ScienceNOW Daily News: The Ozone Layer's Unwelcome Return?
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Sam Wormley - 13 Jun 2008 19:11 GMT The Ozone Layer's Unwelcome Return? http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/612/2
By Phil Berardelli ScienceNOW Daily News 12 June 2008
Once greeted as good news, the recovery of the ozone layer is increasingly seen as a mixed blessing. In April, researchers found that a healing ozone hole could amplify global warming by trapping more heat in the atmosphere (ScienceNOW, 24 April). And in tomorrow's issue of Science, climatologists report that ozone recovery could disrupt wind patterns in the Southern Hemisphere, potentially leading to a warming of Antarctica. The findings suggest that actions taken by humans to protect the planet from the harmful effects of solar radiation could accelerate climate change on the frozen continent. Ever since most nations signed the 1987 Montreal Protocol, which banned the manufacture of ozone-destroying chemicals called chlorofluorocarbons, the fragile ozone layer has been set on a slow path to recovery. The layer's return to health is estimated to take another 60 years. By then, the so-called ozone hole should no longer appear over Antarctica every polar spring and persist until autumn. And the cancer-causing ultraviolet (UV) rays that ozone filters out of sunlight will largely be blocked from hitting the surface.
But there's a catch. The appearance of the ozone hole actually created a unique wind pattern called the Southern Annular Mode (SAM), which prevents warmer air from reaching Antarctica. The pattern results from two competing conditions: a cooling of the stratosphere, 12 to 50 kilometers above Earth's surface, due to the depletion of its heat-absorbing ozone layer; and a warming troposphere, which lies below the stratosphere and which has seen its temperature rise thanks to greenhouse-gas accumulation.
As the ozone hole recovers, the stratosphere will once again warm up over the Southern Hemisphere, with unpredictable effects on SAM. In the new study, an international team of researchers compared standard climate change computer models with newer versions that take atmospheric chemistry into account. The comparison showed that ozone-induced stratospheric warming could reduce the role of SAM in blocking tropical air from migrating to the pole. That's worrisome, the team says, because the wind pattern affects, among other things, the Southern Hemisphere's climate, the extent of its sea ice, the variability of its storm tracks, and its patterns of rainfall and drought.
Monitoring ozone's effects will be critical to making future climate change predictions, says atmospheric scientist Judith Perlwitz of the University of Colorado, Boulder. As to how a dwindling SAM will affect Antarctica, Perlwitz says it's impossible to know exactly what will happen: "We can't draw conclusions right now."
dlzc - 13 Jun 2008 21:07 GMT Dear Sam Wormley:
...
> Monitoring ozone's effects will be critical to making > future climate change predictions, says atmospheric [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > know exactly what will happen: "We can't draw > conclusions right now." Don't worry. The natural decay of ozone with time increases with increasing temperature, as do all the rate constants for those things that either catalytically destroy ozone or are consumed by it. And additional heating will (eventually) loft more water vapor, further negatively feeding back.
It is funny though...
David A. Smith
tadchem - 13 Jun 2008 21:36 GMT > Dear Sam Wormley: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > David A. Smith First we are told that the hole in the ozone will destroy the planet, so we abandon our affordable refrigerants and buy the pricey "alternatives" because they are not "ozone depleting substances".
A few years pass, the ozone hole doesn't change - it keeps coming and going like it always has since "Dobson units" were invented - and everybody forgets about it while "global warming" becomes the great media and political bogeyman.
Now that it is becoming evident that a lot of respectable scientists and others didn't drink the Green Kool-Aid, and matured into "global warming deniers", we need a new bogeyman for the Socialists and ex- Communists (neo-Fascists all) to use to scare us all and intimidate us into giving them more power and a lot of money to "solve" the problem for us.
Why not take the old "ozone layer" and dust it off, make it the new bogeyman, and plant the seeds of a new paranoia?
