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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / July 2007



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Re: Lasers are predictable so meters and seconds are the same thing.

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Tom Potter - 29 Jul 2007 05:31 GMT
"Jeff?Relf" <Jeff_Relf@Yahoo.COM> wrote in message
news:Jeff_Relf_2007_Jul_22__8_11_AY@Cotse.NET...
> Time only seems directional when you can't predict the future,
> otherwise you see it for what it is: The fourth spatial dimension.
>
> For example:
> Lasers are predictable so meters and seconds are the same thing.
> Planetary orbits are predictable so they're modeled as
> an --> immobile <-- hyper volume ( a.k.a. spacetime, 4-D ).
>
> The history of mankind boils down to this one solitary notion:
> " Without ignorance, there is no randomness. ".
>
> Ignorant, we " perceive " entropy in the cosmos as it
> spontaneously, irrevocably cools and dissipates,
> creating, maintaining and destroying all that is or ever was.
>
> Cosmic Entropy ( a.k.a. dark energy ) is Thee God Almighty;
> lesser gods ( e.g. landlords ) mimic this " action ".
>
> Each of us are trapped in this virtual casino,
> losing it all to the house, in time.
>
> Although you won the jack-pot, T.J.,
> consuming more still means dying that much sooner.
>
> Speaking of General Relativity,
> Einstein in " Ether and the Theory of Relativity " ( 1920 )
> ( http://TUHH.DE/rzt/rzt/it/Ether.html ) said:
>
> " But this ether may not be thought of as
>  endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media,
>  as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time.
>
>  The idea of motion may not be applied to it. ".

Too bad Einstein didn't also point out
that so-called photons also

"may not be thought of as ..
consisting of parts which may be tracked through time."

--
Tom Potter

*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
*** May 2007 Anti-Bigot Award ***
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Sam Wormley - 29 Jul 2007 05:40 GMT
> Too bad Einstein didn't also point out
> that so-called photons also

  I'm going to help you with your education, Potter, about
  Einstein and photons. On 17 March in 1905 - three
  days after his 26th birthday - Einstein submitted a paper
  titled "A heuristic point of view concerning the
  production and transformation of light" to Annalen der
  Physik.

  Einstein suggested that, from a thermodynamic
  perspective, light can be described as if it consists of
  independent quanta of energy (Ann. Phys., Lpz 17
  132-148).

  This hypothesis, which had been tentatively proposed by
  Max Planck a few years earlier, directly challenged the
  deeply ingrained wave picture of light. However, Einstein
  was able to use the idea to explain certain puzzles about
  the way that light or other electromagnetic radiation
  ejected electrons from a metal via the photoelectric
  effect.

  Maxwell's electrodynamics could not, for example, explain
  why the energy of the ejected photoelectrons depended
  only on the frequency of the incident light and not on
  the intensity. However, this phenomenon was easy to
  understand if light of a certain frequency actually
  consisted of discrete packets or photons all with the
  same energy.

  Einstein would go on to receive the 1921 Nobel Prize for
  Physics for this work, although the official citation
  stated that the prize was also awarded "for his services
  to theoretical physics".

  "The arguments Einstein used in the photoelectric and
  subsequent radiation theory are staggering in their
  boldness and beauty," says Frank Wilczek, a theorist at
  the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who shared the
  2004 Nobel Prize for Physics.

  "He put forward revolutionary ideas that both inspired
  decisive experimental work and helped launch quantum
  theory." Although not fully appreciated at the time,
  Einstein's work on the quantum nature of light was the
  first step towards establishing the wave-particle duality
  of quantum particles.
Tom Potter - 29 Jul 2007 14:56 GMT
> > Too bad Einstein didn't also point out
> > that so-called photons also
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>    ejected electrons from a metal via the photoelectric
>    effect.

Sam makes a good point when he points out that
after Max Planck informed the world of the FACT
that electro-magnetic radiation was conveyed in
quanta of ACTION,

that Einstein came along and screwed up the works,
and now most people believe the urban legend that
light (The visual portion of the electro.magnetic spectrum.)
is conveyed in quanta of energy.

As folks knowledgeable in physics know,
although electro-magnetic events ALWAYS occur in
units of ACTION, the energy involved in an interaction
is a function of the relative velocity between
the source and the sink.

Einstein, like most people,
was confused by the fact that
when a unit of ACTION acts on an atom
that has zero velocity relative to an observer
that there is a 1.0000 correlation between
the ACTION and the energy.

Note that when emitting atoms are moving
with respect to an observer,
as they are from stars and in most cases,
although there is a one to one correspondence between
the quanta of ACTION emitted
and the quanta of ACTION received,
the energy can vary considerably.

