South Dakota has 500,000 MW wind energy potential
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habshi - 17 May 2007 00:42 GMT This is more than 4 times what India produces in total electricity at the moment or half what the USA does , and wind energy can be set up within two years
excerpt But she and other panelists agreed the renewable portfolio standard could cut through some of the details and force more wind onto the grid. Sen. Tim Johnson and many other Democrats supported the idea during the 2005 energy bill debate. Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin supports the idea.
One proposal this time is to require 20 percent of the country's energy be renewable by 2030. That could mean up to 10,000 megawatts of wind energy capacity in South Dakota, said panelist Brian Parsons of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo.
That is enough to serve the equivalent of 3 million homes. It would represent a huge jump from the 44 megawatts of capacity the state has, but well short of its theoretical potential of more than 500,000 megawatts.
That potential is so large that, Parsons said, "It's probably not even worth getting to the point of quantifying it too much."
http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/NEWS/705150343/1001
Suzlon Energy was incorporated in the year 1995. It is India`s largest and worlds sixth largest wind-energy provider. Suzlon provides total solutions in Wind Power Generation with cohesive integration of consultancy, design, manufacturing, installation, operation and maintenance services. The products include the integrated service for the wind turbines and wind parks.
Suzlon developed some of the largest wind parks in Asia including the world`s largest wind park of its kind of over 200 MW capacity.
Shares of the company were last trading down Rs 77.85, or 6.22%, at Rs 1173.05 at the BSE. Total volume of shares traded was 170,186.(10.50 a.m, Tuesday
Finhead - 17 May 2007 04:48 GMT We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its Cows from farting, which causes global warming.
Romanise - 17 May 2007 14:13 GMT > We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its > Cows from farting, which causes global warming. Per person there must be 5 more cows raised in Europe as well as north and south america.
4 out of 5 of those may be getting raised for juicy steak, but untill they are slaughtered do they not fart?
Rich - 17 May 2007 15:07 GMT >> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its >> Cows from farting, which causes global warming. > > Per person there must be 5 more cows raised in Europe as well as north > and south america. I think the "Per person" metric is dishonest. The number of cows is what counts. Now are there more cows in India or Europe? I have no idea. But they do kill the cows here for food, whereas in India I understand that cows are sacred and that killing one will put you in very how water. Superficially it would seem possible that there are more cows in India.
> 4 out of 5 of those may be getting raised for juicy steak, but untill > they are slaughtered do they not fart? India also grows lots of rice, which produces methane, and has no greenhouse caps or limits under Kyoto, same as China. China will emit more CO2 than the US this very year. I don't have the figures for India, but they remain a major greenhouse gas producer without counting cow farts.
I just don't see the value of arguing irrelevancies, and the per-capita metric is completely irrelevant WRT greenhouse gas production and the greenhouse effect. It's the amount that counts.
Cheers
Rich
Gordon - 17 May 2007 22:13 GMT >> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its >> Cows from farting, which causes global warming. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >4 out of 5 of those may be getting raised for juicy steak, but untill >they are slaughtered do they not fart? No, ruminants don't fart as much as you seem to think. Horses and other non-ruminants including hominids do fart but ruminants belch. Either source does releases some CO2 & methane, if that is what you are concerned about.
But, if there were no cows or other ruminants to eat all that grass, it would just fall to the ground and be digested by soil bacteria...and they releaseCO2 & methane, too.
Unless we can figure out some means for disposing of a lot of the stuff ruminants eat, by burying it deeply where it will eventually be converted into petroleum or coal, that CO2 & methane is going to keep popping back into the atmosphere...like it always has.
Mishagam - 18 May 2007 01:47 GMT >>> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its >>> Cows from farting, which causes global warming. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > methane is going to keep popping back into the atmosphere...like > it always has. We have one good, natural (in the sense that it doesn't need extra efforts or any changes) reliable method to dispose a lot of stuff underground - cut trees, make paper, throw paper away and bury it in landfill. Done, paper (and so wood) is buried and will not produce CO2 for several hundred (or thousand) years.
Rich - 17 May 2007 17:37 GMT I wonder of the effects of large-scale wind energy production.
For one thing, clearly anyone downwind will be affected. I read of a lawsuit by one wind producer against another for just this not long ago. And as the winds shift, the downwind side will also shift. But I also wonder if this would affect wildlife and agriculture.
There are also problems with windmills killing birds, even endangered species, and they produce a low sound that can prevent people (and almost certainly wildlife) from sleeping even kilometers away.
They also tend to destroy scenic beauty, which could potentially affect the income of any vacation spots.
What are the effects of large scale wind power generation on the environment and surrounding populace? There are questions that the so-called green advocates (presumably worried about the environment and ecosystem) seem upset by when asked. I guess when they offer a solution, it's not up to discussion if it's a good or viable solution or not.
Also, no mention is made below of the fact that wind is intermittent. Would you be a satisfied customer if your refrigerator worked only when the wind is blowing? What is you got light only when the wind was blowing? Seems that because of it's intermittent nature power companies need to install the same capacity in conventional power (coal) for when the wind don't blow, so this solution really solves nothing, but you get to pay twice for the same power capacity.
It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary highs are like that, no wind, just heat.
There's certainly a lot of hot air WRT these issues, if only there was some way to harness the hot air from the advocates we'd have no need for 'solutions'.
Cheers
Rich
> This is more than 4 times what India produces in total > electricity at the moment or half what the USA does , and wind energy [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > 1173.05 at the BSE. Total volume of shares traded was 170,186.(10.50 > a.m, Tuesday Sam Wormley - 17 May 2007 18:40 GMT > It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during > a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary > highs are like that, no wind, just heat. See: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38270.pdf
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 17 May 2007 19:45 GMT > > It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during > > a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary > > highs are like that, no wind, just heat.
> See: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38270.pdf All very wonderful but what happens when a stationary high sits there for a week, which is not uncommon?
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Sam Wormley - 17 May 2007 22:36 GMT >>> It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during >>> a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > All very wonderful but what happens when a stationary high sits there > for a week, which is not uncommon? Energy is recovered until it is depleted which was better than nothing.
habshi - 02 Jun 2007 12:15 GMT excerpts Among the report's key findings, the United States is the fastest-growing wind market, with 2,454 megawatts added in 2006, though wind still only accounts for 1 percent of energy in the United States. While project costs are increasing, the cost of energy generated from wind is priced at or BELOW fossil fuel generated energy. The costs of projects are up primarily because of increasing demand and cost of turbines.
That's where the St. Mary's project provides a major opportunity. We can solve much of the wind problem with a simple technology called "pumped hydro storage." It would involve building two reservoirs connected by big pipe and putting power generating turbines in the pipe. When the wind is blowing and you don't need the power, use it to pump water from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir. When the wind isn't blowing and you need power, release the water from the upper reservoir and let it flow through power-generating turbines into the lower reservoir.
Pumped hydro storage is currently used all over the world. The Bath County Pumped Storage Station in Virginia can generate more than 2,000 megawatts. That is almost twice the average demand of all NorthWestern Energy customers combined. It has been operating since 1985.
tj Frazir - 03 Jun 2007 03:57 GMT They do it wrong for the size they make.
A railroad track is cheeper.
