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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / July 2008



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Consciousness, a deterministic universe, & "many worlds"

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Osmium - 29 Jun 2008 06:24 GMT
Strict determinism is usually refuted by a Reductio ad absurdum
argument.

Determinism is made to seem ridiculous because it carries with it the
idea that at the instant the universe was created it was in such a
state that I was preordained to be posting these very words now.  If
there is only one universe why would it so arrange itself?

But if there are an infinite number of universes then strict
determinism makes sense.  As infinite possibilities are realized by
infinite universes then everything that can happen must happen, and it
must happen based on strict causation and not quantum chance.

This idea does not eliminate free will.  If I had exercized my free
will not to make this post I would have consciously chosen to take a
path in one of the other preordained universes (ie "many worlds")
where causation would dictate I would not make this post.

Therefore "strict determinism" maintains the common sense idea of
causation, and "many worlds" shows how consciousness can exist in a
strictly deterministic universe.
DougC - 29 Jun 2008 09:27 GMT
Rush wrote:

> Determinism is made to seem ridiculous because it carries with it the
> idea that at the instant the universe was created it was in such a
> state that I was preordained to be posting these very words now.

It is quite impossible to catalog and analyze all the factors from the
beginning of the universe to the day your father met your mother.
Determinism is a useless concept.  Give it up.

> But if there are an infinite number of universes then strict
> determinism makes sense. �As infinite possibilities are realized by
> infinite universes then everything that can happen must happen, and it
> must happen based on strict causation and not quantum chance.

How do we percieve these other universes?  This is wandering off into
the supernatural and piling on unnecessary and unmanageable loads.

> This idea does not eliminate free will.

Free will is an illusion to begin with.  The almost infinite factors
which flash through the brain on the verge of decision were shaped
through prior centurys, including the history of the wasp that stung
you when you were 6.

Doug Chandler
Osmium - 29 Jun 2008 16:54 GMT
> Rush wrote:
> > Determinism is made to seem ridiculous because it carries with it the
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Doug Chandler

I agree it is impossible to catagorize everything that happened before
mum met dad.  But I was discussing only whether it happened, not
whether we could measure it.

The "many universes" idea is not supernatural and has the math to back
it up. True it is a fantastic idea and strange to human ears---but
that is not enough to reject it.  If it were the theory of relativity
would be rejected out of hand.

I agree with you about free will---it is an illusion brought about by
natural selection to make us automatons behave more efficiently.  But
the fact that we can "choose" the type future we want to some degree
is because we can choose among pre ordained and existing paths.
DK - 29 Jun 2008 18:24 GMT
>Strict determinism is usually refuted by a Reductio ad absurdum
>argument.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>path in one of the other preordained universes (ie "many worlds")
>where causation would dictate I would not make this post.

The problem of free will has absolutely nothing to do with
determinism and everything to do with a mind-body problem.
It is reductionism that makes free will non-existent.

Random (probabilistic) nature of quantal effects coupled
with chaotic behavior of so many things (butterfly effect)
makes it absolutely clear that the universe is not deterministic.

However, it is perfectly possible to live without determinism
and have no free will whatsoever. If, as reductionism tells
us, all phenomena are direct consequence of the physical
interactions, then what we call "a thought", "a will", etc can only
be afterthoughts, non-causal byproducts of things that take place
only after all the physical interactions that trigger them took
place. In other words, under reductionism the free will is only a
grand illusion.

Whether I am typing this now is completely deterministic since
the big bang or is an eventual result of many random events is
quite irrelevant. What's relevant is that in reductionist physical
world my typing is wholly dependent on the previous physical
events and is completely independent on anything I perceive as
mental "me".

IMHO, the only sensible solution to the free will problem is a
form of dualism that posits that mental is just another dimension
of physical. That is, everything is "conscious". An electron, an
atom, a brick all possess different degrees of consciousness.
Thus, at a certain complexity of the organization, the causal
effects of mental on physical are observable to us.

DK
Osmium - 30 Jun 2008 06:48 GMT
> In article <8444ac16-ccd6-42ed-a156-9ced952bd...@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, Osmium <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Your explanation of free will is my explanation of consciousness.  I
am conscious of being kicked because it is I who is kicked.  A rock is
conscious of being kicked because it is that very rock itself that is
kicked so the rock "knows" a priori that it was itself that was
kicked.
The rock doesn't have enough short term memory, long term memory, and
nerve transmitters to "realize" it was kicked---but maybe a parameceum
does.
foolsrushin. - 03 Jul 2008 03:46 GMT
> > In article <8444ac16-ccd6-42ed-a156-9ced952bd...@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, Osmium <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Strict determinism is usually refuted by a Reductio ad absurdum
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> nerve transmitters to "realize" it was kicked---but maybe a parameceum
> does.

The Kantian Antinomial View

'Kant's Antinomies:

Kant points out that philosophy, or the use of reason, can seem to
lead to contradictions.  For instance, it can seem (and did to
Descartes) that the world must have a beginning or limit in space and
time.  After all, doesn't everything have a beginning and/or end?  But
it can also seem (and did to Aristotle) that the world must be
infinite in space and time.  After all, what would be beyond the limit
of space, or before time began?

Kant argues that his distinction between noumena and phenomena helps
us to avoid such paradoxes.  Space and time are not things in
themselves (noumena) nor are they objects we experience (phenomena).
They are forms that our experience takes or features of the way in
which our minds present the world to us.   To talk about the beginning
or limit of space or of time is to mistakenly treat space and time as
if they were objects of some kind.

Similarly, we can be led to think that there can be free will in the
world, but also that there can be no such thing, since all events in
the natural world are determined, i.e. caused by prior events.  It is
indeed a law of nature that all events are determined, Kant says, but
this applies only to phenomena.  In the realm of noumena it is
entirely possible that there is real freedom, and indeed ethics
require that we believe in such freedom of the will.

Finally, we can be led to think (as Descartes did) that there must
exist a necessary being (i.e. God) that does not itself need to be
caused to exist by anything else.  But we can also be led to think
that there are no such necessary beings in the world, that everything
that exists depends for its existence on something else.   Kant says
it is true that there is no necessary cause in the (phenomenal) world,
but we can still believe in a necessary cause of the world.  This
would be God.'

Thus, by subjectivising our experience, socially and individually,
Kant imposes necessary limits on our knowledge. Goethe puts it rather
delightfully:

'And next, and most important of all,
To metaphysics we must fall,
And see, with deep discernment plain,
What things won't fit the human brain.
But fit or not - why vex your head?
You use a sounding phrase instead.'
--
'foolsrushin.'
BURT - 29 Jun 2008 23:08 GMT
> Strict determinism is usually refuted by a Reductio ad absurdum
> argument.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> causation, and "many worlds" shows how consciousness can exist in a
> strictly deterministic universe.

There is only one universe and monotheism.

Mitch Raemsch
 
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