jul 2005 04:04 GMT >> String theory has no empirically falsifiable predictions, not a one. >> It has at least 10^300 satisfactory vacuum solutions, though some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Is the lack of our experimental equipment a good enough reason to dismiss a >theory? Not to dismiss, but to cut out the hype. You know, all the claims along the lines of "the great new thing in physics", "the physics of the 21th century" etc. It may be these things, then again, it may be not. If and when the chiken hatch, then we can count them.
>Is it acceptable to say that if we had XYZ we could falsify this >therefore the theory is scientific? You may say this, but it doesn't change the fact that at the moment the above cannot be done.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
T Wake - 21 Jul 2005 04:44 GMT > Not to dismiss, but to cut out the hype. You know, all the claims > along the lines of "the great new thing in physics", "the physics of > the 21th century" etc. It may be these things, then again, it may be > not. If and when the chiken hatch, then we can count them. Very true. However without some method of saying "it is scientific despite the lack of ability to falisify yet" seriously limits the discussion of events close to the "big bang."
Take the development of higher energy colliders for instance, this allows research which was previously impossible therefore wasnt "scientific" in the strictest sense but is scientific now. This may be a minority viewpoint but I think that a theory which makes predictions that are potentially falisifiable is worthy of thought, discussion etc.
One point I feel I should make now - there is a difference between scientific and true or correct.
>>Is it acceptable to say that if we had XYZ we could falsify this >>therefore the theory is scientific? >> > You may say this, but it doesn't change the fact that at the moment > the above cannot be done. But it does identify a theory as at least being scientific (potentially falsifiable) and worth keeping - as opposed to more blatantly crackpot theories which crop up throughout the newsgroups (for example).
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu - 21 Jul 2005 10:11 GMT >> Not to dismiss, but to cut out the hype. You know, all the claims >> along the lines of "the great new thing in physics", "the physics of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the lack of ability to falisify yet" seriously limits the discussion of >events close to the "big bang." Well, the discussion of events close to the big bang is based on possible consequences of such events which are observable nowadays (such as the cosmic background radiation). Without such you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Note that such consequences do not constitute a proof, absent a proof for uniqueness. A -> B doesn't imply B -> A unless you also have |A -> |B (with | standing for "not"). But we don't ask for proof, only for plausability. With this said ...
>Take the development of higher energy colliders for instance, this allows >research which was previously impossible therefore wasnt "scientific" in the >strictest sense but is scientific now. This may be a minority viewpoint but >I think that a theory which makes predictions that are potentially >falisifiable is worthy of thought, discussion etc. There is a gray area here, with a continuous gradation. Taking the colliders example, we're talking about research which, while impossible prior to the construction of the given collider, is "within reach". You can, roughly, think about the following gradation:
1) Theories already confirmed by existing data. 2) Hypotheses which may be studied using existing technology. 3) Hypotheses which may be studied using obvious extensions of existing technology. 4) Hypotheses which may be studied using possible extensions of existing technology. 5) Hypotheses which may be studied using means the existence of which have not been ruled out by existing knowledge. 6) Hypotheses which cannot be studied by any means we can imagine.
Others may add some more steps here, but this should suffice to illustrate that there is a gradation here and the interest in a given hypothesis may depend on where you're along this spectrum.
And, there is the point of "interest" period. To illustrate, let me introduce an enormously simplified example, involving a theory which already has been falsified (Newtonian mechanics) and this only in one dimension, as well. Suppose I suggest replacing
F = ma with F = M(1 - exp(-am/M))
Where M is some truly humongous mass, of the order of a mass of a galaxy or a galaxy cluster. Note that for "small" masses where a star or planet is still very small on this scale, the results of this will be indistinguishable from plain F = ma. You'll have to go to some really enormous masses before you've a chance to begin verifying or falsifying this. so, is it worthy of thought or discussion?
