Counterintuitivity
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Alen - 08 Nov 2008 05:08 GMT The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the prompting of some mathematical formula, without the application of any other principle that might control and validate its use.
In some circumstances, the counterintuitive can be a useful tool to correct the deficiencies of common sense, or even an inadequate philosophical outlook. In the case of Einstein's train experiment, for example, commom sense would suggest that it is the train that is moving through the countryside, rather than the countryside moving around the stationary train. The principle of relativity, however, points out that there is no law of physics that works any differently in the countryside to the way it works in the train, such that the countryside observer could declare it to be 'correct' that it is the train that is moving in the countryside. Common sense can, indeed, be tutored, and improved, by such counterintuitivity.
One can, as it were, 'hypnotise' oneself, as a passenger on a train, into forming a perception of the train being stationary, with the countryside moving past it, rather than the other way around, with both views being equally thinkable. A dramatic example of relativity can be a direct experience if you are sitting at the window of a carriage, in a station, beside the carriage of another train, on the other track, also stationary. If your train begins to move relative to the other train, you may, on passing the end of the other train, see, to your surprise, that you are still stationary, and that it was really the other train that was moving. Next time it happens, if you remember, you will have no way of telling which train is moving relative to the station (assuming the acceleration of your train is usually imperceptibly smooth), until you can see something in the station itself. That is, you can see only the relative motion between yourself and the other train, so that, if you can suppose the other train to be moving, a passenger in the other train can equally suppose that you are moving, no matter which of you is not moving relative to the station.
However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself is frame dependent. This leads to the end of the concept of universal time for all observers. This, in turn, casts doubt on the philosophical concepts of 'now' and the 'co-existence' of all things. The question is: does this counterintuitivity tutor the mind in any improved philosophical understanding that can replace that which already exists? Unlike with the former example, in this case I would say not. Instead, the counterintuitivity is proposed, with the philosophical implications being simply left unanswered.
I say that this is unsatisfactory, and is of no service to physics, or to the human understanding in general. Therefore, I believe that, to be valid, any counterintuitivity proposed, for example, by a mathematical equation, should be required to be such as to replace the 'intuition', or philosophical understanding, that exists, with something that is a rationally understandable improvement. If this is lacking, any counterintuitive theory will replace any rational component of intuition with sheer mystification, rather than reason, and should therefore be regarded as defective, until such time as the defect is removed with an explanation that is more rational than the original intuition. If this is intrinsically impossible then, I would say, the counterintuitive theory should be reexamined on the supposition that the counterintuitivity itself is, in this case, a sign that the theory can be replaced with an alternative that will provide a rational explanation. I would argue a general postulate that mystification is never an intrinsic property of the relationship between reality and mind as such.
Alen
Androcles - 08 Nov 2008 06:24 GMT > The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic > feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > in the other train can equally suppose that you are moving, > no matter which of you is not moving relative to the station. Try looking down from a plane (you'll need a window seat). From 30,000 feet you can quite easily see the fields passing beneath you. What makes this, the experiment you've just mentioned, and the Dover ferry passing the Calais ferry in the harbour intuitive or counterintuitive is... parallax. When a foreground object passes through your field of view rapidly whilst a background object appears not to to pass as rapidly, then (intuitively), it is you that is moving. The train in the station has foreground but no background (another train obscure the background), the airplane seat has background but no foreground. Either way the result is that the world moves. As the train moves through the countryside there are both foreground and background objects, a tree on the horizon remains in view, the adjacent track and telegraph poles pass by rapidly. In the mid-distance the hedgerow passes by faster than the tree on the horizon but slower than the telegrpah poles. The intuitive conclusion is: you are moving. Without both foreground and background objects in the same field of view you simply cannot tell.
> However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem > posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the mind in any improved philosophical understanding that > can replace that which already exists? YES!
> Unlike with the former > example, in this case I would say not. You've been hypnotised by the power of suggestion and are now attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it) to reinforce your own beliefs.
> Instead, the > counterintuitivity is proposed, with the philosophical > implications being simply left unanswered. I've answered it many times.
> I say that this is unsatisfactory, and is of no service to > physics, or to the human understanding in general. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > philosophical understanding, that exists, with something > that is a rationally understandable improvement. Sure. Here you go: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/simultaneous.gif
Lightning strikes two poles simultaneously and is seen by the moving and stationary observers to be simultaneous. The motion is irrelevant, the position is of importance. Einstein was hypnotising you by the power of suggestion. The rascal performed no service to human understanding of physics. Should you ever overcome your blind faith and belief in the honesty of the charlatan and realize he was performing his chicanery on the world you'll preach another and different gospel, the gospel according to St. Isaac.
> If this is > lacking, any counterintuitive theory will replace any rational [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > mystification is never an intrinsic property of the relationship > between reality and mind as such. I'm neither mystified nor hypnotised by Einstein's sleight-of-pen. Simultaneous means "at the same time" and has nothing whatever to do with the speed of signals or subjectivity of the mind. Part of your difficulty is the sudden realisation that you've been duped. Nobody wants to be thought of as a fool, yet fool you have been. Either continue to be a fool or admit it and correct yourself.
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 13:45 GMT > > The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic > > feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > and stationary observers to be simultaneous. The motion is irrelevant, > the position is of importance. hat's right relative motion and direction of relative motion has no effect on the simultaneity of the strikes. That's why the speed of light is isotropic in both frames.
Ken Seto
> Einstein was hypnotising you by the power of suggestion. The rascal > performed no service to human understanding of physics. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Androcles - 08 Nov 2008 06:24 GMT > The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic > feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > in the other train can equally suppose that you are moving, > no matter which of you is not moving relative to the station. Try looking down from a plane (you'll need a window seat). From 30,000 feet you can quite easily see the fields passing beneath you. What makes this, the experiment you've just mentioned, and the Dover ferry passing the Calais ferry in the harbour intuitive or counterintuitive is... parallax. When a foreground object passes through your field of view rapidly whilst a background object appears not to to pass as rapidly, then (intuitively), it is you that is moving. The train in the station has foreground but no background (another train obscure the background), the airplane seat has background but no foreground. Either way the result is that the world moves. As the train moves through the countryside there are both foreground and background objects, a tree on the horizon remains in view, the adjacent track and telegraph poles pass by rapidly. In the mid-distance the hedgerow passes by faster than the tree on the horizon but slower than the telegrpah poles. The intuitive conclusion is: you are moving. Without both foreground and background objects in the same field of view you simply cannot tell.
> However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem > posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the mind in any improved philosophical understanding that > can replace that which already exists? YES!
> Unlike with the former > example, in this case I would say not. You've been hypnotised by the power of suggestion and are now attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it) to reinforce your own beliefs.
> Instead, the > counterintuitivity is proposed, with the philosophical > implications being simply left unanswered. I've answered it many times.