For example, if a body is moving away from the
observer, there is a "red shift",
and if a body is moving toward the observer,
there is a "blue shift".

I might also point out to Sam, that
the wave picture of light was NOT
a deeply ingrained picture,
but that Epicurus, Lucretius, Newton, Maxwell
and many others considered that light was conveyed
as particles, and modern science has found that
Nature can best be modeled as wave like in some cases,
and particle like in some cases.

It is sad that so many folks have been brainwashed to believe
that events are conveyed in quanta of energy,
and that Einstein screwed up Planck's works.

I suggest that Sam download and read Planck's
Nobel Prize lecture, where he talks about
quanta of ACTION, the first and the REAL quanta.

--
Tom Potter

*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
*** May 2007 Anti-Bigot Award ***
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Sam Wormley - 29 Jul 2007 15:12 GMT
>>> Too bad Einstein didn't also point out
>>> that so-called photons also
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> light (The visual portion of the electro.magnetic spectrum.)
> is conveyed in quanta of energy.

  There's more, Potter... it most often called the "quantum mechanics".
  It's an even more successful theory that general relativity--more
  successful in terms of measured accuracy and fruitful. Just look at
  the modern electronics industry... lasers, semiconductors, large scale
  integration, atomic clocks... all products of the quantum mechanics.

  Bluster on, Potter. Bluster some more.
Tom Potter - 30 Jul 2007 11:25 GMT
> Tom Potterwrote:
> >>Tom Potterwrote:
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I would like to thank Sam
for asking me to comment on the development of
the electronic industry.

Sam, basically what drives invention are
need, technology and "effects".

People observe and catalog the
"effects" they encounter,
and when they are confronted with a need,
they use the existing technology,
to juggle the "effects"
to navigate from some input "effect"
to the desired output "effect".

Models are basically a mapping of "effects",
and sometimes serve as a takeoff point
to invention, but it is more direct,
and usually more cost and time efficient
to navigate from effect to effect,
rather than from model to the desired effect.

To address your assertion:
"the modern electronics industry... lasers, semiconductors, large
scale
integration, atomic clocks... all products of the quantum mechanics."

the chain of effects that lead to semiconductors went like this.

1. In 1880, Edison discovered the "Edison Effect"
when he placed a conductor inside of one of his lamps,
to monitor the output of electrical generators
that were causing his lamps to flicker.

This device is now known as the "diode",
and lead to the discovery of the electron
by J. J. Thomson in 1887,

2. In 1906 Greenleaf Whittier Pickard patented
a crystal version of Edison's "diode" detector,
called a "cat's whisker". The cat's whisker" diode
didn't amplify, but it was a much more sensitive
"detector" that other detectors.

3. In 1906, Lee Deforrest added a "control grid"
between the electron emitter "cathode"
and the electron collector "plate".
thus inventing the "triode" which provided
a means for amplifying weak electrical signals.

4. In 1925 Julius Edgar Lilienfeld patented
a "field effect transistor" which was basically
a solid sate version of the triode,
combined with the "cat's whisker" idea.

5. In 1945, after WWI, and after Lilienfeld's patents expired,
Bell Labs hacked the point contact, germanium transistor.
which was based on the "cat's whisker" diode,
and the triode, and others followed up
adopting Lilienfeld's field effect approach.

Note that as AT&T was by far the largest electronic based
company,  and needed billions of audio amplifiers,
it was in AT&T's best interests to wait for the transistor
patents to expire before "inventing" their own.

AT&T then licensed a number of companies
to use the patent they got on this device.

6. Texas Instruments, a small, unknown company in Texas,
got a license, and they got the idea to create the
"control grid", not by sticking a "cat whisker" into the crystal,
but by changing the qualities of a surface in the crystal by
"doping" the crystal with impurities. In other words, they
added the "control grid" by doping, rather than by point contact.

Texas Instrument, led by an ENGINEER, rather than a physicist,
managed to create the first silicon, junction transistors.
These had many advantages over the point contact transistors,
and of course Texas Instruments made billions of dollars.

7. TI, and others, notably Fairchild, got the idea,
that with all this space laying around unused,
why not put more than one transistor on a crystal,
and they did. They also got the idea to "dope" the
crystals to add resistance and capacitance,
and these devices were called "integrated circuits."

Now the race was on to put more and more
devices (Transistors, resistors and capacitors)
on a single crystal, but the problem was not the
idea, it was the technology. There was a certain
probability of a particular component failing, and the more
components you put on a single crystal, the more
likely the device was to fail. So the problem boiled
down to growing more pure crystals, to be able to
precisely put the "doping" where you wanted it, etc.
Slowly, as advances were made in many areas,
it became possible to put more and more
components onto a single crystal.