The point here is that given any function f(x) it is possible to find an infinity of functions F(x,y) such the the limit, where y goes to 0, of F(x,y) is f(x). And that's before we talk about functions like F(x,y,z), F(x, y,z,w) etc. So, in short, given an arbitrary function f(x) one can find an infinity of functions of x and additional variables so that their limit is f(x). And, similarly, given eny exotent theory, one can construct an infinity of "extensions" of siad theories, depending on some additional variables, such that in an appropriate limit of said additional variables said theory is recovered. So, are *all* of these worthy of thought and discussion? Well, that would require an infinite scientific personnel with and infinite research budget. Not that I've something against it, mind you, but hey, lets be practical:-)
Science is a human endevour and as such it has to work within the constraints of finite resources and manpower. Thus, it cannot pursue the (infinite) number of potential paths. One can argue which specific path is worth putuing but ultimately it is limited to two classes of hypotheses:
1) Those which are "nearly within reach", so that if they prove to be fruitless, at least the waste of resouces is moderate.
2) The ones which, while not within easy reach, offer enormous rewards in case they happen to work, in terms of resolving existing fundamental difficulties. It is my understanding (which you shouldn't take too seriously since, being and experimentalist I'm not privy to lotts of the details) that string theory belongs to this category.
If something fits neither of these two categories, based on current knowledge, then, again based on current knowledge, It is not worh pusuing, at present.
>One point I feel I should make now - there is a difference between >scientific and true or correct. Of course.
>>>Is it acceptable to say that if we had XYZ we could falsify this >>>therefore the theory is scientific? Well, sure, you can say it. That defines as "scientific" any theory which hasn't already been falsified. Perfectly legitimate but you still cannot pursue them all.
>> You may say this, but it doesn't change the fact that at the moment >> the above cannot be done. > >But it does identify a theory as at least being scientific (potentially >falsifiable) and worth keeping - as opposed to more blatantly crackpot >theories which crop up throughout the newsgroups (for example). Can't argue with this, of course.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Mike - 21 Jul 2005 15:50 GMT [snip]
> The point here is that given any function f(x) it is possible to find > an infinity of functions F(x,y) such the the limit, where y goes to 0, > of F(x,y) is f(x). And that's before we talk about functions like > F(x,y,z), F(x, y,z,w) etc. So, in short, given an arbitrary function > f(x) one can find an infinity of functions of x and additional > variables so that their limit is f(x). [snip]
This is exactly what Einstein did. That is the reason is an infinite number of compensatory theories all making the same predictions as relativity (SR and/or GR). Of course, SR/GR are the most elegant in the math sense but again, who said the universe is a fasjion victim?
Mike
> Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, > meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" hanson - 22 Jul 2005 18:36 GMT >> The point here is that given any function f(x) it is possible to find >> an infinity of functions F(x,y) such the the limit, where y goes to 0, >> of F(x,y) is f(x). And that's before we talk about functions like >> F(x,y,z), F(x, y,z,w) etc. So, in short, given an arbitrary function >> f(x) one can find an infinity of functions of x and additional >> variables so that their limit is f(x). "Mike" <eleatis@yahoo.gr> wrote >
> This is exactly what Einstein did. That is the reason is an infinite > number of compensatory theories all making the same predictions as > relativity (SR and/or GR). Of course, SR/GR are the most elegant in the > math sense but again, who said the universe is a fasjion victim? > Mike [hanson] I like your take, Mike, as long as "fasjion" means "fashion". But then, of course, any and all theories are just anthropic fashion statements, heuristic views and stories that attempt to describe states/event/processes in nature and at the very best (rarely) do predict the out come of a carefully arranged experiment... to justify the story's veracity/validity & existence... AHAHAHAHA.... ahaha... ahahahanson
Gregory L. Hansen - 21 Jul 2005 15:25 GMT >> Not to dismiss, but to cut out the hype. You know, all the claims >> along the lines of "the great new thing in physics", "the physics of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I think that a theory which makes predictions that are potentially >falisifiable is worthy of thought, discussion etc. What is the strictest sense of scientific? A success story appreciated after the dust has settled and we read about it in the popular press?