A 5 mile dia ring with the rails 40 feet apart and 200 foot tall sails evry 300 feet all the way around is cheeper then a windfarm. All the sails just sail in a circle 300 deg power..
buck for buck on that scale $ watt is 100 to 1.
habshi - 08 Oct 2007 23:23 GMT excerpts Spain have produced more electricity from wind power than from hydropower plants. US Department of Energy studies have concluded wind harvested in just three of the fifty U.S. states could provide enough electricity to power the entire nation, and that offshore wind farms could do the same job.[8] Wind power growth was estimated at up to 50% in the U.S. in 2006,[15] and has reached 11,603 MW of installed capacity for growth of 27% in one year.[16]
In recent years, the United States has added more wind energy to its grid than any other single country, and capacity is expected to grow by 3 gigawatts (3,000 megawatts) in 2007. Texas Cost per unit of energy produced was estimated in 2006 to be comparable to the cost of new generating capacity in the United States for coal and natural gas: wind cost was estimated at $55.80 per MWh, coal at $53.10/MWh and natural gas at $52.50.[ Wind's long-term theoretical potential is much greater than current world energy consumption. The most comprehensive study to date[45] found the potential of wind power on land and near-shore to be 72 TW (~54,000 Mtoe), or over five times the world's current energy use and 40 times the current electricity use. The potential takes into account only locations with Class 3 (mean annual wind speeds = 6.9 m/s at 80 m) or better wind regimes, which includes the locations suitable for low-cost (0.03–0.04 $/kWh) wind power generation and is in that sense conservative. It assumes 6 turbines per square km for 77 m diameter, 1.5 MW-turbines on roughly 13% of the total global land area (though that land would also be available for other compatible uses such as farming). The study also estimated the amount of global wind power that could be harvested at locations with suitably strong winds. The authors found that the locations with sustainable Class 3 winds could produce approximately 72 terawatts and that capturing even a fraction of that energy could provide the 1.6-1.8 terawatts that made up the world's electricity usage in the year 2000. A terawatt is 1 billion watts, a quantity of energy that would otherwise require more than 500 nuclear reactors or thousands of coal-burning plants. Converting as little as 20 percent of potential wind energy to electricity could satisfy the entirety of the world's energy demands, but the researchers caution that there are considerable practical barriers to reaping the wind's potential energy. A new global wind power map has quantified global wind power and may help planners place turbines in locations that can maximize power from the winds and provide widely available low-cost energy. After analyzing more than 8,000 wind speed measurements in an effort to identify the world's wind power potential for the first time, Cristina Archer and Mark Jacobson of Stanford University suggest that wind captured at specific locations, if even partially harnessed, can generate more than enough power to satisfy the world's energy demands. Their report will be published in May in the Journal of Geophysical Research-Atmospheres, a publication of the American Geophysical Union.
The researchers collected wind speed measurements from approximately 7,500 surface stations and another 500 balloon-launch stations to determine global wind speeds at 80 meters [300 feet] above the ground surface, which is the hub height of modern wind turbines. Using a new interpolation technique to estimate the wind speed at that elevation, the authors report that nearly 13 percent of the stations they reviewed experience winds with an average annual speed strong enough for power generation. They note that, based on their expectations of other global areas, an even greater percentage of locations would likely reach the 6.9 meters per second [15 miles per hour] wind speed considered strong enough to be economically feasible.
Such wind speeds at 80 meters, referred to as wind power Class 3, were found in every region of the world, although North America was found to have the greatest wind power potential. The researchers also found that some of the strongest winds were observed in Northern Europe, along the North Sea, while the southern tip of South America and the Australian island of Tasmania also recorded significant and sustained strong winds at the turbine blade height. In North America, the most consistent winds were found in the Great Lakes region and from ocean breezes along the eastern, western and southern coasts. Overall, the researchers calculated winds at 80 meters [300 feet] traveled over the ocean at approximately 8.6 meters per second and at nearly 4.5 meters per second over land [20 and 10 miles per hour, respectively].
"The main implication of this study is that wind, for low-cost wind energy, is more widely available than was previously recognized," Archer said. "The methodology in the paper can be utilized for several applications, such as determining elevated wind speeds in remote areas or to evaluate the benefits of distributed wind power."
Chief among those barriers is creating and maintaining a dense array of modern turbines that would be needed to harness the wind power. Some sources have suggested that millions of turbines would be needed to produce an acceptable level of energy and that alternative energy sources would still be necessary to produce power when the wind speeds fall below a certain threshold. Creating a large field of turbines could also be hazardous to birds and may produce unacceptable noise levels.
habshi - 04 Mar 2008 21:03 GMT This map shows that Germany , Dakotas , Greenland , Britain , Antarctica , Japan have great potential
http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 04 Mar 2008 23:35 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> This map shows that Germany , Dakotas , Greenland , Britain , > Antarctica , Japan have great potential
> http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
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habshi - 06 Mar 2008 00:26 GMT Also Somalia , Kenya , much of Sahara
http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 06 Mar 2008 01:05 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Also Somalia , Kenya , much of Sahara
> http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
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habshi - 20 Mar 2008 01:02 GMT Just as in sailing ships they use wind energy, can we not have an underwater sail to use the water wave and flow energy to propel a ship and why didnt anybody including Jim think of it before? Of course he will say cloth bends , but we could make it from carbon fibers.
excerpt “If you look strictly at the dollars and cents, it’s a long payback on the order of 20 years — that is a huge commitment.
“Looking at the realty market in California, where there is a lot of experience with solar power, the resale value of the house” goes up, Barney said.
“So the payback comes back at you almost instantly, if you really look at the big picture, not just at the reduction in your electric bill,” he added.
And homeowners need to calculate in the added advantage of incentives and tax credits, Kremer pointed out.
“What kind of industry would you rather support? It’s like buying organic produce from a local farmer, as opposed to[buying from] a giant” conglomerate, Nielson said.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 20 Mar 2008 02:05 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Just as in sailing ships they use wind energy, can we not have > an underwater sail to use the water wave and flow energy to propel a > ship and why didnt anybody including Jim think of it before? Because everyone with an education knows there are no waves underwater and damned little flow.
You are an idiot.
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habshi - 20 Mar 2008 01:02 GMT excerpt World wind power reaches 100,000 megawatts Posted: 04 Mar 2008
by Jonathan G. Dorn
Global installed wind power capacity will top 100,000 megawatts this month (March 2008) at current rates of growth. In 2007, wind power capacity increased by a record-breaking 20,000 mgws, bringing the world total to 94,100 mgws - enough to satisfy the residential electricity needs of 150 million people. Driven by concerns regarding climate change and energy security, one in every three countries now generates a portion of its electricity from wind, with 13 countries each exceeding 1,000 megawatts of installed wind electricity-generating capacity.
Global wind capacity, 1990-2007 (Gigawatts). Source: REN21 Renewables 2007 Global Status Report
In Europe, the 8,660 megawatts of wind power capacity added in 2007 accounted for 40 per cent of all new power installations. This marks the first year in history that wind power additions in Europe exceeded the additions of any other power source, including natural gas.
Europe’s installed capacity currently totals 57,100 megawatts, and its new installations in 2007 accounted for 43 per cent of total global installations. Wind-generated electricity now meets nearly 4 per cent of Europe’s electricity demand, enough to supply electricity to 90 million residents.
Germany leads
Germany is still the frontrunner in total installed wind power capacity, with 22,200 mgws, but in 2007 it lagged behind the United States, Spain, China, and India in terms of new capacity added. Growth in Germany is slowing because of a saturation of suitable onshore sites and a decrease in the feed-in tariff for wind power. Countrywide, Germany generates more than 7 per cent of its electricity from the wind. In the northern states of Saxony-Anhalt, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, and Schleswig-Holstein, wind meets an impressive 30 per cent of electricity needs.
Spain proved to be the shocker in the European market in 2007, installing 3,520 megawatts — the highest number ever in Europe in a single year. Spain now ranks third in total installed wind capacity with 15,100 megawatts. And with wind energy supplying 10 per cent of the country’s electricity, Spain is second only to Denmark in terms of percentage of electricity generated this way.
France also demonstrated impressive gains in 2007, increasing its total installed wind capacity by 57 per cent to 2,450 megawatts. The French government’s goal is to increase installed wind capacity to 25,000 megawatts by 2020.
