 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / July 2008THE KILLING FIELDS OF GREATER HAZLETON PA. ... Cancer Capital
< Greater Hazleton... Where You Live, Work and Die an Agonizing Death < http://www.cancercapital.com < , > < > Greater Hazleton... > Where You Live, Work and Die an Agonizing Death > < > http://www.cancercapital.com > < There was a cure for cancer 50 years ago: http://www.altcancer.com/vidgal.htm#hoxsey >> < >> Greater Hazleton... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There was a cure for cancer 50 years ago: That is extremely unlikely to be a true statement. It is far, far more likely to be a false representation intended to take money from the desperate. If you think there was such a cure, please explain why medical professionals don't *ever* use it to prevent themselves and their loved ones from dying agonizing deaths. In order for your claim to show any merit, you *must* convincingly explain why these people allow this pain and these deaths to occur. What, exactly, would they gain? Do you honestly believe they would not take any reasonable - or perhaps unreasonable - action to save themselves or their families? As to what's to gain - well, your link *sells things* with bogus medical claims and is clearly just a shameful example of commercial exploitation of the desperately ill. Hope this helps. -pk >> < >> Greater Hazleton... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > There was a cure for cancer 50 years ago: > http://www.altcancer.com/vidgal.htm#hoxsey The truth of this claim is that it's known to be false, and worse, because of their estrogenic activity, some of the Hoxsey and Cansema ingredients can actually *stimulate* some kinds of estrogen-sensitive cancer tumor growth, in particular some breast cancers. That bears repeating - components in these "treatments" can *accelerate* tumor growth with some forms of cancer. But I don't think I saw a single mention of that little detail on the "altcancer" site, which is run by Alpha Omega Labs. I wonder why not. Perhaps it would cut into sales; they are, after all, in the "cancer cure" business. Or they are, again, now that they're out of jail and safely out of the USA. Or perhaps they are just ignorant of the properties of their products, and of different cancers. But there's no reason to let that get in the way of an income... and it sure doesn't look like they are doing any studies to examine the possibility. There is not now and has never been any scientific support whatsoever for the claim that these products cure cancer, and certainly not in a generic sense. The summary of existing Hoxsey studies show an 11.4% survival rate after 5 years, and it appears that in the best case (survival of 10 years after Hoxsey treatment) summaries, seven of the nine subjects also had conventional treatments, some *at the same time*. There's no way to identify what helped them. And around 43% of the subjects were "lost to follow-up" so there is no way to compare the effectiveness with any other treatment. The promoters of this "treatment" are apparently just out to make money from the desperate. And they can make a lot. It seems that they see the amount of money that is spent on cancer research, and think that some of that can go to them without the work or responsibility. They don't appear to be sponsoring the studies that would prove the value of the substances. I wonder why not. The owner, or former owner, of Alpha Omega labs, whose site it is that "Ralph" promotes, recently got out of jail for promoting these things as cancer cures. In 2004, he was sentenced to 33 months plus 3 years supervision. Sounds like he's back at it, but this time, they've moved to Ecuador to avoid prosecution. Hoxsey apparently used the motto ""The world is made up of two kinds of people-dem that takes and dem that gets took." And in fact, Hoxsey himself proved that his "cure" doesn't work. He developed prostate cancer; he didn't respond to his own treatment and opted for conventional surgery and lived another seven years. http://documents.cancer.org/6516.00/ "Hoxsey developed prostate cancer in 1967. When he did not respond to his own treatment, Hoxsey underwent conventional surgery. He died seven years later. [...] What is the evidence? There is no evidence that the Hoxsey herbal treatment has any value in the treatment of cancer in humans. In 1946, the National Cancer Institute reviewed 77 case reports of Hoxsey's patients and concluded that none of them met the criteria for scientific evaluation. [..] Are there any possible problems or complications? The paste made for external application can severely burn, disfigure, and scar the skin. Some of the ingredients in the internal formula, such as buckthorn, can cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea when taken in large quantities. Cascara can also cause diarrhea. Pokeweed is a poisonous plant that can also cause undesirable side effects such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal cramps. Red clover may increase the risk of bleeding for people who take anticoagulant (blood thinning) medications. It also has estrogenic activity, which means it should be avoided by women with estrogen-positive breast tumors. Women who are pregnant or breast-feeding should not use this treatment in any form. Relying on this type of treatment alone, and avoiding conventional medical care, may have serious health consequences." http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/eschar.html " In recent years, scientists have found chemicals that can destroy certain superficial skin cancers. Except for these, however, corrosive agents are worthless against cancer and cannot be legally marketed for that purpose in the United States. [...] Salves intended for the treatment of cancers cannot be legally marketed. The FDA has banned the importation of all "black salve" products, including Cansema Black, Topical Salve, Cansema Deep Tissue, Cansema w/Lugol's Iodine (topical), Cansema for Cats, Dogs, and Horses, Cansema Tonic I, Cansema Tonic II, Cansema Tonic III, Cansema Capsules, Cansema Suppositories, Bloodroot Paste, C-Herb Paste, CAN-X, Cancerx, H3O, and Healing Formula [2]. In 2004, Gregory James Caton, of Lake Charles, Louisiana, was sentenced to 33 months imprisonment to be followed by 3 years