Around here, some of the... how shall I put it... Defenders of the Orthodoxy are a little too zealous in applying criteria of science that wouldn't have passed some of the great scientific achievements of our time. Was general relativity pseudoscience before Eddington's expedition? Was there anything scientific about a Bose-Einstein condensate before 1995?
The practice of science includes both observation and theory. It's a creative and speculative practice, it can't be reduced to a recipie. A theory without an observation is no less scientific than an observation without a theory (with some qualifications). Philosophers can write about what they think science should be, but there's a lot of truth to the flip definition that science is what scientists do. And scientists don't always let their experimental equipment limit their theories.
So what is the difference between science and pseudoscience? Not falsifiability. "The computer you're typing on is proof of Atlantean technology." "If the Sun rises tomorrow, that will be proof that God loves us and keeps the Universe in motion." Part of the difference is the chain of reasoning connecting purported causes and effects. But that's been pretty hard for the philosophers to nail down and explain. But some how we just know pseudoscience when we see it on a case by case basis.
>One point I feel I should make now - there is a difference between >scientific and true or correct. True and correct.
 Signature "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
Schoenfeld - 21 Jul 2005 08:58 GMT > M-theory is no closer to being science that Stephen > Wolfram's cellular automata. Whilst most of what you said is accurate, I wouldn't credit Wolfram with the invention of cellular automata and I wouldn't say that cellular automata claims to be a science (other than a mathematical one).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automata#History_of_cellular_automata
tj Frazir - 23 Jul 2005 04:00 GMT Its f.cking stupid. The string idiots DONT UNDERSTAND quantom physics. They dont know anything. OUT THE WINDOW BEFOR YOU CAN TURN ON THE LIGHTS.
Strings dont conduct HA EH AH
T Wake - 23 Jul 2005 11:52 GMT > nothing I see your medication is wearing off.
tj Frazir - 23 Jul 2005 19:47 GMT I said string theory STOPS DEAD IN ITS TRACKS befor you can turn a light on. Strings dont conduct.
T Wake - 23 Jul 2005 21:46 GMT > gibberish What you say doesn't matter. You are a fool.
Quantum Mirror - 20 Jul 2005 22:40 GMT > I don't know if this topic has already been beaten to death here or not. If > so, maybe someone will be kind enough to advise me and we'll just let it [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > http://www.answers.com/string%20theory Here is a blog devoted to the shortcommings of string theory. The name is "Not even wrong" which is a good description of string theory in general.
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/blog/
ACE - 21 Jul 2005 00:36 GMT Subject: GRAVITY IS NOT A FORCE
PLANETS ORBIT THE SUN TO CONSERVE TOTAL ENERGY GRAVITATION IS NOT A FORCE BUT AN ILLUSION Copyright 1984-2005 Allen C. Goodrich
A planet or any mass such as the earth orbits the sun simply because it would require the gain or loss of a tremendous amount of energy to make it travel in any other orbit or path. But,why do we seem to be attracted to the earth by a force of gravity? That question is what this article will answer. .
SUMMARY OF PAST HISTORY: The precise measurements of planetary motion by Tycho Brahe (1546-1601) and observations by Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) were plotted by Johann Kepler (1571-1630 ) resulting in Kepler's Three laws: 1. The planets move about the sun in elliptical orbits with the sun as one focus of the ellipse. 2. The straight line joining the sun and a given planet sweeps out equal areas in equal intervals of time. 3. The square of the period of revolution of the planet about the sun is proportional to the cube of the mean distance from the sun. t^2 = K L^3 Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1721 ) concluded that it was a force F = mL/t^2 = k m_1 x m_2 /L^2 that caused the orbital motion.
