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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / July 2008



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South Dakota has 500,000 MW wind energy potential

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habshi - 17 May 2007 00:42 GMT
    This is more than 4 times what India produces in total
electricity at the moment or half what the USA does  , and wind energy
can be set up within two years

excerpt
But she and other panelists agreed the renewable portfolio standard
could cut through some of the details and force more wind onto the
grid. Sen. Tim Johnson and many other Democrats supported the idea
during the 2005 energy bill debate. Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin
supports the idea.

One proposal this time is to require 20 percent of the country's
energy be renewable by 2030. That could mean up to 10,000 megawatts of
wind energy capacity in South Dakota, said panelist Brian Parsons of
the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo.

That is enough to serve the equivalent of 3 million homes. It would
represent a huge jump from the 44 megawatts of capacity the state has,
but well short of its theoretical potential of more than 500,000
megawatts.

That potential is so large that, Parsons said, "It's probably not even
worth getting to the point of quantifying it too much."

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/NEWS/705150343/1001

Suzlon Energy was incorporated in the year 1995. It is India`s largest
and worlds sixth largest wind-energy provider. Suzlon provides total
solutions in Wind Power Generation with cohesive integration of
consultancy, design, manufacturing, installation, operation and
maintenance services. The products include the integrated service for
the wind turbines and wind parks.

Suzlon developed some of the largest wind parks in Asia including the
world`s largest wind park of its kind of over 200 MW capacity.

Shares of the company were last trading down Rs 77.85, or 6.22%, at Rs
1173.05 at the  BSE. Total volume of shares traded was 170,186.(10.50
a.m, Tuesday
Finhead - 17 May 2007 04:48 GMT
We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its
Cows from farting, which causes global warming.
Romanise - 17 May 2007 14:13 GMT
> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its
> Cows from farting, which causes global warming.

Per person there must be 5 more cows raised in Europe as well as north
and south america.

4 out of 5 of those may be getting raised for juicy steak, but untill
they are slaughtered do they not fart?
Rich - 17 May 2007 15:07 GMT
>> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its
>> Cows from farting, which causes global warming.
>
> Per person there must be 5 more cows raised in Europe as well as north
> and south america.

I think the "Per person" metric is dishonest. The number of cows is what counts.
Now are there more cows in India or Europe? I have no idea. But they do kill
the cows here for food, whereas in India I understand that cows are sacred and
that killing one will put you in very how water. Superficially it would seem
possible that there are more cows in India.

> 4 out of 5 of those may be getting raised for juicy steak, but untill
> they are slaughtered do they not fart?

India also grows lots of rice, which produces methane, and has no greenhouse
caps or limits under Kyoto, same as China. China will emit more CO2 than the
US this very year. I don't have the figures for India, but they remain a major
greenhouse gas producer without counting cow farts.

I just don't see the value of arguing irrelevancies, and the per-capita metric
is completely irrelevant WRT greenhouse gas production and the greenhouse
effect. It's the amount that counts.

Cheers

Rich
Gordon - 17 May 2007 22:13 GMT
>> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its
>> Cows from farting, which causes global warming.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>4 out of 5 of those may be getting raised for juicy steak, but untill
>they are slaughtered do they not fart?

No, ruminants don't fart as much as you seem to think. Horses and
other non-ruminants including hominids do fart but ruminants
belch. Either source does releases some CO2 & methane, if that is
what you are concerned about.

But, if there were no cows or other ruminants to eat all that
grass, it would just fall to the ground and be digested by soil
bacteria...and they releaseCO2 & methane, too.

Unless we can figure out some means for disposing of a lot of the
stuff ruminants eat, by burying it deeply where it will
eventually be converted into petroleum or coal, that CO2 &
methane is going to keep popping back into the atmosphere...like
it always has.
Mishagam - 18 May 2007 01:47 GMT
>>> We will make South Dakota all just energy producing IF India stops all its
>>> Cows from farting, which causes global warming.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> methane is going to keep popping back into the atmosphere...like
> it always has.
We have one good, natural (in the sense that it doesn't need extra
efforts or any changes) reliable method to dispose a lot of stuff
underground - cut trees, make paper, throw paper away and bury it in
landfill.
Done, paper (and so wood) is buried and will not produce CO2 for several
hundred (or thousand) years.
Rich - 17 May 2007 17:37 GMT
I wonder of the effects of large-scale wind energy production.

For one thing, clearly anyone downwind will be affected. I read
of a lawsuit by one wind producer against another for just this
not long ago. And as the winds shift, the downwind side will also
shift. But I also wonder if this would affect wildlife and
agriculture.

There are also problems with windmills killing birds, even
endangered species, and they produce a low sound that can prevent
people (and almost certainly wildlife) from sleeping even
kilometers away.

They also tend to destroy scenic beauty, which could potentially
affect the income of any vacation spots.

What are the effects of large scale wind power generation on the
environment and surrounding populace? There are questions that the
so-called green advocates (presumably worried about the environment
and ecosystem) seem upset by when asked. I guess when they offer
a solution, it's not up to discussion if it's a good or viable
solution or not.

Also, no mention is made below of the fact that wind is intermittent.
Would you be a satisfied customer if your refrigerator worked only
when the wind is blowing? What is you got light only when the wind
was blowing? Seems that because of it's intermittent nature power
companies need to install the same capacity in conventional power
(coal) for when the wind don't blow, so this solution really solves
nothing, but you get to pay twice for the same power capacity.

It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during
a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary
highs are like that, no wind, just heat.

There's certainly a lot of hot air WRT these issues, if only there
was some way to harness the hot air from the advocates we'd have
no need for 'solutions'.

Cheers

Rich

>     This is more than 4 times what India produces in total
> electricity at the moment or half what the USA does  , and wind energy
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> 1173.05 at the  BSE. Total volume of shares traded was 170,186.(10.50
> a.m, Tuesday
Sam Wormley - 17 May 2007 18:40 GMT
> It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during
> a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary
> highs are like that, no wind, just heat.

  See: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38270.pdf
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 17 May 2007 19:45 GMT
> > It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during
> > a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary
> > highs are like that, no wind, just heat.

>    See: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38270.pdf

All very wonderful but what happens when a stationary high sits there
for a week, which is not uncommon?

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Sam Wormley - 17 May 2007 22:36 GMT
>>> It's also interesting that when you need electricity the most, during
>>> a heat wave, you're unlikely to have any wind power. Stationary
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> All very wonderful but what happens when a stationary high sits there
> for a week, which is not uncommon?

  Energy is recovered until it is depleted which was better than nothing.
habshi - 02 Jun 2007 12:15 GMT
    excerpts
Among the report's key findings, the United States is the
fastest-growing wind market, with 2,454 megawatts added in 2006,
though wind still only accounts for 1 percent of energy in the United
States. While project costs are increasing, the cost of energy
generated from wind is priced at or BELOW  fossil fuel generated
energy. The costs of projects are up primarily because of increasing
demand and cost of turbines.

That's where the St. Mary's project provides a major opportunity. We
can solve much of the wind problem with a simple technology called
"pumped hydro storage." It would involve building two reservoirs
connected by big pipe and putting power generating turbines in the
pipe. When the wind is blowing and you don't need the power, use it to
pump water from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir. When the
wind isn't blowing and you need power, release the water from the
upper reservoir and let it flow through power-generating turbines into
the lower reservoir.

Pumped hydro storage is currently used all over the world. The Bath
County Pumped Storage Station in Virginia can generate more than 2,000
megawatts. That is almost twice the average demand of all NorthWestern
Energy customers combined. It has been operating since 1985.
tj Frazir - 03 Jun 2007 03:57 GMT
They do it wrong for the size they make.

A railroad track is cheeper.

A 5 mile dia ring with the rails 40 feet apart and 200 foot tall sails
evry 300 feet all the way around is cheeper then a windfarm.

