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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / July 2008



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Sustitute for Weston Standard Cell.

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Harold A. Climer - 11 Jul 2008 16:28 GMT
In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
Weston Standard Cell. Since these cells are now longer being
manufactured and the ones we have are approximately 25+ years old
( I know because I unpacked the boxes from the scientific supply
house) ,can anyone recommend a solution to this problem.
What can we substitue for the standard cell?

Harold A. Climer
Dept Of Physics Geology & Astronomy
U.T. Chattanooga
Room 406A Engineering,Math & Computer Sicence Building
615 McCallie Ave.
Chattanooga TN 37403
Harold-Climer@utc.edu
Uncle Al - 11 Jul 2008 17:01 GMT
>  In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
> cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Chattanooga TN 37403
> Harold-Climer@utc.edu

Contact NIST for the good answer,

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/contact.htm
 
Signature

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

hhc314@yahoo.com - 11 Jul 2008 17:51 GMT
>  In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
> cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Chattanooga TN 37403
> Harold-Cli...@utc.edu

A few firms offer electronic counterparts equivalent in stability and
accuracy to the Weston Standard Cell. These are high stability, highly
regulated. single voltage power supplies that claim stability within a
few microvolts.

Google can probably locate these for you.

Harry C.
Benj - 11 Jul 2008 20:54 GMT
Hey Harold, it's the computer age!  Do a google search FIRST and THEN
ask the question!

How many do you need and how much tax money you got to spend?

http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/734A.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnitedStates

There are other lesser brands and models out there.

PS. Keep those old cells!  You'll want them to pass around to show all
the newborns how physics was done in the pre-electronic dark ages.
Anyway they use mercury and it probably would cost a million bucks
today to dispose of them "properly".

------------------------------------------

>  In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
> cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Chattanooga TN 37403
> Harold-Cli...@utc.edu
nuny@bid.nes - 11 Jul 2008 21:00 GMT
>  In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
> cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
> Weston Standard Cell. Since these cells are now longer being
> manufactured and the ones we have are approximately 25+ years old
> ( I know because I unpacked the boxes from the scientific supply
> house) ,can anyone recommend a solution to this problem.

 First, teach that the Weston cell is no longer a "standard" and why;
because of the toxicity of the cadmium and mercury in them.

> What can we substitue for the standard cell?

 As Uncle Al points out, the NIST is the place to go for Official
Standards.

 However I wonder what your students plan to do with their
educations; will they become scientists, or engineers? Both use
different standards in Real Life and if I were you I'd teach them with
what they'll actually be using, not something antiquated and
Officially Toxic.

 Mark L. Fergerson
Tom Potter - 12 Jul 2008 05:17 GMT
> In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
> cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> house) ,can anyone recommend a solution to this problem.
> What can we substitue for the standard cell?

You might try:
http://www.73.com/

When I worked in the standard labs at Burroughs and Bendix,
we kept our Weston Standard Cells in a temperature bath
and used them ONLY to calibrate secondary voltage standards,
and precision digital voltmeters.

If I wanted some low cost, precision, voltage sources, for student use,
I would make or buy low voltage, zener diode, power supplies.

If you were looking for extremely precision measurements,
and the supplies varied a little in voltage,
you could put a code on each supply,
and after the experiment match up the code
with the actual voltage to see how well the student did.

Signature

Tom Potter

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http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
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http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm

Benj - 12 Jul 2008 15:31 GMT
> If I wanted some low cost, precision, voltage sources, for student use,
> I would make or buy low voltage, zener diode, power supplies.

I'm sorry this whole thread just sets me off on the total
impracticality of science types in general. And obviously that
includes me as well!

First Harold comes here asking what to replace the standard cells in
the student lab with. But he doesn't bother with a Google search first
and provides not nearly enough information for anyone to give informed
advice. Then Al suggests a visit to NIST!!! What's the guy doing?
Primary standards calibrations? It's a STUDENT lab fer cripes sake!
Then I pipe up with a FLuke instrument reference as a calibrator at
the next level below NIST! OK, I'll point out I did mention that
lesser devices exist, but still God knows what the Fluke thing costs
even though they make great stuff. And then someone again suggests
google and a search for lesser standards. Ok. But still not a real
answer is it? And then we have someone suggesting Josephson juctions!
Now THAT is the HEIGHT of an impractical solution!  Student lab? My
guess is that it was a typical "look at what I know" kind of
suggestion. And finally Tom goes the other way with the suggestion of
Zener diodes. Feh!  Obviously the man has ZERO experience with real
solutions to real measurement problems! Just what students need: One
more incompetently designed lab apparatus that can't possibly work!