Allen C. Goodrich defined the cause as a conservation of total energy. The concentration of the Kinetic Energy of mass increases as the Potential Energy of the universe decreases with the expansion of the universe at constant total energy. Planets orbit the sun in a state of equiliurium,where no change to total energy occurs. At Equilibrium the sum of kinetic and potential energies is a constant. A positive change of kinetic energy equals a negative change of potential energy. + delta m (2 pi L)^2/t^2 = - delta G (M-m)m / L . or Delta e (2 pi L)^2/t^2 = - Delta K e^2 / 4 pi E_o L. if a charge is present.
The mass of the human body, on the earrth's surface, is not in an equilibrium orbit. If a force ,such as the surface of the earth , was not present, the body would not stay where it is. IT TRIES TO MOVE TO AN EQUILIBRIUM ORBIT. No change of total energy. This force is what is felt to rqual gravitational force. A gravitational force is not needed in a state of orbital equilibrium.
Galileo demonstrated the effect of gravitational force. Newton assumed that a gravitational force between all masses pulled them together. Was this a correct assumption? Einstein and many other scientists felt that there must be more to gravitation than an attraction at a distance. Action at a distance was considered to be impossible in the absence of a transfer of energy at the speed of light.A change of kinetic energy is not always the result of a force. In an equilibrium system at constant total energy, kinetic energy can increase as potential energy decreases, with the total energy remaining constant..
Hubble then showed that the distant Galaxies were moving away from the earth and that the universe was expanding in all directions. If this is true , What else must be true?
1. The potential energy of the rest of the universe must be decreasing relative to the mass of the earth.
It has long been assumed that the first law of thermodynamics, which says that the total energy of the universe is a constant, was a fact of nature. If this is true what then?
2. The kinetic energy of the universe must be increasing at the same rate that the potential energy is decreasing as the universe expands.
How is this possible? Masses must be accelerating, because, kinetic energy is the result of an acceleration. 3. Orbital motion could then be the result of the expansion of the universe. The Gravitational illusion could be the result.
Based on the first law of thermodynamics The total mass energy of the universe is a constant. ((total kinetic (mass) energy plus total potential energy is a constant)). m is any mass say that of the earth. Planets, moons, and electrons are normally in equilibrium orbits where the total energy is constant. m(2 pi L)^2/t^2 + G(M-m)m/L+ X e(2 pi L)^2/t^2 + Z e^2/4 pi E_o L = a constant. (In the absence of a charge)
>From this equation the equation Delta m (2 pi L)^2 / t^2 = - Delta G (M-m)m/L follows mathematically. The earth orbit is a result of an energy equilibrium, ( the absence of a change of total energy ) and not the result of a force of gravity between masses. Force of gravity is the resulting illusion assumed by Newton to be a force.
If a planet (say earth) moved away from the sun its potential energy would decrease as L increased. Its kinetic energy would decrease because it is no longer accelerating toward the sun in orbital motion. Total energy would have to decrease. A very great change of total energy would have to take place.
POTENTIAL ENERGY = G(M-m)m/L KINETIC ENERGY = m(2 pi L)^2/t^2 m(2 pi L)^2/t^2 + G(M-m)m/L = A constant = M G= Gravitational constant; M = total energy of the universe (or effective universe) ; m = mass in question. t = time ; L = radial distance.
No mechanism exists for this to occur rapidly. So it could not happen. The magnitudes of kinetic and potential energies of planets and moons travelling in orbital motion are nearly equal and any increase or decrease of orbital distance L results in an equal change in magnitude of both.This is the only value of L where no change of total energy will occur if the value of L changes. At any other distance L, an increase of kinetic energy will be at a different rate than potential energy decreases. Orbital motion conserves total energy. Force of gravity isn't needed to explain orbital motion or any other motion at a distance.
GRAVITY MECHANICS AND RESEARCH ON ASTRONOMICAL OCEAN TIDES Copyright 1984 to 2002 Allen C. Goodrich
An examination of United States Coast and Geodetic Survey Tidal Data, which was gathered by extensive measurements over long periods of time,was compared with astronomical data showing the phases of the moon at corresponding times for many years. This correlation of the two sets of data revealed a very interesting fact, in a manner that had never before been mentioned in the literature. It is invariably and exactly the lowest tide that exists directly under the full and new moons at deep ocean ports.