Tom Davidson Richmond, VA
hanson - 13 Jun 2008 22:22 GMT On Jun 13, 11:11 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...@mchsi.com> cited in news:qLy4k.152615$TT4.145861@attbi_s22... <http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/612/2> " Once greeted as good news, the recovery of the ozone layer/ hole could amplify global warming by trapping more heat in the atmosphere (ScienceNOW, 24 April). Science, climatologists report that ozone recovery could disrupt wind patterns in the Southern Hemisphere, potentially leading to a warming of Antarctica. The appearance of the ozone hole actually created a unique wind pattern called the Southern Annular Mode (SAM), with unpredictable effects on SAM. That's worrisome... says atmospheric scientist Judith Perlwitz of the University of Colorado, Boulder: "We can't draw conclusions right now."
On Jun 13, 4:07 pm, dlzc <dl...@cox.net> wrote: Don't worry. The natural decay of ozone with time increases with increasing temperature, as do all the rate constants for those things that either catalytically destroy ozone or are consumed by it. And additional heating will (eventually) loft more water vapor, further negatively feeding back. It is funny though... === David A. Smith
"tadchem" <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote First we are told that the hole in the ozone will destroy the planet, so we abandon our affordable refrigerants and buy the pricey "alternatives" because they are not "ozone depleting substances".
A few years pass, the ozone hole doesn't change - it keeps coming and going like it always has since "Dobson units" were invented - and everybody forgets about it while "global warming" becomes the great media and political bogeyman.
Now that it is becoming evident that a lot of respectable scientists and others didn't drink the Green Kool-Aid, and matured into "global warming deniers", we need a new bogeyman for the Socialists and ex- Communists (neo-Fascists all) to use to scare us all and intimidate us into giving them more power and a lot of money to "solve" the problem for us.
Why not take the old "ozone layer" and dust it off, make it the new bogeyman, and plant the seeds of a new paranoia?
> Tom Davidson, Richmond, VA hanson wrote: .... ahahaha... AHAHAHA... Don't worry. It's all in the script. It's all covered and protected by the edicts of the green Bible that says:
Green Genesis: 1 "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people = believe is true. -- Paul Watson, Sea Shepard/ex-Greenpeace, &... 2 "A lot of environmental [sci/soc/pol] messages are simply not = accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and... 3 "If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then .... make it = up on the spot... for the mass-media today... the truth is irrelevant." = -- Paul Watson in Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy.
Revelations: 4 "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little = mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest." = -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as = a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer) 5 "to attract great funding you have to scare the public by making = things bigger and more dangerous than they really are." = --Petr Chylek, Prof. Atmospheric Sci., Dalhousie Uni, Halifax 6 "Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the = right thing" -- Sen.Tim Wirth, Admin of Ted Turner's $1Billion UN-gift. 7 "No matter if the science is all phony, Climate change [provides] = equality in the world." -- Christine Stewart, Can. Enviro Minister 8 "It is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presen- = tations" -- Al Gore, Chairman, Gen. Investment Management Bank
Eric Gisin expressed his vision slightly different. Said Eric: "f.cking Greens should be shot for making the world so stupid". http://groups.google.com/group/alt.org.sierra-club/msg/5bf027613f44f4fa
Unfortunately, there is no test for stupidity, rationality, nor intelligence for being a Green sh.t. So, all Greenies pass... happily singeing their pinko-green L'interantionale: ==== "It's green, green, green ==== on the far side of the hill ==== and when we get the carbon tax ==== life will be greener still... Thanks for the laughs, y'all... ahaha... ahahahanson
Tunderbar - 13 Jun 2008 22:25 GMT > On Jun 13, 11:11 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...@mchsi.com> > cited innews:qLy4k.152615$TT4.145861@attbi_s22... [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > ==== life will be greener still... > Thanks for the laughs, y'all... ahaha... ahahahanson You know who was involved at center stage in the Great Ozone Layer Scare? Susan Solomon.
You know who is now involved at high levels of the IPCC on the Great Global Warming Scare? Susan Solomon.
How many times will she and other activists cry wolf before we all see it for the fraud it that it is?