All the sails just sail in a circle 300 deg power..

buck for buck on that scale $ watt is 100 to 1.
habshi - 08 Oct 2007 23:23 GMT
    excerpts
Spain have produced more electricity from wind power than from
hydropower plants. US Department of Energy studies have concluded wind
harvested in just three of the fifty U.S. states could provide enough
electricity to power the entire nation, and that offshore wind farms
could do the same job.[8] Wind power growth was estimated at up to 50%
in the U.S. in 2006,[15] and has reached 11,603 MW of installed
capacity for growth of 27% in one year.[16]

In recent years, the United States has added more wind energy to its
grid than any other single country, and capacity is expected to grow
by 3 gigawatts (3,000 megawatts) in 2007. Texas
Cost per unit of energy produced was estimated in 2006 to be
comparable to the cost of new generating capacity in the United States
for coal and natural gas: wind cost was estimated at $55.80 per MWh,
coal at $53.10/MWh and natural gas at $52.50.[
Wind's long-term theoretical potential is much greater than current
world energy consumption. The most comprehensive study to date[45]
found the potential of wind power on land and near-shore to be 72 TW
(~54,000 Mtoe), or over five times the world's current energy use and
40 times the current electricity use. The potential takes into account
only locations with Class 3 (mean annual wind speeds = 6.9 m/s at 80
m) or better wind regimes, which includes the locations suitable for
low-cost (0.03–0.04 $/kWh) wind power generation and is in that sense
conservative. It assumes 6 turbines per square km for 77 m diameter,
1.5 MW-turbines on roughly 13% of the total global land area (though
that land would also be available for other compatible uses such as
farming).
    The study also estimated the amount of global wind power that
could be harvested at locations with suitably strong winds. The
authors found that the locations with sustainable Class 3 winds could
produce approximately 72 terawatts and that capturing even a fraction
of that energy could provide the 1.6-1.8 terawatts that made up the
world's electricity usage in the year 2000. A terawatt is 1 billion
watts, a quantity of energy that would otherwise require more than 500
nuclear reactors or thousands of coal-burning plants. Converting as
little as 20 percent of potential wind energy to electricity could
satisfy the entirety of the world's energy demands, but the
researchers caution that there are considerable practical barriers to
reaping the wind's potential energy.
A new global wind power map has quantified global wind power and may
help planners place turbines in locations that can maximize power from
the winds and provide widely available low-cost energy. After
analyzing more than 8,000 wind speed measurements in an effort to
identify the world's wind power potential for the first time, Cristina
Archer and Mark Jacobson of Stanford University suggest that wind
captured at specific locations, if even partially harnessed, can
generate more than enough power to satisfy the world's energy demands.
Their report will be published in May in the Journal of Geophysical
Research-Atmospheres, a publication of the American Geophysical Union.

The researchers collected wind speed measurements from approximately
7,500 surface stations and another 500 balloon-launch stations to
determine global wind speeds at 80 meters [300 feet] above the ground
surface, which is the hub height of modern wind turbines. Using a new
interpolation technique to estimate the wind speed at that elevation,
the authors report that nearly 13 percent of the stations they
reviewed experience winds with an average annual speed strong enough
for power generation. They note that, based on their expectations of
other global areas, an even greater percentage of locations would
likely reach the 6.9 meters per second [15 miles per hour] wind speed
considered strong enough to be economically feasible.

Such wind speeds at 80 meters, referred to as wind power Class 3, were
found in every region of the world, although North America was found
to have the greatest wind power potential. The researchers also found
that some of the strongest winds were observed in Northern Europe,
along the North Sea, while the southern tip of South America and the
Australian island of Tasmania also recorded significant and sustained
strong winds at the turbine blade height. In North America, the most
consistent winds were found in the Great Lakes region and from ocean
breezes along the eastern, western and southern coasts. Overall, the
researchers calculated winds at 80 meters [300 feet] traveled over the
ocean at approximately 8.6 meters per second and at nearly 4.5 meters
per second over land [20 and 10 miles per hour, respectively].

"The main implication of this study is that wind, for low-cost wind
energy, is more widely available than was previously recognized,"
Archer said. "The methodology in the paper can be utilized for several
applications, such as determining elevated wind speeds in remote areas
or to evaluate the benefits of distributed wind power."

Chief among those barriers is creating and maintaining a dense array
of modern turbines that would be needed to harness the wind power.
Some sources have suggested that millions of turbines would be needed
to produce an acceptable level of energy and that alternative energy
sources would still be necessary to produce power when the wind speeds
fall below a certain threshold. Creating a large field of turbines
could also be hazardous to birds and may produce unacceptable noise
levels.
habshi - 04 Mar 2008 21:03 GMT
    This map shows that Germany , Dakotas , Greenland , Britain ,
Antarctica , Japan have great potential

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 04 Mar 2008 23:35 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         This map shows that Germany , Dakotas , Greenland , Britain ,
> Antarctica , Japan have great potential

> http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html

Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f
eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true


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habshi - 06 Mar 2008 00:26 GMT
    Also Somalia , Kenya , much of Sahara

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 06 Mar 2008 01:05 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Also Somalia , Kenya , much of Sahara

> http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9885177-54.html

Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f
eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true


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habshi - 20 Mar 2008 01:02 GMT
    Just as in sailing ships they use wind energy, can we not have
an underwater sail to use the water wave and flow energy to propel a
ship and why didnt anybody including Jim think of it before?
    Of course he will say cloth bends , but we could make it from
carbon fibers.

excerpt
    “If you look strictly at the dollars and cents, it’s a long
payback on the order of 20 years — that is a huge commitment.

“Looking at the realty market in California, where there is a lot of
experience with solar power, the resale value of the house” goes up,
Barney said.

“So the payback comes back at you almost instantly, if you really look
at the big picture, not just at the reduction in your electric bill,”
he added.

And homeowners need to calculate in the added advantage of incentives
and tax credits, Kremer pointed out.

“What kind of industry would you rather support? It’s like buying
organic produce from a local farmer, as opposed to[buying from] a
giant” conglomerate, Nielson said.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 20 Mar 2008 02:05 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Just as in sailing ships they use wind energy, can we not have
> an underwater sail to use the water wave and flow energy to propel a
> ship and why didnt anybody including Jim think of it before?

Because everyone with an education knows there are no waves
underwater and damned little flow.

You are an idiot.

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habshi - 20 Mar 2008 01:02 GMT
    excerpt
    World wind power reaches 100,000 megawatts
Posted: 04 Mar 2008

by Jonathan G. Dorn

Global installed wind power capacity will top 100,000 megawatts this
month (March 2008) at current rates of growth. In 2007, wind power
capacity increased by a record-breaking 20,000 mgws, bringing the
world total to 94,100 mgws - enough to satisfy the residential
electricity needs of 150 million people.
Driven by concerns regarding climate change and energy security, one
in every three countries now generates a portion of its electricity
from wind, with 13 countries each exceeding 1,000 megawatts of
installed wind electricity-generating capacity.


Global wind capacity, 1990-2007 (Gigawatts). Source: REN21 Renewables
2007 Global Status Report

In Europe, the 8,660 megawatts of wind power capacity added in 2007
accounted for 40 per cent of all new power installations. This marks
the first year in history that wind power additions in Europe exceeded
the additions of any other power source, including natural gas.

Europe’s installed capacity currently totals 57,100 megawatts, and its
new installations in 2007 accounted for 43 per cent of total global
installations. Wind-generated electricity now meets nearly 4 per cent
of Europe’s electricity demand, enough to supply electricity to 90
million residents.

Germany leads

Germany is still the frontrunner in total installed wind power
capacity, with 22,200 mgws, but in 2007 it lagged behind the United
States, Spain, China, and India in terms of new capacity added. Growth
in Germany is slowing because of a saturation of suitable onshore
sites and a decrease in the feed-in tariff for wind power.
Countrywide, Germany generates more than 7 per cent of its electricity
from the wind. In the northern states of Saxony-Anhalt,
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, and Schleswig-Holstein, wind meets an
impressive 30 per cent of electricity needs.

Spain proved to be the shocker in the European market in 2007,
installing 3,520 megawatts — the highest number ever in Europe in a
single year. Spain now ranks third in total installed wind capacity
with 15,100 megawatts. And with wind energy supplying 10 per cent of
the country’s electricity, Spain is second only to Denmark in terms of
percentage of electricity generated this way.

