Quantum Tunneling
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muser - 27 Jun 2008 16:32 GMT I knew of this phenomena prior to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what physicists called it. I have a question regarding the proton demonstration in this clip. Is it possible the electroweak force is acting on the 'tunneling' proton? If, as the commentator is suggesting the proton is imbued (momentarily) with enough energy to circumvent the strong force, where is the additional energy coming from? are there test which pinpoint the energy source and could someone provide a link. also one last question. I remember reading somewhere that it would take vast sums of energy to overcome the strong force, how is a proton or any subatomic particle able to use the extra energy to perform this feat? I understand the rules that govern the quantum world are different to those which govern ours, but conceptually I find it hard to fathom how a proton might process the additional energy.
PD - 27 Jun 2008 21:16 GMT > I knew of this phenomena prior tohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s > , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > those which govern ours, but conceptually I find it hard to fathom how > a proton might process the additional energy. There's a couple ways to talk about this. One way is that the wavefunction of the proton actually has a tail that extends outside the barrier, and because its position is only determined insofar as the magnitude of the wavefunction (squared) tells you, then there is a certainly probability it will be found outside the barrier. This statement applies without any consideration whatsoever to how it gets from "inside" to "outside" and therefore crossing the barrier. That is, because the wavefunction is nonzero outside, then the proton is *already* partially outside the barrier and doesn't cross at all.
The second way is that energy is not strictly conserved inside a finite time interval, and so you don't have to go looking for places to "borrow" energy from in order to conserve energy. This is what the energy form of the uncertainty principle means: that the energy only is constant within a band of fluctuation that is constrained by the time window that you're looking in. The shorter the time window, the more fluctuation in energy is tolerated without violating the conservation of energy.
PD
RichD - 30 Jun 2008 10:57 GMT > > I knew of this phenomena prior > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > more fluctuation in energy is tolerated without violating the > conservation of energy. Maybe true.... but when I look at the time - energy uncertainty formula, I don't see how you get this interpretation.
-- Rich
PD - 30 Jun 2008 12:42 GMT > > > I knew of this phenomena prior > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > uncertainty formula, I don't see how you get this > interpretation. I suggest you read a good book on quantum mechanics, then, rather than trying to interpret formulas you see. (The formulas are short hand for words you have to understand first, not the converse.) The book by Griffiths is excellent.
> -- > Rich john - 30 Jun 2008 14:58 GMT > > > > I knew of this phenomena prior > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > -- > > Rich That would be sci-fantasy
Sam Wormley - 30 Jun 2008 16:26 GMT >>>>> I knew of this phenomena prior >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > That would be sci-fantasy Kinda closed minded, eh John. Griffiths is an excellent textbook.
A Physics Booklist: Recommendations from the Net: Quantum Mechanics http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Administrivia/booklist.html#quantum-mechanics
RichD - 02 Jul 2008 10:52 GMT > > > > I knew of this phenomena prior > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > words you have to understand first, not the converse.) The book by > Griffiths is excellent. Pretty clumsy dodge there, PD... in other words, you don't know, but can't admit it... just say those 3 words "I don't know", it will hurt at first, but later you'll feel better...
-- Rich
PD - 02 Jul 2008 12:18 GMT > > > > > I knew of this phenomena prior > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 3 words "I don't know", it will hurt at first, but > later you'll feel better... Don't know what? I gave an explanation, you said you didn't know how that interpretation arose, I gave you a place to read up more on that very same explanation. Do you have a question?
PD
tnlockyer@aol.com - 28 Jun 2008 00:28 GMT > I knew of this phenomena prior tohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s > , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > those which govern ours, but conceptually I find it hard to fathom how > a proton might process the additional energy. Quantum Mechanical Tunneling (not): In 1928 Gamow suggested that alpha particles were held inside the nucleus by a potential barrier. Gamow was a skilled mathematician and theorized that the "wave function" allowed the alpha particle to "tunnel out" through a forbidden zone of higher energy. This idea was accepted by the quantum mechanics and even today mistakenly forms the basis for modern quantum mechanical theory. See the original Gamow paper, "Quantum Theory of the Atomic Nucleus" G. Gamow ZP, 51, 204 (1928).
The Gamow mystical (magical) alpha particle tunneling theory completely breaks down in the decay of the Beryllium eight (Be8) nucleus. The Be8 isotope decays "neatly" into two alpha particles, so nothing else is left of the Be8 nucleus. This clean Be8 decay, into only two alpha particles, should have been a test bed for the theory of alpha particle tunneling decay, from the first, but no one could calculate the binding energies involved.