> I say that this is unsatisfactory, and is of no service to > physics, or to the human understanding in general. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > philosophical understanding, that exists, with something > that is a rationally understandable improvement. Sure. Here you go: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/simultaneous.gif
Lightning strikes two poles simultaneously and is seen by the moving and stationary observers to be simultaneous. The motion is irrelevant, the position is of importance. Einstein was hypnotising you by the power of suggestion. The rascal performed no service to human understanding of physics. Should you ever overcome your blind faith and belief in the honesty of the charlatan and realize he was performing his chicanery on the world you'll preach another and different gospel, the gospel according to St. Isaac.
> If this is > lacking, any counterintuitive theory will replace any rational [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > mystification is never an intrinsic property of the relationship > between reality and mind as such. I'm neither mystified nor hypnotised by Einstein's sleight-of-pen. Simultaneous means "at the same time" and has nothing whatever to do with the speed of signals or subjectivity of the mind. Part of your difficulty is the sudden realisation that you've been duped. Nobody wants to be thought of as a fool, yet fool you have been. Either continue to be a fool or admit it and correct yourself.
Alen - 08 Nov 2008 12:34 GMT [...]
> > However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem > > posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it) > to reinforce your own beliefs. [...]
I can't accept that accusation. I believe that what I said appeals to the reasoning capacity in others, and nothing else.
Alen
Androcles - 08 Nov 2008 15:35 GMT On Nov 8, 5:24 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...@Hogwarts.physics> wrote:
> "Alen" <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message > > news:53917523-6fa1-4c96-b765-e3be80ce5c2a@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com... [...]
> > However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem > > posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it) > to reinforce your own beliefs. [...]
I can't accept that accusation. I believe that what I said appeals to the reasoning capacity in others, and nothing else. ======================================= And so you snip the evidence I proffered and call that "reason", your excuse being that you feel I was making an accusation? You are definitely hypnotised or indoctrinated, whatever name it goes by.
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 06:46 GMT > The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic > feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Alen But you see, there are these little facts that are demonstrated in experiments. Indeed, in the view of many people, the whole difference between physics and mathematics is that physics is constrained by observation of nature, while mathematicians can freelhy invent any hypotheses they like.
I'm sure that Einstein and others at the beginning of the twentieth century did not welcome and relish the thought that time might be frame dependent. They too, no doubt, felt uprooted in their intuitions about space and time. This change in thinking was not chosen as an option; it was forced on us by facts.
If you want to predict nature, you must find and consent to natures laws. And if nature does not provide us humans with the everyday experience of speeds of the order of light speed, then our intuitions will not develop to let us comprehend nature accurately and intuitively.
For us, we must adapt our intuitions to new facts which may be discovered in unfamiliar reaches of nature. It may not be easy, and mystification may occur during the process. But an allegiance to rationality, not home-grown intuition, brings us eventually to new intuitions that serve us better if our business takes us to unfamiliar regimes of experience.
Uncle Ben
Alen - 08 Nov 2008 12:40 GMT [...]
> > Therefore, I believe that, to be valid, any counterintuitivity > > proposed, for example, by a mathematical equation, should [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > intuitions about space and time. This change in thinking was not > chosen as an option; it was forced on us by facts. But was it? What you say is true only if there is no better theory than the one they came up with to explain the facts. But perhaps there is!
> If you want to predict nature, you must find and consent to natures > laws. And if nature does not provide us humans with the everyday [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Uncle Ben New intuitions, yes, and more rational ones than the former. I agee. But not new mystifications to replace old intuitions, which reduce, rather than increase, rationality.
Alen
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 18:08 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There are hundreds of thousands of physicists in the world, including engineers that work as physicists. I doubt that you could find 1% of them that do not fully subscribe to Special Relativity within its domain of applicability. It has been settled for a long time.
This newsgroup, on the other hand, is populated in the majority by what we call cranks -- people who believe themselves to be the only intelligent life forms on earth and who regard anything that they don't understand as "obviously false." Every physics department in the world receives monthly letters from these people showing how SR is "obviously false." Most departments simply discard these letters.
Explaining to them what their errors are is like talking to a brick. So we don't even try anymore.
Take your buddy, Androcles, for example. His signature comment claims that Einstein violated his own Second Postulate by stating that the speed of light one way is c+v and the other way c-v. He points to Einstein's original relativity paper called "on the electrodynamics of moving bodies." Androcles can indeed find the expressions "c+v" and "c-v" in that paper under the discussion of the Doppler Effect.
But what Einstein meant by "c+v" was not the speed of light but the "closure rate" of light moving at c and an object moving at v. It is the number that you divide into the distance between the two things to get the time remaining until closure.
No matter how often this is pointed out to Androcles, he persists in claiming that Einstein was inconsistent. So we have to write him off as an ineducable crank.
SR explains many weird and wonderful phenomena in physics. And no one has come up with a better theory than SR in the almost 100 years that it has been in existence. It is time for the cranks to find other windmills against which to tilt.
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 20:19 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Since you sound like a sincere seeker after the truth, I will answer you if you describe what you see as a mystificaion that goes all the way to irrationality. I'd like to know what has you upset.
Uncle Ben
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 03:59 GMT [...]
> > > For us, we must adapt our intuitions to new facts which may be > > > discovered in unfamiliar reaches of nature. It may not be easy, and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Uncle Ben I will give you just one example in SR, from a philosophical viewpoint only. Let A and B be stationary, and let B accelerate into a new inertial frame relative to A. After a time, A will be at time T, and B will be at time T', as viewed by A. If this means that there is no common universal time for A and B, can we say they both continue to exist? What does this mean? To co-exist means to exist together 'now'. Therefore, to say that they co-exist, but not at any time common to them both, is really to say that they 'now' co-exist 'not-now', which is philosophical nonsense.
No SR scientist, to my knowledge, has ever given an answer to this, or even shown any interest in it.
Alen
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 12:31 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I think your prbblem can be solved by expressing it somewhat differently. A and B are material objects. From a state in which both are unaccelerated and at rest with respect to an inertial frame of reference S, B undergoes a period of acceleration, after which B is unaccelerated. In the following, I use variables xS and tS, which are place and time w.r.t. S, and similarly variables xS' and tS' as place and time w.r.t. a different frame of reference S'.
We can describe the process from any inertial frame of reference we like. Let's choose frame S. The equation of motion of A is trivial: xS = 0 for all tS. For B, if we say that the acceleration starts as tS=0 and stops at tS=15 seconds, B will be travelling at some speed v, and its equation of motion is xS = v*tS + C, where C is a constant distance determined by the acceleration. and tS > 15 seconds.
If you ask where A and B will be at any time tS > 15, these equations of motion will give you the answers. No mystery.