France also demonstrated impressive gains in 2007, increasing its
total installed wind capacity by 57 per cent to 2,450 megawatts. The
French government’s goal is to increase installed wind capacity to
25,000 megawatts by 2020.

For the third consecutive year, the United States led the world in new
installations, with its 5,240 megawatts accounting for one-quarter of
global installations in 2007. Installations in the fourth quarter of
2007 alone exceeded the figure for all of 2006, and the United States
is on track to overtake Germany as the leader in installed wind power
by the end of 2009.

Wind farms are now found in 34 states and total 16,800 megawatts. The
electrical output from these farms is equivalent to that from 16
coal-fired power plants and is enough to power 4.5 million US homes.
The recent exceptional growth in the United States is largely due to
an extension of the wind production tax credit under the 2005 Energy
Policy Act.

After passing California to become the leader in installed US wind
power capacity in 2006, Texas maintained its lead in 2007 by expanding
its total capacity to 4,360 megawatts. It is now planning the
development of 23,000 megawatts of wind power capacity, enough to
satisfy over half the residential electricity demand in the state.

Chinese target

India installed 1,730 megawatts of new wind power capacity in 2007.
With total installed capacity reaching 8,000 megawatts, India retained
its fourth place on the list of top wind power countries. But due to
the lack of a national renewable energy law that establishes cohesive
goals and provides economic incentives for Indian wind energy
projects, China will likely overtake India in total installed wind
power capacity in late 2008 or early 2009.

China installed 3,450 megawatts of wind capacity in 2007, a
156-percent increase over 2006. With 6,050 megawatts of total
installed capacity at the end of 2007, China has already exceeded its
recent 2010 goal of 5,000 megawatts. The more than 40 Chinese turbine
manufacturers now operating supply 56 per cent of the Chinese market,
up from 41 per cent in 2006.

The Renewable Energy Law (REL), which entered into force on January 1,
2006, is encouraging wind energy growth. The REL was established to
help China meet its goal of generating 15 percent of the country’s
energy from renewables by 2020. It mandates power producers to
increase their ownership of non-hydro renewables to 3 per cent by 2010
and 8 per cent by 2020. While the government target for 2020 is 30,000
megawatts of wind power capacity, the Chinese Renewable Energy
Industry Association projects that with a feed-in tariff and greater
investment in offshore wind farms, wind power installations in China
by then could exceed four times that target.

Offshore wind capacity accounts for almost 1,170 megawatts worldwide,
roughly 1.2 percent of the 94,100 megawatts of installed capacity at
the end of 2007; while this is a small share of the total, it is up
from less than 0.3 percent in 2000. Denmark maintained its leadership
position, with 426 megawatts of installed offshore wind power
capacity, followed by the United Kingdom, Sweden, the Netherlands, and
Finland. In 2008, the United Kingdom is expected to overtake Denmark
for the top spot and Germany is poised to move into the top five. With
more than 1,200 megawatts presently under construction worldwide,
primarily in Europe, offshore wind capacity is expected to more than
double by the end of 2009.

Every UK home

John Hutton, British Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise, and
Regulatory Reform (BERR), says he wants to see 33,000 megawatts of
offshore wind power by 2020, enough to meet the electrical needs of
every home in Britain.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 20 Mar 2008 02:05 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         excerpt
>         World wind power reaches 100,000 megawatts
> Posted: 04 Mar 2008

Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f
eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true


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habshi - 21 Mar 2008 17:01 GMT
    Air is a medium and so is water. If a sail can be pushed by
air , it can be pushed by water under the boat. And because water is
much denser the sail could be a lot smaller. There are plenty of
underwater currents eg gulf stream for the  idea to work well.

excerpt wikipedia

    Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean
current, transporting about 1.4 petawatts of heat, equivalent to 100
times the world energy demand.[5] It transports water at a rate of 30
million cubic meters per second (30 sverdrups) through the Florida
Straits. After it passes Cape Hatteras, this rate increases to 80
million cubic meters per second. The volume of the Gulf Stream dwarfs
all rivers that empty into the Atlantic combined, which barely total
0.6 million cubic meters per second. It is weaker, however, than the
Antarctic Circumpolar Current.

Typically, the Gulf Stream is 80–150 km wide and 800–1200 m deep. The
current velocity is FASTEST  near the surface, with the maximum speed
typically about 2.5 m/s[6] (approx. 4.9 knots).
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 21 Mar 2008 17:45 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Air is a medium and so is water. If a sail can be pushed by
> air , it can be pushed by water under the boat. And because water is
> much denser the sail could be a lot smaller. There are plenty of
> underwater currents eg gulf stream for the  idea to work well.

<snip>

> Typically, the Gulf Stream is 80?150 km wide and 800?1200 m deep. The
> current velocity is FASTEST  near the surface, with the maximum speed
> typically about 2.5 m/s[6] (approx. 4.9 knots).

4.9 knots maximum isn't going to get you anywhere anytime soon.

Sailboats can go in directions other than just downwind because they
have a keel.

You are an idiot as demonstrated by your own post.

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habshi - 21 Mar 2008 23:39 GMT
>Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean
current, transporting about 1.4 petawatts of heat, equivalent to 100
times the world energy demand<

    So really the USA only needs to extract 0.5% of Gulf current
energy to become energy independent forever.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 22 Mar 2008 02:55 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> >Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is a strong ocean
> current, transporting about 1.4 petawatts of heat, equivalent to 100
> times the world energy demand<

>         So really the USA only needs to extract 0.5% of Gulf current
> energy to become energy independent forever.

One word: Carnot

You are, and ever shall be, an idiot.

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habshi - 22 Mar 2008 12:22 GMT
    They put a turbine in the Hudson river in New York and they
had to keep changing it for a more powerful one.
    The Gulf current has ten times the water flow of all rivers
combined !
    And you only need to extract less than 1% letting the fish
keep the other 99% to make the USA energy independent !!

excerpt
Corren's team installed its first two turbines in the East River in
December. One has been delivering a maximum of 35 kilowatts of power
to New York City, swiveling to generate power as the river swells with
the high tides and empties with the low. The other turbine delivers
performance data that Corren says will be crucial to refining the
blades and gearbox, generator, and control system to optimize power
generation.

This month Verdant added four more 35-kilowatt turbines. Corren says
Verdant is now working on a next-generation design that will be
cheaper to mass-produce, in anticipation of installing a farm of at
least 100 turbines at the East River site.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 22 Mar 2008 19:15 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         They put a turbine in the Hudson river in New York and they
> had to keep changing it for a more powerful one.
>         The Gulf current has ten times the water flow of all rivers
> combined !

flow != velocity

You are still, and ever will be, an idiot.

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habshi - 21 Mar 2008 23:51 GMT
    Jim think about it . The Gulf stream has a bigger water flow
ten times more than all the rivers flowing into the Atlantic , even
including the Amazon and Mississipi and only America needs is 0.5% of
that energy.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 22 Mar 2008 02:55 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Jim think about it . The Gulf stream has a bigger water flow
> ten times more than all the rivers flowing into the Atlantic , even
> including the Amazon and Mississipi and only America needs is 0.5% of
> that energy.

I thought about for .5 milliseconds, much longer than the idea deserves,
and realized you are still an uneducatable idiot.

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dave.walters@comcast.net - 22 Mar 2008 13:25 GMT
On Mar 21, 6:55 pm, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics habshi <hab...@anony.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Remove .spam.sux to reply.

habshi doesn't get it, and never will. He thinks "energy denisity" is
something that is irrelevant if you throw enough money at it. The
reason these kinds of gimics, like the East River water turbines are
limited is because of the density being so low and costs per KW being
so high. This is the time of the rise of 'boutique' energy sources.

Not all are a bad idea, mind you, like the barrage proposals in
England and Wales, for example, are real, positive contributions.

Nuclear is the only thing that can close a coal plant, kw-per-kw.