Tunderbar - 13 Jun 2008 22:28 GMT > > "tadchem" <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > - Show quoted text - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Solomon
V for Vendicar - 02 Jul 2008 04:35 GMT "Tunderbar" <tdcomeau@gmail.com> wrote < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Solomon
Susan Solomon (born 1956 in Chicago)[1] is an atmospheric chemist working for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.[2] Solomon was one of the first to propose chlorofluorocarbons as the cause of the Antarctic ozone hole.[2]
Solomon is a member of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the European Academy of Sciences, and the Academy of Sciences of France.[3]
Oh My Gawd, She really is a f.cking Science Commie.
V for Vendicar - 02 Jul 2008 04:34 GMT > You know who was involved at center stage in the Great Ozone Layer > Scare? Susan Solomon. > > You know who is now involved at high levels of the IPCC on the Great > Global Warming Scare? Susan Solomon. Oh my Gawd, it really is a Global Conspiracy among the worlds scientists to intall a one world - new world order - "Gubberment", headed by the U.N. and with Lucifer on it's throne.
Androcles - 14 Jun 2008 00:15 GMT | On Jun 13, 11:11 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...@mchsi.com> | cited in news:qLy4k.152615$TT4.145861@attbi_s22... [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] | ==== life will be greener still... | Thanks for the laughs, y'all... ahaha... ahahahanson The buck is greener on the other side. That's why the call them greenbacks. This whole green shenanigan started with the Anti-Gaia hypothesis, a theory that James Lovelock CH, CBE, FRS could make more money if the Earth didn't change. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lovelock
"After the development of his electron capture detector in the late 1960s, Lovelock was the first to detect the widespread presence of CFCs in the atmosphere[4]. He found a concentration of 60 parts per trillion of CFC-11 over Ireland and, in a partially self-funded research expedition in 1972, went on to measure the concentration of CFC-11 from the northern hemisphere to the Antarctic aboard the research vessel RV Shackleton.
Wackypedia then incorrectly reports:
He found the gas in each of the 50 air samples that he collected but, not knowing of the risk that chlorine posed to the ozone layer, incorrectly concluded that the level of CFCs constituted "no conceivable hazard".
What does ozone do? It blocks sunlight from creating ozone out of oxygen. What does the hole do? It allows sunlight in to create ozone. That's a perfectly normal negative feedback system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback
What is REALLY funny is that there is no hole in equatorial regions where sunlight blocking ozone is needed and the sun's rays are most intense, having the least amount of atmosphere to penetrate.
Forest fires from lightning strikes have been with us since there were forests, yet man has to put them out to save the trees, building up a huge backlog of dead wood until the fire is so huge he can't put it out. If you dam the stream you'll make a lake and the village will have a water supply that you can pipe into every home and save people from going to the stream for water. If the dam bursts you'll lose the village.
It even works in politics, the baby-kissing do-gooder you elected 8 years ago has to be booted out, he's now a paedophile still kissing the same kid and a new baby-kissing do-gooder has to replace him to save the world from doing what is has been doing for the last 65 million years.
 Signature Androcles
Why did Einstein say the speed of light from A to B is c-v, the speed of light from B to A is c+v, the "time" each way is the same?
1/2[tau(A)+tau(A')]= tau(B) where A = (0,0,0,t) A' =(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v) +x'/(c+v)) B = (x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)) x' = x-vt
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif
"Easy: he did NOT say that." - cretin harald.vanlintelButNotThis@epfl.ch According to moron van lintel, Einstein did not write the equation he wrote.
Patriot Game - 14 Jun 2008 03:07 GMT Androcles <Headmaster@Hogwarts.physics> wrote:
> 1/2[tau(A)+tau(A')]= tau(B) > where > A = (0,0,0,t) > A' =(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v) +x'/(c+v)) > B = (x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)) > x' = x-vt Please explain the above in basic terms.
And don't cut and paste Albert if you are out of your league.
Androcles - 14 Jun 2008 04:35 GMT | > 1/2[tau(A)+tau(A')]= tau(B) | > where [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | > | Please explain the above in basic terms. Certainly. In basic terms it says: the speed of light from A to B is c-v, the speed of light from B to A is c+v, the "time" each way is the same; but written in the shorthand of algebra.
The f.cking idiot Einstein said it and I asked why.