Look, I"m not going to do the work for you, but if you want an
apparatus to show students how a bridge works, then just go ask your
electronics shop to build a bunch of voltage standards for you. There
are numerous ICs (integrated circuits) out there that can EASILY do
the job you need. The shop can wire them up to run off of batteries or
wall warts.  And if THAT is too advanced for you then simply write out
a requisition for a box of 1.35 volt E12N mercury batteries. If new,
they'll be more than good enough for the job.

I'm getting REALLY worried here about the education of the next
generation of scientists!
Tom Potter - 12 Jul 2008 15:58 GMT
>> If I wanted some low cost, precision, voltage sources, for student use,
>> I would make or buy low voltage, zener diode, power supplies.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> I'm getting REALLY worried here about the education of the next
> generation of scientists!

Hey "Benj",
if the man wants the students to learn how to make
precision measurements of voltage,
and he wants to check out their work,

what would you use for the reference in your
battery driven, voltage source,
other than a temperature compensated zener diode?

Signature

Tom Potter

http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm

Benj - 13 Jul 2008 07:29 GMT
> Hey "Benj",
> if the man wants the students to learn how to make
> precision measurements of voltage,
> and he wants to check out their work,

Actually no he doesn't. He wants to acquaint the students with the
principles of a potentiometer.  If he wanted them to learn to make
precision measurements of voltage he'd get them modern high precision
digital voltmeters!

> what would you use for the reference in your
> battery driven, voltage source,
> other than a temperature compensated zener diode?

I already said what I'd use.  Note the principle of a potentiometer.
A unknown source is measured by comparison with a variable precisely
known voltage.  The two sources are bucked against each other through
a sensitive detector (meter). When the two voltages are exactly equal
there is no current through the detector and the unknown voltage can
be read off of the calibrated source.  Why is this device useful?  Why
would it be better than some high precision digital voltmeter?  All
things students need to learn. The answer, of course, is that because
the voltage is measured at a point where no current flows, the
internal impedance of the unknown has no voltage drop (V = IR) and
provides no error to the measurement. A digital voltmeter, on the
other hand may have 10 or even 100 megs input impedance but how much
error that will produce depends on the internal impedance of the
source (students can calculate!).

The problem then is generating the known variable voltage. The old
school way is a voltage divider run by a big battery. That can be
switched precision resistors or the "slide wire" which is a way
convert the % division of a divider into distance which can then be
measured with some precision.  Note that while this source doesn't
need to supply any current the divider itself takes current to run. So
how does one produce a stable source of variable voltage? Well again
"old school" is to use the divider to measure a KNOWN voltage and then
ADJUST the current in the divider until when the divider is set to the
known value, the detector reads zero. In other words you CALIBRATE
it.  So where does that "known" voltage come from? Well Harold used to
use Weston standard cells. But these are so "old school" you can't get
them anymore!  So what to do?

You suggest a zener diode. Very BAD idea. Zener diodes are not very
precision voltage sources even in the "precision" ones! They are
temperature sensitive and current sensitive as well. Sure good enough
for some computer power supply reference, but we are talking
"precision" measurements here. So what do we do? Well, OK. We are
talking semantics here because what we do is take your precision zener
diode and then we surround it with all manner of regulation and
compensation. We make sure the current through it is never changing to
some high precision. We compensate for it's temperature coefficients.
We extract the reference voltage off it with a ultra high impedance
follower and then we have to make sure that "follower" itself does not
introduce gain changes with temperature and supply voltages. And if we
want REAL precision we put the whole damn thing in a precision oven
that keeps the temperature constant to a faction of a degree. And on
and on.