For the third consecutive year, the United States led the world in new installations, with its 5,240 megawatts accounting for one-quarter of global installations in 2007. Installations in the fourth quarter of 2007 alone exceeded the figure for all of 2006, and the United States is on track to overtake Germany as the leader in installed wind power by the end of 2009.
Wind farms are now found in 34 states and total 16,800 megawatts. The electrical output from these farms is equivalent to that from 16 coal-fired power plants and is enough to power 4.5 million US homes. The recent exceptional growth in the United States is largely due to an extension of the wind production tax credit under the 2005 Energy Policy Act.
After passing California to become the leader in installed US wind power capacity in 2006, Texas maintained its lead in 2007 by expanding its total capacity to 4,360 megawatts. It is now planning the development of 23,000 megawatts of wind power capacity, enough to satisfy over half the residential electricity demand in the state.
Chinese target
India installed 1,730 megawatts of new wind power capacity in 2007. With total installed capacity reaching 8,000 megawatts, India retained its fourth place on the list of top wind power countries. But due to the lack of a national renewable energy law that establishes cohesive goals and provides economic incentives for Indian wind energy projects, China will likely overtake India in total installed wind power capacity in late 2008 or early 2009.
China installed 3,450 megawatts of wind capacity in 2007, a 156-percent increase over 2006. With 6,050 megawatts of total installed capacity at the end of 2007, China has already exceeded its recent 2010 goal of 5,000 megawatts. The more than 40 Chinese turbine manufacturers now operating supply 56 per cent of the Chinese market, up from 41 per cent in 2006.
The Renewable Energy Law (REL), which entered into force on January 1, 2006, is encouraging wind energy growth. The REL was established to help China meet its goal of generating 15 percent of the country’s energy from renewables by 2020. It mandates power producers to increase their ownership of non-hydro renewables to 3 per cent by 2010 and 8 per cent by 2020. While the government target for 2020 is 30,000 megawatts of wind power capacity, the Chinese Renewable Energy Industry Association projects that with a feed-in tariff and greater investment in offshore wind farms, wind power installations in China by then could exceed four times that target.
Offshore wind capacity accounts for almost 1,170 megawatts worldwide, roughly 1.2 percent of the 94,100 megawatts of installed capacity at the end of 2007; while this is a small share of the total, it is up from less than 0.3 percent in 2000. Denmark maintained its leadership position, with 426 megawatts of installed offshore wind power capacity, followed by the United Kingdom, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Finland. In 2008, the United Kingdom is expected to overtake Denmark for the top spot and Germany is poised to move into the top five. With more than 1,200 megawatts presently under construction worldwide, primarily in Europe, offshore wind capacity is expected to more than double by the end of 2009.
Every UK home
John Hutton, British Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise, and Regulatory Reform (BERR), says he wants to see 33,000 megawatts of offshore wind power by 2020, enough to meet the electrical needs of every home in Britain.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 20 Mar 2008 02:05 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> excerpt > World wind power reaches 100,000 megawatts > Posted: 04 Mar 2008 Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
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habshi - 21 Mar 2008 17:01 GMT Air is a medium and so is water. If a sail can be pushed by air , it can be pushed by water under the boat. And because water is much denser the sail could be a lot smaller. There are plenty of underwater currents eg gulf stream for the idea to work well.
excerpt wikipedia
Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean current, transporting about 1.4 petawatts of heat, equivalent to 100 times the world energy demand.[5] It transports water at a rate of 30 million cubic meters per second (30 sverdrups) through the Florida Straits. After it passes Cape Hatteras, this rate increases to 80 million cubic meters per second. The volume of the Gulf Stream dwarfs all rivers that empty into the Atlantic combined, which barely total 0.6 million cubic meters per second. It is weaker, however, than the Antarctic Circumpolar Current.
Typically, the Gulf Stream is 80–150 km wide and 800–1200 m deep. The current velocity is FASTEST near the surface, with the maximum speed typically about 2.5 m/s[6] (approx. 4.9 knots).
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 21 Mar 2008 17:45 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Air is a medium and so is water. If a sail can be pushed by > air , it can be pushed by water under the boat. And because water is > much denser the sail could be a lot smaller. There are plenty of > underwater currents eg gulf stream for the idea to work well. <snip>
> Typically, the Gulf Stream is 80?150 km wide and 800?1200 m deep. The > current velocity is FASTEST near the surface, with the maximum speed > typically about 2.5 m/s[6] (approx. 4.9 knots). 4.9 knots maximum isn't going to get you anywhere anytime soon.
Sailboats can go in directions other than just downwind because they have a keel.
You are an idiot as demonstrated by your own post.
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habshi - 21 Mar 2008 23:39 GMT >Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean current, transporting about 1.4 petawatts of heat, equivalent to 100 times the world energy demand<
So really the USA only needs to extract 0.5% of Gulf current energy to become energy independent forever.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 22 Mar 2008 02:55 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> >Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean > current, transporting about 1.4 petawatts of heat, equivalent to 100 > times the world energy demand<
> So really the USA only needs to extract 0.5% of Gulf current > energy to become energy independent forever. One word: Carnot
You are, and ever shall be, an idiot.
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habshi - 22 Mar 2008 12:22 GMT They put a turbine in the Hudson river in New York and they had to keep changing it for a more powerful one. The Gulf current has ten times the water flow of all rivers combined ! And you only need to extract less than 1% letting the fish keep the other 99% to make the USA energy independent !!
excerpt Corren's team installed its first two turbines in the East River in December. One has been delivering a maximum of 35 kilowatts of power to New York City, swiveling to generate power as the river swells with the high tides and empties with the low. The other turbine delivers performance data that Corren says will be crucial to refining the blades and gearbox, generator, and control system to optimize power generation.
This month Verdant added four more 35-kilowatt turbines. Corren says Verdant is now working on a next-generation design that will be cheaper to mass-produce, in anticipation of installing a farm of at least 100 turbines at the East River site.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 22 Mar 2008 19:15 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> They put a turbine in the Hudson river in New York and they > had to keep changing it for a more powerful one. > The Gulf current has ten times the water flow of all rivers > combined ! flow != velocity
You are still, and ever will be, an idiot.
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habshi - 21 Mar 2008 23:51 GMT Jim think about it . The Gulf stream has a bigger water flow ten times more than all the rivers flowing into the Atlantic , even including the Amazon and Mississipi and only America needs is 0.5% of that energy.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 22 Mar 2008 02:55 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Jim think about it . The Gulf stream has a bigger water flow > ten times more than all the rivers flowing into the Atlantic , even > including the Amazon and Mississipi and only America needs is 0.5% of > that energy. I thought about for .5 milliseconds, much longer than the idea deserves, and realized you are still an uneducatable idiot.
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dave.walters@comcast.net - 22 Mar 2008 13:25 GMT On Mar 21, 6:55 pm, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics habshi <hab...@anony.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Remove .spam.sux to reply. habshi doesn't get it, and never will. He thinks "energy denisity" is something that is irrelevant if you throw enough money at it. The reason these kinds of gimics, like the East River water turbines are limited is because of the density being so low and costs per KW being so high. This is the time of the rise of 'boutique' energy sources.
Not all are a bad idea, mind you, like the barrage proposals in England and Wales, for example, are real, positive contributions.
Nuclear is the only thing that can close a coal plant, kw-per-kw.
