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Natural Science Forum / Physics / General Physics / December 2008



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Counterintuitivity

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Alen - 08 Nov 2008 05:08 GMT
The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic
feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the
prompting of some mathematical formula, without the
application of any other principle that might control and
validate its use.

In some circumstances, the counterintuitive can be a
useful tool to correct the deficiencies of common sense,
or even an inadequate philosophical outlook. In the case
of Einstein's train experiment, for example, commom
sense would suggest that it is the train that is moving
through the countryside, rather than the countryside
moving around the stationary train. The principle of
relativity, however, points out that there is no law of
physics that  works any differently in the countryside to
the way it works in the train, such that the countryside
observer could declare it to be 'correct' that it is the train
that is moving in the countryside. Common sense can,
indeed, be tutored, and improved, by such counterintuitivity.

One can, as it were, 'hypnotise' oneself, as a passenger
on a train, into forming a perception of the train being
stationary, with the countryside moving past it, rather than
the other way around, with both views being equally
thinkable. A dramatic example of relativity can be a direct
experience if you are sitting at the window of a carriage,
in a station, beside the carriage of another train, on the
other track, also stationary. If your train begins to move
relative to the other train, you may, on passing the end of
the other train, see, to your surprise, that you are still
stationary, and that it was really the other train that was
moving. Next time it happens, if you remember, you will
have no way of telling which train is moving relative to the
station (assuming the acceleration of your train is usually
imperceptibly smooth), until you can see something in the
station itself. That is, you can see only the relative motion
between yourself and the other train, so that, if you can
suppose the other train to be moving, a passenger
in the other train can equally suppose that you are moving,
no matter which of you is not moving relative to the station.

However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem
posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself
is frame dependent. This leads to the end of the concept
of universal time for all observers. This, in turn, casts doubt
on the philosophical concepts of 'now' and the 'co-existence'
of all things. The question is: does this counterintuitivity tutor
the mind in any improved philosophical understanding that
can replace that which already exists? Unlike with the former
example, in this case I would say not. Instead, the
counterintuitivity is proposed, with the philosophical
implications being simply left unanswered.

I say that this is unsatisfactory, and is of no service to
physics, or to the human understanding in general.
Therefore, I believe that, to be valid, any counterintuitivity
proposed, for example, by a mathematical equation, should
be required to be such as to replace the 'intuition', or
philosophical understanding, that exists, with something
that is a rationally understandable improvement. If this is
lacking, any counterintuitive theory will replace any rational
component of intuition with sheer mystification, rather than
reason, and should therefore be regarded as defective,
until such time as the defect is removed with an explanation
that is more rational than the original intuition. If this is
intrinsically impossible then, I would say, the counterintuitive
theory should be reexamined on the supposition that the
counterintuitivity itself is, in this case, a sign that the theory
can be replaced with an alternative that will provide
a rational explanation. I would argue a general postulate that
mystification is never an intrinsic property of the relationship
between reality and mind as such.

Alen
Androcles - 08 Nov 2008 06:24 GMT
> The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic
> feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> in the other train can equally suppose that you are moving,
> no matter which of you is not moving relative to the station.

Try looking down from a plane (you'll need a window seat).
From 30,000 feet you can quite easily see the fields passing
beneath you.
What makes this, the experiment you've just mentioned, and
the Dover ferry passing the Calais ferry in the harbour intuitive
or counterintuitive is... parallax.
When a foreground object passes through your field of view
rapidly whilst a background object appears not to to pass
as rapidly, then (intuitively), it is you that is moving.
The train in the station has foreground but no background
(another train obscure the background), the airplane seat
has background but no foreground.
Either way the result is that the world moves.
As the train moves through the countryside there are both
foreground and background objects, a tree on the horizon
remains in view, the adjacent track and telegraph poles pass
by rapidly.  In the mid-distance the hedgerow passes by
faster than the tree on the horizon but slower than the
telegrpah poles. The intuitive conclusion is: you are moving.
Without both foreground and background objects in the
same field of view you simply cannot tell.

> However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem
> posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the mind in any improved philosophical understanding that
> can replace that which already exists?

YES!

> Unlike with the former
> example, in this case I would say not.

You've been hypnotised by the power of suggestion and are now
attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it)
to reinforce your own beliefs.