Now, since the year 2000, calculation of binding energy has been possible. Simply, the Be8 is composed of two pre-alpha (each with two protons and two neutrons) that tighten up into two alpha particles. The formation of two alpha particles creates an extra binding energy release of (Be8 – 2(alpha) = -0.092 MeV) making decay of Be8 energetically possible.
This reaction shows that new atomic energy is created when nucleons rearrange their null patterns, from a pre-alpha to an alpha configuration, and it is the resulting newly created atomic energy that forces the alpha particle decay. Because it is now possible to calculate the binding nuclear energy between various arrangements of protons and neutrons, the intimate details of Be8 decay can be shown. The two Be8 pre-alpha "inter" binding energy is ~34.045 MeV, and then these two pre-alpha are bound together with an "intra" binding energy of ~22.454 MeV. The "inter and intra" binding energies total to give the Be8 its (measured) binding energy (mass defect) of ~56.499 MeV.
The Be8 decay (into a lower mass energy state) occurs as the two pre- alpha tighten up into the two greater "inter" binding energy (mass defect) between nucleons in the alpha structure. The new atomic energy created is a substantial ~22.546 MeV. This newly created atomic energy is just enough to replace the "intra" ~22.454 MeV binding energy (mass defect) holding the two pre-alphas structures together in the Be8 with 0.092 MeV to spare. Thus the measured Be8 decay energy of 0.092 MeV is supplied, from the newly created alpha formation binding energy, after replacing the energy binding the two pre-alpha together in the Be8. The extra 0.092 MeV energy forces the Be8 to alpha decay. The quantum mechanical notions of square wells, wave functions and tunneling have nothing to do with any alpha particle decays what-so- ever.
The idrea that the electron "tunnels" and causes the Josephson effect falls apart under close inspection. A JJ consists of two superconductors (SC) separated by a gap of a few nanometers, OR A NANOWIRE WEAKLINK. What happens in an insulating gap is the electrons form Cooper pairs and bridges the gap. In the case of the nanowire conducting weak link is the Cooper pairs are simply conducted across the junction.
You can Google and see the JJ works (not on electron tunneling) but with weak links (tiny restrictions, microscopic point contacts, and weakly conducting layers or certain grain boundaries.
Sorry to destroy long standing "Quantum Mechanical Tunneling myths" that started in 1928 when I was 2 years old!
Regards; Tom;
See; www.amazon.com 096315463X (2008) for more complete details.
muser - 29 Jun 2008 13:51 GMT On Jun 27, 4:28 pm, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I knew of this phenomena prior tohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s > > , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It's strange you should mention G.Gamow as I'm in the middle of his book 'one, two, three... infinity'. although, I wasn't aware of his contribution to tunneling. PD, the second explaination you give means that tunneling would happen as a matter of fact and not when bodies like the sun create the process. strictly speaking, is that true and what implications does that have on quantum\normal matter. Tunneling is used to explain why the sun shines. tom, if I understand you correctly, you're of the opinion tunneling is a misnomer and binding energies are behind the tunneling 'myth'. If this is correct the sun would have burnt more of it's fuel by virtue of the process you described. since physicists have applied the tunneling function to a celestial body as proof of why it emits light. any accusation on its crediblity would first require, dispelling this theory.
p.s. is there any laboratory (open to the public) where I might view physics in action ;- so to speak. I don't mind travelling for the experience.
tnlockyer@aol.com - 29 Jun 2008 17:54 GMT > On Jun 27, 4:28�pm, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > book 'one, two, three... infinity'. although, I wasn't aware of his > contribution to tunneling. Yes he was a player during the early days.
> PD, the second explaination you give means that tunneling would happen > as a matter of fact and not when bodies like the sun create the > process. strictly speaking, is that true and what implications does > that have on quantum\normal matter. No, you are misunderstanding. The example i gave was to show that the G. Gamow theory of tunneling based of alpha particle decays, is not correct when binding energy is able to be calculated. The Be8 example was because the isotope decays "neatly: into two alpha particles.
> Tunneling is used to explain why the sun shines. tom, if I understand > you correctly, you're of the opinion tunneling is a misnomer and > binding energies are behind the tunneling 'myth'. No there is no tunneling under any circumstances, and tunneling is not used to explain the sun. You are confusing my binding energy atomic energy release arguments, binding energy release does cause the sun to shine.