David
habshi - 23 Mar 2008 00:11 GMT
>ike the East River water turbines are
limited is because of the density being so low and costs per KW being
so high.<

    Nonsense . They are putting 100 turbines generating 35kw each
or 3.5 MW enough for thousands of  homes and that is just from a tiny
part near New York. Thousands more can be put upstream.
    Rivers near the ocean  dont flow any faster than the Gulf
Stream , and the energy available from the Gulf stream is tens of
millions times that of River Hudson. Its worth a trial.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 23 Mar 2008 03:05 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> >ike the East River water turbines are
> limited is because of the density being so low and costs per KW being
> so high.<

>         Nonsense . They are putting 100 turbines generating 35kw each
> or 3.5 MW enough for thousands of  homes and that is just from a tiny
> part near New York. Thousands more can be put upstream.
>         Rivers near the ocean  dont flow any faster than the Gulf
> Stream , and the energy available from the Gulf stream is tens of
> millions times that of River Hudson. Its worth a trial.

Yet more proof you are, and always shall be, an idiot.

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habshi - 30 Mar 2008 11:20 GMT
    excerpt
Since the beginning of the decade the EU has added 47000 megawatts
(MW) of new wind energy compared to just 9600 MW of coal and only 1200
MW of nuclear

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1980-05-01/The-Mehrkam-Wind-Turb
ine.aspx


    Spurred on by the obvious success of the four-blade design,
Terry took the next logical step: He added yet another pair of
airfoils to further reduce his machine's shaft speed and to make it
even more productive at low windspeeds.

Again, his calculations proved correct . . . the new six-blade model
not only ran smoothly—with a minimum of equipment stress and an
easy-to-live-with 40decibel noise level output, as measured directly
below the blades-but, even more important, charged in an unbelievably
slight breeze. (After an initial 7MPH gust-which is what's required in
order to get the machine rotating from a standstill-the Mehrkam
windplant will continue to spin in air currents of as little as 2 MPH
. . . with an effective charge being delivered in a 5-MPH wind. An
8MPH zephyr will produce as much as a kilowatt of power, and that
figure is increased to between three and four kilowatts as windspeeds
rise to 10-MPH.)
    Besides the fact that MEDC's equipment can produce usable
power from very little wind independent of the public utility grid if
desired the costperkilo-watt of such a system, installed, currently
averages about $650 . . . with some installations ( those that are
used exclusively to provide resistance heating and thus don't require
inverters, batteries, or other power-conditioning equipment) running
as low as $550 per kilowatt, all told. When you compare such figures
with the $1,000 (and greater) cost per kilowatt of the average
utility, wind-powered electricity looks pretty good . . . not to
mention the fact that such a generating setup can earn federal tax
credits, increase the value of the property it's on, be a worthwhile
investment in itself, and sometimes enable its owner to sell excess
power back to the local utility!
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 30 Mar 2008 16:55 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         excerpt
> Since the beginning of the decade the EU has added 47000 megawatts
> (MW) of new wind energy compared to just 9600 MW of coal and only 1200
> MW of nuclear

The state of Texas put in a crap load of "wind energy", then the wind
stopped and all the lights went out.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f
eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true


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Dan Bloomquist - 30 Mar 2008 17:45 GMT
> In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>>         excerpt
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f
eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true

"System operators curtailed power to interruptible customers to shave
1,100 megawatts of demand within 10 minutes, ERCOT said. Interruptible
customers are generally large industrial customers who are paid to
reduce power use when emergencies occur.

No other customers lost power during the emergency, ERCOT said.
Interruptible customers were restored in about 90 minutes and the
emergency was over in three hours."
***

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/peak-natural-gas/529

And of course, the growth of LNG imports by the EIA is a gross
exaggeration in this world.
habshi - 31 Mar 2008 00:15 GMT
    excerpt

    Efficiency and Technical Myths

Myth: Power from wind turbines fluctuates so that there is the
prospect of power outages and power spikes.

Fact: Under the National Electricity Code wind farms are not permitted
to cause any adverse effects to the network that may cause power
outages or spikes. Generating plants are not permitted to connect to
the network unless it can be demonstrated that they will not harm the
grid.

Myth: Wind power fluctuations would require additional coal-fired
capacity to be brought on line to even out the flow of electricity.
Or
Most wind proponents' claims to greenhouse gas savings ignore the
emissions of having another power station to back up windmills in case
the wind drops.

Fact: Every kilowatt hour of energy generated by the wind in
Australia, is a kilowatt hour NOT generated by other sources. The
addition of wind generation up to about 20% of the total generation
has no need for additional back-up as the National Electricity Market
already has backup "spinning reserve" to meet sudden increases in
demand. This reserve is generally provided by hydro and gas, which can
be brought on-line much quicker than coal.

Myth: Wind power is inefficient.

Fact: Modern wind generators' efficiency of converting energy to
electricity is about 45% -- this is the ratio of converting wind (a
free, no emissions fuel) kinetic energy into electrical energy. By
contrast, the efficiency of black coal plant is about 35%, and brown
coal plant about 29%. Thus most of the energy stored in coal is lost
in the generation and distribution process. Wind farms provide
distributed generation, with the clean electricity consumed close to
where it is generated. Furthermore, a wind turbine replaces all the
energy used in its construction and installation (termed "embedded
energy") in less than 6 months, and then generates clean energy for
over 20 years.

Myth: Wind power causes massive problems with the grid, such as
'reactive power', 'capacity inefficiency', 'dynamic stability',
'inertia/frequency' and 'generation redundancy' which are very
expensive to solve.

Fact: All electricity generation processes must consider the power
quality and characteristics, and these are matters that are considered
at the design stage to ensure grid managers and customers get a good
supply from the system. Australia has high standards for its
generators in this regard, and wind power plants on the grid meet or
surpass these standards, otherwise the wind companies would not have
been allowed a connection to the grid.

Myth: Wind energy is unreliable.

Fact: Wind energy varies, but its future output can be predicted ahead
of time very well through specialized forecasting software linked to
meteorological forecasting. No weather pattern hits the whole of the
Australian continent at the same time, but rather a mix of weather
patterns cover the country at any given time. Therefore, as more and
more wind energy is connected to the grid there will be an increase in
site diversity so there will be a smoothing effect on the input into
the national electricity grid from wind farms. As grid
interconnections between states become stronger, the overall input
from wind farms to the grid will become increasingly steady, making it
more and more comparable to other base load generators.

Myth: Wind energy generation is insignificant.

Fact: Wind energy is a new industry in Australia, and like everything
else new, it starts small and then grows. The industry currently
generates enough energy for 83,000 Australian homes. There is more
than 2,800 megawatts of wind in planning, enough for over half a
million households, and worth $5 billion in investment. In Denmark
wind energy provides 20% of the country's electricity needs.

Myth: Australia needs more power and wind cannot keep up.

Fact: Australia's demand for power is increasing and if this
generation comes from fossil fuels it will lead to more greenhouse gas
emissions. Addressing this pressure requires ensuring that consumption
is minimized through the use of cost effective energy efficient
technology on the demand side, and through a low-emission generation
mix on the supply side. For instance wind power, when used with gas
and hydro, can provide a flexible supply to meet base-load and peak
demand but with very low pollution. There is no shortage of wind and
other renewable supplies in Australia, and there is massive room for
the application of energy efficiency so that Australia's future power
needs can be met in a cost effective and sustainable manner.

Planning Myths

Myth: Unfettered access to wind sites maximizes wind developer
profits.

Fact: Wind farms are subject to planning processes the same as any
other development. For example, Victoria's wind energy guidelines
clearly state projects will not be approved on the basis of wind
resources: "However planning approval is not granted on wind speeds
alone. A wind farm developer will need to prepare an application that
requires a number of steps to be completed for the wind energy
facility to be assessed." Source: Victorian Wind Energy Policy and
Planning Guidelines.

Myth: Ad-hoc planning policy favors developers and not communities.

Fact: Wind farm planning policy used to be more ad-hoc when
developments were assessed and approved on a council-by-council basis.
There are now clear planning policies in place in several states to
guide developers, community, and government on the appropriate sitting
of wind farms. In addition the Australian Wind Energy Association
acted early by publishing its own Best Practice Guidelines for Grid
Connected Wind Energy Projects in March 2002. This project was funded
by the Commonwealth through the Australian Greenhouse Office.

Myth: Victorian Guidelines say a wind energy facility can be built
anywhere in Victoria outside of a National Park.