> Instead, the
> counterintuitivity is proposed, with the philosophical
> implications being simply left unanswered.

I've answered it many times.

> I say that this is unsatisfactory, and is of no service to
> physics, or to the human understanding in general.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> philosophical understanding, that exists, with something
> that is a rationally understandable improvement.

Sure. Here you go:
  http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/simultaneous.gif

Lightning strikes two poles simultaneously and is seen by the moving
and stationary observers to be simultaneous. The motion is irrelevant,
the position is of importance.
Einstein was hypnotising you by the power of suggestion. The rascal
performed no service to human understanding of physics.
Should you ever overcome your blind faith and belief in the honesty
of the charlatan and realize he was performing his chicanery on
the world you'll preach another and different gospel, the gospel
according to St. Isaac.

> If this is
> lacking, any counterintuitive theory will replace any rational
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> mystification is never an intrinsic property of the relationship
> between reality and mind as such.

I'm neither mystified nor hypnotised by Einstein's sleight-of-pen.
Simultaneous means "at the same time" and has nothing whatever
to do with the speed of signals or subjectivity of the mind.
Part of your difficulty is the sudden realisation that you've
been duped. Nobody wants to be thought of as a fool, yet
fool you have been. Either continue to be a fool or admit it
and correct yourself.
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 13:45 GMT
> > The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic
> > feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
> and stationary observers to be simultaneous. The motion is irrelevant,
> the position is of importance.

hat's right relative motion and direction of relative motion has no
effect on the simultaneity of the strikes. That's why the speed of
light is isotropic in both frames.

Ken Seto

>  Einstein was hypnotising you by the power of suggestion. The rascal
> performed no service to human understanding of physics.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Androcles - 08 Nov 2008 06:24 GMT
> The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic
> feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> in the other train can equally suppose that you are moving,
> no matter which of you is not moving relative to the station.

Try looking down from a plane (you'll need a window seat).
From 30,000 feet you can quite easily see the fields passing
beneath you.
What makes this, the experiment you've just mentioned, and
the Dover ferry passing the Calais ferry in the harbour intuitive
or counterintuitive is... parallax.
When a foreground object passes through your field of view
rapidly whilst a background object appears not to to pass
as rapidly, then (intuitively), it is you that is moving.
The train in the station has foreground but no background
(another train obscure the background), the airplane seat
has background but no foreground.
Either way the result is that the world moves.
As the train moves through the countryside there are both
foreground and background objects, a tree on the horizon
remains in view, the adjacent track and telegraph poles pass
by rapidly.  In the mid-distance the hedgerow passes by
faster than the tree on the horizon but slower than the
telegrpah poles. The intuitive conclusion is: you are moving.
Without both foreground and background objects in the
same field of view you simply cannot tell.

> However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem
> posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the mind in any improved philosophical understanding that
> can replace that which already exists?

YES!

> Unlike with the former
> example, in this case I would say not.

You've been hypnotised by the power of suggestion and are now
attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it)
to reinforce your own beliefs.

> Instead, the
> counterintuitivity is proposed, with the philosophical
> implications being simply left unanswered.

I've answered it many times.

> I say that this is unsatisfactory, and is of no service to
> physics, or to the human understanding in general.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> philosophical understanding, that exists, with something
> that is a rationally understandable improvement.

Sure. Here you go:
  http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/simultaneous.gif

Lightning strikes two poles simultaneously and is seen by the moving
and stationary observers to be simultaneous. The motion is irrelevant,
the position is of importance.
Einstein was hypnotising you by the power of suggestion. The rascal
performed no service to human understanding of physics.
Should you ever overcome your blind faith and belief in the honesty
of the charlatan and realize he was performing his chicanery on
the world you'll preach another and different gospel, the gospel
according to St. Isaac.

> If this is
> lacking, any counterintuitive theory will replace any rational
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> mystification is never an intrinsic property of the relationship
> between reality and mind as such.

I'm neither mystified nor hypnotised by Einstein's sleight-of-pen.
Simultaneous means "at the same time" and has nothing whatever
to do with the speed of signals or subjectivity of the mind.
Part of your difficulty is the sudden realisation that you've
been duped. Nobody wants to be thought of as a fool, yet
fool you have been. Either continue to be a fool or admit it
and correct yourself.
Alen - 08 Nov 2008 12:34 GMT
[...]