The sun continues to shine because the nucleons are continually seeking a lower energy state while forming more complex nuclei up to iron. The binding energy is a mass defect and the energy is released in the form of gamma rays. It takes an estimated million years for the interior gamma rays to Compton scatterout. of the sun this scattering reduces the gamma rays to lower frequencies that we can see as sun shine.
>snip<
> p.s. is there any laboratory (open to the public) where I might view > physics in action ;- so to speak. I don't mind travelling for the > experience. There are a lot of books that touch on the subject, mostly giving the correct story.
Regards: Tom
P.S. See; www.amazon.com 096315463X where more details are presented about electron pairing in quantum step resistance, Josephson junctions, SQUIBS and Peltier effects. The tunneling is shown to not be the mechanisism.
muser - 30 Jun 2008 10:29 GMT On Jun 29, 9:54 am, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 4:28�pm, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > > - Show quoted text - please forgive my further ignorance on this matter, but when I stated tunneling as the reason the sun shone, I did so because the link in my original post, inform me this was the case. The author of the video claims to have a PhD (I assume in physics). I, being of humble stock, do not have necessary training or intuitive insight to glean who is right in this matter. If possible, could you e-mail the author (e-mail details are provided at the end of the video clip) and ask him to explain his position as presented in the clip.
PD - 30 Jun 2008 12:45 GMT > On Jun 29, 9:54 am, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 150 lines] > details are provided at the end of the video clip) and ask him to > explain his position as presented in the clip. Tunneling is indeed part of the reason why the sun shines. However, this does not mean that tunneling is limited to solar fusion processes. Generalities in popular videos are commonplace and sometimes misleading, since the videos are intended more to inspire than to educate carefully. Note that even Scientific American articles make a point of citing further reading if you want to get a more accurate and complete description, following the inspiration just received.
PD
tnlockyer@aol.com - 30 Jun 2008 17:34 GMT > On Jun 29, 9:54 am, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 27, 4:28�pm, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] > > > > - Show quoted text - Charlie said;
> please forgive my further ignorance on this matter, but when I stated > tunneling as the reason the sun shone, I did so because the link in my > original post, inform me this was the case. The author of the video > claims to have a PhD (I assume in physics). Charlie, I think he was trying to entertain with science fiction.
Tunneling does not exist as it is presently shown in the old text books. A more apt description is "bridge" as the electrons pair and form electron channels. Google weak links.
When electrons bind into pairs, energy is released, and the missing energy is quickly replaced from the environment .
The absorbed environment energy, for example, will unpair the electrons and cause the Peltier cooling as the current pairs cross a P N junction. Keeps your brew cool!
> I, being of humble stock, > do not have necessary training or intuitive insight to glean who is > right in this matter. We all are of humble stock, Charlie. We are all babes in the woods. The 20 th century will be known as the empirical century. The theories to explain those empirical results are mostly ad hoc and specious at best, so take what you read with a skeptical eye.
> If possible, could you e-mail the author (e-mail > details are provided at the end of the video clip) and ask him to > explain his position as presented in the clip. Charlie, I have no interest, he no doubt has been taught those ideas and to get his doctorate, had to echo these positions to his mentors.
Regards: Tom.
srp2inc@gmail.com - 03 Jul 2008 23:08 GMT > On Jun 29, 9:54 am, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 150 lines] > details are provided at the end of the video clip) and ask him to > explain his position as presented in the clip. If I may, I suggest you be warry of flat out assertions coming even from any PhDs, since they generally will be at odds with the flat out assertions of other PhDs.
All flat out assertions are of this nature. You will always find one PhD that will flat out contradict some other.
Human nature. Right or wrong, people individually become certain of this or that at some point and whatever degree they may hold, if it is right or wrong is a quite subjective notion.
At the end of the day, you, as a reader (listener), have to decide for yourself whether you will consider that any particular point makes sense from your own point of view, based on the sum of coherent info that you already have gathered.
Always be ready to reconsider any point you accepted in the past if some new info puts it in doubts. You may end up confirming the old decision, even if you took it from some apparent undisputable authority, or you may end up dropping it for a new wider ranging option.
This is how you will end up building a coherent model of reality (that you will always find this or that PhD asserting that you are wrong).
Trust you own judgment.
I am commenting here because I sensed your distress in another thread at this ng not being monitored and you not receiving sufficiently "well rounded" answers to your queries.