Hence I already did as you asked before I broke down Einstein's equation that you stupidly snipped.
| And don't cut and paste Albert if you are out of your league. I'm not out of anyone's league, little ignorant and stupid punk, you and the cretin Albert are out of MY league.
 Signature Androcles
Why did Einstein say the speed of light from A to B is c-v, the speed of light from B to A is c+v, the "time" each way is the same?
1/2[tau(A)+tau(A')]= tau(B) where A = (0,0,0,t) A' =(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v) +x'/(c+v)) B = (x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)) x' = x-vt
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif
"Easy: he did NOT say that." - cretin harald.vanlintelButNotThis@epfl.ch According to moron van lintel, Einstein did not write the equation he wrote.
hanson - 14 Jun 2008 05:30 GMT AHAHAHAHAHAHA... ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... Andro, but least this "Pat riot game" was better then the earlier responses from the Einstein Dingleberries who where so f.cking stupid to say "Einstein didn't say that". You should ask "Pat riot" to answer it. He is itching to explain the mystery to you and shine. Encourage him! ahahaha... AHAHAHAHA....Thanks for the laughs!
> | > 1/2[tau(A)+tau(A')]= tau(B) > | > where [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'm not out of anyone's league, little ignorant and stupid punk, you and > the cretin Albert are out of MY league. Androcles - 14 Jun 2008 11:24 GMT | AHAHAHAHAHAHA... ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... | Andro, but least this "Pat riot game" was better then the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | explain the mystery to you and shine. Encourage him! | ahahaha... AHAHAHAHA....Thanks for the laughs! The clown imagines changing his name will disguise who he is, that's the funny part.
If you go to <File><Properties><Details> you get all this as well, not that I usually bother, but it's an open book. It's just as easy to answer the idiot and then plonk the silly bastard.
Path: s01-b008!cyclone03.ams!news.ams.newshosting.com!npeersf02.ams!newsfe13.ams2.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: "Androcles" <Headmaster@Hogwarts.physics> Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.chem,sci.environment,alt.global-warming References: <qLy4k.152615$TT4.145861@attbi_s22> <0c6e8b33-9da6-44e5-a1b4-70a719dfd83f@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com> <d6f6e6a9-d95a-4912-a755-d434eff97ed0@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <4yB4k.20$TL6.16@trnddc01> <hcD4k.167374$zc6.9113@newsfe29.ams2> <MPG.22bcf1e58fcd3a2698ab18@news.individual.net> Subject: Re: ScienceNOW Daily News: The Ozone Layer's Unwelcome Return? Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Message-ID: <41H4k.126985$%B6.70914@newsfe13.ams2> NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.34.70.125 X-Complaints-To: http://netreport.virginmedia.com X-Trace: newsfe13.ams2 1213414592 82.34.70.125 (Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:36:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:36:32 EDT Organization: virginmedia.com Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 04:35:54 +0100 Xref: Hurricane-Charley sci.physics:640918 sci.chem:137336 sci.environment:303507 alt.global-warming:239625 X-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:36:33 Local time zone must be set--see zic manual page (s01-b008)
| > | > 1/2[tau(A)+tau(A')]= tau(B) | > | > where [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] | > I'm not out of anyone's league, little ignorant and stupid punk, you and | > the cretin Albert are out of MY league. chemist - 14 Jun 2008 05:38 GMT " Once greeted as good news, the recovery of the ozone layer/ hole could amplify global warming by trapping more heat in the atmosphere (ScienceNOW, 24 April). Science, climatologists report that ozone recovery could disrupt wind patterns in the Southern Hemisphere, potentially leading to a warming of Antarctica. The appearance of the ozone hole actually created a unique wind pattern called the Southern Annular Mode (SAM), with unpredictable effects on SAM. That's worrisome... says atmospheric scientist Judith Perlwitz of the University of Colorado, Boulder: "We can't draw conclusions right now."