TABULATED co-op.nos.noaa.gov and space.jpl.nasa.gov DATA: OCEAN TIDES AND PHASES OF THE MOON AT DEEP OCEAN PORT- MYRTLE BEACH LOWEST TIDE (YEARS 1992 AND 1993)
1992 FULL MOON---1992 NEW MOON (at moons highest point in the sky) DATE---TIME(std)-DATE---TIME(std) Mar.18--12:00Mid-Mar.3---12:00Noon Apr.17--12:00Mid-Apr.2---12:00Noon May.17--12:00Mid-May.2---12:00Noon Jun.15--12:00Mid-Jun.29--12:00Noon July.13-12:00Mid-July.29-12:00Noon Aug.12--12:00Mid-Aug.27--12:00Noon Sept.11-12:00Mid-Sept.26-12:00Noon Oct.11--12:00Mid-Oct.26--12:00Noon Nov.10--12:00Mid-Mov.25--12:00noon Dec.10--12:00Mid-Dec.25--12:00noon
1993 FULL MOON---1993 NEW MOON (at moons highest point in the sky) DATE---TIME(sdt)-DATE---TIME(sdt) Jan.8--12:00Mid--Jan.24-12:00Noon Feb.6--12:00Mid--Feb.21-12:00Noon Mar.8--12:00Mid--Mar.23-12:00Noon Apr.6--12:00Mid--Apr.21-12:00Noon May.6--12:00Mid--May.20-12:00Noon Jun.4--12:00Mid--Jun.19-12:00Noon July.3-12:00Mid--Juy.18-12:00Noon Aug.2--12:00Mid--Aug.17-12:00Noon Sep.1--12:00Mid--Sep.16-12:00Noon Sep.30-12:00MId--Oct.15-12:00Noon Oct.30-12:00Mid--Nov.14-12:00Noon Nov.29-12:00Mid--Dec.13-12:00Noon Dec.28-12:00Mid--Jan.12-12:00Noon
This was a very interesting discovery because current physics,based on the gravitational theory, discussed in the following U.S.Gov. documents: PREDICT THE OCEAN TIDES http://co-ops.nos.noaa.gov/restles1.html SEE PHASES OF THE MOON FROM EARTH http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/ ,would lead one to believe that,except for many possible reasons, the highest tides tend to be under the full and new moons. The dictionary and encyclopedia as well as physics texts predict this with pictures of the earth and oceans bulging on the side facing the full moon. Of course it never happens as the gravitational theory predicts, and many reasons are given for the discrepancies.
CONCLUSION: No discrepancies were found in the occurence of exactly the lowest tide directly under the full and new moons, at deep ocean ports. A lowest tide also occurs on the earth's ocean directly opposite to the new and full moons.
SIGNIFICANCE: One must admit that this is beyond question one of the most important discoveries of modern physics research. It indicates that a change must be made in the theory of gravitation. One can no longer assume that a force between the moon and the water of the earth's oceans, is causing the ocean tides. The force of gravity must be an illusion caused by some other, more basic, reason. What would this be? If the total energy ( kinetic and potential ) of the universe is assumed to be a constant,from this fundamental equation, many interesting things follow. If the rest of the universe is expanding ( potential energy decreasing) relative to masses, the masses must be shrinking ( increasing in kinetic energy ) (gravitation) relative to the rest of the universe.
THE FIRST LAW OF MOTION-(GOODRICH)
Copyright 1984 to 2002 ALLEN C. GOODRICH
A body (m) continues in a state of rest (equilibrium) or motion in a straight or curved line (equilibrium) as long as no change occurs in its total (kinetic and potential) energy, relative to the rest of the effective universe (M-m),
Delta m(2 pi L)^2/t^2 = - Delta K(M-m)m/L
equilibrium = no change in the total energy relative to the rest of the effective universe (M-m).
