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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / July 2008



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Pickens to build 4GW wind farm

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Agent Smith - 09 Jul 2008 12:08 GMT
I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
as physicists, we know that the wind coming out the back of the windmill
has lost kinetic energy equal to the electrical energy generated plus
dissipative losses in the electrical and mechanical systems.  

Nature needs wind to function properly, and just think how awful life would
be if you walked outside on a cool day in May and there were no breeze.  
But breezes are even more important in July.  I'm not saying that's what
will happen, but since the hallmark of The Green Movement is to analyze the
world as a closed system, using conservation equations, this is yet another
a green question worth examining.

I will always prefer rooftop solar cells, because otherwise that solar
radiation is just going directly to heat, and it's only function is to heat
an already overheating planet.  Recapturing that energy would help the
environment, not hurt it; it would be concentrated in cities, where energy
use is also concentrated, and it would boost the economy, by making jobs
for home contractors.  It would also help reduce the problem of urban heat
islands.  

Even central station solar power plants in the desert are harmful to the
environment, because the desert ecology is very delicate, and building
those things will destroy the ecology at the plant site.  Likewise, the
energy collected is proportional to the area covered by solar collectors,
and larger outputs would claim proportionately more ecologically sensitive
land.  GW power plants will have an enormous ecological impact.

Ocean wave power has the same problem as wind, which is that ocean waves
are critical to the functioning of their ecosystem.  The Japanese plan to
beam solar power from space can provide unlimited energy, but it will
contribute to the global heat budget by introducing energy that wouldn't
have arrived on earth in the first place.  I expect that would contribute
to global warming, although I can't way would be the ratio of trouble
caused by that to the trouble caused by CO2.  

That pretty much covers everything except nuclear, whose pollution problems
are worse than global warming, and fusion, which will probably never pan
out, if you believe Lidsky's 1985 MIT analysis.
Cwatters - 09 Jul 2008 13:19 GMT
> I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> disrupting meteorological flows.

I think the answer is probably "easily more than they need to" but it's an
interesting question. There appears to be some evidence that rainfall
downwind of a wind farm might be altered but only on a local scale.

http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/2005/jan/tech/kc_turbulence.html

".. the upward movement of cool, moist air could increase cloudiness and
rainfall over the wind farm, whereas surrounding areas could receive less
rainfall."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3811551.stm

"The British Wind Energy Association (BWEA) says previous research shows
rainfall marginally increased downwind of tall buildings. In addition,
taking energy out of the wind increases precipitation says Alison Hill of
the BWEA."
Androcles - 09 Jul 2008 13:56 GMT
| > I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
| > disrupting meteorological flows.
|
| I think the answer is probably "easily more than they need to" but it's an
| interesting question. There appears to be some evidence that rainfall
| downwind of a wind farm might be altered but only on a local scale.

If it's an interesting question then so is this:
Enough to soak up the energy of a hurricane and save a city such as
New Orleans from flooding? What would you do with the surplus?

http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/2005/jan/tech/kc_turbulence.html

| ".. the upward movement of cool, moist air could increase cloudiness and
| rainfall over the wind farm, whereas surrounding areas could receive less
| rainfall."

I just love "could". If pigs could fly they'd be pigeons.

| http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3811551.stm
|
| "The British Wind Energy Association (BWEA) says previous research shows
| rainfall marginally increased downwind of tall buildings. In addition,
| taking energy out of the wind increases precipitation says Alison Hill of
| the BWEA."

Ah, so soaking up a hurricane's energy makes it rain more.
Looks like you get wet either way.
Heavy rain is hitting the UK as of NOW (afternoon, July 9, 2008).
Perhaps a wind farm "could" get rid of it. I just love "could".
Agent Smith - 10 Jul 2008 11:28 GMT
>| > I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
>| > disrupting meteorological flows.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Enough to soak up the energy of a hurricane and save a city such as
> New Orleans from flooding? What would you do with the surplus?

There are no hurricanes in the heartland, which is where they're
building the wind farms, but at least you're thinking, because you've
asked whether we could built the plants in a place where they might do
some good, like the Carribean or nearby Atlantic, along that track where
hurricanes always form.  