If you would like to describe this process with respect to a different frame of reference S', one, say, in which B is again unaccelerated and now at rest at the origin, you simply change variables through a Lorentz transformation. You will get new variables xS' and tS' and have your answer.
If you want to know where A and B are at any time after the time tS' = however many seconds corresponds to tS=15, A will be at xS' - v tS' + D, another constant, and B will be at the origin of S'.
Is there still a problem?
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 13:11 GMT > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Typo: Instead of
> If you want to know where A and B are at any time after the time tS' = > however many seconds corresponds to tS=15, A will be at xS' - v tS' + > D, another constant, and B will be at the origin of S'. it should be
> If you want to know where A and B are at any time after the time tS' = > however many seconds corresponds to tS=15, A will be at xS' = - v tS' + > D, another constant, and B will be at the origin of S'. I never said that I am a careful typist.
Uncle Ben
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 13:24 GMT > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Uncle Ben You are giving B, for example, a location in A's frame, i.e. v*tS + C. Are you saying that B is at some spacetime event IN A's frame, rather than merely one that is observed FROM A's frame? If so, B's clock will not identify B as being at that spacetime event. So, are you saying that B occupies more than one spacetime event at once? I don't think that is the picture proposed by the Minkowski spacetime explanation, is it?!
If an observer can be at only one spacetime event at once, then co-existence requires, philosophically, a universal common time shared by all observers.
Alen
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 13:37 GMT > > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Alen Correction! On second thoughts, even an observer occupying two spacetime events at once is a paradoxical concept, in that it raises the problem as to the creation of a 'co-existence' of spacetime events that do not share a common time.
Alen
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 15:21 GMT > > > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > - Show quoted text - This may be at the heart of your problem.
A frame of reference is a coordinate system. A and B are objects. Even if A is at rest in a frame S, both A and B are objects that have coordinates w.r.t. S. It makes no sense to say that S is A's frame, except as a confusing figure of speech.
Let A be a hamburger at the north pole. Let B be a hockey puck also at the north pole a few inches away. If S is then a frame of reference with origin at the north pole and x axis tangent to the 0 deg meridian, then both objects are at rest w.r.t. S.
Let B be smacked by a freezing goalie at t = 0. Then to a good approximation, B has an equation of motion w.r.t. S, x = vt, t>0. A has equation of motion x = 0 for t>0.
These coordinates are what I called xS and tS indicating that they are measured w.r.t. the S frame of reference.
You can imagine another frame of reference if you like and substitute the variables to get a different description of the same scenario. Then we would have to use a notation for x and t w.r.t. that frame of reference. But we don't have to do that. We can describe B's motion w.r.t. S just as wall.
The only event mentioned explicitly is the one at x=0, t=0 when the puck got smacked. You can imagine an infinity of events after that, each of which has coordinates in S -- and coordinates in any other frame of reference you define. But I don't see the point in that.
Does this help?
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 15:34 GMT > > > > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Footnote to the previous post:
I see from your posts that you have taken all the talk about observers and their clocks literally, as discussed in elementary texts. The authors use this way of discussion to try and personalize it, just as Einstein did. But after one arrives at the Lorentz transformation and is ready to apply the theory, all that becomes confusing rather than hel;pful.
We don't need to repeat the observer story and their confusing thought processes anymore. Replace them with automated measuring devices. Once you have a frame of reference, all you need to discuss are events and their coordinates.
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 15:49 GMT > > > > > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Footnote 2:
Remember that a frame of reference is, in principle, an entire network of observers who have synchronized their clocks while at rest. If anything happens in their world, there will be an imaginary observer at that point in space who will record his time for that event. The world is filled with this infinity of observers with synchronized clocks.
If you consider another different frame of reference, then you imagine that there is another infinite set of observers, filling the same space as the first except that they are moving together as one, all with their own clocks synchronized with each other.
You can see that this picture is unneccesarily complicated. It has become a fairy tale for beginners.
Uncle Ben
Alen - 10 Nov 2008 00:45 GMT [...]
> Footnote 2: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Uncle Ben I don't think we are making any progress with this. You are convinced that it is merely a matter of my own difficulty, in which I need to be helped to an answer which certainly exists. But, in fact, there is no satisfactory answer to the philosophical problem, other than by an alternative to the Minkowski spacetime interpretation of SR.
Alen
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 01:15 GMT > [...] > > Footnote 2: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Do you not accept that a frame of reference is a coordinate system in which any number of events can be given coordinates of space and time?
You certainly accept that the Cartesian plane with axes x and y can display any number of points and give them x and y coordinates. Why not an x-t plane that can show any number of events and give them x and t coordinates. There does not have to be a different plane for each point. Similarly there does not have to be a different reference frame for each event.
I am puzzled by your insistence on making a reference frame belong to a single event, as in "A's frame" and "B's frame."
If you do not wish to continue, I wish you well.
Uncle Ben
Sue... - 10 Nov 2008 01:33 GMT > > [...] > > > Footnote 2: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Do you not accept that a frame of reference is a coordinate system in > which any number of events can be given coordinates of space and time? Such a co-ordinate system is in conflict with the inverse square law and the finite speed of light.
See: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node113.html
Sue...
> You certainly accept that the Cartesian plane with axes x and y can > display any number of points and give them x and y coordinates. Why [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Uncle Ben Alen - 10 Nov 2008 13:10 GMT > > [...] > > > Footnote 2: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Uncle Ben Very well, I will answer this. Our practical experience of a t coordinate is totally different to any x or y coordinate. In space we can move back and forth along x and y axes, as we please, and can arbitrarily access any part of an object, of finite size, in space, that occupies a whole set of coordinates describing its length or area, etc. With time the case is completely different. We cannot arbitrarily access time coordinate values in past, present, and future, as we can access spatial coordinate values. In any reference frame, we can access only one time coordinate value, and are compelled to scan coordinate values in time, one after the other, and cannot move back and forth in time as we please. A reality at a time coordinate value in the past is something that has become permanently inaccessible to us. If something was destroyed, then we cannot go back in time to retrieve it, as we might go from one place to another in space to retrieve an object, no matter what kind of time coordinate value we might give it. It no longer exists.
Alen
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 13:54 GMT > > > [...] > > > > Footnote 2: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I agree with all of this, but t is not relevant. A frame of reference consists in imagination as a vast army of "observers" -- one for every spatial point in the universe. Each of these observer (in imagination) has a clock, and it is imagined that all of these clocks have been synchornized with respect to a central clock, say, at the origin.
Then whenever an event occurs at point x=17, the observer at that point notes the time and reports his own spatial coordinate, 17, and the time of the event, t=256 seconds. He can then send a report of his observation back to the origin by carrier pigeon.
So nobody has to peer into the past. All observations are made on the spot and on the moment and relayed to anybody else who needs it.