^ = to the power of. Orbital motion complies with this equation. This equation is derived from the fundamental equation of the universe which states that the total energy of the universe is a constant. The sum of kinetic and potential energies is a constant. m(2 pi L)^2/t^2 + K(M-m)m/L = A constant.
INERTIA AND MOMENTUM are the properties of a mass that evidence its reluctance to change its total energy, or it is its need to maintain a constant total energy. If it could more easily obtain or lose energy, it would have less inertia or momentum.
SEE THE UNIVERSE- A GRAND UNIFIED THEORY OF MASS ENERGY SPACE TIME FRAME MECHANICS-APPEARING IN NEWSLETTER "SPECTRUM" OF THE BUFFALO ASTRONOMICAL ASSOCIATION INC. NOV.1996 TO FEB.1997
:( CLICK BLACK AND BLUE PAGES BELOW ) http://ourworld.cs.com/gravitymechanic2/myhomepage/business.html FUNDAMENTAL EQUATION OF THE UNIVERSE http://ourworld.cs.com/gravitymechanic2/myhomepage/profile.html TIDES AND GRAVITY MECHANICS http://ourworld.cs.com/gravitymechanic2/myhomepage/resume.html
A new theory of gravitation is given, which predicted, stimulated the above research,and is consistent with, the new findings. The universe has been found to be expanding at an accelerating rate as predicted in 1984 by this new theory.
ELECTROMAGNETIC ,PHOTON AND CHARGE EFFECTS. ARE DEFINED IN THE FOLLOWING BOOK.-- THE UNIVERSE:--Allen C. Goodrich Copyright 1984 to 2005 Allen C. Goodrich FORCE OF GRAVITATION DOES NOT EXIST.
If One calculates the kinetic and potential energies of the planets relative to the rest of the effective universe, using the formulas kinetic energy = m(2 pi L )^2/t^2 and potential energy = -G(M-m) m/L, M is the gm mass of the sun and all planets; m ,L,and t are the gm mass, mean radial cm. distance, and orbital time in sec, of one of the planets. ( THIS IS THE ONLY CORRECT METHOD, it explains the T.R.Young-two slit interference pattern which involves the rest of the universe ). One will find that they are of nearly equal magnitude but opposite in sign. One will also find that their sum is a constant, the equilibrium energy for the particular planet.This is the energy that remains constant as the universe expands. its potintial energy continually decreasing and its kinetic energy continually increasing. Only at the orbital distance will a small change of kinetic energy equal an opposite change of potential energy.This is the total energy that requires no force , with its necessary acceleration and change of total energy, to maintain it as a constant.No force of gravity is necessary to explain the motion of the planets in the expanding universe. The planets motion around the center of the rest of the universe at the specific distance L is the equilibrium condition for constant total energy of the orbiting planet in the expanding universe.
THE SOLAR SAIL Copyright 1984 to 2005 Allen C. Goodrich
The Solar Sail, which is being tested by Russia and the United States, for possible propulsion in interstellar space travel, is additional evidence that no change of potential energy to kinetic energy of the photon takes place unless the potential energy is absorbed .The photon does not have mass ( kinetic energy). A change of direction of the photon's potential energy can occur at the reflective surface but no potential to kinetic energy change takes place there. A change of potential to kinetic energy takes place at the black absorption surface.which has the correct frequency response as well as direction and density (time ) in the expanding universe.This is evidence that the photon is potential not kinetic energy.The light photon does not have mass or kinetic energy.until the photon is absorbed by a mass of the correct frequency response as well as direction and density (time ), no potential to kinetic energy change can take place.in the expanding universe, in the absence of a mass..
T Wake - 21 Jul 2005 00:40 GMT > Subject: GRAVITY IS NOT A FORCE ><snip crap> Yawn.
Mr. Knowitall - 21 Jul 2005 00:47 GMT Gee...do you think maybe you could add a little more detail when you post something?