They'd only turn on a few times a year, but in that time they'd generate
an extraordinary amount of energy, which would be difficult to find a
place to store.  They'd have to be unbelievably durable, to withstand
150mph winds.  You'd better break out a pencil and paper and get to work
on your improved windmill design, so you can get your idea back out of
the dumpster.

You'll never make billions as an entrepreneur if your ideas are that
poorly though out.

> http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/2005/jan/tech/kc_turbul
> ence.html
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Heavy rain is hitting the UK as of NOW (afternoon, July 9, 2008).
> Perhaps a wind farm "could" get rid of it. I just love "could".
Sam Wormley - 09 Jul 2008 16:09 GMT
> I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
> as physicists, we know that the wind coming out the back of the windmill
> has lost kinetic energy equal to the electrical energy generated plus
> dissipative losses in the electrical and mechanical systems.  

  Forests (trees) have orders of magnitude more effect of "absorbing" the
  wind than wind turbine farms.
Uncle Al - 09 Jul 2008 21:57 GMT
> > I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> > disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>    Forests (trees) have orders of magnitude more effect of "absorbing" the
>    wind than wind turbine farms.

It actually doesn't work like that.  Forests are not located in high
wind chutes.  Do you believe adding 15 ppm CO2 to background 385 ppm
CO2 inside 5 wt-% water in the atmosphere makes a difference re
Greenhouse Effect?  If so, adding 100 GW of wind generation will be
disasterousin its own right.  You cannot have it both ways.  Either
added piddles matter or they do not.

Signature

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

Ray Vickson - 09 Jul 2008 21:08 GMT
On Jul 9, 4:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
left.com> wrote:
> I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> That pretty much covers everything except nuclear, whose pollution problems
> are worse than global warming,

Why do you make this claim? It is controversial, to say the least. Of
course, there are serious problems that need to be dealt with; among
them are: (1) uranium mine waste; (2) spent fuel rod storage/disposal;
(3) building fail-safe systems, almost immune to human (operator)
error; (4) protection against fuel diversion for weapons systems; (5)
protection against terrorism and the like (also, earthquakes, etc.). I
personally think that ALL these problems can be well handled, but
maybe not in an atmosphere of totally unrestricted, laissez-faire
private enterprise and bare-bones cost-cutting.

R.G. Vickson

> and fusion, which will probably never pan
> out, if you believe Lidsky's 1985 MIT analysis.
Uncle Al - 09 Jul 2008 21:52 GMT
> I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
> as physicists, we know that the wind coming out the back of the windmill
> has lost kinetic energy equal to the electrical energy generated plus
> dissipative losses in the electrical and mechanical systems.

Less for induced turbulence, too, and a carpet of dead birds.  Wind is
powered by thermal gradients, Earth's spin, and probably lunar tidal
forces.  One expects to see accelerating accumulating leap seconds in
the planet's atomic clocks and quasar monitoring compared with Earth's
rotation vs. the fixed stars.

THE WAR ON GLOBAL SLOWING!  What can we do?  All wind turbines must be
removed.  NO!  All wind turbines must be powered off the grid to speed
the wind.  Burn renewable algae for fuel.  

> Nature needs wind to function properly, and just think how awful life would
> be if you walked outside on a cool day in May and there were no breeze.
> But breezes are even more important in July.  I'm not saying that's what
> will happen, but since the hallmark of The Green Movement is to analyze the
> world as a closed system, using conservation equations, this is yet another
> a green question worth examining.
[snip]

Wind is weather with moisture mass transport.  Pull momentum out of
local swirls and the jet stream to obtain accumulative big surprises.

> Ocean wave power has the same problem as wind, which is that ocean
waves
> are critical to the functioning of their ecosystem.

Bigger problems - the moon's orbital radius will spiral outward as
wave energy is diverted from tidal feedback.  Mooslems will go apeshit
about their lunar demigod.  Hell, Mooslems will go apeshit on general
principles regardless.

>  The Japanese plan to
> beam solar power from space can provide unlimited energy,
[snip]

That is a microwave weapon against cities.  Atmospheric impedence will
make continuous transmission of tens of gigawatts of energy a bad idea
in any case.  Side lobes.  One presumes there will be anchored gayly
colored balloons delineating no-fly zones.  More dead birds.