David
habshi - 23 Mar 2008 00:11 GMT >ike the East River water turbines are limited is because of the density being so low and costs per KW being so high.<
Nonsense . They are putting 100 turbines generating 35kw each or 3.5 MW enough for thousands of homes and that is just from a tiny part near New York. Thousands more can be put upstream. Rivers near the ocean dont flow any faster than the Gulf Stream , and the energy available from the Gulf stream is tens of millions times that of River Hudson. Its worth a trial.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 23 Mar 2008 03:05 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> >ike the East River water turbines are > limited is because of the density being so low and costs per KW being > so high.<
> Nonsense . They are putting 100 turbines generating 35kw each > or 3.5 MW enough for thousands of homes and that is just from a tiny > part near New York. Thousands more can be put upstream. > Rivers near the ocean dont flow any faster than the Gulf > Stream , and the energy available from the Gulf stream is tens of > millions times that of River Hudson. Its worth a trial. Yet more proof you are, and always shall be, an idiot.
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habshi - 30 Mar 2008 11:20 GMT excerpt Since the beginning of the decade the EU has added 47000 megawatts (MW) of new wind energy compared to just 9600 MW of coal and only 1200 MW of nuclear
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1980-05-01/The-Mehrkam-Wind-Turb ine.aspx
Spurred on by the obvious success of the four-blade design, Terry took the next logical step: He added yet another pair of airfoils to further reduce his machine's shaft speed and to make it even more productive at low windspeeds.
Again, his calculations proved correct . . . the new six-blade model not only ran smoothly—with a minimum of equipment stress and an easy-to-live-with 40decibel noise level output, as measured directly below the blades-but, even more important, charged in an unbelievably slight breeze. (After an initial 7MPH gust-which is what's required in order to get the machine rotating from a standstill-the Mehrkam windplant will continue to spin in air currents of as little as 2 MPH . . . with an effective charge being delivered in a 5-MPH wind. An 8MPH zephyr will produce as much as a kilowatt of power, and that figure is increased to between three and four kilowatts as windspeeds rise to 10-MPH.) Besides the fact that MEDC's equipment can produce usable power from very little wind independent of the public utility grid if desired the costperkilo-watt of such a system, installed, currently averages about $650 . . . with some installations ( those that are used exclusively to provide resistance heating and thus don't require inverters, batteries, or other power-conditioning equipment) running as low as $550 per kilowatt, all told. When you compare such figures with the $1,000 (and greater) cost per kilowatt of the average utility, wind-powered electricity looks pretty good . . . not to mention the fact that such a generating setup can earn federal tax credits, increase the value of the property it's on, be a worthwhile investment in itself, and sometimes enable its owner to sell excess power back to the local utility!
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 30 Mar 2008 16:55 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> excerpt > Since the beginning of the decade the EU has added 47000 megawatts > (MW) of new wind energy compared to just 9600 MW of coal and only 1200 > MW of nuclear The state of Texas put in a crap load of "wind energy", then the wind stopped and all the lights went out.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
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Dan Bloomquist - 30 Mar 2008 17:45 GMT > In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote: >> excerpt [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true "System operators curtailed power to interruptible customers to shave 1,100 megawatts of demand within 10 minutes, ERCOT said. Interruptible customers are generally large industrial customers who are paid to reduce power use when emergencies occur.
No other customers lost power during the emergency, ERCOT said. Interruptible customers were restored in about 90 minutes and the emergency was over in three hours." ***
http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/peak-natural-gas/529
And of course, the growth of LNG imports by the EIA is a gross exaggeration in this world.
habshi - 31 Mar 2008 00:15 GMT excerpt
Efficiency and Technical Myths
Myth: Power from wind turbines fluctuates so that there is the prospect of power outages and power spikes.
Fact: Under the National Electricity Code wind farms are not permitted to cause any adverse effects to the network that may cause power outages or spikes. Generating plants are not permitted to connect to the network unless it can be demonstrated that they will not harm the grid.
Myth: Wind power fluctuations would require additional coal-fired capacity to be brought on line to even out the flow of electricity. Or Most wind proponents' claims to greenhouse gas savings ignore the emissions of having another power station to back up windmills in case the wind drops.
Fact: Every kilowatt hour of energy generated by the wind in Australia, is a kilowatt hour NOT generated by other sources. The addition of wind generation up to about 20% of the total generation has no need for additional back-up as the National Electricity Market already has backup "spinning reserve" to meet sudden increases in demand. This reserve is generally provided by hydro and gas, which can be brought on-line much quicker than coal.
Myth: Wind power is inefficient.
Fact: Modern wind generators' efficiency of converting energy to electricity is about 45% -- this is the ratio of converting wind (a free, no emissions fuel) kinetic energy into electrical energy. By contrast, the efficiency of black coal plant is about 35%, and brown coal plant about 29%. Thus most of the energy stored in coal is lost in the generation and distribution process. Wind farms provide distributed generation, with the clean electricity consumed close to where it is generated. Furthermore, a wind turbine replaces all the energy used in its construction and installation (termed "embedded energy") in less than 6 months, and then generates clean energy for over 20 years.
Myth: Wind power causes massive problems with the grid, such as 'reactive power', 'capacity inefficiency', 'dynamic stability', 'inertia/frequency' and 'generation redundancy' which are very expensive to solve.
Fact: All electricity generation processes must consider the power quality and characteristics, and these are matters that are considered at the design stage to ensure grid managers and customers get a good supply from the system. Australia has high standards for its generators in this regard, and wind power plants on the grid meet or surpass these standards, otherwise the wind companies would not have been allowed a connection to the grid.
Myth: Wind energy is unreliable.
Fact: Wind energy varies, but its future output can be predicted ahead of time very well through specialized forecasting software linked to meteorological forecasting. No weather pattern hits the whole of the Australian continent at the same time, but rather a mix of weather patterns cover the country at any given time. Therefore, as more and more wind energy is connected to the grid there will be an increase in site diversity so there will be a smoothing effect on the input into the national electricity grid from wind farms. As grid interconnections between states become stronger, the overall input from wind farms to the grid will become increasingly steady, making it more and more comparable to other base load generators.
Myth: Wind energy generation is insignificant.
Fact: Wind energy is a new industry in Australia, and like everything else new, it starts small and then grows. The industry currently generates enough energy for 83,000 Australian homes. There is more than 2,800 megawatts of wind in planning, enough for over half a million households, and worth $5 billion in investment. In Denmark wind energy provides 20% of the country's electricity needs.
Myth: Australia needs more power and wind cannot keep up.
Fact: Australia's demand for power is increasing and if this generation comes from fossil fuels it will lead to more greenhouse gas emissions. Addressing this pressure requires ensuring that consumption is minimized through the use of cost effective energy efficient technology on the demand side, and through a low-emission generation mix on the supply side. For instance wind power, when used with gas and hydro, can provide a flexible supply to meet base-load and peak demand but with very low pollution. There is no shortage of wind and other renewable supplies in Australia, and there is massive room for the application of energy efficiency so that Australia's future power needs can be met in a cost effective and sustainable manner.
Planning Myths
Myth: Unfettered access to wind sites maximizes wind developer profits.
Fact: Wind farms are subject to planning processes the same as any other development. For example, Victoria's wind energy guidelines clearly state projects will not be approved on the basis of wind resources: "However planning approval is not granted on wind speeds alone. A wind farm developer will need to prepare an application that requires a number of steps to be completed for the wind energy facility to be assessed." Source: Victorian Wind Energy Policy and Planning Guidelines.
Myth: Ad-hoc planning policy favors developers and not communities.
Fact: Wind farm planning policy used to be more ad-hoc when developments were assessed and approved on a council-by-council basis. There are now clear planning policies in place in several states to guide developers, community, and government on the appropriate sitting of wind farms. In addition the Australian Wind Energy Association acted early by publishing its own Best Practice Guidelines for Grid Connected Wind Energy Projects in March 2002. This project was funded by the Commonwealth through the Australian Greenhouse Office.
Myth: Victorian Guidelines say a wind energy facility can be built anywhere in Victoria outside of a National Park.