Be aware that no one has all the answers at the level of questioning you are now at, not even PhDs, even if some pretend to. All PhDs are humans that were born naked just like you, and had to learn, just like you are now doing, all they now know or think they know.
Not everything has been understood at the fundamental level. Just about all we have regarding the fundamental level are theories, many conflicting.
There exists only one physical reality though, and only a pool of non conflicting info and conclusions can meaningfully describe it at the end of the day.
This is the only possible yardstick.
André Michaud
PD - 03 Jul 2008 23:58 GMT On Jul 3, 5:08 pm, srp2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 29, 9:54 am, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 157 lines] > All flat out assertions are of this nature. You will always find > one PhD that will flat out contradict some other. Funny how "sometimes" comes out "always" in your head.
> Human nature. Right or wrong, people individually become > certain of this or that at some point and whatever degree > they may hold, if it is right or wrong is a quite subjective > notion. Not in science. Experimental verification settles all disputes, and then the only question is whether we've got sufficient quality data to answer the question.
Asserting that scientific truth is subjective is the fool's recourse for adding credibility to his half-baked ideas, with the odd claim that one idea is as right as any other.
> At the end of the day, you, as a reader (listener), have to > decide for yourself whether you will consider that any > particular point makes sense from your own point of view, > based on the sum of coherent info that you already have > gathered. That is also a foolish practice in science. It works well in politics, morals, and buying decisions, but it has very little role in science.
> Always be ready to reconsider any point you accepted > in the past if some new info puts it in doubts. Yes, with the caveat that the reliability of the new info is also subject to inspection.
> You may > end up confirming the old decision, even if you took it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Trust you own judgment. Again, this is an even more terrible idea, and it leads to cranks, idiots, and trolls who extol their own virtues as "free thinkers" and "anti-parrots". Keep in mind that schizophrenics and psychopaths trust their own judgment, even though their assessments have very little to do with reality.
The real question is, what is your method for determining the reliability of the results of your own judgment? Scientists have a method. Do you?
> I am commenting here because I sensed your distress > in another thread at this ng not being monitored and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > André Michaud john - 04 Jul 2008 00:20 GMT > The real question is, what is your method for determining the > reliability of the results of your own judgment? > Scientists have a method. Do you? Funny how it is always the current view that is 'right'.
Data require interpretation. Interpretation can be wrong for any of several reasons, including incomplete data or personal bias or corporate greenbacks
Scientists disagree. How can this be if they are using their ironclad 'method'?
By your view Bohr was a crank, because obviously the solar system atomic model is wrong, right? (-:
John Galaxy Model for the Atom
Sam Wormley - 04 Jul 2008 02:16 GMT >> The real question is, what is your method for determining the >> reliability of the results of your own judgment? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > for any of several reasons, including incomplete data > or personal bias or corporate greenbacks That's why in science... it is important to make data available to many.
> Scientists disagree. > How can this be if they are using their > ironclad 'method'? John... do you agree with me about galactic spiral arm formation... probably not... shall we look at some data... will we agree... probably not...
But when lots of investigators look at lots of data, there tend to be a better understanding of the community as a whole.... Will everybody agree... probably not.
> By your view Bohr was a crank, because > obviously the solar system atomic model [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > John > Galaxy Model for the Atom PD - 04 Jul 2008 15:42 GMT > > The real question is, what is your method for determining the > > reliability of the results of your own judgment? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > for any of several reasons, including incomplete data > or personal bias or corporate greenbacks And that's why the details of the experiment, the analysis, and the interpretation are published and peer-reviewed before being published, to root out and excise these biases. And that's why no single experimental result is taken as definitive, and it is only when results from independent investigators, using complementary methods, corroborate that the results are taken to be reliable. This is based on the presumption that nature does not care about the beliefs of the investigators, so that if two or four experimenters using different methods and different analyses end up with the same numbers, this is a strong indicator that it is nature's true number that has come through. This is part and parcel of the scientific method.
The instant that you dismiss any and all experimental evidence as suspect and subject to whim, bias, and error, then you might as well give up on science as a whole -- because this recourse to measurement of what *nature* says is the ONLY arbiter of truth in science.
Moreover, if you consider data to be suspicious because of personal whim, bias, or error, then by what account should mental models be considered more reliable? Are you suggesting that logic and just *thinking* about stuff is more reliably truth-finding than experimental measurement? If anything, logic and mental models are MORE plagued by whim, bias, and error than experimental measurement and should be trusted even less -- and this is precisely why science relies on measurement to be the arbiter.