Fact: The guidelines do not say this, anywhere. What they do say is:
"Commercial wind energy developments will not be permitted on any land
reserved under the National Parks Act (1975). Excluding wind energy
development from land protected under the National Parks Act excludes
wind energy facilities from approx 43% of the length of Victoria's
coastline. It also excludes development from approx 32% of the area
within 1km of the coast."

Myth: Wind farms are unpopular with their neighbors.

Fact: A recent Scottish Executive survey of more than 1,800 residents
near wind farms found that their opinion of the sites became more
positive after it became operational. It found high levels of
acceptance and overwhelming support for wind power, with support
strongest amongst those who lived closest to the wind farms. People
are three times as likely to say that they feel that their local wind
farm has had a generally positive impact on the area as they are to
say it has had a negative impact. People living within 5 km of the
local wind farm hold the most positive views, with 45% thinking the
overall impact has been positive, and only 6% saying it has been
negative. A majority (54%) would support an expansion of their local
wind farm by half the number of turbines again, while one in ten is
opposed (9%).

Economic Myths

Myth: Wind power is uneconomic, priced many times higher than that of
conventional generation.

Fact: Wind energy costs about 7.5 cents per kilowatt hour to generate
and costs continue to fall at around 4% per annum. The pool price of
electricity is about 4 cents per kilowatt hour and this currently does
not reflect environmental cost of the greenhouse emissions produced or
even the cost of building new conventional power plants.

Myth: Wind power requires a massive consumer-funded subsidy to be
viable.

Fact: Wind energy is just one of 23 renewable energy technologies
(like hydro, solar and biomass) that operate under the Commonwealth
Government's Mandatory Renewable Energy Target (MRET) initiative, a
program designed to develop a renewable energy industry and cut
greenhouse pollution. Wind is growing faster than other forms of clean
energy (about 70% of new renewable energy projects are wind) in part
because it is the most plentiful and economical option currently
available. The MRET is a market scheme within the power sector with
power consumers paying for the incremental cost of the cleaner energy,
not the tax payer. (By way of comparison, fossil fuel generation
receives an estimated $900 million in subsidies per year.)

Myth: Running a windmill at full pace for an hour reduces greenhouse
gas emissions by one tonne at a cost of $77 compared to $15 by
providing a broad based emissions trading scheme.

Fact: Energy efficiency and other measures provide low cost, but short
term emissions reductions. To reduce greenhouse gas emission by over
60% as is called for by climate scientists and Environment Minister
Kemp, clean energy uptake must be rapidly increased. Wind power
provides the most environmentally benign and least cost of the
solutions. To fully realize its contribution to the Australian
economy, the industry must be built up in the short term to create
local manufacturing and export capacity.

Myth: The public would not want to pay more for wind power.

Fact: Two recent polls demonstrate consistently high support for clean
energy such as wind, even if it means paying more for electricity. A
poll by Australian Research Group Pty and commissioned by AusWEA shows
that 95% of respondents support the use of wind power, while 50%
support the use of gas and just 21% support the use of new coal plant.
76% of respondents said they would be prepared to pay 5% more on their
electricity bill if it meant that they would be purchasing 10% more
clean energy. A separate poll (by News poll and commissioned by
Greenpeace) found that 83% of Australians would be willing to pay
$3.50 more on their monthly energy bills if it meant that 10% of
Australia's electricity would come from new renewable sources by 2010.

Environmental Myths

Myth: Wind farms pose a serious threat to birds.

Fact: Any tall structure presents a risk to birds, but the threat from
wind turbines is not only very small compared to other impacts, it is
also one of the most intensively studied of all risks to birds. To put
this risk into perspective, US bird experts Curry and Kerlinger have
estimated that 100 million bird deaths a year can be attributed to
domestic cats, compared to an estimated 5 to 10 thousand killed by
turbines - meaning cats' risk to birds is at least 10,000 times
greater than that posed by wind turbines in the US. The Exxon Valdez
oil spill alone is estimated to have killed up to 500,000 birds. New
research at several operational Australian wind farms indicates that
risk to birds may be even less than first expected, and well below the
predicted levels from models that were run as part of the approvals
process. The research found not a single mortality for rare or
significant bird species. All wind farm developments are accountable
under the Commonwealth Environmental Protection and Biodiversity
Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC).

Myth: 24 environmental organizations in the USA, including the Audubon
Society, have called on the US Government for more controls on sitting
of turbines due to 4-5 million bird kills; The US Fish and Wildlife
Service estimated that turbines kill four to five million migratory
birds every year.

Fact: Statements such as the above untruthful and misleading; the
media release in question actually says: "The US Fish & Wildlife
Service estimates that communication towers, such as those for
cellular telephones, already kill between 4 and 5 million migratory
birds each year." The release calls for the US Government to "assess
the impact on migratory birds before more new permits are given to
build wind turbines." This is already done in Australia. Furthermore,
the (British) Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Europe's
largest wildlife conservation charity with over a million members,
takes the view that although wind turbines do present a risk to birds,
it is site-specific and very small compared to other human activities
and the risks presented by climate change. The Society actively
encourages new wind farm developments by means of its own green energy
product RSPB Energy.

Myth: Wind generators are noisy.

Fact: A conversation can be carried out at the base of a modern
operating turbine without raising one's voice. A modern turbine at 350
meters is about as audible as the background noise of a quiet bedroom.
Wind turbines produce a predominantly "whoosing" sound that has a far
more natural characteristic than most sources of industrial noise.

Myth: Wind generators are detrimental to the landscape.

Fact: Open cut coal mines are permanent as are the emissions they
produce. The effects of climate change will be permanent, causing the
destruction of reefs, depleted alpine ecosystems, and damaged coastal
ecosystems. Other major developments that regularly gain approval such
as coastal subdivision and marina development impart permanent damage
and loss of habitat. By contrast wind turbines cause very little
permanent damage, occupying less than 2% of the land area within a
given wind farm boundary. They can be dismantled after 20-25 years and
the land returned to virtually its former state.

Tourism Myths

Myth: Wind farms will detract from tourism.

Fact: There is no evidence that wind farms negatively impact tourism
in Australia. In fact there is ample anecdotal evidence that they may
encourage tourism. The Windy Hill wind farm on the Atherton Tablelands
(Queensland) was visited by approximately 30,000 cars in the first
three months of operation, while the Codrington wind farm in Victoria
currently attracts 50,000 visitors per year. An Aus pool survey
conducted by Pacific Hydro on the Portland Wind Energy Project showed
that 94% of Portland residents described wind generators as
"interesting" and 74% as "graceful". In a separate survey, when asked
if they would be more likely to visit the coast if there were wind
farms in the area, 36% of Victorians surveyed said yes, 55% indicated
that it would make no difference, while only 8% said they would be
less likely to visit the area.

Furthermore, UK research done in 2002 found that 91% of visitors to a
highly scenic area in Scotland said that local wind farms made no
difference to the likelihood of them visiting the area. Twice as many
people said the presence of wind farms would make them "more likely"
to visit again than the amount who would be "less likely" to visit.
The majority (80%) also said they would be interested in visiting a
wind farm with a public visitor centre versus one in five "not
interested".

Property Prices

Myth: Wind farms decrease property values.

Fact: An in-depth, government-funded study completed in the USA in
2003 shows that a view of a wind farm does not decrease, but may
actually increase the value of a property. The study did a total of 30
analyses on ten projects and found that in twenty six of these
analyses, property values in the affected view shed (defined as within
5 miles of the turbines) performed better than in the comparable
community.

The only Australian study is an informal one on the Esperance wind
farm at Salmon Beach, a premier Western Australia residential area.
The residential area was built after the wind farm but still showed a
strong trend of increasing house prices throughout the estate over the
ensuing years. In fact, local residents complained at the proposal to
decommission the wind farm at the end of its design life.



Bangladesh coastal areas of Cox’s Bazar, Khepupara, Tekhnaf,
Patuakhali, Hill Districts  and many river port areas have steady
winds almost through the year excepting high monsoon. We understand
that some areas of Bangladesh have
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 31 Mar 2008 01:25 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         excerpt

>         Efficiency and Technical Myths

> Myth: Power from wind turbines fluctuates so that there is the
> prospect of power outages and power spikes.