The increase in SAM has nothing to to do with the Ozone Hole and everything to do with increasing temperature differentials.
hanson - 14 Jun 2008 06:03 GMT "hanson" <han...@quick.net> CITED/QUOTED from: <http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/612/2> " Once greeted as good news, the recovery of the ozone layer/ hole could amplify global warming by trapping more heat in the atmosphere (ScienceNOW, 24 April). Science, climatologists report that ozone recovery could disrupt wind patterns in the Southern Hemisphere, potentially leading to a warming of Antarctica. The appearance of the ozone hole actually created a unique wind
> pattern called the Southern Annular Mode (SAM), with unpredictable effects on SAM. That's worrisome... says atmospheric scientist Judith Perlwitz of the University of Colorado, Boulder: "We can't draw conclusions right now."
"chemist" <tom-bolger@ntlworld.com> wrote The increase in SAM has nothing to to do with the Ozone Hole and everything to do with increasing temperature differentials.
hanson wrote: ... ahahahaha.. if so, Tom, then these O3-hole researchers are classical examples executing the edicts of their Green Bible that says:
1 "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people = believe is true. -- Paul Watson, Sea Shepard/ex-Greenpeace, &... 2 "A lot of environmental [sci/soc/pol] messages are simply not = accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and... 3 "If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then .... make it = up on the spot... for the mass-media today... the truth is irrelevant." = -- Paul Watson in Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy. 4 "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little = mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest." = -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as = a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer) 5 "to attract great funding you have to scare the public by making = things bigger and more dangerous than they really are." = --Petr Chylek, Prof. Atmospheric Sci., Dalhousie Uni, Halifax 6 "Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the = right thing" -- Sen.Tim Wirth, Admin of Ted Turner's $1Billion UN-gift. 7 "No matter if the science is all phony, Climate change [provides] = equality in the world." -- Christine Stewart, Can. Enviro Minister 8 "It is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presen- = tations" -- Al Gore, Chairman, Gen. Investment Management Bank
Eric Gisin expressed his vision slightly different. Said Eric: "f.cking Greens should be shot for making the world so stupid". http://groups.google.com/group/alt.org.sierra-club/msg/5bf027613f44f4fa
Unfortunately, there is no test for stupidity, rationality, nor intelligence for being a Green sh.t. So, all Greenies pass... happily singeing their pinko-green L'interantionale: ==== "It's green, green, green ==== on the far side of the hill ==== and when we get the carbon tax ==== life will be greener still... Thanks for the laughs, y'all... ahaha... ahahahanson
hhc314@yahoo.com - 14 Jun 2008 02:04 GMT > > Dear Sam Wormley: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I agree with you Tom. This years boogeyman appears to be the milliwatts of radiation emitted by cell phones. I'm now seeing posts from the clueless asking if their cell phone can fry an egg! Gimme a break, the milliwatt radiation from most cell phones are damn lucky if they can reach a cell phone tower half a mile away!
Still, the ozone thing seems to be financially motivated in it entiretly. As the concept begins to lack any and all credibility, the fact is that is has driven the price of Freon 12 to roughly 10 times its value, and the damn stuff now has to be purchased on todays Black Market. For the poor consumer, this means that the price of recharging your automobile air conditioner has now risen from $4.95 to around $40 a pop.
Quite honestly, I have never yet seen a liberal cause that was heavily promoted while not making one of its key promoters rich!
Second hand smoke for example, Hugh Rodham Clinton is now worth millions, simply from second hand smoke.
It's hard to identify many of these 'feel good' perps, because most of them stay safely out of the limelight.
Al Gore is one of the few exceptions. expcept that is "Green" promotion has destroyed any chance that he would ever become president.
Harry C.
p.s., I am a physicist and an environmentalst, and I truly believe that acid rain is the big threat, and the only way to avert this threat is though the increasing use of pollution free nuclear energy.
I say this simply because I have frequently traveled by air from Boston to LA, and on passing the big fossil fueled power plant in the near west you can see the results of their exhaust from their sources all the way to the Atlantic Ocean.
Nobody want to focus on this, which is an easily observable fact.
Harry C.
bz - 14 Jun 2008 02:48 GMT "hhc314@yahoo.com" <hhc314@yahoo.com> wrote in news:6436549a-6a9b-4f86- bc3c-d8fbea7192b2@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
> This years boogeyman appears to be the > milliwatts of radiation emitted by cell phones. I'm now seeing posts > from the clueless asking if their cell phone can fry an egg! Gimme a > break, the milliwatt radiation from most cell phones are damn lucky if > they can reach a cell phone tower half a mile away! Get your facts straight. A cell phone puts out .75 to 1 watt. That is 750 to 1000 milliwatts. http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone-radiation1.htm
Can one fry an egg? Not in any reasonable length of time.