As I said before, this is a fairy tale for beginners, and all can be replaced by describing events in terms of the spatial and temporal coordinates. So when we are discussing a hypothetical event, it is sufficient to dismiss all of the infinity of observers and just cite the coordinates of the event.
When I described the scenario you proposed for object B, I gave x as a function of t. You can say that this described an infinity of events arrayed, if you like, in order of t and giving x for each.
The trouble with saying that an object is "in" a frame of reference is that the language suggests something in a box which cannot be in another box. It is much clearer to say that events anywhere in the universe have coordinates measured (in imagination, if necessary) WITH RESPECT TO a frame of reference and having different coordinates WITH RESPECT TO any other frame of reference you may wish to define.
So when you are comparing objects A and B, you can do so in a frame of reference in which A is at rest, or in a frame of reference in which B comes to rest after acceleration. The coordinates in one frame are related to the coordinates in the other frame by the Lorentz Transformation.
So in these terms, you will see, I hope, that there is never any need for an observer to be at two events at the same time. He has jillions of other observers already deployed who will report events to him.
Hence no philosophical problem.
I applaud your decision to continue the discussion. SR has been settled for more than 100 years. It is not liable to be caught in contradictions at this late stage. There have been intelligent people dealing with it besides ourselves.
Uncle Ben
Alen - 11 Nov 2008 03:18 GMT [...]
> > Very well, I will answer this. Our practical experience of > > a t coordinate is totally different to any x or y coordinate. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Uncle Ben I know you are trying very hard to make Minkowski spacetime display no philosophical problem. As you can see from my remarks, I think no such attempts can ever be seen to really work on closer examination.
Minkowski spacetime has a lot invested in it over the last 100 years. It is a metric theory. It allows the SR equations to be simple geometrical transformations, which can be associated with Lorentz invariance in coordinate transformations in a whole variety of contexts. It can also be inserted, as a geometric theory, into the geometric theory of GR, and thus emerge as the local version of GR geometry.
Yet, in spite of all this, I say that it will eventually turn out to have been one of the greatest errors in the history of science. SR will turn out to be due to the working of light, rather than geometry, and the true explanation will also automatically provide an explanation of the working of other peculiarities of light, like nonlocality and quantum erasure, and both these, and SR, will then have a single explanation.
Alen
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 03:36 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, I don't hear any more from you about counterintuivity -- no observers in two places at once, no B's disappearing -- so I guess we've made a little progress. Let's leave it at that.
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 03:45 GMT > [...] > > Footnote 2: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There is no philosophical problem. You just don't understand what a frame of reference is. I did my best for you, but c'est la vie.
Uncle Ben
harry - 10 Nov 2008 07:49 GMT On Nov 10, 2:49 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
: in fact, there : is no satisfactory answer to the philosophical : problem, other than by an alternative to the : Minkowski spacetime interpretation of SR. As you know since they were discussed in this thread, there are at least two alternatives to the eternalism interpretation (the Lorentz interpretation and the Berkeley interpretation). For me Lorentz's interpretation is the most intuitive while you appear to find Berkely's interpretation more intuitive. None of the three can be decided by experiments, and it's even problematic to explain them since people understand different things with the same words - that's the problem with philosophy.
Cheers, Harald
Jerry - 13 Nov 2008 19:25 GMT > I see from your posts that you have taken all the talk about observers > and their clocks literally, as discussed in elementary texts. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Once you have a frame of reference, all you need to discuss are events > and their coordinates. This is a very important point, Alen.
What an observer SEES can be very different from what one he MEASURES as happening in a frame of reference, due to differential light propagation delays between when a signal from one event reaches the observer, versus when another event reaches the observer. A relativistically foreshortened object may not LOOK foreshortened at all, but may look simply tilted. Crackpots regularly have a field day getting the effects of plain ordinary Doppler shift mixed up with the effects of time dilation.
In my arguments with Ken Seto, I've become aware that he is very confused about the whole what-an-observer-SEES-versus-what-is- measured-within-a-frame-of-reference issue, and I've repeatedly challenged him on the basis of what-an-observer-SEES because of his inability to understand basic measurement principles.
For example, these applets that I wrote for Ken attempt to show what the observers SEE. Note how complicated they are compared with what they would be if Ken understood the concept of a reference frame (as Ben wrote elsewhere, "an entire network of observers who have synchronized their clocks while at rest"). http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/simultaneity/Simultaneous.htm
Jerry
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 14:57 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > that they 'now' co-exist 'not-now', which is > philosophical nonsense. The existence of absolute time will resolve this as follow: 1. While they are together 1A clock second contains the same amount of absolute time as 1 B clock second. 2. After B accelerated away 1 B clock second contains a larger amount of absolute time than 1 A clock second....that is the cause of clock B is running slower than clock A. Mathematically: 1 B clock second=gamma(1 A clock second). Sr calls this as time dilation rather than that a clock second is no longer representing the same amount of absolute time in the A and B frame. 3. In term of absolute time: 1 B clock second represents the same amount of absolute time as gamma(1 A clock second). Therefore both A and B are still in the same NOW. 4. The existence of absolute time also explains why all observer measure the speed of light to be a constant math ratio as follows: Light path length of ruler (299,792,458 m long physically)/the absolute time content for a clock second co-moving with the ruler.
The paper in the following link explains this new concept in details: http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2008IRT.DTG.pdf Also please visit my website for more papers on my theory: http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm
Ken Seto
> No SR scientist, to my knowledge, has ever > given an answer to this, or even shown any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Alen - 11 Nov 2008 02:55 GMT [...]
> > I will give you just one example in SR, from a > > philosophical viewpoint only. Let A and B be [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Ken Seto I agree with you that all observers share a common absolute time. I don't think of time dilation in terms of different quantities of absolute time for different clocks. Instead, I think of time dilation as being a historical view of a moving frame caused by a peculiarity in the nature of light, in terms of the working of the light postulate. So we partly agree and partly disagree. But that's ok. All possibilities should be considered.
Alen
Androcles - 11 Nov 2008 03:29 GMT On Nov 11, 1:57 am, kenseto <kens...@erinet.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 10:59 pm, Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote: [...]
> > I will give you just one example in SR, from a > > philosophical viewpoint only. Let A and B be [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Ken Seto I agree with you that all observers share a common absolute time. I don't think of time dilation in terms of different quantities of absolute time for different clocks. Instead, I think of time dilation as being a historical view of a moving frame caused by a peculiarity in the nature of light, in terms of the working of the light postulate. So we partly agree and partly disagree. But that's ok. All possibilities should be considered.
Alen
========================================= You've been hypnotised. The time postulate is:
"the ``time'' required by light to travel from A to B equals the ``time'' it requires to travel from B to A".
The word ``time'' in quotation marks isn't time, it is something Einstein wants to adjust.