Fact: The guidelines do not say this, anywhere. What they do say is: "Commercial wind energy developments will not be permitted on any land reserved under the National Parks Act (1975). Excluding wind energy development from land protected under the National Parks Act excludes wind energy facilities from approx 43% of the length of Victoria's coastline. It also excludes development from approx 32% of the area within 1km of the coast."
Myth: Wind farms are unpopular with their neighbors.
Fact: A recent Scottish Executive survey of more than 1,800 residents near wind farms found that their opinion of the sites became more positive after it became operational. It found high levels of acceptance and overwhelming support for wind power, with support strongest amongst those who lived closest to the wind farms. People are three times as likely to say that they feel that their local wind farm has had a generally positive impact on the area as they are to say it has had a negative impact. People living within 5 km of the local wind farm hold the most positive views, with 45% thinking the overall impact has been positive, and only 6% saying it has been negative. A majority (54%) would support an expansion of their local wind farm by half the number of turbines again, while one in ten is opposed (9%).
Economic Myths
Myth: Wind power is uneconomic, priced many times higher than that of conventional generation.
Fact: Wind energy costs about 7.5 cents per kilowatt hour to generate and costs continue to fall at around 4% per annum. The pool price of electricity is about 4 cents per kilowatt hour and this currently does not reflect environmental cost of the greenhouse emissions produced or even the cost of building new conventional power plants.
Myth: Wind power requires a massive consumer-funded subsidy to be viable.
Fact: Wind energy is just one of 23 renewable energy technologies (like hydro, solar and biomass) that operate under the Commonwealth Government's Mandatory Renewable Energy Target (MRET) initiative, a program designed to develop a renewable energy industry and cut greenhouse pollution. Wind is growing faster than other forms of clean energy (about 70% of new renewable energy projects are wind) in part because it is the most plentiful and economical option currently available. The MRET is a market scheme within the power sector with power consumers paying for the incremental cost of the cleaner energy, not the tax payer. (By way of comparison, fossil fuel generation receives an estimated $900 million in subsidies per year.)
Myth: Running a windmill at full pace for an hour reduces greenhouse gas emissions by one tonne at a cost of $77 compared to $15 by providing a broad based emissions trading scheme.
Fact: Energy efficiency and other measures provide low cost, but short term emissions reductions. To reduce greenhouse gas emission by over 60% as is called for by climate scientists and Environment Minister Kemp, clean energy uptake must be rapidly increased. Wind power provides the most environmentally benign and least cost of the solutions. To fully realize its contribution to the Australian economy, the industry must be built up in the short term to create local manufacturing and export capacity.
Myth: The public would not want to pay more for wind power.
Fact: Two recent polls demonstrate consistently high support for clean energy such as wind, even if it means paying more for electricity. A poll by Australian Research Group Pty and commissioned by AusWEA shows that 95% of respondents support the use of wind power, while 50% support the use of gas and just 21% support the use of new coal plant. 76% of respondents said they would be prepared to pay 5% more on their electricity bill if it meant that they would be purchasing 10% more clean energy. A separate poll (by News poll and commissioned by Greenpeace) found that 83% of Australians would be willing to pay $3.50 more on their monthly energy bills if it meant that 10% of Australia's electricity would come from new renewable sources by 2010.
Environmental Myths
Myth: Wind farms pose a serious threat to birds.
Fact: Any tall structure presents a risk to birds, but the threat from wind turbines is not only very small compared to other impacts, it is also one of the most intensively studied of all risks to birds. To put this risk into perspective, US bird experts Curry and Kerlinger have estimated that 100 million bird deaths a year can be attributed to domestic cats, compared to an estimated 5 to 10 thousand killed by turbines - meaning cats' risk to birds is at least 10,000 times greater than that posed by wind turbines in the US. The Exxon Valdez oil spill alone is estimated to have killed up to 500,000 birds. New research at several operational Australian wind farms indicates that risk to birds may be even less than first expected, and well below the predicted levels from models that were run as part of the approvals process. The research found not a single mortality for rare or significant bird species. All wind farm developments are accountable under the Commonwealth Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC).
Myth: 24 environmental organizations in the USA, including the Audubon Society, have called on the US Government for more controls on sitting of turbines due to 4-5 million bird kills; The US Fish and Wildlife Service estimated that turbines kill four to five million migratory birds every year.
Fact: Statements such as the above untruthful and misleading; the media release in question actually says: "The US Fish & Wildlife Service estimates that communication towers, such as those for cellular telephones, already kill between 4 and 5 million migratory birds each year." The release calls for the US Government to "assess the impact on migratory birds before more new permits are given to build wind turbines." This is already done in Australia. Furthermore, the (British) Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Europe's largest wildlife conservation charity with over a million members, takes the view that although wind turbines do present a risk to birds, it is site-specific and very small compared to other human activities and the risks presented by climate change. The Society actively encourages new wind farm developments by means of its own green energy product RSPB Energy.
Myth: Wind generators are noisy.
Fact: A conversation can be carried out at the base of a modern operating turbine without raising one's voice. A modern turbine at 350 meters is about as audible as the background noise of a quiet bedroom. Wind turbines produce a predominantly "whoosing" sound that has a far more natural characteristic than most sources of industrial noise.
Myth: Wind generators are detrimental to the landscape.
Fact: Open cut coal mines are permanent as are the emissions they produce. The effects of climate change will be permanent, causing the destruction of reefs, depleted alpine ecosystems, and damaged coastal ecosystems. Other major developments that regularly gain approval such as coastal subdivision and marina development impart permanent damage and loss of habitat. By contrast wind turbines cause very little permanent damage, occupying less than 2% of the land area within a given wind farm boundary. They can be dismantled after 20-25 years and the land returned to virtually its former state.
Tourism Myths
Myth: Wind farms will detract from tourism.
Fact: There is no evidence that wind farms negatively impact tourism in Australia. In fact there is ample anecdotal evidence that they may encourage tourism. The Windy Hill wind farm on the Atherton Tablelands (Queensland) was visited by approximately 30,000 cars in the first three months of operation, while the Codrington wind farm in Victoria currently attracts 50,000 visitors per year. An Aus pool survey conducted by Pacific Hydro on the Portland Wind Energy Project showed that 94% of Portland residents described wind generators as "interesting" and 74% as "graceful". In a separate survey, when asked if they would be more likely to visit the coast if there were wind farms in the area, 36% of Victorians surveyed said yes, 55% indicated that it would make no difference, while only 8% said they would be less likely to visit the area.
Furthermore, UK research done in 2002 found that 91% of visitors to a highly scenic area in Scotland said that local wind farms made no difference to the likelihood of them visiting the area. Twice as many people said the presence of wind farms would make them "more likely" to visit again than the amount who would be "less likely" to visit. The majority (80%) also said they would be interested in visiting a wind farm with a public visitor centre versus one in five "not interested".
Property Prices
Myth: Wind farms decrease property values.
Fact: An in-depth, government-funded study completed in the USA in 2003 shows that a view of a wind farm does not decrease, but may actually increase the value of a property. The study did a total of 30 analyses on ten projects and found that in twenty six of these analyses, property values in the affected view shed (defined as within 5 miles of the turbines) performed better than in the comparable community.
The only Australian study is an informal one on the Esperance wind farm at Salmon Beach, a premier Western Australia residential area. The residential area was built after the wind farm but still showed a strong trend of increasing house prices throughout the estate over the ensuing years. In fact, local residents complained at the proposal to decommission the wind farm at the end of its design life.
Bangladesh coastal areas of Cox’s Bazar, Khepupara, Tekhnaf, Patuakhali, Hill Districts and many river port areas have steady winds almost through the year excepting high monsoon. We understand that some areas of Bangladesh have
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 31 Mar 2008 01:25 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> excerpt
> Efficiency and Technical Myths
> Myth: Power from wind turbines fluctuates so that there is the > prospect of power outages and power spikes.
