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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / June 2008



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Precession effect on helicopter - Why 90 degrees?

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Sammuel - 29 Jun 2008 10:05 GMT
Hi, I am reading some notes of the precession effect on helicopter, and
it said the left of main blade is 90 degrees ahead of spin.

But why is it '90 degrees' and is  'ahead'???

Thanks.
nuny@bid.nes - 29 Jun 2008 10:35 GMT
> Hi, I am reading some notes of the precession effect on helicopter, and
> it said the left of main blade is 90 degrees ahead of spin.
>
> But why is it '90 degrees' and is  'ahead'???

 Where did you find these notes? Seen from above, which way are the
blades spinning?

 Mark L. Fergerson
Sammuel - 29 Jun 2008 11:55 GMT
"Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls on
helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the rotor
disk (which rotates), gyroscopic precession comes into play. If the
rotor disk is to be tilted forward (to gain forward velocity), its
rotation requires that the downward net force on the blade be applied
roughly 90 degrees (depending on blade configuration) before, or when
the blade is to one side of the pilot and rotating forward." (Wikipedia)

You may find it from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession#Torque-induced

>> Hi, I am reading some notes of the precession effect on helicopter, and
>> it said the left of main blade is 90 degrees ahead of spin.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>   Mark L. Fergerson
Sammuel - 29 Jun 2008 11:56 GMT
For the rotational direction is anti-clockwise, view from top view.

> "Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls on
> helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the rotor
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>>   Mark L. Fergerson
Sammuel - 29 Jun 2008 12:50 GMT
Typo, I mean the lift.

> For the rotational direction is anti-clockwise, view from top view.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>>
>>>   Mark L. Fergerson
Martin Hogbin - 29 Jun 2008 13:04 GMT
> "Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls on
> helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the rotor
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> roughly 90 degrees (depending on blade configuration) before, or when
> the blade is to one side of the pilot and rotating forward." (Wikipedia)

You could look up some articles on the gyroscopic
effect but these are likely to use vector calculus,
which you may not be familliar with.

One way to look at the rotor, which at least makes the
gyroscopic effect look plausible is to say that if you
want to make the front of the rotor move down it is no
use applying a downward force to the blade when it is
at the front - that is too late, by the time the force
translates into a change in position, the blade has
moved on.  If you want to make the front of the rotor
move down you need to apply the force to the blade
before it gets to the front.

Martin Hogbin
Sammuel - 29 Jun 2008 13:20 GMT
Thanks Martin.

It is understandable that there should be a phrase difference between
'applied' lift and 'effective' lift in terms of orientation angle of the
main blades, but how to account that phrase diff?

Why exactly 90 degrees? Depends on rpm of main blades??

Thanks.

>> "Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls
>> on helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Martin Hogbin
Edward Green - 29 Jun 2008 14:48 GMT
> Thanks Martin.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Why exactly 90 degrees? Depends on rpm of main blades??

The key concept which is shied from in "angular momentum".  As Martin
Hogbin said, this depends on vector analysis (aka "vectors"), which
you may not be familiar with.

But the rule is, the main blades have an angular momentum (vector)
which you may think of as an arrow passing through the rotation axis,
and pointing up if the blades rotate counter-clockwise as seen from
above. To move this arrow we must apply "torque", another arrow, which
adds increments to the first according to the rules of vector addition
(torque x time = angualar momentum).

Now the clincher: we want to rotate the angular momentum of the blades
forward, and we do so, as you might expect, by applying a torque in
the forward direction.  So where is the oolie?  A forward pointing
torque is not the same as a forward pointing push, which is what we
might naively attempt!  It's equivalent to trying to twist the blades
about a forward pointing axis (counter-clockwise as seen from the
front), which is equivalent to your "force 90 degrees out".
tadchem - 29 Jun 2008 16:01 GMT
> "Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls on
> helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the rotor
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> >   Mark L. Fergerson

I believe what they are talking about is this: when a torque is
applied to the axis of a rotating object ( as is done to tilt the
rotor to convert some of the lift into thrust), gyroscopic precession
will apply a force perpendicular to the applied torque.

This is the basis of the classic demonstration using a pivoting chair
and a bicycle wheel:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:offic
ial&channel=s&hl=en&q=bicycle%20wheel%20gyroscope&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv
#

The demonstrator hold the axle of a bicycle wheel that is spinning in
the vertical plane. The demonstrator applies a torque to the axle
(force perpendicular to the axis), raising one side and lowering the
other (i.e. the torque is in a vertical plane).  Precession then
applies a force of its own against the experimenter's hands
*horizontally*, depending on the direction the demonstrator tries to
rotate the axis (clockwise, counterclockwise).

Horizontal vs vertical = 90°.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
nuny@bid.nes - 29 Jun 2008 17:27 GMT
> "Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls on
> helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the rotor
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> You may find it from here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession#Torque-induced

 OK. I'll give you a more visual answer than the others (so far).
Ignore gyroscopic precession, torque, all that terminology for a
moment. Just look at the rotation axis of the rotor and see it as a
vertical line, centered in the complicated joint on top of the
helicopter, with a built-in twist. Now, "tilt the rotor disk forward
from the vertical" means "rotate the line a little bit around that
joint on top of the chopper", yes? Now visualize another line running
from side to side through the joint on top of the chopper; that's the
axis you're going to have to twist the rotor axis around. Notice that
it's exactly like the axis of the rotor in that it's a line with a
built-in twist.

 Here's the tricky bit; the twist of the rotational axis of the rotor
will try to line up with the twist of the side-to-side axis you're
trying to rotate it around.

 You say the rotor disk rotates right-handed as seen from above, so
tilting the disk forward means twisting the axis right-handed as seen
from the right side of the chopper. The disk will try to turn to the
chopper's right so as to line up the twists.

 Did that help?

 Mark L. Fergerson
Edward Green - 30 Jun 2008 15:56 GMT
On Jun 29, 12:27 pm, "n...@bid.nes" <Alien8...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > "Gyroscopic precession also plays a large role in the flight controls on
> > helicopters. Since the driving force behind helicopters is the rotor
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
>   Mark L. Fergerson

What we have here is a strong example of the power of a good
generalizing principle, like angular momentum. :-)
bz - 29 Jun 2008 16:45 GMT
Sammuel <samkok33@gmail.com> wrote in news:g47j87$f2d$1
@ijustice.itsc.cuhk.edu.hk:

> Hi, I am reading some notes of the precession effect on helicopter, and
> it said the left of main blade is 90 degrees ahead of spin.
>
> But why is it '90 degrees' and is  'ahead'???
>
> Thanks.

Do you mean 'left' or 'lift'?

If the copter is moving 'forward' the blades on one side will be moving
[with respect to the air] with rotary velocity PLUS forward motion
velocity.
On the other side, they move with rotary velocity MINUS forward motion
velocity. So one side will have more lift than the other side.

The angle of attack of the blade is adjusted to keep the copter flying
level.
The adjustments are called 'flapping and feathering'

The main blade rotates one way, the body of the copter tries to rotate the
other. The tail rotor fights against that tendency and allows the pilot to
point the copter in the direction he want to fly.
However it is possible for a copter to fly in any direction, including back
wards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter

Signature

bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

bz+sp@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu   remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap

 
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