Could 4 of them pop a Kernel of pop corn? According to my calculations, the answer is yes.
Let us assume each puts out 1 watt at about 1 GHz (900 MHz cell phone band is very close to the X band radar and microwave oven frequency range.)
4 watts represents 0.955 cal/sec, round that to 1 cal/sec
It takes 1 cal to raise 1 gram of water by 1 degree. Room temp is about 25 degC but we need to go to about 175 C to 'pop' the corn. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1486854/posts About 15 % of the corn is water.
It would take 150 seconds to raise 1 gram of water from to 175 C [gotta keep it under pressure] at 1 cal/second. If there was .1 grams of water, it would take 15 seconds. If there was .01 grams of water, it would take 1.5 second.
According to one source, an average kernel weighs 0.25 gm so 0.035 gm of water in a kernel. http://www.reddit.com/info/6mep9/comments/c049r5q
So, you _could_ pop a kernel with 4 phones in less than 10 seconds, but not fry an egg.
 Signature bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 14 Jun 2008 03:25 GMT > "hhc314@yahoo.com" <hhc314@yahoo.com> wrote in news:6436549a-6a9b-4f86- > bc3c-d8fbea7192b2@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
> > This years boogeyman appears to be the > > milliwatts of radiation emitted by cell phones. I'm now seeing posts > > from the clueless asking if their cell phone can fry an egg! Gimme a > > break, the milliwatt radiation from most cell phones are damn lucky if > > they can reach a cell phone tower half a mile away!
> Get your facts straight. A cell phone puts out .75 to 1 watt. That is 750 > to 1000 milliwatts. > http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone-radiation1.htm
> Can one fry an egg? Not in any reasonable length of time.
> Could 4 of them pop a Kernel of pop corn? According to my calculations, the > answer is yes.
> Let us assume each puts out 1 watt at about 1 GHz (900 MHz cell phone band > is > very close to the X band radar and microwave oven frequency range.)
> 4 watts represents 0.955 cal/sec, round that to 1 cal/sec
> It takes 1 cal to raise 1 gram of water by 1 degree. > Room temp is about 25 degC but we need to go to about 175 C to 'pop' the > corn. > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1486854/posts > About 15 % of the corn is water.
> It would take 150 seconds to raise 1 gram of water from to 175 C [gotta > keep > it under pressure] at 1 cal/second. > If there was .1 grams of water, it would take 15 seconds. > If there was .01 grams of water, it would take 1.5 second.
> According to one source, an average kernel weighs 0.25 gm so 0.035 gm of > water in a > kernel. http://www.reddit.com/info/6mep9/comments/c049r5q
> So, you _could_ pop a kernel with 4 phones in less than 10 seconds, but not > fry an egg. Except...
X-band is 10 GHz and microwave ovens run at 2.7 GHz.
Current phones put out more like 250 milliwatts.
There is no way to get a kernel of corn to absorb all the energy of the phones.
Other than that, you sorta got it right.
 Signature Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
bz - 14 Jun 2008 11:39 GMT >> "hhc314@yahoo.com" <hhc314@yahoo.com> wrote in news:6436549a-6a9b-4f86- >> bc3c-d8fbea7192b2@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > X-band is 10 GHz and microwave ovens run at 2.7 GHz. Yep. Sorry. 7 to 12.5 GHz. is X band. Been a while since I worked on one. I was wrong.
I should have double checked my memory.
The S band ranges from 2 to 4 GHz, "microwave oven works by passing non- ionizing microwave radiation, usually at a frequency of 2.45 GHz (a wavelength of 12.24 cm)".
> Current phones put out more like 250 milliwatts. That is not what my sources said. Documentation? I do find that I was also wrong about the cell phone frequencies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands shows that there are several cell bands, clustered around 900 MHz and 1800 MHz.