What kind of lunacy prompted Einstein to say the speed of light from A to B is c-v, the speed of light from B to A is c+v, the "time" each way is the same?
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WEAM.htm
Watch out or Seto will hypnotise you into believing in aether or some such peculiarity in the nature of light to agree with Einstein's light postulate. But that's ok. You've been hypnotised before.
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 03:44 GMT (snip)
> What kind of lunacy prompted Einstein to say > the speed of light from A to B is c-v, > the speed of light from B to A is c+v, > the "time" each way is the same? (snip)
See, everybody, our lion's friend is still misrepresenting Einstein. He just won't learn.
The speed of light from A to B is still c, but its target is moving away at v, so the path is longer. Similarly in the other direction, light is still moving at speed c but the target is moving closer at v, so that path is shorter. Read Einstein and see.
Uncle Ben
kenseto - 11 Nov 2008 14:01 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > absolute time. I don't think of time dilation in terms > of different quantities of absolute time for different clocks. I said that a clock second contains a different amount of absolute time (duration)in different frames. This is different than your interpretation above. Experimentally: 1 second of the stay at home clock is equal to 1/gamma second for the traveling clock in terms of absolute time. What this mean is that the current definition for time needs to be changed to reflect that a clock second does not represent the same amount of TIME (DURATION). What I said is confirmed by the GPS clock. The GPS clock second is adjusted to have 4.15 more periods of the Cs radiation than the ground clock second. This is to accommodate the fact that the ground clock second contains a larger amount of absolute time than the GPS second.
Ken Seto
> Instead, I think of time dilation as being a historical > view of a moving frame caused by a peculiarity in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Nov 2008 06:48 GMT Alen <alen1@westserv.net.au> wrote in message 53917523-6fa1-4c96-b765-e3be80ce5c2a@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com
> The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic > feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the > prompting of some mathematical formula, without the > application of any other principle that might control and > validate its use. Usually such "some mathematical formula" does not merely fall out the sky with the intention to cause a panic. First study this http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html , and then ask yourself whether "the so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic feature in modern physics", or whether it is a severely problematic feature in the severely untrained and ignorant brain of Joe the Plumber.
Dirk Vdm
Pentcho Valev - 08 Nov 2008 07:30 GMT On Nov 8, 8:48 am, "Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote in sci.physics.relativity:
> Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Bravo Moortel! Good zombie good sycophant! Unfortunately Master Tom Roberts's teaching is silly:
http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html Master Tom Roberts: "The Michelson-Morley experiment (MMX) was intended to measure the velocity of the Earth relative to the "lumeniferous 洨er" which was at the time presumed to carry electromagnetic phenomena. The failure of it and the other early experiments to actually observe the Earth's motion through the 洨er became significant in promoting the acceptance of Einstein's theory of Special Relativity, as it was appreciated from early on that Einstein's approach (via symmetry) was more elegant and parsimonious of assumptions than were other approaches (e.g. those of Maxwell, Hertz, Stokes, Fresnel, Lorentz, Ritz, and Abraham)."
Now compare Master Tom Roberts' teaching with Master John Norton's teaching (Master John Norton's teaching is by no means silly):
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001743/02/Norton.pdf Master John Norton: "Einstein regarded the Michelson-Morley experiment as evidence for the principle of relativity, whereas later writers almost universally use it as support for the light postulate of special relativity......THE MICHELSON-MORLEY EXPERIMENT IS FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH AN EMISSION THEORY OF LIGHT THAT CONTRADICTS THE LIGHT POSTULATE."
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 08:48 GMT > On Nov 8, 8:48 am, "Dirk Van de moortel" > <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote in sci.physics.relativity: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - Show quoted text - But then there are these little properties of light such as interference, diffraction, wavelength, and frequency which are NOT compatible with a bullet theory of light.
And there is this little Nobel-prize-winning Quantum Electrodynamics, which is compatible with x-rays, gamma rays, radio waves, microwaves, photoelectric effect, and in fact, with all of the known properties of light and light-like phenomena and special relativity and without an ether.
Uncle Ben
Pentcho Valev - 08 Nov 2008 09:19 GMT > >http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001743/02/Norton.pdf > > Master John Norton: "Einstein regarded the Michelson-Morley experiment [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > interference, diffraction, wavelength, and frequency which are NOT > compatible with a bullet theory of light. Some of the properties of light seem to obey the discontinuous "bullet" model of light, others the continuous "field" model. According to Einstein, it is "entirely possible" that the property defined as "dependence/independence of the speed of light on the speed of the light source", on which Einstein's theory is based, obeys the discontinuous "bullet" model, but your Masters do not take this seriously:
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=317&I temid=81&lecture_id=3576 John Stachel: "Einstein discussed the other side of the particle-field dualism - get rid of fields and just have particles." Albert Einstein: "I consider it entirely possible that physics cannot be based upon the field concept, that is on continuous structures. Then nothing will remain of my whole castle in the air, including the theory of gravitation, but also nothing of the rest of contemporary physics." John Stachel's comment: "If I go down, everything goes down, ha ha, hm, ha ha ha."
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Nov 2008 10:57 GMT Uncle Ben <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message 60638343-efbe-4355-8ffe-aab986e6f791@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com
>> On Nov 8, 8:48 am, "Dirk Van de moortel" >> <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote in sci.physics.relativity: [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > light and light-like phenomena and special relativity and without an > ether. And then there is also this little list of differences which are not compatible with that which Poncho Volvo can wrap his tiny little mind around: - rates vs. values, - a personal humorous musing vs. a common dogma, - children's books vs. inspired essays, - physicists vs. philosophers, - coordinate time vs. proper time, - invariance vs. constancy, - special relativity vs. general relativity, - teachers vs. hypnotists, - laymen vs. zombies, - a person being right vs. a theory being right, - students vs. imbeciles, - bad science vs. bad engineering, - bad engineering vs. bad cost management, - honing the foundations of a theory vs. fighting it, - physics vs. linguistics, - an article written in 1905 vs. a theory created in 1915, - understanding a book vs. turning its pages, - speed vs. relative (aka closing) speed, - doing algebra vs. randomly writing down symbols, - real life vs. a Usenet hobby group, - receiving a detailed reply vs. being ignored, - everyday concepts vs. scientific concepts in physics, - the three things that smell like fish, - inertial vs. non-inertial, - speed vs. velocity, - an article vs. a book, - relativity vs. disguised ether addiction, - algebra vs. analytic geometry, - kneeling down vs. bending over, - local vs. global, - a sycophant in English vs. in French, - a relation vs. an equation, - massive vs. massless particles, - a Mexican poncho vs. a Sears poncho, - implication vs. equivalence, - group velocity vs. phase velocity, - science vs. religion
Dirk Vdm
Hayek - 08 Nov 2008 13:22 GMT > Uncle Ben <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message > 60638343-efbe-4355-8ffe-aab986e6f791@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > are not compatible with that which Poncho Volvo can wrap his > tiny little mind around: Let me rate you - call it an apple review, (not pear)
> - rates vs. values, Is time a rate or a value ?