> Fact: Under the National Electricity Code wind farms are not permitted
> to cause any adverse effects to the network that may cause power
> outages or spikes. Generating plants are not permitted to connect to
> the network unless it can be demonstrated that they will not harm the
> grid.

Tell that to Texas where the wind died causing the Texas grid operator
to cut service to some large customers.

Not harming the grid doesn't mean the power stays on.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2749522920080228?feedType=RSS&f
eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Of course in your comic book world all that has to be done is make it
illegal for the wind to die.

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habshi - 27 Apr 2008 22:49 GMT
    excerpt
    But Anil Kane, president of the World Wind Energy Association,
said in terms of operating costs, which include fuel prices and
maintenance, wind power is more competitive than other sources such as
nuclear and solar.

It has been projected China's wind capacity could reach as high as
120,000MW, or equal to the capacity of five Three Gorges dams, by 2020
if the state reforms a subsidy system to give wind power larger
premiums over coal.
habshi - 27 Apr 2008 22:49 GMT
    excerpt
    The 12.5 percent requirement translates into an investment of
at least $12 billion in wind energy installations, according to the
American Wind Energy Association, an industry trade group. Most of the
wind farms would be in Ohio, a key to Strickland's desire for
homegrown power sources, the association said.

A study last year by the advocacy group Environment Ohio found that if
the state's utilities' use of wind power jumped to 20 percent by 2020,
it would create the equivalent of 3,100 jobs and would put about $8.2
billion into Ohio's economy. Property owners also would profit by
leasing their land for wind farms, the group said.

Renewable energy delivery systems could be made in abandoned
factories, closed because of the slide in Ohio's manufacturing
economy, Environment Ohio Director Erin Bowser said.

"We basically looked at what would happen if we met our need for
electricity with wind energy rather than stay the course," Bowser
said. "There already more than 100 companies based in Ohio that in
some way, shape or form are creating (energy) jobs."

Ohio currently has just one working wind farm, which consists of four
turbines in Bowling Green. It generates enough electricity to power
3,000 homes, the city says.

However, wind is on the move. Ohio becomes the 25th state, along with
the District of Columbia, to enact mandatory renewable energy
policies. Last year, wind generation accounted for 30 percent of all
new generating capacity, with an investment of $9 billion, the
association said. Wind trailed only natural gas as the leading source
of new capacity.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 27 Apr 2008 23:25 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         excerpt
>         The 12.5 percent requirement translates into an investment of
> at least $12 billion in wind energy installations, according to the
> American Wind Energy Association, an industry trade group. Most of the
> wind farms would be in Ohio, a key to Strickland's desire for
> homegrown power sources, the association said.

Translation: We want all the subsidies spent here.

> A study last year by the advocacy group Environment Ohio found that if
> the state's utilities' use of wind power jumped to 20 percent by 2020,
> it would create the equivalent of 3,100 jobs and would put about $8.2
> billion into Ohio's economy. Property owners also would profit by
> leasing their land for wind farms, the group said.

If all you do is put up the turbines and do a little maintenance
now and then, what are these 3,100 jobs? People sweeping up the
dead birds?

> Renewable energy delivery systems could be made in abandoned
> factories, closed because of the slide in Ohio's manufacturing
> economy, Environment Ohio Director Erin Bowser said.

"Renewable energy", also known as electricity, is delivered by wires
and distributed from transformers out in the open; no buildings needed.

It isn't packed in crates and shipped out on trucks.

Bunch of press release babble.

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habshi - 29 Apr 2008 00:09 GMT
    There is nothing wrong with subsidies eg NASA , beating
Islamists etc. if it stimulates the development of new techonologies.
Those who dont subsidize eg African countries their farmers end up
starving . Those who do eg Europe , USA , their farmers and their
citizens grow prosperous.
    Subsidizing production creates wealth , just ask China ,
subsidizing consumption eg Cuba creates misery. Jim before you argue
as is your wont , collect some evidence to back your remarks.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 29 Apr 2008 01:05 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         There is nothing wrong with subsidies eg NASA , beating
> Islamists etc. if it stimulates the development of new techonologies.

Those are fully government run organizations and a proper function
of government. They are not subsidized.

You don't even know the meaning of the word.

> Those who dont subsidize eg African countries their farmers end up
> starving . Those who do eg Europe , USA , their farmers and their
> citizens grow prosperous.

You do not grow prosperous through subsidies. You are only stealing
money from one sector and redistributing it to another.

>         Subsidizing production creates wealth , just ask China

Yeah, ask China.

Government subsidies through bad loans to companies unable to make a
profit has caused a huge Chinese debt that is basically unserviceable
and a banking system on the verge of collapse.

You are a babbling idiot as usual.

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habshi - 02 May 2008 00:15 GMT
    China in fact is taking over the world's manufacturing by
burning over a billion tonnes of coal a year ,and sell the electricity
to the factories for almost nothing , and they dont even have to buy
health care , if that is not a subsidy then I am a monkey's uncle,
which I am , but that is another story.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 02 May 2008 02:15 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         China in fact is taking over the world's manufacturing by
> burning over a billion tonnes of coal a year ,and sell the electricity
> to the factories for almost nothing , and they dont even have to buy
> health care , if that is not a subsidy then I am a monkey's uncle,
> which I am , but that is another story.

China attempted to take over the world's manufacturing by providing
loans through the government owned banks to unprofitable companies.

Since the companies were unprofitable, the loans weren't serviced
and are defaulting.

The Chinese banks, and the entire Chinese economy since the government
ultimately owns all the banks and bad loans, is on the verge of
collapse.

In desperation, the government is trying to back out of the situation
through various means, such as simply taking the bad loans off the
books, but it may be too little too late.

A prime example of subsidies gone wild to the brink of disaster.

You are an idiot.

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habshi - 03 May 2008 01:01 GMT
    China has a trillion dollars of forex reserves and could buy
up much of USA if it wanted to , USA has a trillion dollar deficit and
is begging the Chinese to invest. Subsidies to production as the
Chinese have done and Indians and EU  did for agriculture , works
wonders.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 03 May 2008 01:45 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         China has a trillion dollars of forex reserves and could buy
> up much of USA if it wanted to , USA has a trillion dollar deficit and
> is begging the Chinese to invest. Subsidies to production as the
> Chinese have done and Indians and EU  did for agriculture , works
> wonders.

Bad bank loans, which are backed by the Chinese government are at
about $900 billion.

That doesn't include any other debt of any kind.

You know nothing about economics.

You are an idiot.

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habshi - 04 May 2008 10:57 GMT
    Actually that is less than the bad loans backed by US .
Another own goal Jim!

In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         China has a trillion dollars of forex reserves and could buy
> up much of USA if it wanted to , USA has a trillion dollar deficit and
> is begging the Chinese to invest. Subsidies to production as the
> Chinese have done and Indians and EU  did for agriculture , works
> wonders.

Bad bank loans, which are backed by the Chinese government are at
about $900 billion.

That doesn't include any other debt of any kind.

You know nothing about economics.

You are an idiot.

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jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 04 May 2008 18:35 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Actually that is less than the bad loans backed by US .
> Another own goal Jim!

Wrong, but what would one expect from someone who knows nothing
about economics, basic science, or anything outside the covers
of a comic book?

China has a big problem with loans made to companies that are worthless
and will be lucky to recover $.05 on each dollar loaned.

The US right now has a big problem with realestate loans where the
current value of the property is less than the loan amount, but
nowhere near worthless.

In addition to the business loans, China has the same problem with
realestate loans, just not to the extent as the US.

You are an idiot.

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habshi - 05 May 2008 02:16 GMT
    Have a reality check
US trade deficit - half a trillion dollars a year
Chinese trade surplus - half a trillion a year.
    Soon the Chinese will start buying USA companies and shipping
the high tech stuff to China

excerpt bloomberg.com
    China's trade surplus shrank for the first time in more than
three years in the three months to March 31 from a year earlier,
narrowing 11 percent to about $41.4 billion.(ie $480b a year)
......