> There is no way to get a kernel of corn to absorb all the energy of > the phones. Of course not. But water is a very good absorber of radiation in the cell phone frequency range so if you have only a very small amount of water and nothing else that absorbs that frequency nearby, you could get rapid heating. The most important factor is the mass of the water and the proximity to the transmitters. All 4 cell phones being activated at the same time by incoming calls is also important. The cell phones were establishing the amount of power they needed to transmit to reach the tower, and they would then reduce power to the minimum needed to maintain contact.
The average user has a lot more water in their hand/brain and is only using one phone so they are not likely to fry their brain or burn their hand.
> Other than that, you sorta got it right. Well, not as right as I would have liked. Thanks for the corrections.
 Signature bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an infinite set.
bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 14 Jun 2008 17:25 GMT > >> "hhc314@yahoo.com" <hhc314@yahoo.com> wrote in news:6436549a-6a9b-4f86- > >> bc3c-d8fbea7192b2@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > > > X-band is 10 GHz and microwave ovens run at 2.7 GHz.
> Yep. Sorry. 7 to 12.5 GHz. is X band. Been a while since I worked on one. I > was wrong.
> I should have double checked my memory.
> The S band ranges from 2 to 4 GHz, "microwave oven works by passing non- > ionizing microwave radiation, usually at a frequency of 2.45 GHz (a > wavelength of 12.24 cm)".
> > Current phones put out more like 250 milliwatts.
> That is not what my sources said. Documentation? > I do find that I was also wrong about the cell phone frequencies > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands shows that there are > several cell bands, clustered around 900 MHz and 1800 MHz.
> > There is no way to get a kernel of corn to absorb all the energy of > > the phones.
> Of course not. But water is a very good absorber of radiation in the cell > phone frequency range so if you have only a very small amount of water and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > transmit to reach the tower, and they would then reduce power to the > minimum needed to maintain contact.
> The average user has a lot more water in their hand/brain and is only using > one phone so they are not likely to fry their brain or burn their hand.
> > Other than that, you sorta got it right.
> Well, not as right as I would have liked. > Thanks for the corrections. Output power of current cellphones; see the manual of any current cellphone.
I will grant there are probably still some old phones around that would put out up to 2W peak.
Validity of the base supposition; see:
http://www.snopes.com/science/cookegg.asp
Popcorn is a poor absorber of RF.
The only reason microwave popcorn works is the foil in the bag and the "pop this side down" label. The microwave oven is heating the foil which heats the popcorn. The direct heating is minimal.
 Signature Jim Pennino
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bz - 14 Jun 2008 19:37 GMT > Popcorn is a poor absorber of RF. if the corn doesn't have enough moisture.
> The only reason microwave popcorn works is the foil in the bag and the > "pop this side down" label. The microwave oven is heating the foil which > heats the popcorn. The direct heating is minimal. I have examined several popcorn bags. No metal in the bag. Not even a resistive element to act as a heater.
Check your bags. Neither ACT II nor Orville Redenbacher bags have any kind of metal in them.
 Signature bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an infinite set.
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jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 14 Jun 2008 20:55 GMT > > Popcorn is a poor absorber of RF.
> if the corn doesn't have enough moisture.
> > The only reason microwave popcorn works is the foil in the bag and the > > "pop this side down" label. The microwave oven is heating the foil which > > heats the popcorn. The direct heating is minimal.
> I have examined several popcorn bags. No metal in the bag. Not even a > resistive element to act as a heater.
> Check your bags. Neither ACT II nor Orville Redenbacher bags have any kind > of metal in them. Look again and rip the bag apart.
One side is just paper.
The other side has an embedded layer of conductive material.
On most brands you can see it as a dark rectangle on one side, i.e. the side you are supposed to put down.
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jmfbahciv - 14 Jun 2008 13:21 GMT >> Dear Sam Wormley: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Why not take the old "ozone layer" and dust it off, make it the new > bogeyman, and plant the seeds of a new paranoia? That topic isn't a long-term topic. The next one they will use is drugs and health insurance (except they will never utter the word insurance).
For a real live example, look at Massachusetts. Fascism is working and people here are asking for more.
/BAH
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