> Fact: Under the National Electricity Code wind farms are not permitted > to cause any adverse effects to the network that may cause power > outages or spikes. Generating plants are not permitted to connect to > the network unless it can be demonstrated that they will not harm the > grid. Tell that to Texas where the wind died causing the Texas grid operator to cut service to some large customers.
Not harming the grid doesn't mean the power stays on.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
Of course in your comic book world all that has to be done is make it illegal for the wind to die.
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habshi - 27 Apr 2008 22:49 GMT excerpt But Anil Kane, president of the World Wind Energy Association, said in terms of operating costs, which include fuel prices and maintenance, wind power is more competitive than other sources such as nuclear and solar.
It has been projected China's wind capacity could reach as high as 120,000MW, or equal to the capacity of five Three Gorges dams, by 2020 if the state reforms a subsidy system to give wind power larger premiums over coal.
habshi - 27 Apr 2008 22:49 GMT excerpt The 12.5 percent requirement translates into an investment of at least $12 billion in wind energy installations, according to the American Wind Energy Association, an industry trade group. Most of the wind farms would be in Ohio, a key to Strickland's desire for homegrown power sources, the association said.
A study last year by the advocacy group Environment Ohio found that if the state's utilities' use of wind power jumped to 20 percent by 2020, it would create the equivalent of 3,100 jobs and would put about $8.2 billion into Ohio's economy. Property owners also would profit by leasing their land for wind farms, the group said.
Renewable energy delivery systems could be made in abandoned factories, closed because of the slide in Ohio's manufacturing economy, Environment Ohio Director Erin Bowser said.
"We basically looked at what would happen if we met our need for electricity with wind energy rather than stay the course," Bowser said. "There already more than 100 companies based in Ohio that in some way, shape or form are creating (energy) jobs."
Ohio currently has just one working wind farm, which consists of four turbines in Bowling Green. It generates enough electricity to power 3,000 homes, the city says.
However, wind is on the move. Ohio becomes the 25th state, along with the District of Columbia, to enact mandatory renewable energy policies. Last year, wind generation accounted for 30 percent of all new generating capacity, with an investment of $9 billion, the association said. Wind trailed only natural gas as the leading source of new capacity.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 27 Apr 2008 23:25 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> excerpt > The 12.5 percent requirement translates into an investment of > at least $12 billion in wind energy installations, according to the > American Wind Energy Association, an industry trade group. Most of the > wind farms would be in Ohio, a key to Strickland's desire for > homegrown power sources, the association said. Translation: We want all the subsidies spent here.
> A study last year by the advocacy group Environment Ohio found that if > the state's utilities' use of wind power jumped to 20 percent by 2020, > it would create the equivalent of 3,100 jobs and would put about $8.2 > billion into Ohio's economy. Property owners also would profit by > leasing their land for wind farms, the group said. If all you do is put up the turbines and do a little maintenance now and then, what are these 3,100 jobs? People sweeping up the dead birds?
> Renewable energy delivery systems could be made in abandoned > factories, closed because of the slide in Ohio's manufacturing > economy, Environment Ohio Director Erin Bowser said. "Renewable energy", also known as electricity, is delivered by wires and distributed from transformers out in the open; no buildings needed.
It isn't packed in crates and shipped out on trucks.
Bunch of press release babble.
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habshi - 29 Apr 2008 00:09 GMT There is nothing wrong with subsidies eg NASA , beating Islamists etc. if it stimulates the development of new techonologies. Those who dont subsidize eg African countries their farmers end up starving . Those who do eg Europe , USA , their farmers and their citizens grow prosperous. Subsidizing production creates wealth , just ask China , subsidizing consumption eg Cuba creates misery. Jim before you argue as is your wont , collect some evidence to back your remarks.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 29 Apr 2008 01:05 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with subsidies eg NASA , beating > Islamists etc. if it stimulates the development of new techonologies. Those are fully government run organizations and a proper function of government. They are not subsidized.
You don't even know the meaning of the word.
> Those who dont subsidize eg African countries their farmers end up > starving . Those who do eg Europe , USA , their farmers and their > citizens grow prosperous. You do not grow prosperous through subsidies. You are only stealing money from one sector and redistributing it to another.
> Subsidizing production creates wealth , just ask China Yeah, ask China.
Government subsidies through bad loans to companies unable to make a profit has caused a huge Chinese debt that is basically unserviceable and a banking system on the verge of collapse. You are a babbling idiot as usual.
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habshi - 02 May 2008 00:15 GMT China in fact is taking over the world's manufacturing by burning over a billion tonnes of coal a year ,and sell the electricity to the factories for almost nothing , and they dont even have to buy health care , if that is not a subsidy then I am a monkey's uncle, which I am , but that is another story.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 02 May 2008 02:15 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> China in fact is taking over the world's manufacturing by > burning over a billion tonnes of coal a year ,and sell the electricity > to the factories for almost nothing , and they dont even have to buy > health care , if that is not a subsidy then I am a monkey's uncle, > which I am , but that is another story. China attempted to take over the world's manufacturing by providing loans through the government owned banks to unprofitable companies.
Since the companies were unprofitable, the loans weren't serviced and are defaulting.
The Chinese banks, and the entire Chinese economy since the government ultimately owns all the banks and bad loans, is on the verge of collapse.
In desperation, the government is trying to back out of the situation through various means, such as simply taking the bad loans off the books, but it may be too little too late.
A prime example of subsidies gone wild to the brink of disaster.
You are an idiot.
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habshi - 03 May 2008 01:01 GMT China has a trillion dollars of forex reserves and could buy up much of USA if it wanted to , USA has a trillion dollar deficit and is begging the Chinese to invest. Subsidies to production as the Chinese have done and Indians and EU did for agriculture , works wonders.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 03 May 2008 01:45 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> China has a trillion dollars of forex reserves and could buy > up much of USA if it wanted to , USA has a trillion dollar deficit and > is begging the Chinese to invest. Subsidies to production as the > Chinese have done and Indians and EU did for agriculture , works > wonders. Bad bank loans, which are backed by the Chinese government are at about $900 billion.
That doesn't include any other debt of any kind.
You know nothing about economics.
You are an idiot.
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habshi - 04 May 2008 10:57 GMT Actually that is less than the bad loans backed by US . Another own goal Jim!
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> China has a trillion dollars of forex reserves and could buy > up much of USA if it wanted to , USA has a trillion dollar deficit and > is begging the Chinese to invest. Subsidies to production as the > Chinese have done and Indians and EU did for agriculture , works > wonders. Bad bank loans, which are backed by the Chinese government are at about $900 billion.
That doesn't include any other debt of any kind.
You know nothing about economics.
You are an idiot.
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jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 04 May 2008 18:35 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Actually that is less than the bad loans backed by US . > Another own goal Jim! Wrong, but what would one expect from someone who knows nothing about economics, basic science, or anything outside the covers of a comic book?
China has a big problem with loans made to companies that are worthless and will be lucky to recover $.05 on each dollar loaned.
The US right now has a big problem with realestate loans where the current value of the property is less than the loan amount, but nowhere near worthless.
In addition to the business loans, China has the same problem with realestate loans, just not to the extent as the US.
You are an idiot.
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habshi - 05 May 2008 02:16 GMT Have a reality check US trade deficit - half a trillion dollars a year Chinese trade surplus - half a trillion a year. Soon the Chinese will start buying USA companies and shipping the high tech stuff to China
excerpt bloomberg.com China's trade surplus shrank for the first time in more than three years in the three months to March 31 from a year earlier, narrowing 11 percent to about $41.4 billion.(ie $480b a year) ......