    Many of the most serious economic problems facing the U.S.
today are the result of the trade deficits of the past 2½ decades
which exploded from $96.2 billion in 1996 to $708 billion in 2007,
equivalent to the output (value-added) of 6.4 million industrial
workers. Nor are they disappearing. In February, 2008, the trade
deficit amounted to $62.3 billion and the decline in manufacturing
employment was 52,000.

The number who lost their factory jobs in the past twelve months was
300,000. The effects of the trade deficits include the collapse of the
dollar, the decline of manufacturing and the consequent loss of
millions of well-paid manufacturing jobs, stagnant wages and the
worsening distribution of income, our sluggish economy, soaring oil
and commodity prices, and volatile stock market and real estate market
behavior.

It is a problem we are going to have to deal with. Because the trade
deficits have gone on so long, there is no easy solution. Anything we
do will incur heavy costs. Our solution, we believe, is the least
costly.

Is it true that the trade deficits are really the cause of these
problems? Let’s take a look.

1. The falling dollar. When we import more than we export, foreigners
earn US dollars. Converting those dollars into their own currencies in
the foreign exchange markets increases the supply of US dollars and
causes the dollar to fall relative to other currencies. In 2000, a
dollar was valued at 1.05 Euros; in 2008, it was valued at 0.64 Euros,
a forty percent drop.

Some countries including China, Japan, and some oil-exporting
countries do not sell their dollars in foreign exchange markets, which
would lower the value of the dollar relative to other currencies but
use them to buy U.S. Treasurys and other financial assets which
results in no change in the value of the dollar relative
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 05 May 2008 03:15 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Have a reality check

Have a reality check yourself.

The trade deficit has nothing to do with any previous post.

You couldn't tell the difference between a trade deficit and a cheese
sandwich.

You are an idiot.

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habshi - 05 May 2008 11:28 GMT
    Fantastic photograph of a new memory chip with wires just 150
atoms wide ! Wonder how many atoms you have to go down to before they
become fuzzy according to quantym mechanics?
    One thing that always puzzles me. How can there be more than
one building block? If there are two for example then there must be
something about them that is different ie their internal structure
differs , due to what subcompnent , and so on ad infinitum , eg
protons to quarks to rishons to what ?

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/05/02/science/050208-Sciencepix_2.html
...
nytimes.com
Also we MUST control populations , even the cia is beginning to become
alarmed.
    My favourite author Asimov , wrote an article once. For each
person on this planet , there are at least a million trillion cubic
light years of space , and yet at just 2% growth a year , in less than
10,000 years it would be filled solid with humans! So we cant allow
populations to grow at this rate. Flat rate welfare , converting all
current  aid from the west to say $25 per woman per month. Even
covering just ten per cent of the populaiton would provide an
incentive to others to have less than three.
    The white population in all of Europe is actually collapsing ,
Britain will be down to just 6m this century as women who can be so
illogical are refusing to replace themselves , just 1.2 children per
woman.
....
excerpt
1. Muslims should give up Islam , all it brings is overpopulation and
dependence on foreigners for food.
    2. There must be flat rate welfare for small , less than three
children families , so they can survive the coming famines as the
Arabs price the oil too high for most to survive.

    excerpt
    Wage can't earn two moderate meals a day
Workers tell roundtable
Staff Correspondent

The amount of wages for garment workers is so meagre that it becomes
almost impossible for them to manage two moderate meals a day due to
soaring prices of essentials, let alone taking care of health, grudges
a garment worker.

“BGMEA (Bangladesh Garment Manufacturers and Exporters Association)
said workers can visit doctors at its medical centres, but do we have
any time to go to centres? Our work pressure is so heavy that we
cannot even have some time for rest,” said Farzana, a garment worker
with a decade's experience.
excerpt
    Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the director of the Central
Intelligence Agency, yesterday described three troublesome trends that
distinguish this century from the last, and the exploding populations
of poor places topped his list.
    Today, there are about 6.7 billion people sharing our planet.
By midcentury, the best estimates point to a world population of more
than 9 billion. Most of that growth will occur in countries least able
to sustain it, a situation that will likely fuel instability and
extremism, both in those areas and beyond.
Many poor, already fragile states — where governance is difficult
today — will grow rapidly. In Afghanistan, Liberia, Niger and the
Democratic Republic of Congo, the population is expected to triple by
midcentury. The number
    He also stressed the significance of China’s emergence as a
superpower:
    NYT in the last month or so has had two sober looks at Egypt
which is by no means bad off in the developing realm. The first piece
noted that many young adults were sliding into despair over their
gloomy job prospects. Some were religion bound. The other noted that
the average noise level around Cairo between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m. was 85
decibels. Sanity must be hard to come by.

Twenty one years ago I visited Cairo and quickly thought a better name
would have been “Chaos”. They may have doubled their population since
then.
daestrom - 29 Apr 2008 00:50 GMT
> In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> A study last year by the advocacy group Environment Ohio found that if
>> the state's utilities' use of wind power jumped to 20 percent by 2020,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> now and then, what are these 3,100 jobs? People sweeping up the
> dead birds?

This is probably the same nonsense we see a lot of here in NY.  Someone
wants to build something and the local politicians start pushing for it
because "...it will bring 150 jobs into the area".  What they fail to
mention is those are *construction* jobs, not permanent staff!!!  The
permanent staff hired locally is less than 10.

But of course the builder wants a tax break or some other concessions to
build here.  And again, the politicians are willing to give them because,
"...it will bring much-needed jobs into the area."

So, with the ground-breaking, we have a bunch of transient construction
workers move into the area for 6 months to a year, then leave.  We get a
handful of permanent staffing jobs added to the economy, and the 'project'
gets a nice low PILOT (Payment In Lieu Of Taxes) agreement for the next 10
to 20 years.  The current taxpayers get to fund infrastructure improvements,
and the property gets taken off the tax rolls for 10+ years.

Basically, the politicians give them a great break on property/income taxes
for a long period of time for the 'benefit' of having some out of state
construction workers live in the area for 6 months.  And they get as much
'mileage' as they can out of this come election time, "I helped bring jobs
to the area."

And the rest of us get stuck with ever rising property taxes because the
'project' doesn't pay taxes for >10 years.  But all sorts of infrastructure
improvements are made to entice this 'job-creating' project into the area
and who gets stuck paying for them?

daestrom

P.S.  And after 10 years, it suddenly isn't economical for them to pay the
taxes so they leave the state and the cycle repeats itself.

P.P.S.  No, I'm not bitter about this happening in NY, not at all, (NOT!!!)
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 29 Apr 2008 01:15 GMT
In sci.physics daestrom <daestrom@no_spam_heretwcny.rr.com> wrote:

> > In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
> <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > now and then, what are these 3,100 jobs? People sweeping up the
> > dead birds?

> This is probably the same nonsense we see a lot of here in NY.  Someone
> wants to build something and the local politicians start pushing for it
> because "...it will bring 150 jobs into the area".  What they fail to
> mention is those are *construction* jobs, not permanent staff!!!  The
> permanent staff hired locally is less than 10.

> But of course the builder wants a tax break or some other concessions to
> build here.  And again, the politicians are willing to give them because,
> "...it will bring much-needed jobs into the area."

> So, with the ground-breaking, we have a bunch of transient construction
> workers move into the area for 6 months to a year, then leave.  We get a
> handful of permanent staffing jobs added to the economy, and the 'project'
> gets a nice low PILOT (Payment In Lieu Of Taxes) agreement for the next 10
> to 20 years.  The current taxpayers get to fund infrastructure improvements,
> and the property gets taken off the tax rolls for 10+ years.

> Basically, the politicians give them a great break on property/income taxes
> for a long period of time for the 'benefit' of having some out of state
> construction workers live in the area for 6 months.  And they get as much
> 'mileage' as they can out of this come election time, "I helped bring jobs
> to the area."

> And the rest of us get stuck with ever rising property taxes because the
> 'project' doesn't pay taxes for >10 years.  But all sorts of infrastructure
> improvements are made to entice this 'job-creating' project into the area
> and who gets stuck paying for them?

> daestrom

> P.S.  And after 10 years, it suddenly isn't economical for them to pay the
> taxes so they leave the state and the cycle repeats itself.