> That pretty much covers everything except nuclear, whose pollution problems
> are worse than global warming, and fusion, which will probably never pan
> out, if you believe Lidsky's 1985 MIT analysis.

Nuclear is not a pollution problem.  Run a civilian fuel cycle to dump
a clean beta/gamma stream with reclaimed dirty uranium and
transuranics for fuel.  Storing beta/gamma waste is no problem at all
for its relatively short half-lives and impossiblity of going
critical.  All ya gotta do is bury it and dump decay heat.

The current military fuel cycle isolates clean transuranics for bombs
and such.  It dumps uranium plus waste transuranics plus beta/gamma
emitters.  That waste is forever - and as it decays it goes through
humps of criticality, especially if there is groundwater.  Stooopid;
and profitable for porkbarrelling and for powerbrokering.

Signature

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

jmfbahciv - 10 Jul 2008 14:21 GMT
>> I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
>> disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> THE WAR ON GLOBAL SLOWING!  What can we do?

You realize that these people will suggest that the wind turbines
point the other way to solve this one....

> All wind turbines must be
> removed.  NO!  All wind turbines must be powered off the grid to speed
> the wind.  Burn renewable algae for fuel.  

<snip>

/BAH
tadchem - 10 Jul 2008 00:10 GMT
On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
left.com> wrote:
> I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> disrupting meteorological flows.  Everybody thinks that wind is free, but
> as physicists, we know that the wind coming out the back of the windmill
> has lost kinetic energy equal to the electrical energy generated plus
> dissipative losses in the electrical and mechanical systems.

To get the masximum out of wind power we would have to level all
mountains, build windmills everywhere, and mow the forests down to the
moss on the ground.

Who needs birds, anyway?

Just don't put any the the backyards of the liberal elites:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/05/07/kenn
edy_doesnt_play_by_the_rules/


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 10 Jul 2008 00:55 GMT
> On Jul 9, 7:08?am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > has lost kinetic energy equal to the electrical energy generated plus
> > dissipative losses in the electrical and mechanical systems.

> To get the masximum out of wind power we would have to level all
> mountains, build windmills everywhere, and mow the forests down to the
> moss on the ground.

Actually, windmills work best in mountain passes so if you want to
maximize windmills we would have to build more mountains.

> Who needs birds, anyway?

Cats.

Signature

Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

tadchem - 10 Jul 2008 10:34 GMT
On Jul 9, 7:55 pm, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 7:08?am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
> > left.com> wrote:
> > > I'd love to know how much wind energy America can provide without
> > > disrupting meteorological flows. ?

<snip>

It depends on who is standing where...

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
Agent Smith - 10 Jul 2008 11:31 GMT
>> On Jul 9, 7:08?am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
>> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Cats.

People, too.  If we don't hear birds chirping in the morning, we freak
out and shoot up the post office.  The EPA was particularly fond of the
spotted owl.
jmfbahciv - 10 Jul 2008 14:18 GMT
> On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Who needs birds, anyway?

Flora.  Fauna depends on flora.

<snip>

/BAH
Agent Smith - 10 Jul 2008 15:34 GMT
>> On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
>> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Flora.  Fauna depends on flora.

I'm partial to broiled chicken, myself.
jmfbahciv - 11 Jul 2008 13:09 GMT
>>> On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
>>> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I'm partial to broiled chicken, myself.

Chickens eat meat and plants so you can eat them.

/BAH
Agent Smith - 11 Jul 2008 14:19 GMT
>>>> On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
>>>> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Chickens eat meat and plants so you can eat them.

Objection, your honor.  What relevance does this have?
jmfbahciv - 12 Jul 2008 14:05 GMT
>>>>> On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
>>>>> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Objection, your honor.  What relevance does this have?

Look up food chain.

/BAH
Agent Smith - 12 Jul 2008 15:59 GMT
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 7:08 am, Agent Smith <agent-sm...@two-blocks-on-your-
>>>>>> left.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Look up food chain.

A second ago we were talking about birst being chewed up by windmills,
and suddenly we're talking about the food chain.

Bah, indeed.
 
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