> Subject: GRAVITY IS NOT A FORCE > [quoted text clipped - 332 lines] > potential to kinetic energy change can take place.in the expanding > universe, in the absence of a mass.. Sam Wormley - 21 Jul 2005 01:07 GMT > Gee...do you think maybe you could add a little more detail when you post > something? Mr. Knowitall--Please don't reproduce spammer's garbage!
Mr. Knowitall - 21 Jul 2005 01:16 GMT >> Gee...do you think maybe you could add a little more detail when you post >> something? > > Mr. Knowitall--Please don't reproduce spammer's garbage! Mr. Wormley--Please get off my case! You are beginning to annoy me.
Llanzlan Klazmon - 21 Jul 2005 02:45 GMT >>> Gee...do you think maybe you could add a little more detail when you >>> post something? >> >> Mr. Knowitall--Please don't reproduce spammer's garbage! > > Mr. Wormley--Please get off my case! You are beginning to annoy me. ACE has repeatedly posted the same kook troll hundreds of times. It's SPAM. It's a good idea to snip such stuff otherwise you are just propagating it.
Klazmon.
Mr. Knowitall - 21 Jul 2005 03:06 GMT >>>> Gee...do you think maybe you could add a little more detail when you >>>> post something? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Klazmon. Understood. Sorry for the transgression. I'm still fairly new here and not totally familiar with everyone else yet. Now I know about ACE.
Bob Cain - 26 Jul 2005 06:38 GMT > Understood. Sorry for the transgression. I'm still fairly new here and not > totally familiar with everyone else yet. Now I know about ACE. Actually, what is prefered that you know about is voluminous quoting. :-)
Bob
 Signature
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 26 Jul 2005 14:10 GMT Hi Bob The simple fact is like GR and QM the final question can't be answered. In the string theory case ithe question is. What is pulling the strings?. Bert
markwh04@yahoo.com - 22 Jul 2005 00:01 GMT > I don't know if this topic has already been beaten to death here or not. If > so, maybe someone will be kind enough to advise me and we'll just let it > die. > > I'll leave it at that for now. Comments and contributions are of course > invited. Kooks & cranks will be shot on sight...metaphorically of course. It's a latter-day analogue of a Lorentzian version of something much simpler and more fundamental.
Right now, it's the only game in town giving you the 32-component structure the fermions actually have. None of the fundamental gauge groups (that is, the gauge groups called "simple") have representation families that, in any way, involve groups of 32. But it comes straight out of the 10-D & 11-D reps of the Dirac spinor.
It's the quantization of the 10-D and 11-D supersymmetry.
Supersymmetry, in turn, despite its disadvantage of being empirically nil so far, is almost rendered essentially necessary on consistency grounds alone by the Coleman-Mandula theorem; just to get a consistent description of what's already known; and it gives you a bull's eye tight fit on the running couplings. On foundational grounds, alone, it's also a necessity since otherwise you have half the Lagrangian of the field theory (the fermion part) sticking out like a sore thumb, coming from nowhere like a contrivance, while the rest (the bosons, the gauge part) fit real nicely within the Yang-Mills + Einstein field theory. With supersymmetry, fermions are brought under the Yang-Mills fold, as well (super Yang-Mills and supergravity) and you finally get a decent explanation of where the fermions fit in with everything else.
The 11-D issue comes from the fact that the symmetry group for the particles U(1) x SU(2) x SU(3) requires AT MINIMUM a 7-D symmetry space, which (combined with the 3+1-D of ordinary spacetime gives you the 11); but at the same time, supergravity AT MAXIMUM only works up to 11-D before spin 5/2, spin 3, etc. things start appearing -- and anything in the field theory higher than the spin 2 fields associated with gravity mess things up. Some recent papers toy with the notion of tacking on an extra dimension to the symmetry space and deriving the 11-D version as an effective field theory of the 12-D foundation.
M-theory is whatever results from quantizing the 11-D supergravity -- which is still an open issue.
|
|
|