Note that all of these advances were made by
engineers, production people, clean room people,
people from the printing and optical industries, etc.
No knowledge of quantum mechanics was used in this pursuit.
Just plain hard, slow progress.

8. At this point, many kinds of "integrated circuits" were
manufactured, audio amplifiers, gates, flip flops, etc.
and a new company was formed to try to make
a complex, programmable kind of integrated circuit
for a communication application.

Whereas the previous devices were logic blocks
that had to be assembled onto
a printed circuit, the Intel device was internally programmable,
so if you wanted to change the logic of a circuit,
you didn't have to make a whole new board, you
could just reprogram the integrated circuit itself.

This device (The Intel 4040) was called a micro-processor.
Although the 4040 was not a commercial success, Intel made a more
powerful chip called the 8080, and after a television service
magazine
ran an article on it, folks all over the nation began trying to
use it to make their own personal computers.
Soon a few companies, including Altair, MITS, and Apple
began to make personal computers to sell to the public,
and it wasn't long before Sinclair, Radio Shack, Commodore, TI,
and eventually IBM got on the bandwagon.

Note Sam, that what a model does is try to
come up with some way of expressing a set of "effects"
in a compact, and hopefully useful way.

Also note that General Relativity
is a very compact way to express a lot of "effects",
as long as one is willing to hack the model
using a set of Classical Physics models such
as "the Galileo Effect", the "Doppler Effect",
thermal, pressure, effects, etc.,
but note that it is not a very useful model.

I might also point out Sam, that the best models
will eventually be based on bulletproof, easy to comprehend,
structured, top-down, computer-languages,
rather than on esoteric maths,
or computer languages like APL or Forth.

Pardon my "blustering" Sam,
but I just wanted to toss in a little electronic history,
to counter the Urban Legends.

--
Tom Potter

*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
*** May 2007 Anti-Bigot Award ***
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Sam Wormley - 30 Jul 2007 13:46 GMT
>> Tom Potterwrote:
>>>> Tom Potterwrote:
[quoted text clipped - 187 lines]
> but I just wanted to toss in a little electronic history,
> to counter the Urban Legends.

  Nice verification of ignorance concerning the role of quantum mechanics
  in the development of electronics, Mr. Potter.
Tom Potter - 30 Jul 2007 15:03 GMT
> Tom Potterwrote:
> >> Tom Potterwrote:
[quoted text clipped - 193 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's
point contact transistors ever made,
when I worked for the Burroughs Corporation
and the Bendix Corporations,

and when I worked for Hewlett-Packard,
I knew and worked with the R&D departments
of Texas Instruments and Fairchild
when they were new in the semiconductor business,

and I attended the first microprocessor meetings
in Philadelphia and Atlantic City,
and owned one of the first computer stores in the world.

And I might add, that when I was with Hewlett-Packard,
they were doing original research on LED's and atomic clocks,
and I attended seminars on the subjects.

What background do you have
that negates my experiences?

Or if you have no background in electronics,
and were not in close contact with the R&D departments,
why don't you explain your version of how the field of electronics
developed?

I think that would be good for laughs.

--
Tom Potter

*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
*** May 2007 Anti-Bigot Award ***
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Sam Wormley - 30 Jul 2007 15:18 GMT
> Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's
> point contact transistors ever made,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> they were doing original research on LED's and atomic clocks,
> and I attended seminars on the subjects.

  I'm glad you were gainfully employed, Potter, so your tax dollars
  could help pay for some of the grant money I received. Someday I
  hope you appreciate the role of quantum mechanics in the development
  of electronics--you seemed to have missed that in all those seminars
  you attended.
Tom Potter - 31 Jul 2007 04:43 GMT
>> Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's
>> point contact transistors ever made,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>   of electronics--you seemed to have missed that in all those seminars
>   you attended.

Sam, no doubt Quantum Mechanics is a useful tool,
but it did not play the central role in the development
of electronics that you try to convey.

If you are trying to con folks into thinking that
a stress analysis grunt like you,
did research on microprocessors,
why don't you post references to some of your papers?

I think that would be good for laughs.

I think you have been sniffing a little too much Eastman 910.

--
Tom Potter

*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
*** May 2007 Anti-Bigot Award ***
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Sam Wormley - 31 Jul 2007 07:07 GMT
>>> Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's
>>> point contact transistors ever made,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> I think you have been sniffing a little too much Eastman 910.