supervised release for marketing several products with claims that they could cure cancer and other diseases. Court documents indicate that from 1999 to 2003, doing business as Alpha Omega Labs, Caton and his employees sold Cancema Tonic III (a purported cancer cure) and H3O (claimed to be effective against athlete's foot, cuts and burns, eczema, fingernail fungus, chronic gas, gastroenteritis, gingivitis and periodontal disease, halitosis, herpes sores, ophthalmia, psoriasis, sore throat, strep throat, and wounds) " Hope this helps. -pk i want to go there in that case > "Ralph" <nospam@noway.net> wrote in message > > There was a cure for cancer 50 years ago: > > http://www.altcancer.com/vidgal.htm#hoxsey > The summary of existing Hoxsey studies show an 11.4% survival rate after 5 > years Hoxsey claimed an 80% survival rate of people written off by the mainstream as terminal. > The owner, or former owner, of Alpha Omega labs, whose site it is that > "Ralph" promotes, recently got out of jail for promoting these things as > cancer cures. That's exactly what happens to people promoting alternatives to chemotherapy. > Sounds like he's back at it, but this time, they've moved to > Ecuador to avoid prosecution. Those offering cures do typically flee the country. There's a bunch of alternative cancer doctors in Mexico. > Hoxsey apparently used the motto ""The world is made up of two kinds of > people-dem that takes and dem that gets took." > > And in fact, Hoxsey himself proved that his "cure" doesn't work. Those offering credible alternatives do find themselves mysteriously dying of the disease they sought to cure. Wouldn't surprise me if he had been poisoned. > http://documents.cancer.org/6516.00/ That's funny you should mention the American Cancer Society of which the highest ranking "quack" was a board member on when he was blackballed. Professor Ivy had taught at medical school and did medical research. He was fired from his job as the vice president of the University of Illinois when he announced he was beginning clinical trials of Krebiozen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebiozen > There is no evidence that the Hoxsey herbal treatment has any value in the > treatment of cancer in humans. In 1946, the National Cancer Institute > reviewed 77 case reports of Hoxsey's patients and concluded that none of > them met the criteria for scientific evaluation. Hoxsey was arrested about 200 times. He was never convicted because no jury would ever vote to convict him because Hoxsey never had any shortage of patients who would testify that their regular doctor wrote them off as terminal and Hoxsey cured them, and that would be 5, 10 or even 15 years ago. And these weren't people pulled off the street. These included prominent citizens the jury would know. Even the DA who arrested Hoxsey over 100 times became a Hoxsey supporter when his brother secretly went to Hoxsey and was cured. I'd trust these court cases more than I'd trust studies done by big medicine. The medical industry keeps getting richer and we keep getting sicker. If they were so smart and honest we'd be getting healthier and health care costs would be going down. Most people who take chemotherapy end up dead with their life savings in the hands of rich doctors. Do the math > The paste made for external application can severely burn, disfigure, and > scar the skin. You should see the kind of disfiguring mainstream doctors do on cancer patients with surgery. > Some of the ingredients in the internal formula, such as > buckthorn, can cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea when taken in large > quantities. Minor side effects compared to chemo. > http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/eschar.html "Quackwatch" even includes Professor Andrew Ivy in its list of quacks. This guy taught medical school and was the vice president of the University of Illinois. A "quack" is someone who claims to have medical skills which he does not possess. How is this guy a quack? http://www.quackwatch.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=Krebiozen > " In recent years, scientists have found chemicals that can destroy certain > superficial skin cancers. Except for these, however, corrosive agents are > worthless against cancer and cannot be legally marketed for that purpose in > the United States. During congressional hearings the President of the AMA admitted that the Hoxsey external treatment does cure cancer. > Salves intended for the treatment of cancers cannot be legally marketed. And now you know why. > In 2004, Gregory James Caton, of Lake Charles, Louisiana, was sentenced to > 33 months imprisonment to be followed by 3 years supervised release for > marketing several products with claims that they could cure cancer and other > diseases. Mainstream medicine is very jealous of any competitors. It's 1/6th the US economy, they keep getting richer and we keep getting sicker. Do the math. >> "Ralph" <nospam@noway.net> wrote in message > >> > There was a cure for cancer 50 years ago: >> > http://www.altcancer.com/vidgal.htm#hoxsey Left out rather a lot, didn't you? I'm not surprised that you can't deal with it. >> The summary of existing Hoxsey studies show an 11.4% survival rate after >> 5 >> years > > Hoxsey claimed an 80% survival rate of people written off by the > mainstream as terminal. Perhaps he did claim this. Note the term "claimed". But he was unable to actually *document* his claims, and nobody has been able to repeat it. There's a reason he wasn't able to actually document his claims, despite selling his cure to, what, 1200 people per year - the claims are false. If he could cure 80% of terminal patients with a formula that was published, why don't medical professionals use it themselves when they find that their families or they themselves contract cancer? Why do they choose painful death instead? Money? Do you think they torture and kill their own families and themselves for the money? >> The owner, or former owner, of Alpha Omega labs, whose site it is that >> "Ralph" promotes, recently got out of jail for promoting these things as >> cancer cures. > > That's exactly what happens to people promoting alternatives to > chemotherapy. Especially when they are *ineffective* and *fraudulent*. Note the emphasis on the *ineffective* and *fraudulent*. >> Sounds like he's back at it, but this time, they've moved to >> Ecuador to avoid prosecution. > > Those offering cures do typically flee the country. Especially when these "cures" are fraudulent. They go to places where they can victimize and defraud more people while taking advantage of lax legislation. Fleeing in the face of challenge isn't a sign of moral strength. > There's a bunch of > alternative cancer doctors in Mexico. And none, surprise surprise, are able to convincingly document their claims as valid. And there's a very good and very simple reason for that. They can't. >> Hoxsey apparently used the motto ""The world is made up of two kinds of >> people-dem that takes and dem that gets took." >> >> And in fact, Hoxsey himself proved that his "cure" doesn't work. > > Those offering credible alternatives Hoxsey is not amongst those. His "cure" is clearly not credible - he couldn't even get it to work on himself! > do find themselves mysteriously > dying of the disease they sought to cure. Note that he could not cure himself. His cure did not work. He recognised this and went for surgery. It's telling that you avoid this reality. > Wouldn't surprise me if he had > been poisoned. What a convenent situation! Please identify the "poisons" that can selectively cause prostate cancer. Show how it was administered to Hoxsey. Was it as a salve? Perhaps his own? But you are in a sense correct, since some of the ingredients in the Hoxsey "cure" can actually accelerate tumor growth and make an exsting cancer worse. >> http://documents.cancer.org/6516.00/ > > That's funny you should mention the American Cancer Society of which the > highest ranking "quack" was a board member on when he was blackballed. And this was for very, very good reason. He was very, very bad at his research. Reporting a patient as healthy and active for four years after death isn't really an indication of competence. Sometimes it takes a while to get caught. > Professor Ivy had taught at medical school and did medical research. Yes, and his "medical research" into Krebiozen was incredibly incompetent. > He > was fired from his job as the vice president of the University of > Illinois when he announced he was beginning clinical trials of > Krebiozen: It's hard for me to imagine that anyone would think that this compensates for the complete lack of scientific support for the claim. Apparently, you've never had a manager who somehow rose to a position of authority despite being utterly clueless. And apparently, you think that nobody would check on the extremely poor research skills of the former Dr. Ivy and the harm he caused. In fact, his "research" into Krebiozen was so poor and unscientific - and outright fraudulent, it's not reasonable to class it as medical research. Note in the section below that he presents results not to other doctors or scientists, but to the press and investors. He misrepresents to these investors the cause of death of 8 patients as not being from cancer, when the patients died "with and of cancer". http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/krebiozen.html "On March 27, 1951, Dr. Ivy decided to announce his findings, but he did not do this to a scientific audience. A press conference was held in the Drake Hotel to which the science writers of four Chicago papers, the Mayor of Chicago, two United States Senators, and potential financial supporters were invited, in addition to some doctors. Results on 22 patients were presented. Of the 22, 8 were dead, according to the table in a booklet distributed at the meeting, but in not a single instance was cancer listed as the cause of death. In each of the 8 instances, however, as was brought out at the trial, the patient died with and of cancer. Furthermore, 2 more of the 22 patients had died, one 7 days and one 2 days prior to the meeting, both from cancer. Dr. W.F.P. Phillips, a colleague of Dr. Ivy's, attended the meeting. His patient had died two days before, but he didn't mention it at the meeting. The description in the summary still stood as: "dramatical clinical improvement. Now working all day without opiates. Patient had to be carried, couldn't walk. [...] As an example, Orme Moritz suffered. She had read about krebiozen and thus refused surgery for primary cancer of the breast. She was accepted for study by the Krebiozen Research Foundation and for approximately one year, in 1958, received krebiozen. The records at the Krebiozen Research Foundation show her case at that time as "early operable." The tumor doubled in size while she was on krebiozen. Finally in September, 1958, after nearly a year's delay, Drs. Ivy and Durovic recommended a radical mastectomy. She died 10 months later of metastatic cancer of the lung from adenocarcinoma. of the breast. This is a sad tale of delay and avoidance of what might have been curative treatment because of unfounded hope that krebiozen treatment might make surgery unnecessary. How many similarly lost their chance for effective treatment because of krebiozen is unknown." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebiozen > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hoxsey was arrested about 200 times. It's too bad that they didn't keep him in jail to prevent him victimizing more people. > He was never convicted because no Mostly because few prosecutors or juries had the technical backgrounds required for such cases. There's a reason that patent and pharmaceutical cases are now tried in specially-trained court divisions. > jury would ever vote to convict him because Hoxsey never had any > shortage of patients who would testify that their regular doctor wrote > them off as terminal and Hoxsey cured them, And yet, there is a remarkable lack of documentation for this claim. There's a difference between scientific reality and the law. Science is much, much stricter. Remember that John Scopes *was* convicted. > and that would be 5, 10 or > even 15 years ago. And these weren't people pulled off the street. These > included prominent citizens the jury would know. So where is the documentation? Where are the studies? Where are the reproduced results? Were the jurors capable of evaluating medical and scientific data? > Even the DA who > arrested Hoxsey over 100 times became a Hoxsey