Many of the most serious economic problems facing the U.S. today are the result of the trade deficits of the past 2½ decades which exploded from $96.2 billion in 1996 to $708 billion in 2007, equivalent to the output (value-added) of 6.4 million industrial workers. Nor are they disappearing. In February, 2008, the trade deficit amounted to $62.3 billion and the decline in manufacturing employment was 52,000.
The number who lost their factory jobs in the past twelve months was 300,000. The effects of the trade deficits include the collapse of the dollar, the decline of manufacturing and the consequent loss of millions of well-paid manufacturing jobs, stagnant wages and the worsening distribution of income, our sluggish economy, soaring oil and commodity prices, and volatile stock market and real estate market behavior.
It is a problem we are going to have to deal with. Because the trade deficits have gone on so long, there is no easy solution. Anything we do will incur heavy costs. Our solution, we believe, is the least costly.
Is it true that the trade deficits are really the cause of these problems? Let’s take a look.
1. The falling dollar. When we import more than we export, foreigners earn US dollars. Converting those dollars into their own currencies in the foreign exchange markets increases the supply of US dollars and causes the dollar to fall relative to other currencies. In 2000, a dollar was valued at 1.05 Euros; in 2008, it was valued at 0.64 Euros, a forty percent drop.
Some countries including China, Japan, and some oil-exporting countries do not sell their dollars in foreign exchange markets, which would lower the value of the dollar relative to other currencies but use them to buy U.S. Treasurys and other financial assets which results in no change in the value of the dollar relative
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 05 May 2008 03:15 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Have a reality check Have a reality check yourself.
The trade deficit has nothing to do with any previous post.
You couldn't tell the difference between a trade deficit and a cheese sandwich.
You are an idiot.
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habshi - 05 May 2008 11:28 GMT Fantastic photograph of a new memory chip with wires just 150 atoms wide ! Wonder how many atoms you have to go down to before they become fuzzy according to quantym mechanics? One thing that always puzzles me. How can there be more than one building block? If there are two for example then there must be something about them that is different ie their internal structure differs , due to what subcompnent , and so on ad infinitum , eg protons to quarks to rishons to what ?
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/05/02/science/050208-Sciencepix_2.html ... nytimes.com Also we MUST control populations , even the cia is beginning to become alarmed. My favourite author Asimov , wrote an article once. For each person on this planet , there are at least a million trillion cubic light years of space , and yet at just 2% growth a year , in less than 10,000 years it would be filled solid with humans! So we cant allow populations to grow at this rate. Flat rate welfare , converting all current aid from the west to say $25 per woman per month. Even covering just ten per cent of the populaiton would provide an incentive to others to have less than three. The white population in all of Europe is actually collapsing , Britain will be down to just 6m this century as women who can be so illogical are refusing to replace themselves , just 1.2 children per woman. .... excerpt 1. Muslims should give up Islam , all it brings is overpopulation and dependence on foreigners for food. 2. There must be flat rate welfare for small , less than three children families , so they can survive the coming famines as the Arabs price the oil too high for most to survive.
excerpt Wage can't earn two moderate meals a day Workers tell roundtable Staff Correspondent
The amount of wages for garment workers is so meagre that it becomes almost impossible for them to manage two moderate meals a day due to soaring prices of essentials, let alone taking care of health, grudges a garment worker.
“BGMEA (Bangladesh Garment Manufacturers and Exporters Association) said workers can visit doctors at its medical centres, but do we have any time to go to centres? Our work pressure is so heavy that we cannot even have some time for rest,” said Farzana, a garment worker with a decade's experience. excerpt Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, yesterday described three troublesome trends that distinguish this century from the last, and the exploding populations of poor places topped his list. Today, there are about 6.7 billion people sharing our planet. By midcentury, the best estimates point to a world population of more than 9 billion. Most of that growth will occur in countries least able to sustain it, a situation that will likely fuel instability and extremism, both in those areas and beyond. Many poor, already fragile states — where governance is difficult today — will grow rapidly. In Afghanistan, Liberia, Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the population is expected to triple by midcentury. The number He also stressed the significance of China’s emergence as a superpower: NYT in the last month or so has had two sober looks at Egypt which is by no means bad off in the developing realm. The first piece noted that many young adults were sliding into despair over their gloomy job prospects. Some were religion bound. The other noted that the average noise level around Cairo between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m. was 85 decibels. Sanity must be hard to come by.
Twenty one years ago I visited Cairo and quickly thought a better name would have been “Chaos”. They may have doubled their population since then.
daestrom - 29 Apr 2008 00:50 GMT > In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote: <snip>
>> A study last year by the advocacy group Environment Ohio found that if >> the state's utilities' use of wind power jumped to 20 percent by 2020, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > now and then, what are these 3,100 jobs? People sweeping up the > dead birds? This is probably the same nonsense we see a lot of here in NY. Someone wants to build something and the local politicians start pushing for it because "...it will bring 150 jobs into the area". What they fail to mention is those are *construction* jobs, not permanent staff!!! The permanent staff hired locally is less than 10.
But of course the builder wants a tax break or some other concessions to build here. And again, the politicians are willing to give them because, "...it will bring much-needed jobs into the area."
So, with the ground-breaking, we have a bunch of transient construction workers move into the area for 6 months to a year, then leave. We get a handful of permanent staffing jobs added to the economy, and the 'project' gets a nice low PILOT (Payment In Lieu Of Taxes) agreement for the next 10 to 20 years. The current taxpayers get to fund infrastructure improvements, and the property gets taken off the tax rolls for 10+ years.
Basically, the politicians give them a great break on property/income taxes for a long period of time for the 'benefit' of having some out of state construction workers live in the area for 6 months. And they get as much 'mileage' as they can out of this come election time, "I helped bring jobs to the area."
And the rest of us get stuck with ever rising property taxes because the 'project' doesn't pay taxes for >10 years. But all sorts of infrastructure improvements are made to entice this 'job-creating' project into the area and who gets stuck paying for them?
daestrom
P.S. And after 10 years, it suddenly isn't economical for them to pay the taxes so they leave the state and the cycle repeats itself.
P.P.S. No, I'm not bitter about this happening in NY, not at all, (NOT!!!)
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 29 Apr 2008 01:15 GMT In sci.physics daestrom <daestrom@no_spam_heretwcny.rr.com> wrote:
> > In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote: > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > now and then, what are these 3,100 jobs? People sweeping up the > > dead birds?
> This is probably the same nonsense we see a lot of here in NY. Someone > wants to build something and the local politicians start pushing for it > because "...it will bring 150 jobs into the area". What they fail to > mention is those are *construction* jobs, not permanent staff!!! The > permanent staff hired locally is less than 10.
> But of course the builder wants a tax break or some other concessions to > build here. And again, the politicians are willing to give them because, > "...it will bring much-needed jobs into the area."
> So, with the ground-breaking, we have a bunch of transient construction > workers move into the area for 6 months to a year, then leave. We get a > handful of permanent staffing jobs added to the economy, and the 'project' > gets a nice low PILOT (Payment In Lieu Of Taxes) agreement for the next 10 > to 20 years. The current taxpayers get to fund infrastructure improvements, > and the property gets taken off the tax rolls for 10+ years.
> Basically, the politicians give them a great break on property/income taxes > for a long period of time for the 'benefit' of having some out of state > construction workers live in the area for 6 months. And they get as much > 'mileage' as they can out of this come election time, "I helped bring jobs > to the area."
> And the rest of us get stuck with ever rising property taxes because the > 'project' doesn't pay taxes for >10 years. But all sorts of infrastructure > improvements are made to entice this 'job-creating' project into the area > and who gets stuck paying for them?
> daestrom
> P.S. And after 10 years, it suddenly isn't economical for them to pay the > taxes so they leave the state and the cycle repeats itself.