  That pretty funny coming from a guy who doesn't give Boltzmann and
  Gibbs their due with respect to dimensional analysis, Potter.
Eric Gisse - 31 Jul 2007 07:13 GMT
> >> Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's
> >> point contact transistors ever made,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> but it did not play the central role in the development
> of electronics that you try to convey.

Intellectually dishonest, as usual.

The development of the first transistor wasn't helped along by QM, but
explaining how it works is impossible without appealing to QM.
Furthermore, all electronics in the 21st century and for most of the
20th has been based upon quantum theory.

Remember the tunnel diode? Zener diode? Those are QM's babies.

[...]
Y.Porat - 31 Jul 2007 09:42 GMT
> > "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

-----------
psychoapth

---------------------
Eric Gisse - 31 Jul 2007 10:42 GMT
> > > "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> -----------
> psychoapth

You actually got all the letters in the word this time! Now you need
to put them in the right order...

> ---------------------
Y.Porat - 31 Jul 2007 09:47 GMT
> > Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's
> > point contact transistors ever made,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

------------
in our world there are producers
and ther are parasites
th e  worst of them are
pompous parasites !......
oh yes i forgot
there is a middle class--
aprrots .....

Y.P
----------------
hanson - 31 Jul 2007 16:34 GMT
Sam Wormley <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote:

[Tom Potter]
Sam, I used some of the first RCA ck722's point contact
transistors ever made, when I worked for the Burroughs,
Bendix Corporations,  Hewlett-Packard, ... the R&D depts
of Texas Instruments and Fairchild when they were new
in the semiconductor business, and I attended the first
microprocessor meetings in Philadelphia and Atlantic City,
and owned one of the first computer stores in the world.
... when I was with Hewlett-Packard, they were doing original
research on LED's and atomic clocks, and I attended seminars
on the subjects. [Neither Einstein nor QM were ever mentionned]

[Sam Wormley]
I'm glad you were gainfully employed, Potter, so your tax dollars
could help pay for some of the grant money I received.
Someday I hope you appreciate the role of quantum mechanics
in the development of electronics--you seemed to have missed
that in all those seminars.

[Yehiel]
in our world there are producers and there are parasites
the  worst of them are pompous parasites !......
oh yes I forgot there is a middle class parrots .....

[hanson]
Sam, Yehi seems to have the tune right here about pompous
parasites. Student Varney was the first to brag here how proud
he was to be dependant on public assistance.  But when you
parrot that same notion too... as a teacher... well.... ahahaha..
.... So, let us pray for more manna from taxpayers heaven:

-------------- Dingleberries' ode to Einstein --------------
* Albert, oh, Load , let me be your Dingleberry, close to your
* sphincter, so that thru its warmth I will not be led into the
* temptation to see and believe that your Commands and
* Psalms are just ordinary tales and descriptions of nature,
* stories that will not put neither bread nor wine on my table
* no matter how fishy your theories are... Praise the Load!

Thanks for they laughs, guys!... ahahahaha... ahahahanson
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 30 Jul 2007 15:04 GMT
<snip crap>

>    Nice verification of ignorance concerning the role of quantum mechanics
>    in the development of electronics, Mr. Potter.

I don't see his stuff unless someone quotes him, but to paraphrase...

It is interesting to note Potter's ignorance has remained unabated
over the years and is unaware of the fact that engineers generally
have to take a fair number of physics courses.

Signature

Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Tom Potter - 31 Jul 2007 04:42 GMT
> <snip crap>
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> --
> Jim Pennino

As can be seen,
Jimmy is still sulking over the following post:

Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:44:39 +0800
Local: Sun, Aug 20 2006 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: Are physics cranks employed?

> <j...@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
> news:3mokr3-iqe.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> | were left scratching their head's in amazement that a problem that
> | baffeled them for days was solved in about 15 minutes.

> So what you are saying is your job did not require your training
> for 10 years, you were a whatever for that time and it took you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> completed 10 years on-the-job training.
> Androcles

I think that Jim Pennino is bullshitting.

I challenge him to post the "problem he solved in 15 minutes",
and the approach he took,
so folks can discuss how to best solve the "problem",
and can critique Jim Pennino's approach.

Frankly, I think Jim Pennino made the whole thing up.

--
Tom Potter

=================

--
Tom Potter

*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
*** May 2007 Anti-Bigot Award ***
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp
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Eric Gisse - 31 Jul 2007 04:56 GMT
[...]

What makes you think you could understand it, retired salesman?

You constantly tell people to put up or shut up, and when they do, you
run away.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/72ba55f8bf3f3b56?dmode
=source


I provided exactly what I claimed I could do when you asked, and you
refused to actually discuss it. Par for the course for someone whose
lifetime has been spent bullshitting other people.
 
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