supporter when his > brother secretly went to Hoxsey and was cured. And you have documentation for this "secret" cure, right? > I'd trust these court cases more than I'd trust studies done by big > medicine. There are always gullible and desperate people around, and that's what people like Hoxsey leech off. Incidentally, one of the reasons that abortion became legal in Canada is that Henry Morgethaler was willing to stand up in court, and juries tended to not convict him regardless of the letter of the laws. This is called "jury nullification". He didn't flee the country to seek new victims. He stayed where he was, and stood up again and again. So by your apparent criteria, you are also in favour of abortion simply because Morgenthaler was arrested repeatedly and stood up again and again and did not flee. > The medical industry keeps getting richer Another reference to money. How that seems to attract you. > and we keep getting sicker. Actually, cancer rates *are not increasing* in jurisdictions where people avoid known risks, such as smoking. In fact, in Canada, over the last eight years, it has dropped somewhat. That's an interesting indication of your research skills. > If they were so smart and honest we'd be getting healthier Which, in fact, *is the case* if you're in an area where cancer-causing substances, like tobacco, are now discouraged. In areas where pollution is abundant and growing and smoking is common, such as China, cancer rates are increasing. This has nothing to do with the medical establishment and lots to do with government industrial policies. It's worth noting again that cancer rates are growing in China, despite its "alternative medical" culture. These alternatives just don't work as advertised. > and > health care costs would be going down. Not necessarily. We tend to extend the reach and accessbility of health care. We have unhealthy habits. We smoke, we drink, we are inactive, we eat poorly, we expose ourselves to toxins in the air and water. We seek help when it's late and expensive rather than preventing it in the first place. But yes, technology is expensive, especally medical technology, which carries huge liability potential. Your quacks tend to run from those liabilities. Like someone we're talking about now. > Most people who take chemotherapy > end up dead Everyone ends up dead. Chemotherapy can, in reality, extend the lives of many patients. This is well documented and reproducible. In this way, chemo is utterly unlike the Hoxsey "treatments". > with their life savings Again with the money! This is a pronounced theme for you. > in the hands of rich doctors. Instead, those life savings should go to Hoxsey, Alpha Omega, and you, right? > Do the > math Doing the math is exactly why people like Hoxsey promote false cancer "cures". They did the math, and they see the money they can make off the desperate. Dead people don't sue. >> The paste made for external application can severely burn, disfigure, and >> scar the skin. > > You should see the kind of disfiguring mainstream doctors do on cancer > patients with surgery. I'm well aware of the results of cancers and effects of treatments. Cancer does this by itself, too. It isn't a pretty disease. Hoxsey is no cure. These fraudulent salves can cause a great deal of harm, they do not differentiate between healthy tissue and tumors, and there is no genuine evidence that they have any value as cancer treatment. Produce the studies to prove they do have this value - if you can. And let's not forget that some of the components of the Hoxsey "cures" can actually worsen some cancers. >> Some of the ingredients in the internal formula, such as >> buckthorn, can cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea when taken in large >> quantities. > > Minor side effects compared to chemo. Chemo, on the other hand, *can* lead to remission, and this has been shown repeatedly. There is no real evidence that the fake treatments sold by "alternative" sources have any such efficacy. By all means, prove me wrong. Produce the peer-reviewed and repeated studies to show that they work. But I notice that you clipped out and ran from the estrogen references and the "side effects" that can cause - accelerated tumor growth. Got you worried, did it? >> http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/eschar.html > > "Quackwatch" even includes Professor Andrew Ivy in its list of quacks. As well it should. So was Ewen Cameron, for that matter. > This guy taught medical school and was the vice president of the > University of Illinois. A "quack" is someone who claims to have medical > skills which he does not possess. How is this guy a quack? Because he promoted a worthless treatment despite the reality of the results and the outright harm he caused his patients. It's a very good example of very, very, very bad science. He may have had medical skills at one time - he lost them, and didn't stop when that happened. For example, one patient he "tracked" he never met, and unquestioningly relied on second-hand reports from someone who had a financial interest in the outcome. He reported that that patient was "well and active" until 1959. That was *four years after the patient died*. This is *not* the guy you want to be presenting as a model of scientific rigour. > http://www.quackwatch.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=Krebiozen You will see from the links on that page that 79.5% of the 3,300 doctors who tried Krebiozen on patients didn't try it on more than one patient. Out of the 3,300 doctors who tried Krebiozen on patients, 92% didn't treat more than two patients with it. Doesn't that pronounced lack of enthusiasm tell you *anything* about its effectiveness? Or perhaps you're going to tell us that all 3,300 doctors were individually tracked down and inducted into a conspiracy to kill their patients? >> " In recent years, scientists have found chemicals that can destroy >> certain [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > During congressional hearings the President of the AMA admitted that the > Hoxsey external treatment does cure cancer. Please detail who "admitted" this, *where* this was "admitted", *which* cancers were "admitted" as being"cured", the studies used to support this "admission" and why Hoxsley himself opted for