> - a personal humorous musing vs. a common dogma, Your escape route if your common dogma is unmasked ?
> - children's books vs. inspired essays, On the next paradigm shift the latter could turn into the former.
> - physicists vs. philosophers, Philosophers point out the carelessness of the physicists. They used to be one and the same, but like in the movie "The dark crystal", they got split up. My sympathy and allegiance used to be with the physicists, but after seeing them dabble in their own self-rightneousness and dogma, I'd rather be a philospher.
> - coordinate time vs. proper time, You do not understand any of them.
> - invariance vs. constancy,
> - special relativity vs. general relativity, Both unaware that it is aal about inertia.
> - teachers vs. hypnotists, Those who can, do, those who can't teach. Those who can't teach, are called D*rks.
> - laymen vs. zombies, A zombie that does mathematica ?
> - a person being right vs. a theory being right, You are a leftist, as every Belgian is, and theories are replaced at the next paradigm. FTL is coming.
> - students vs. imbeciles, You once were both, now just the latter.
> - bad science vs. bad engineering, I bet you excell at both.
> - bad engineering vs. bad cost management, Same as above, Belgium has the highest telecom costs of the world.
> - honing the foundations of a theory vs. fighting it, Both could be effective.
> - physics vs. linguistics, A deaf-mute or D*rk on what is time. The deaf-mute can explain it in sign language.
> - an article written in 1905 vs. a theory created in 1915, And both using an Aether.
> - understanding a book vs. turning its pages, No difference for you, you never opened "Gravitation".
> - speed vs. relative (aka closing) speed, Did you just mean : absolute vs relative speed ?
> - doing algebra vs. randomly writing down symbols, Infinite number of monkeys doing String Theory and ending up with 10^100 possibilities of the TOE ?
> - real life vs. a Usenet hobby group, Or Usenet to satisfy your inferiority complex and your sociopathic tendencies ?
> - receiving a detailed reply vs. being ignored, Where are the relativity cops when you need them ?
> - everyday concepts vs. scientific concepts in physics, Understanding=mechanical model--Lord Kelvin.
> - the three things that smell like fish, So, that's were you live !
> - inertial vs. non-inertial, To Mach, or not to Mach.
> - speed vs. velocity, Depends on what angle you look at it.
> - an article vs. a book, A long article or a short book, nether wiil make you understand Mach's Principle.
> - relativity vs. disguised ether addiction, So, that's what caused your brain damage. And now relativity is your way of staying clean. The institute director said, pursue any goal in life, but stay clear of the Ether.
> - algebra vs. analytic geometry, You can't have one without the other.
> - kneeling down vs. bending over, Oral or Anal ?
> - local vs. global, As long as the gamma stays the same, no problemo.
> - a sycophant in English vs. in French, In french un sycophante. Kut met Peer review.
> - a relation vs. an equation, Really D*rk ? A love affair with your horse ?
> - massive vs. massless particles, I heared of really small testicles, but massless ?
> - a Mexican poncho vs. a Sears poncho, A real Mexican Poncho, made in China, sold at Sears.
> - implication vs. equivalence, Your stupidity ?
> - group velocity vs. phase velocity, Boring. We want real FTL, if only to shut up relativists.
> - science vs. religion For you : completely equivalent. As long as it is in books and papers. By respected priests only of course.
Uwe Hayek. Does not "believe" in HIV, like you do.
Alen - 08 Nov 2008 12:51 GMT On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Oh, it may well be so for Joe as well!
But do try to give me credit for being able to distinguish between the following:
1) Experimental facts. 2) Mathematical equations. 3) Theoretical concepts and postulates.
I say that 1 and 2 are not, in themselves, intuitive or counterintuitive, but only the 3s that are connected with them, and from which they can arise, and to which they can lead. The point is that there can be more than one 3 for any example of 1 and 2 that go together. If 3 is counterintuitive to the point of irrationality, then an attempt should be made to find a more rational 3, independently of any attempt to alter 1 or 2. That is my argument. Thus, I make no argument for setting up intuition, or philosophical considerations, against 1 and 2, or 1 especially. The argument involves 3 only.
Alen
Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Nov 2008 14:03 GMT Alen <alen1@westserv.net.au> wrote in message 1767ec75-2672-4eff-8c74-9153b929c9df@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com
> On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" > <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > 2) Mathematical equations. > 3) Theoretical concepts and postulates. Ah, but you lost that credit a long time ago.
Dirk Vdm
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 03:07 GMT On Nov 9, 1:03 am, "Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message > > 1767ec75-2672-4eff-8c74-9153b929c...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com [...]
> >> Usually such "some mathematical formula" does not merely fall > >> out the sky with the intention to cause a panic. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Very well! Don't try to give me any credit, then!
But I know what I am talking about, nonetheless.
Alen
Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com - 08 Nov 2008 14:11 GMT > On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > application of any other principle that might control and > > > validate its use. I don't think we even need a formula. One word in particular exposes the (counter)intuitive paradigm: ISOTROPIC Is space the same in every direction? Or is space unique in every direction? Are these two direct inverts? They cannot both be true. This is a logical opening to structured spacetime, which will simplify Maxwell's equations by yielding them via the structure of spacetime. Relativity theory has not gone far enough. According to Einstein: "However, the most careful observations have never revealed such anisotropic properties in terrestrial physical space, i.e. a physical non-equivalence of different directions. This is a very powerful argument in favour of the principle of relativity." - http://www.bartleby.com/173/5.html
Even while these words are half accurate they are half conflicted. Structured spacetime will be acceptable so long as relative reference frames are possible. This means that it is alright to structure space itself as a bidirectional line crossed with a rotational plane. This then allows for the possibility of electron spin as an inherent property of the electron due to spacetime itself.
String and brane theorists should be playing here, but they do not. They are afraid to modify existing theory. Instead they crouch down beneath it at some subparticle level. They should be modeling the electron more directly. I shouldn't make such a blanket statement since I can't read all, but this is my impression.
- Tim
> > Usually such "some mathematical formula" does not merely fall > > out the sky with the intention to cause a panic. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Alen kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 14:19 GMT On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" <tttppp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > argument in favour of the principle of relativity." > -http://www.bartleby.com/173/5.html But the bogus SR concept of Relativity of Simultaneity (RoS)is born from the "a physical of non-equivalence of different directions." RoS says that the speed of light in the train in Einstein's train gedanken is anisotropic (c+v) and (c-v). The paper in the following link describes a new theory of relative called Improved Relativity Theory (IRT). IRT includes SRT as a subset. However, the equations of IRT have an unlimited dommain of applicability. Therefore they are valid for use to replace GRT in cosmology applications. http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2008IRT.DTG.pdf Also visit my website for more papers on my theory: http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm
Ken Seto
> Even while these words are half accurate they are half conflicted. > Structured spacetime will be acceptable so long as relative reference [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 15:29 GMT > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Kenseto, you repeat the misinformation that Androcles keeps repeating regarding what Einstein said in his original discussion of the doppler effect. Einstein did not say that c+v and c-v are speeds of light.