> P.P.S. No, I'm not bitter about this happening in NY, not at all, (NOT!!!) Could be worse.
Locally this huge plant to make throw away cigarette lighters was built.
It was so automatted it was like the Porkey Pig cartoon of the Acme factory. Trucks on one side unloaded material and on the other loaded product.
Inside were 3, yes three, full time workers including the janitor.
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nada - 30 Apr 2008 00:02 GMT The problem desipte all the fake "myth and fact" at the beginning of this thread is a major lie. that for ever KW of wind or solar, a KW of fossil doesn't get generated. How quaint. This would be true if those coal plants in Australia ever ONCE shutdown because there was too much wind and solar. But there is not. Not ONE wind mill in Oz ever shutdown a power plant. Netiher has a wind turbine in Europe.
Wind companies are far more honest about this. Clipper wind states on their wind site that 20 to 25% actual capacity is good. The rest of the time you keep boilers hot by burning coal...all the time. This is why economist see at most 25% of any grid wind power because it could make sense *building* fossil plants to back this up and follow load...but more than that you get a big time deminishing return as more and more fossil plants have to be built.
So...while the fact is that you can burn less coal the few times a day the sun shines or the wind blows, you need to keep burning coal to keep the power flowing "just in case".
Nuclear of course has none of these problems, but that's another thread.
energyfromthorium.com
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 30 Apr 2008 00:25 GMT In sci.physics nada <dwaltersMIA@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem desipte all the fake "myth and fact" at the beginning of > this thread is a major lie. that for ever KW of wind or solar, a KW of > fossil doesn't get generated. How quaint. This would be true if those > coal plants in Australia ever ONCE shutdown because there was too much > wind and solar. But there is not. Not ONE wind mill in Oz ever > shutdown a power plant. Netiher has a wind turbine in Europe.
> Wind companies are far more honest about this. Clipper wind states on > their wind site that 20 to 25% actual capacity is good. The rest of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > load...but more than that you get a big time deminishing return as > more and more fossil plants have to be built.
> So...while the fact is that you can burn less coal the few times a day > the sun shines or the wind blows, you need to keep burning coal to > keep the power flowing "just in case".
> Nuclear of course has none of these problems, but that's another > thread. Umm, no.
Having a nuclear plant at idle is an economic disaster.
The only type of generator that you can reasonably turn on and off with minimal economic consequence is a gas (as in natural gas) turbine.
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habshi - 27 Jul 2008 11:44 GMT Why not build funnels to channel the wind as in China below?
excerpt
He installed fins on cooling coils inside the freezer to increase efficiency and moved the condenser to the top of the building, where natural wind flow helped cool it. Within a year, he'd cut energy consumption by 30 percent.
Vagadia says the faulty blades have affected Suzlon's reputation and the company is working with customers to limit the damage. Suzlon has set aside $139 million to compensate customers for the cracked blades and now ships a stiffer product called V3, made of fiber-reinforced plastic, that hasn't broken.
Offshore Wind Farms
Projects worth $120 billion are stalled partly because of a shortage of construction ships and the soaring cost of steel used in the turbines. Repower's 5-megawatt turbine stands on a tower about 90 meters tall, holds blades that are 61.5 meters long and can only be serviced using a helicopter.
Material costs have driven up turbine prices about 20 percent since about July 2007.
In the U.S., public opposition to offshore wind farms that may obstruct panoramic views is such a big obstacle that none have been built. The Cape Wind project in Nantucket Sound off the coast of Massachusetts has been stymied by lawsuits. ... the vast natural wind tunnel that is Dabancheng, the gales that roar between the snow-capped mountain ridges get so strong that trains have been gusted off railway tracks and lorries overturned.
Such is the ferocity of the elements that police sometimes have to stop the traffic that passes through this arid, six-mile-wide plain on what was once part of the Silk Road. That used to be bad for business in Xinjiang, the most westerly region of China, which formerly depended on the trade route between central Asia and the densely populated cities in the far east.
Today, however, the gales themselves have become big business in Dabancheng. The area is home to one of Asia's biggest wind farms and a pioneer in a Chinese industry that is forecast to lead the world by the end of next year.
From the road, 118 giant turbines are visible miles before you reach them. Tourists stop for pictures, hair blowing as they pose near the whirring towers.
At the end of last year, China had 6 gigawatts of installed wind power generating capacity, covering 202 projects. Another 445 sites have been targeted for development in the near future - according to data from Azure International, a consultancy in Beijing.
We went inside one of the taller towers to a small room with computers controlling the direction of the 68-metre-high turbine. The sound of the whirring blades vibrated through the enclosed chamber as Li pointed to the readings: Wind speed 10.4km per hour (6.4mph), power generation 1,000 kilowatts.
"This is the future in China," said Li. "Everyone is opting for big turbines. It is more economic to have one 1,500 kw turbine than two 750kw turbines and the maintenance costs are lower."
But even this will soon be trumped. At Jiuquan in Gansu province, the ground has been broken for what could one day be the world's biggest wind farm.
Even the first phase - to be completed by 2010 - will add 3.8 gigawatts, more than the wind generating capacity of the entire country at the end of 2006. When the project is finished, it will be almost three times bigger and linked up to a "wind energy corridor" through Gansu which will be connected to an expanded national grid.
In addition to the current 6 gigawatts of generating capacity, Azure estimates that a staggering 130 gigawatts is in the pipeline in China.
Established turbine manufacturers continue to ramp up production even as new entrants try to squeeze their way into the market. If all of their plans are added together, China's new production capacity could surge to 11 gigawatts this year - almost three times the amount installed last year.
This year, the big five utilities are bleeding money because coal costs have been steadily rising. They cannot pass costs on to their customers because of government regulation of power prices.
Even so, wind energy produces a kilowatt-hour of electricity at about twice the cost of a Chinese coal-fired power plant. Even with the recent price rises, coal remains king in China. To meet the demands of the fast growing economy, power plants and factories burn 2bn tonnes of coal each year, about a third of the world's total.
This is why China has overtaken the US as the biggest emitter of greenhouse gases and it is unlikely to fall back to second place for decades.
BradGuth - 27 Jul 2008 18:46 GMT Mass produced wind turbines and all that's necessary is relatively dirt cheap at not 10% the all-inclusive and birth-to-grave cost of modern nuclear energy, and perhaps still a good forth the cost of going with the likes of those failsafe thorium reactors.
If folks can't independently think inside the box, then by all means forget about thinking the least bit outside the box.
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
> Why not build funnels to channel the wind as in China below? > [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > greenhouse gases and it is unlikely to fall back to second place for > decades. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 28 Jul 2008 18:45 GMT In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> Why not build funnels to channel the wind as in China below? No one built "funnels", you idiot, those are mountain passes.
Read this about the wonders of wind power:
"Thousands of homeowners may see the value of their properties plummet after a court ruled that living near a wind farm decreases house prices."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/07/26/eawind126.xml
Build a wind farm, make your home worthless.
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zzbunker@netscape.net - 29 Jul 2008 01:26 GMT On Jul 28, 1:45 pm, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics habshi <hab...@anony.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Build a wind farm, make your home worthless. But the way idiot courts rule about property value is why cruise missiles, computers, solar energy arrays, and robots were invented, So it propably only makes a difference to idiots stupid enough to live in New York anyway.
> -- > Jim Pennino > > Remove .spam.sux to reply. habshi - 29 Jul 2008 23:53 GMT Just as the efficient solar cells funnel the rays with mirrors towards the collectors , so we should be able to funnel wind towards the windmills. What about my flying matteresses ? If they could be stiff enough and be held at 45 degree angles , they could funnel wind towards the rotating blades. So they could be brought and held down when its still , and when its windy , these mattresses containing a partial vacuum would fly up the 100 meters to funnel the wind from any direction.
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