conventional surgery after HIS OWN CURE DID NOT CURE HIS OWN CANCER. Again, Hoxsey proved with his own body that his treatment does not cure cancer. He went for surgery after it failed. >> Salves intended for the treatment of cancers cannot be legally marketed. > > And now you know why. Yes. It's because they are proven ineffective and harmful. They are fraudulent. Hoxsey proved this. There just isn't any scientific evidence to show that they aren't fraudulent. Most developed societies officially frown on fraud. Most people don't approve of those who victimize the old, desperate and sick. And that's why these salves can't be marketed. >> In 2004, Gregory James Caton, of Lake Charles, Louisiana, was sentenced >> to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mainstream medicine is very jealous of any competitors. Again with the financial references! > It's 1/6th the US economy, If you say so. But you find that figure tempting, don't you? You keep bringing up the money issue, and ignoring the scientific realities. > they keep getting richer And another reference to money! > and we keep getting sicker. Though that statement, like so many you've made, isn't really supportable or accurate. In areas where cancer risk factors are reduced, overall health is improving. Don't smoke, exercise, eat better, relax, you'll live longer and healthier. This effect has nothing whatsoever to do with these fraudulent products whose sale you are promoting. But as we age, and we do on average live longer than ever before, our bodies will fail in various ways, and that does include cancers. False "treatments" like Krebiozen and the Hoxsey fraud can't do anything about these and they never have been able to. > Do the math. Yes, yes, you've made your point clear, it's all about money for you, isn't it? It has nothing to do with personal pain or grief, watching your friends and familes die in agony. You make that very clear with your repeated references to the very large amounts of money spent on cancer research and health care. And you are trying to get some of those dollars shuffled your way, aren't you? I notice with great interest that you not only failed to comment on, but removed without mention , the statement that some components of the Hoxsey and Alpha Omega Labs "cancer treatments" can actually *worsen* cancers and *accelerate* tumor growth. Soy products can do the same thing. Is there a reason you didn't want to address that? Cuts into sales, does it? You also do not address the question of why so many thousands and thousands and thousands of medical professionals would, for decades, allow themselves and their loved ones to suffer terribly and die agonizing deaths instead of reaching for the simple cure you say is there. The answer to that question is simple: it isn't there. I expect that you genuinely know this. Hope this helps. -pk > >> "Ralph" <nospam@noway.net> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > But he was unable to actually *document* his claims, and nobody has been > able to repeat it. They had plenty of documents, but the mainstream refused to accept them. > There's a reason he wasn't able to actually document his claims, despite > selling his cure to, what, 1200 people per year - the claims are false. So all those people perjured themselves to help Hoxsey? > If he could cure 80% of terminal patients with a formula that was published, > why don't medical professionals use it themselves when they find that their > families or they themselves contract cancer? I wouldn't doubt some of them secretly did, but it's generally a career buster if they are discovered to support the competition. > Why do they choose painful death instead? Money? People are brainwashed to accept the mainstream's version of things. > Do you think they torture and kill their own families and themselves for the > money? [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Hoxsey is not amongst those. His "cure" is clearly not credible - he > couldn't even get it to work on himself! The President of the AMA himself admitting before Congress that the Hoxsey external treatment does cure cancer. After that the FBI and FDA dropped their attacks on Hoxsey's external cure and went after him over his internal treatment. > > do find themselves mysteriously > > dying of the disease they sought to cure. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Please identify the "poisons" that can selectively cause prostate cancer. I don't know. I suppose the medical Mafia found out which types of cancer Hoxsey couldn't cure and figured out how to cause it. Doctors are capable of doing great harm as they are good. Did you know as Hoxsey was doing a radio interview someone did a drive-by and shot up the radio station? > Show how it was administered to Hoxsey. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "cure" can actually accelerate tumor growth and make an exsting cancer > worse. Chemotherapy can actually cause cancer. > >> http://documents.cancer.org/6516.00/ > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Reporting a patient as healthy and active for four years after death isn't > really an indication of competence. Professor Ivy taught medical school you idiot. > Sometimes it takes a while to get caught. It was two weeks after he made the announcement that he was beginning clinical trials that he was blackballed. > > Professor Ivy had taught at medical school and did medical research. > > Yes, and his "medical research" into Krebiozen was incredibly incompetent. And you know this how? > > He > > was fired from his job as the vice president of the University of [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > improvement. Now working all day without opiates. Patient had to be carried, > couldn't walk. They didn't die on treatment. The whole thing was shut down. Professor Ivy did eventually clear his name, but it took him about 10 years. Several government agents were convicted of jury tampering along the way. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > So where is the documentation? Where are the studies? Where are the > reproduced results? I did my own personal study and found that nearly everyone I knew that went the chemotherapy - radiation route soon after died. The one person who survived didn't look sick to begin with. > Were the jurors capable of evaluating medical and scientific data? You don't think they can tell if they are sick or not? > > Even the DA who > > arrested Hoxsey over 100 times became a Hoxsey supporter when his > > brother secretly went to Hoxsey and was cured. > > And you have documentation for this "secret" cure, right? Just deny, deny, deny. > > I'd trust these court cases more than I'd trust studies done by big > > medicine. > > There are always gullible and desperate people around, and that's what > people like Hoxsey leech off. Hoxsey made a death bed promise to his father (who invented the treatment) that he would treat anyone whether or not they could pay. As far as I know this policy is still in place at the one remaining clinic. Hoxsey was an oil man and he used his oil money to keep his clinics alive. Hoxsey was not in it for the money. > Incidentally, one of the reasons that abortion became legal in Canada is > that Henry Morgethaler was willing to stand up in court, and juries tended [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > because Morgenthaler was arrested repeatedly and stood up again and again > and did not flee. You're assuming Hoxsey got off by "jury nullification". The President of the AMA admitted before congress that the Hoxsey external treatment does cure cancer. > > The medical industry keeps getting richer > > Another reference to money. How that seems to attract you. Hoxsey didn't charge that much. In fact, if you couldn't pay he treated you for free. > > and we keep getting sicker. > > Actually, cancer rates *are not increasing* in jurisdictions where people > avoid known risks, such as smoking. In fact, in Canada, over the last > eight years, it has dropped somewhat. When they began that "early testing" the cure rate went up, but so did the number of cases, which means they were treating people who weren't really sick. > That's an interesting indication of your research skills. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Your quacks tend to run from those liabilities. Like someone we're > talking about now. Professor Ivy was hardly a quack, but they tried to label him as one. The code name for competition is "quackery". > > Most people who take chemotherapy > > end up dead > > Everyone ends up dead. Chemotherapy can, in reality, extend the lives of > many patients. This is well documented and reproducible. Most people I knew personally who went the chemo/radiation route died soon after. > In this way, chemo is utterly unlike the Hoxsey "treatments". > > > with their life savings > > Again with the money! This is a pronounced theme for you. You don't have to pay for the Hoxsey treatment if you are unable to. > > in the hands of rich doctors. > > Instead, those life savings should go to Hoxsey, Alpha Omega, and you, > right? You don't have to pay for the Hoxsey treatment if you are unable to. > > Do the > > math [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They did the math, and they see the money they can make off the desperate. With mainstream medicine the average cost per cancer patient is $400,000 to $700,000 > Dead people don't sue. 500,000 Americans die of cancer every year, most of whom take chemotherapy, but one person die while on an alternative treatment and it's lawsuit time. And it doesn't matter how sick the person was to begin with. > >> The paste made for external application can severely burn, disfigure, and > >> scar the skin. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cancer does this by itself, too. It isn't a pretty disease. Hoxsey is no > cure. Hoxsey cured cancer. > These fraudulent salves can cause a great deal of harm, they do not > differentiate between healthy tissue and tumors, One type does, the other doesn't. > and there is no genuine > evidence that they have any value as cancer treatment. They had plenty of evidence during those court cases. > Produce the studies to prove they do have this value - if you can. > > And let's not forget that some of the components of the Hoxsey "cures" can > actually worsen some cancers. You won't find them published because when someone tries they get attacked. They get discredited and blackballed. > >> Some of the ingredients in the internal formula, such as > >> buckthorn, can cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea when taken in large [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > He may have had medical skills at one time - he lost them, and didn't stop > when that happened. You know that exactly how? At the time he was blackballed he was the VP of a university and doing medical research and a board member on the American Cancer Society. > For example, one patient he "tracked" he never met, and unquestioningly > relied on second-hand reports from someone who had a financial interest in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This is *not* the guy you want to be presenting as a model of scientific > rigour. He was still able to clear his name through the courts. > > http://www.quackwatch.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=Krebiozen > > You will see from the links on that page that 79.5% of the 3,300 doctors > who tried Krebiozen on patients didn't try it on more than one patient. Is this made up facts? > Out of the 3,300 doctors who tried Krebiozen on patients, 92% didn't treat > more than two patients with it. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > If you say so. But you find that figure tempting, don't you? You keep > bringing up the money issue, It was 1/7th the US economy before Bush signed that big handout to pharmaceuticals. > and ignoring the scientific realities. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > it? It has nothing to do with personal pain or grief, watching your > friends and familes die in agony. You mean like on chemo? > You make that very clear with your repeated references to the very large > amounts of money spent on cancer research and health care. And you are > trying to get some of those dollars shuffled your way, aren't you? The average cost per cancer patient going with mainstream medicine is $400,000 to $700,000. With an estimated 1.4 new cancer patients in the US, if all diagnosed got treatment, that's $770 billion per year. That buys a lot of studies and influence. "It is not as expensive as many therapies - it costs only $3500 for the therapy no matter how long it takes, with 30% due at the first appointment. " http://www.cancure.org/hoxsey_clinic.htm While Harry Hoxsey was alive his clinics would treat people whether or not they could pay which was a death bed promise he made to his father who developed the treatment. I don't know if it is still the case today. > I notice with great interest that you not only failed to comment on, but > removed without mention , the statement that some components of the Hoxsey [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and their loved ones to suffer terribly and die agonizing deaths instead of > reaching for the simple cure you say is there. Because they would lose their licence to practice. It wouldn't surprise me if some do secretly go to alternative clinics, but to speak out about it would cost them their careers. I was told by one dentist that another dentist in a neighboring town lost his licence to practice after he was quoted in the local newspaper saying that a neurological disorder was cured by removing a girl's "silver fillings" (which are 50% mercury). Well, I repeated this story several times and apparently it got back to my dentist and on my next visit he denied ever saying it. I've gotten a mouth full of cavities drinking fluoridated water, but haven't developed one more since I started using hydrogen peroxide for a mouthwash. I sent someone I met on-line who was a kind of nurse a VHS tape of the Hoxsey documentary - He got all excited about it and I warned him not to say anything about it at work, that he could lose his job - He didn't listen and the last I heard of him was that he did. > The answer to that question is simple: it isn't there. I expect that you > genuinely know this. > > Hope this helps. It didn't. > The President of the AMA himself admitting before Congress that the > Hoxsey external treatment does cure cancer. I *SERIOUSLY* doubt you can produce a credible citation for your claim. > > The President of the AMA himself admitting before Congress that the > > Hoxsey external treatment does cure cancer. > > I *SERIOUSLY* doubt you can produce a credible citation for > your claim. I tend to agree with that, There are some new and promising drugs being experimented with, but the odds for cancer survival today dramatically increase when treatment by chemo and/or or radiation is chosen. It only human nature that one is diagnosed with a terminal variety of cancer, the will trust ANYONE promising a cure. Essentially all of the practitioners offering such magical cures are criminals attempting to exploit the desperation of those diagnosed with a terminal form of cancer; hoping to separate the patients from their money before death takes place. Malignant breain tumors are particularly nasty when their location make them inoperative. Another big time killer is prostate cancer, if not timely detected. Newer forms of radiation treatment are sometime effective in prolonging life, but there is no magic bullet. So, when a competent diagnostician tells you "Don't buy green bananas", it's then timely to check and make sure that your Will is current! Be very wary of any of the charlatans offering "magical cures" claiming miraculous results. They often based their claims about the survival of their patients by including results of the success of their treatments who were never competently diagnosed as having cancer in the first place. Trust you insticts and knowledge. If anyone suggest that your cancer can be cured by dietary menthods, Radionics, exposing your body to colored lights of some magic wavelength, it's time to RUN rather than walk away from these quacks! Harry C. >> >> "Ralph" <nospam@noway.net> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > They had plenty of documents, but the mainstream refused to accept them. >> There's a reason he wasn't able to actually document his claims, despite >> selling his cure to, what, 1200 people per year - the claims are false. [quoted text clipped - 660 lines] > > It didn't. >> >> "Ralph" <nospam@noway.net> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > They had plenty of documents, but the mainstream refused to accept them. Thanks for clarifying that you have no understanding of what constitutes scientific or medical documentation. There isn't any of that to support his claims, and nobody has been able to repeat what he claims his results were. >> There's a reason he wasn't able to actually document his claims, despi >> selling his cure to, what, 1200 people per year - the claims are false. > > So all those people perjured themselves to help Hoxsey? Where is the documentation? >> If he could cure 80% of terminal patients with a formula that was >> published, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > People are brainwashed to accept the mainstream's version of things. That doesn't come remotely close to answering the question. >> Do you think they torture and kill their own families and themselves for >> the [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > dropped their attacks on Hoxsey's external cure and went after him over > his internal treatment. If you want to make this claim, you are going to have to support it. Repeating it is not supporting it. >> > do find themselves mysteriously >> > dying of the disease they sought to cure. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I don't know. In other words, you're making it up to account for the fact that Hoxsey developed cancer and his treatments did not cure it. > I suppose the medical Mafia found out which types of > cancer Hoxsey couldn't cure and figured out how to cause it. Doctors are > capable of doing great harm as they are good. Did you know as Hoxsey was > doing a radio interview someone did a drive-by and shot up the radio > station? It's certainly true that a lot of people were not happy with the lack of effectiveness of his treatment. >> Show how it was administered to Hoxsey. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Chemotherapy can actually cause cancer. If it can, your medical team will advise you of this. Alpha Omega does not do so in any way. Either they are not aware of the properties of their product or the diseases they sell it for, or they just don't care. >> >> http://documents.cancer.org/6516.00/ >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Professor Ivy taught medical school you idiot. I didn;t say that he didn't. I said he was incompetent, and proceeded to demonstrate why. >> Sometimes it takes a while to get caught. > > It was two weeks after he made the announcement that he was beginning > clinical trials that he was blackballed. He reported a patient as healthy for *four years* after that patient's death. This is a sign of incompetence. >> > Professor Ivy had taught at medical school and did medical research. >> >> Yes, and his "medical research" into Krebiozen was incredibly >> incompetent. > > And you know this how? Apparently you also have comprehension problems. He reported a patient as healthy for *four years* after that patient's death. This is a sign of incompetence. >> > He >> > was fired from his job as the vice president of the University of [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > went the chemotherapy - radiation route soon after died. The one person > who survived didn't look sick to begin with. Are you referring to Hoxsey patients still, or have you wandered off to another group now? >> Were the jurors capable of evaluating medical and scientific data? > > You don't think they can tell if they are sick or not? No, many people cannot tell if others are sick or not. >> > Even the DA who >> > arrested Hoxsey over 100 times became a Hoxsey supporter when his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Just deny, deny, deny. Which is your way of saying that you can not document this. As far as anyone knows, you just made that up. >> > I'd trust these court cases more than I'd trust studies done by big >> > medicine. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Hoxsey was an oil man and he used his oil money to keep his clinics > alive. Hoxsey was not in it for the money. So you say. He certainly wasn't in it for the science. >> Incidentally, one of the reasons that abortion became legal in Canada is >> that Henry Morgethaler was willing to stand up in court, and juries [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the AMA admitted before congress that the Hoxsey external treatment does > cure cancer. You're going to have to produce a valid citation for that if you want it to be believed. >> > The medical industry keeps getting richer >> >> Another reference to money. How that seems to attract you. > > Hoxsey didn't charge that much. In fact, if you couldn't pay he treated > you for free. So you say. >> > and we keep getting sicker. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the number of cases, which means they were treating people who weren't > really sick. And now you are able to say that someone with an early stage of cancer "isn't really sick"? The time to treat cancer IS early. >> That's an interesting indication of your research skills. >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Professor Ivy was hardly a quack, but they tried to label him as one. > The code name for competition is "quackery". Ex-Professor Ivy may have at one time not been a quack, but he certainly became one. Look above for why. Pay attention and read for comprehension. He promoted a worthless substance as a cure and cost at least one patient her life. >> > Most people who take chemotherapy >> > end up dead [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Most people I knew personally who went the chemo/radiation route died > soon after. I see many who do not. If you leave it very late, chances of recovery diminish. >> In this way, chemo is utterly unlike the Hoxsey "treatments". >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You don't have to pay for the Hoxsey treatment if you are unable to. So you say. But Alpha Omega didn't ship for free, did they? >> > in the hands of rich doctors. >> >> Instead, those life savings should go to Hoxsey, Alpha Omega, and you, >> right? > > You don't have to pay for the Hoxsey treatment if you are unable to. So you say. But Alpha Omega didn't ship for free, did they? >> > Do the >> > math [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Hoxsey cured cancer. You claim this over and over but can not produce any real documentation for it. You cannot produce any trials that show that it works as you say it does. The reason for that is simple. It doesn't do what you say it does. >> These fraudulent salves can cause a great deal of harm, they do not >> differentiate between healthy tissue and tumors, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > They had plenty of evidence during those court cases. Yet you can't produce it. Where are the studies? Ivy killed a paitent by playing with Krebiozen instead of operating. >> Produce the studies to prove they do have this value - if you can. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You won't find them published because when someone tries they get > attacked. They get discredited and blackballed. You won't find them published because the substances don't work as you say they do. >> >> Some of the ingredients in the internal formula, such as >> >> buckthorn, can cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea when taken in [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > of a university and doing medical research and a board member on the > American Cancer Society. >> For example, one patient he "tracked" he never met, and unquestioningly >> relied on second-hand reports from someone who had a financial interest [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > He was still able to clear his name through the courts. Prove this. >> > http://www.quackwatch.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=Krebiozen >> [quoted text clipped - 150 lines] > > Because they would lose their licence to practice. So what? I happen to know more than a few doctors, and they aren't rich. They work extremely long hours and they care about their patients. If there is a working therapy, they *will use it*. > It wouldn't surprise > me if some do secretly go to alternative clinics, but to speak out about [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > It didn't. No, because you have committed to a fraud as a matter of faith. Reality does not matter to you. HTH -pk |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.