What he said was that if light is travelling toward a moving object moving toward the approaching light, the time it takes them to come together is the distance between them divided by the rate of closure: the speed of light plus the speed of the object. The speed of light is still c and the speed of the object is v. Their closure rate is c +v; that is NOT the speed of light.
I hope that this is the first time anyone has told you this. If not, then you must ineducable and qualify for the degree of Crank First Class along with Androcles, and we can put you in our killfiles.
Uncle Ben
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 18:44 GMT > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > regarding what Einstein said in his original discussion of the doppler > effect. Einstein did not say that c+v and c-v are speeds of light. No....it is not the Doppler effect I was talking about. In Einsteins train gedanken where he derive the bogus concept of Relativity of Simultaneity (RoS). He said that the light front from the front is arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear is arrivng at M' with a speed of c-v. That means that two different transit times for light to traverse the same length. That means that the speed of light in the M' frame is not isotropic. That means that the bogus concept of RoS contradicts the SR postulates.
Ken Seto
> What he said was that if light is travelling toward a moving object > moving toward the approaching light, the time it takes them to come [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 19:42 GMT > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 132 lines] > > - Show quoted text - In the train gedanken experiment, Einstein determines the length of the train WITH RESPECT TO THE STATION.
You said
> In Einsteins > train gedanken where he derive the bogus concept of Relativity of > Simultaneity (RoS). He said that the light front from the front is > arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear > is arriving at M' with a speed of c-v. That means that two different > transit times for light to traverse the same length. This is not true relative to the station. From the back of the train to the front, the light has to travel farther than the length of the train, because the front of the train is moving away from it. Similarly it has to travel in return less than the length of the train, because back of the train is moving towards it.
The light is travelling at c, but the distances are not the same relative to the station.
That's not so difficult, is it?
Uncle Ben
"the light front from the front is
> arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear > is arriving at M' with a speed of c-v," since what he means is that the rate of closure between two moving things is the sum of their speeds. The distance that the light travels each way is not the same with respect to the laboratory, since the rod is moving while the light is in transit.
And thus it is not true that "That means that two different transit times for light to traverse the same length," since with respect to the laboratory the lengths are not the same. With respect to the laboratory, the light has to travel farther from the back of the train to the front of the train -- farther than the length of the train -- because the train is moving.
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 20:01 GMT > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 132 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You said
> In Einsteins > train gedanken where he derive the bogus concept of Relativity of > Simultaneity (RoS). He said that the light front from the front is > arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear > is arriving at M' with a speed of c-v. That means that two different > transit times for light to traverse the same length. Einstein was comparing what is simultaneous with respect to the train with what is simultaneous with respect to the station. There is no problem with respect to the train.
This is not true relative to the station. From the back of the train to the front, the light has to travel farther than the length of the train, because while the light is travelling, the front of the train is moving away from it.
Similarly it has to travel in return less than the length of the train, because back of the train is moving towards it while the light is moving.
The light is travelling at c, but the distances are not the same relative to the station. This contradicts your last statement.
That's not so difficult, is it?
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 20:14 GMT > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > Ken Seto With respect, not so.
Einstein compares simultaeity w.r.t. the train with simultaneity w.r.t. the station to show that they are not the same.
W.r.t. the train it is easy. Light from the front of the train meets light from the back in the center. The pulses are simultaneous.
W.r.t. the station, however, light from the front arrives at the center first, because the center is moving towards the light at the speed of the train while the light is in transit.
Light from the rear arrives later than before, because the center is moving away from the light pulse as the light travels.
The Second Postulate is still in force. Your last sentence is wrong, because the distances are not the same when measured w.r.t. the station.
That's not difficult, is it?
Uncle Ben
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 21:53 GMT > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > Einstein compares simultaeity w.r.t. the train with simultaneity > w.r.t. the station to show that they are not the same. He didn't use the correct
> W.r.t. the train it is easy. Light from the front of the train meets > light from the back in the center. The pulses are simultaneous. This shows me that you don't understand his gedanken. In his gedanken he conclude that M' (the train observer) will see the strikes to be not simultaneous because he is mvoing wrt the light fronts.
> W.r.t. the station, however, light from the front arrives at the > center first, because the center is moving towards the light at the > speed of the train while the light is in transit. Again you don't understand his gedanken. The stipulated that M (the track observer) sees the strikes to be simultaneous. Also the center moves wrt the light fronts means anisotropy of the speed of light.
> Light from the rear arrives later than before, because the center is > moving away from the light pulse as the light travels. Again you are clearly clueless. Einstein specified that the train observer is mvoing wrt the light fronts.
> The Second Postulate is still in force. Your last sentence is wrong, > because the distances are not the same when measured w.r.t. the > station. No its not in force for the train observer because the track observer asserts that he (M') is moving wrt the light fronts.
> That's not difficult, is it? Apparently it is very difficult for you.:-(
Ken Seto
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 22:13 GMT > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 156 lines] > > - Show quoted text - OK, I got them backwards. I didn't review his statement of the problem. But you are a smart guy; can't you get a clue from what I wrote that the velocity of light is not shown to be anisotropic?
I could restate the whole thing correctly, but you can see that the point is that one way the distances are equal and the other way they are not. The difference in times is because of the difference in distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in distances is because of the motion of the train.
Uncle Ben
kenseto - 11 Nov 2008 00:46 GMT > > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > problem. But you are a smart guy; can't you get a clue from what I > wrote that the velocity of light is not shown to be anisotropic? It is anisotropic if you insist that the front light front takes less transit time than the rear light front to arrive at the train observer.
> I could restate the whole thing correctly, but you can see that the > point is that one way the distances are equal and the other way they > are not. According to the LT the distance for light to reach the track observer is L and the distance for light to reach the train observer is gamma*L. Therefore the transit time for the light fronts to reach M is L/c and the transit time for the light fronts to reach M' is gamma*L/ c. Therefore both M and M' will see the strikes to be simultaneous but at different times.
>The difference in times is because of the difference in > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in > distances is because of the motion of the train. This is a bogus assertion.
Ken Seto
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 04:03 GMT > > > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com" > [quoted text clipped - 185 lines] > > - Show quoted text - As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not, I'll state Einstein's version correctly this time.
You say that in Einstein's version, lightning strikes both ends of the train at the same time w.r.t. to the track, the light from the flashes arriving at an observer who was by the track at the center of the train when the lightning flashed -- arriving to him at the same time.