> Scientists disagree. > How can this be if they are using their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > obviously the solar system atomic model > is wrong, right? The difference between Bohr and a crank is this: 1. Bohr did not ignore the best experimental evidence available at the time, and in fact his model was consistent with it. 2. Bohr did not wave his hands and avoid doing calculations to make quantitative predictions of things yet to be measured. 3. Bohr did not insist that he was being persecuted by the establishment when it was clear that his solar system model was inadequate, and in fact he was happy to return to square one, erase the chalkboard and do it again.
I defy you to find a crank here that behaves like this.
> (-: > > John > Galaxy Model for the Atom PD - 30 Jun 2008 00:31 GMT > On Jun 27, 4:28 pm, "tnlock...@aol.com" <tnlock...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > process. strictly speaking, is that true and what implications does > that have on quantum\normal matter. Tunneling depends on the shape of the wavefunction, which in turn depends on the shape of the potential that is interacting with the particle.
Tunneling is not limited to solar phenomena, and there are many cases of tunneling that occur in more ordinary and terrestrial things, including some human-designed devices in electronics that make use of it.
> Tunneling is used to explain why the sun shines. tom, if I understand > you correctly, you're of the opinion tunneling is a misnomer and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > physics in action ;- so to speak. I don't mind travelling for the > experience. G=EMC^2 Glazier - 30 Jun 2008 15:13 GMT muser Staying with quantum tunneling it was made fashionable by two guys out of CIT Kip Thorne and John Preskill. They had two black holes that could pass information between them. This kind of fits with the thinking in the particle realm two particles pass information on their direction of spin. Hmmmm information over distance sounds like the way we use radio photons. Bert
rajaniyer@hotmail.com - 30 Jun 2008 14:59 GMT > I knew of this phenomena prior tohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s > , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > those which govern ours, but conceptually I find it hard to fathom how > a proton might process the additional energy. warm-up rajaniyer
It is quite interesting to note that Gamov's text on 'one, two, three ..... infinity' motivated me at a young age, especially imaginary number i that somehow mystically solves treasure puzzles. Then quantum physics wave equation including Schroedinger equation have the i factor which makes the mathematics of sinusoidal waves possible.
Quite simply with this, the physical significance of i will be that it is algebraically representing logarithmic fluctuation, i.e. i = log(fluctuation). We can show that it implies signal as a function of noise noting that fine structure constant is also logarithmic function with energy & mass, thereby representing energy in parametric form as signal. We now have method quantifying the grand unified theory of everything vacuum genesis of universe modeling starting with signal = f(noise). I have derived this equation performing signal analysis as well as mathematical physics to connect with quantum probability si quantifying quantum physics of quantum tunneling.
BURT - 30 Jun 2008 19:47 GMT > I knew of this phenomena prior tohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s > , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > those which govern ours, but conceptually I find it hard to fathom how > a proton might process the additional energy. The barrier tunneled through is an energy barrier.
Yousuf Khan - 30 Jun 2008 22:48 GMT > I knew of this phenomena prior to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKjJT7gh9s > , though prior to an e-mail amazon sent me I was unaware of what [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is the additional energy coming from? are there test which pinpoint > the energy source and could someone provide a link. As one lay person to another, I think sometimes the professional physicists in here tend to have become immune to try to picturise phenomenon in their own minds. This is due to years of education which tends to indoctrinate them in a numb don't-ask-questions mindstate. They are in a different state of mind from the rest of us, they are in the "my professor told me this is the way it is, and his professor before him, thus it is always thus."
Obviously it would be the Electroweak force that makes a proton escape the clutches of the Strong force within a nucleus, in a fission process. The Electoweak is several times weaker than the Strong, however, that comparison only applies to their strength relative to each other when the Strong is at its strongest. The interesting thing about the Strong is that it has a peak in strength at a specific distance between the nucleons; its strength drops off considerably both above and below that distance. However, the Electroweak just keeps getting stronger and stronger the closer and closer you make things come together. At some point if some nucleons are pushed too close together and their Electroweak repulsion becomes strong enough to overcome the peak strength of the Strong, and then you can see nuclei fly apart. Much like a pinball breaking through a barrier -- it may not break through all of the time, but do it enough times and eventually it'll find a hole in there somewhere.
Yousuf Khan
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