So what did I suggest? A voltage reference IC! And what is that? Well
it's your zener diode on a chip with a huge circuit around it that
does all the stuff I just talked about. They are cheap.  And they work
accurately enough for the student experiments. It's what is inside the
digital voltmeter to give it ITS reference voltage!  Of course if you
REALLY want to get serious about voltage measurements then you need
something like the Fluke instrument where they've tracked down ALL
sources of error to the nth decimal place.  But that is hardly needed
to show students what a potentiometer is all about.

My other suggestion was the mercury battery.  They will work pretty
well because they are reasonably stable when new, they can withstand
current being drawn (which standard cells don't like) and can be
individually measured for open circuit voltage before the experiments
and will pretty much retain that voltage unless abused.  No they
aren't "real" standard cells, and have a slightly higher voltage but
they aren't bad. They are reasonably stable with temperature in a room
temperature environment. Harold would have to judge if they are good
enough for his purposes.  They are a "poor man's" standard cell.  But
the ICs are better as batteries need replaced and cost money.  But
they are quick and dirty answers if your standard cells are all dead.
Note that you need a precision voltmeter to measure these batteries
before use. In a way this is sort of like the calibration of the
potentiometer in that we are relying on the stability of the batteries
rather than the absolute accuracy of the output as in a standard cell.
(Though they are calibrated as well)

Personally, if this were my class I'd have some voltage reference IC
supplies made on plexiglas so you could see the circuit. I'd give the
students the IC data sheet to acquaint them with "modern" voltage
references. I'd show them the old Standard cells for a historical
perspective and if the cells still more or less worked I'd have them
measure their voltage just for grins. And this is all added onto the
"potentiometer" concept. Yeah. make it ALL a learning experience. But
hey, it's not my class, and it's not my job. I've already said too
much here.
hhc314@yahoo.com - 14 Jul 2008 19:18 GMT
> > Hey "Benj",
> > if the man wants the students to learn how to make
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
> hey, it's not my class, and it's not my job. I've already said too
> much here.

No Benj, you have not said too much, and what you have said in this
post is absolutely correct.

Harry C.
hhc314@yahoo.com - 12 Jul 2008 19:49 GMT
> > If I wanted some low cost, precision, voltage sources, for student use,
> > I would make or buy low voltage, zener diode, power supplies.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> I'm getting REALLY worried here about the education of the next
> generation of scientists!

Benj, me too!

Benj, just as information. As a Drexel coop student assigned to a frim
called Barker & Williamson in Bristol, PA, my first assigned project
was to design an electronics based standard cell substite that met all
of the requirements of a US Government procurement. This was circa
1959.

Now while my design was rather primitive by todays mesures, it worked
quite well, an met all of the government specifications.It's been many
years ago, but as I recall it used used as a reference voltage the
drop across a forward biased silicon diode under constant current and
housed in a small box that maintained a temperature of 90-degrees C.
Its required stability was +/- 2-microvolts.

Agan, IIRC, B&W lost the contract to PARC (Princeton Applied Research
Corporation) in Princeton, NJ. This is how I know that devices of this
type are commonly available.

Then too, like you I wonder what sort of kook would need this sort of
accuracy and precision for student demonstrations to undergraduates?
For heavens sake, he mentions that he is using a slide wire
potentiometer presumable in a bridge circuit to measure an unknown
emf. Good demonstation, but he could just as easily use an ordinary D-
cell battery with an equal result.  All that you have to do is scale
the reulting measurement based on a measurement of the voltage output
of the reference battery.

Again, America is definitely being dumbed down.  Clueless teachers
like this are speeding the process. Lord knows what sort of a
galvanometer he is using to detect the null.

Harry C.
Daniel A. Thomas - 12 Jul 2008 09:15 GMT
> In or Physics labs we do an experiment to find the EMF of an unknown
> cell. We use a slide wire potentiometer and among other things a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Chattanooga TN 37403
> Harold-Climer@utc.edu

Here is a reference to the Josephson methodology which is a quantum voltage
standard.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/486231/quantum-mechanics/77527/A-quant
um-voltage-standard#tab=active~checked%2Citems~checked&title=quantum%20mechanics
%20%3A%3A%20A%20quantum%20voltage%20standard%20--%20Britannica%20Online%20Encycl
opedia


Dan Thomas
 
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