> P.P.S.  No, I'm not bitter about this happening in NY, not at all, (NOT!!!)

Could be worse.

Locally this huge plant to make throw away cigarette lighters was built.

It was so automatted it was like the Porkey Pig cartoon of the Acme
factory. Trucks on one side unloaded material and on the other loaded
product.

Inside were 3, yes three, full time workers including the janitor.

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nada - 30 Apr 2008 00:02 GMT
The problem desipte all the fake "myth and fact" at the beginning of
this thread is a major lie. that for ever KW of wind or solar, a KW of
fossil doesn't get generated. How quaint. This would be true if those
coal plants in Australia ever ONCE shutdown because there was too much
wind and solar. But there is not. Not ONE wind mill in Oz ever
shutdown a power plant. Netiher has a wind turbine in Europe.

Wind companies are far more honest about this. Clipper wind states on
their wind site that 20 to 25% actual capacity is good. The rest of
the time you keep boilers hot by burning coal...all  the time. This is
why economist see at most 25% of any grid wind power because it could
make sense *building* fossil plants to back this up and follow
load...but more than that you get a big time deminishing return as
more and more fossil plants have to be built.

So...while the fact is that you can burn less coal the few times a day
the sun shines or the wind blows, you need to keep burning coal to
keep the power flowing "just in case".

Nuclear of course has none of these problems, but that's another
thread.

energyfromthorium.com
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 30 Apr 2008 00:25 GMT
In sci.physics nada <dwaltersMIA@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem desipte all the fake "myth and fact" at the beginning of
> this thread is a major lie. that for ever KW of wind or solar, a KW of
> fossil doesn't get generated. How quaint. This would be true if those
> coal plants in Australia ever ONCE shutdown because there was too much
> wind and solar. But there is not. Not ONE wind mill in Oz ever
> shutdown a power plant. Netiher has a wind turbine in Europe.

> Wind companies are far more honest about this. Clipper wind states on
> their wind site that 20 to 25% actual capacity is good. The rest of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> load...but more than that you get a big time deminishing return as
> more and more fossil plants have to be built.

> So...while the fact is that you can burn less coal the few times a day
> the sun shines or the wind blows, you need to keep burning coal to
> keep the power flowing "just in case".

> Nuclear of course has none of these problems, but that's another
> thread.

Umm, no.

Having a nuclear plant at idle is an economic disaster.

The only type of generator that you can reasonably turn on and off
with minimal economic consequence is a gas (as in natural gas) turbine.

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habshi - 27 Jul 2008 11:44 GMT
    Why not build funnels to channel the wind as in China below?

excerpt

He installed fins on cooling coils inside the freezer to increase
efficiency and moved the condenser to the top of the building, where
natural wind flow helped cool it. Within a year, he'd cut energy
consumption by 30 percent.

Vagadia says the faulty blades have affected Suzlon's reputation and
the company is working with customers to limit the damage. Suzlon has
set aside $139 million to compensate customers for the cracked blades
and now ships a stiffer product called V3, made of fiber-reinforced
plastic, that hasn't broken.

Offshore Wind Farms

Projects worth $120 billion are stalled partly because of a shortage
of construction ships and the soaring cost of steel used in the
turbines. Repower's 5-megawatt turbine stands on a tower about 90
meters tall, holds blades that are 61.5 meters long and can only be
serviced using a helicopter.

Material costs have driven up turbine prices about 20 percent since
about July 2007.

In the U.S., public opposition to offshore wind farms that may
obstruct panoramic views is such a big obstacle that none have been
built. The Cape Wind project in Nantucket Sound off the coast of
Massachusetts has been stymied by lawsuits.
...
the vast natural wind tunnel that is Dabancheng, the gales that roar
between the snow-capped mountain ridges get so strong that trains have
been gusted off railway tracks and lorries overturned.

Such is the ferocity of the elements that police sometimes have to
stop the traffic that passes through this arid, six-mile-wide plain on
what was once part of the Silk Road. That used to be bad for business
in Xinjiang, the most westerly region of China, which formerly
depended on the trade route between central Asia and the densely
populated cities in the far east.

Today, however, the gales themselves have become big business in
Dabancheng. The area is home to one of Asia's biggest wind farms and a
pioneer in a Chinese industry that is forecast to lead the world by
the end of next year.

From the road, 118 giant turbines are visible miles before you reach
them. Tourists stop for pictures, hair blowing as they pose near the
whirring towers.

At the end of last year, China had 6 gigawatts of installed wind power
generating capacity, covering 202 projects. Another 445 sites have
been targeted for development in the near future - according to data
from Azure International, a consultancy in Beijing.

We went inside one of the taller towers to a small room with computers
controlling the direction of the 68-metre-high turbine. The sound of
the whirring blades vibrated through the enclosed chamber as Li
pointed to the readings: Wind speed 10.4km per hour (6.4mph), power
generation 1,000 kilowatts.

"This is the future in China," said Li. "Everyone is opting for big
turbines. It is more economic to have one 1,500 kw turbine than two
750kw turbines and the maintenance costs are lower."

But even this will soon be trumped. At Jiuquan in Gansu province, the
ground has been broken for what could one day be the world's biggest
wind farm.

Even the first phase - to be completed by 2010 - will add 3.8
gigawatts, more than the wind generating capacity of the entire
country at the end of 2006. When the project is finished, it will be
almost three times bigger and linked up to a "wind energy corridor"
through Gansu which will be connected to an expanded national grid.

In addition to the current 6 gigawatts of generating capacity, Azure
estimates that a staggering 130 gigawatts is in the pipeline in China.

Established turbine manufacturers continue to ramp up production even
as new entrants try to squeeze their way into the market. If all of
their plans are added together, China's new production capacity could
surge to 11 gigawatts this year - almost three times the amount
installed last year.

This year, the big five utilities are bleeding money because coal
costs have been steadily rising. They cannot pass costs on to their
customers because of government regulation of power prices.

Even so, wind energy produces a kilowatt-hour of electricity at about
twice the cost of a Chinese coal-fired power plant. Even with the
recent price rises, coal remains king in China. To meet the demands of
the fast growing economy, power plants and factories burn 2bn tonnes
of coal each year, about a third of the world's total.

This is why China has overtaken the US as the biggest emitter of
greenhouse gases and it is unlikely to fall back to second place for
decades.
BradGuth - 27 Jul 2008 18:46 GMT
Mass produced wind turbines and all that's necessary is relatively
dirt cheap at not 10% the all-inclusive and birth-to-grave cost of
modern nuclear energy, and perhaps still a good forth the cost of
going with the likes of those failsafe thorium reactors.

If folks can't independently think inside the box, then by all means
forget about thinking the least bit outside the box.

-     Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

> Why not build funnels to channel the wind as in China below?
>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> greenhouse gases and it is unlikely to fall back to second place for
> decades.
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 28 Jul 2008 18:45 GMT
In sci.physics habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
>         Why not build funnels to channel the wind as in China below?

No one built "funnels", you idiot, those are mountain passes.

Read this about the wonders of wind power:

"Thousands of homeowners may see the value of their properties plummet
after a court ruled that living near a wind farm decreases house prices."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/07/26/eawind126.xml

Build a wind farm, make your home worthless.

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zzbunker@netscape.net - 29 Jul 2008 01:26 GMT
On Jul 28, 1:45 pm, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics habshi <hab...@anony.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Build a wind farm, make your home worthless.

  But the way idiot courts rule about property value is why
  cruise missiles,  computers, solar energy arrays, and robots were
invented,
  So it propably only makes a difference to idiots stupid enough
  to live in New York anyway.

> --
> Jim Pennino
>
> Remove .spam.sux to reply.
habshi - 29 Jul 2008 23:53 GMT
Just as the efficient solar cells funnel the rays with mirrors
towards the collectors , so we should be able to funnel wind towards
the windmills.
    What about my flying matteresses ? If they could be stiff
enough and be held at 45 degree angles , they could funnel wind
towards the rotating blades.
    So they could be brought and held down when its still , and
when its windy , these mattresses containing a partial vacuum would
fly up the 100 meters to funnel the wind from any direction.