He asks what about the conductor on the train in the middle? Will he see the flashes at the same time?
No, he won't. Because while the lightning flashes are sending light towards the middle of the train, the train moves! So the distance the rear flash has to go forward is greater w.r.t. the track and the distrance the forward flash has to travel backward is shorter. So the flashes are not simultaneous w.r.t. the train.
The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have changed.
I think a fifth grader could understand this. But as Jeff Foxworthy observes on TV, not every adult is as smart as a fifth grader. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this is bogus.
Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 04:12 GMT > >The difference in times is because of the difference in > > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > problem. But you are a smart guy; can't you get a clue from what I > > wrote that the velocity of light is not shown to be anisotropic?
> It is anisotropic if you insist that the front light front takes less > transit time than the rear light front to arrive at the train > observer.
> > I could restate the whole thing correctly, but you can see that the > > point is that one way the distances are equal and the other way they > > are not.
> According to the LT the distance for light to reach the track observer > is L and the distance for light to reach the train observer is > gamma*L. Therefore the transit time for the light fronts to reach M is > L/c and the transit time for the light fronts to reach M' is gamma*L/ > c. Therefore both M and M' will see the strikes to be simultaneous but > at different times.
> >The difference in times is because of the difference in > > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in > > distances is because of the motion of the train.
> This is a bogus assertion.
> Ken Seto- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text - As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not, I'll state Einstein's version correctly this time.
You say that in Einstein's version, lightning strikes both ends of the train at the same time w.r.t. to the track, the light from the flashes arriving at an observer who was by the track at the center of the train when the lightning flashed -- arriving to him at the same time.
He asks what about the conductor on the train in the middle? Will he see the flashes at the same time?
No, he won't. Because while the lightning flashes are sending light towards the middle of the train, the train moves! So the distance the rear flash has to go forward is greater w.r.t. the track and the distrance the forward flash has to travel backward is shorter. So the flashes are not simultaneous w.r.t. the train.
The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have changed.
I think a fifth grader could understand this. But as Jeff Foxworthy observes on TV, not every adult is as smart as a fifth grader. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this is bogus.
Uncle Ben
kenseto - 11 Nov 2008 14:37 GMT > > >The difference in times is because of the difference in > > > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > train when the lightning flashed -- arriving to him at the same > time. There are only two possibilities how the lightning strikes to occur: 1. They happened simultaneously. 2. They happened not simultaneously. These possibilities is frame independent. Therefore if Einstein stipulated that the strikes occurred simulteously that means that they occurred simultaneous for both the track and the train observer. Since SR claims that the speed of light is isotropic in both M and M' frames and that both M and M' are at equal distance from the strikes when they occur simultaneously. Therefore M will see the strikes arrive at him simultaneously at time of L/c and M' will see the strikes to arrive at him simultaneously at time gamma*L/c.
> He asks what about the conductor on the train in the middle? Will he > see the flashes at the same time? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > distrance the forward flash has to travel backward is shorter. So the > flashes are not simultaneous w.r.t. the train. This bogus arguement violates the observed fact that the speed of light is isotropic in the train. The train observer cannot move wrt the light fronts in a way that will destroy the isotropy of the speed of light. What this mean is that the perceived closing velocities between the train observer and the light fronts is a false assertion. If the track observer wants to predict what the train observer will see he must use the LT. The LT calclations are as follows: The distance light need to travel to reach the train observer from both directions = gamma*L Therefore the time for the light fronts to arrive at M' simultaneously = gamma*L/c
I suggest that you read the paper "Improved Relativity Theory and Doppler Theory of Gravity (DTG)" in my website: http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm
Ken Seto
> The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have > changed. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Timothy Golden BandTechnology.com - 11 Nov 2008 15:27 GMT > > > >The difference in times is because of the difference in > > > > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - In terms of arguments on isotropic space and isotropic radiation if we accept the photon as a discrete particle then we've already destroyed the isotropic radiator since its path is singular. Einstein has already destroyed isotropic space and gotten away with it and so do many others in modern day brane theories and string theories. The point to me is to do so consistently rather than arbitrarily. When this is done and spacetime is the resultant then a clean candidate exists. I have done this in pure math form as mere arithmetic by generalizing sign which you can find at my website http://www.BandTechnology.com Arguing on Einsteins topology does not necessarily lead to sensible results. The need to hold one context and work from it denies us the freedom flop the context on its head even though the alternate context has merit. I think this thinking may lead us to believe that the curved space is optional.
- Tim
> > The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have > > changed. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - In terms of arguments on isotropic space and isotropic radiation if we accept the photon as a discrete particle then we've already destroyed the isotropic radiator since its path is singular. Einstein has already destroyed isotropic space and gotten away with it and so do many others in modern day brane theories and string theories. The point to me is to do so consistently rather than arbitrarily. When this is done and spacetime is the resultant then a clean candidate exists. I have done this in pure math form as mere arithmetic by generalizing sign which you can find at my website http://www.BandTechnology.com Arguing on Einsteins topology does not necessarily lead to sensible results. The need to hold one context and work from it denies us the freedom flop the context on its head even though the alternate context has merit. I think this thinking may lead us to believe that the curved space is optional.
- Tim
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 16:12 GMT > > As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on > > the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > simulteously that means that they occurred simultaneous for both the > track and the train observer. Einstein did stipulate that the lightning flashes occurred simultaneously w.r.t. the track, but he also stipulated that the speed of light be the same w.r.t. all inertial frames. The point of his thought experiment was to show that, therefore, the flashes were not simultaneous w.r.t. the train.
You assert that "These possibilities is frame independent," but that is simply to deny Einstein's claim of the RofS. He shows however that the RofS follows from his postulates. What you say is to assert Ken Seto's Postulate.
The answer comes from the experiments. But it is not fair for you to mis-state his claim. He postulates that the speed of light each way on the train is c w.r.t. the train. Since the flashes do not meet at the center of the train, he concludes that they were not simultaneous w.r.t. the train. It follows logically.
You could be right and he wrong -- that is a test of the postulates and is for the experimental evidence to decide -- but if you mis-state his claim, you are merely mistaken.
BTW, if you ever come to understand what Einstein said, please explain it to Androcles.
Uncle Ben
kenseto - 12 Nov 2008 14:37 GMT > > > As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on > > > the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > simultaneously w.r.t. the track, but he also stipulated that the speed > of light be the same w.r.t. all inertial frames. Yes he did stipulated that the speed of light is isotropic in the M and M' frame. But he also made the contradictory stipulation that M' is moving wrt the light fronts....he said that M' is rushing toward the light front from the front c'=c+v and receding away from the light front from the rear c"=c-v. That means that c'=/=c". That means that the speed of light in the M' frame is not isotropic.
Ken Seto
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