> > However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem
> > posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it)
> to reinforce your own beliefs.

[...]

I can't accept that accusation. I believe that what I said
appeals to the reasoning capacity in others, and nothing
else.

Alen
Androcles - 08 Nov 2008 15:35 GMT
On Nov 8, 5:24 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...@Hogwarts.physics> wrote:
> "Alen" <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message
>
> news:53917523-6fa1-4c96-b765-e3be80ce5c2a@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

[...]

> > However, in the solution to the nonsimultaneity problem
> > posed by the train experiment, it is proposed that time itself
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> attempting to hypnotise others (even though you may not realize it)
> to reinforce your own beliefs.

[...]

I can't accept that accusation. I believe that what I said
appeals to the reasoning capacity in others, and nothing
else.
=======================================
And so you snip the evidence I proffered and call that "reason",
your excuse being that you feel I was making an accusation?
You are definitely hypnotised or indoctrinated, whatever name
it goes by.
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 06:46 GMT
> The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic
> feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
> Alen

But you see, there are these little facts that are demonstrated in
experiments.  Indeed, in the view of many people, the whole difference
between physics and mathematics is that physics is constrained by
observation of nature, while mathematicians can freelhy invent any
hypotheses they like.

I'm sure that Einstein and others at the beginning of the twentieth
century did not welcome and relish the thought that time might be
frame dependent.  They too, no doubt, felt uprooted in their
intuitions about space and time. This change in thinking was not
chosen as an option;  it was forced on us by facts.

If you want to predict nature, you must find and consent to natures
laws.  And if nature does not provide us humans with the everyday
experience of speeds of the order of light speed, then our intuitions
will not develop to let us comprehend nature accurately and
intuitively.

For us, we must adapt our intuitions to new facts which may be
discovered in unfamiliar reaches of nature.  It may not be easy, and
mystification may occur during the process.  But an allegiance to
rationality, not home-grown intuition, brings us eventually to new
intuitions that serve us better if our business takes us to unfamiliar
regimes of experience.

Uncle Ben
Alen - 08 Nov 2008 12:40 GMT
[...]

> > Therefore, I believe that, to be valid, any counterintuitivity
> > proposed, for example, by a mathematical equation, should
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> intuitions about space and time. This change in thinking was not
> chosen as an option;  it was forced on us by facts.

But was it? What you say is true only if there is
no better theory than the one they came up with
to explain the facts. But perhaps there is!

> If you want to predict nature, you must find and consent to natures
> laws.  And if nature does not provide us humans with the everyday
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben

New intuitions, yes, and more rational ones than the
former. I agee. But not new mystifications to replace old
intuitions, which reduce, rather than increase, rationality.

Alen
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 18:08 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

There are hundreds of thousands of physicists in the world, including
engineers that work as physicists.  I doubt that you could find 1% of
them that do not fully subscribe to Special Relativity within its
domain of applicability. It has been settled for a long time.

This newsgroup, on the other hand, is populated in the majority by
what we call cranks -- people who believe themselves to be the only
intelligent life forms on earth and who regard anything that they
don't understand as "obviously false."  Every physics department in
the world receives monthly letters from these people showing how SR is
"obviously false."  Most departments simply discard these letters.

Explaining to them what their errors are is like talking to a brick.
So we don't even try anymore.

Take your buddy, Androcles, for example.  His signature comment claims
that Einstein violated his own Second Postulate by stating that the
speed of light one way is c+v and the other way
c-v.  He points to Einstein's original relativity paper called "on the
electrodynamics of moving bodies."  Androcles can indeed find the
expressions "c+v" and "c-v" in that paper under the discussion of the
Doppler Effect.

But what Einstein meant by "c+v" was not the speed of light but the
"closure rate" of light moving at c and an object moving at v. It is
the number that you divide into the distance between the two things to
get the time remaining until closure.

No matter how often this is pointed out to Androcles, he persists in
claiming that Einstein was inconsistent.  So we have to write him off
as an ineducable crank.

SR explains many weird and wonderful phenomena in physics.  And no one
has come up with a better theory than SR in the almost 100 years that
it has been in existence.  It is time for the cranks to find other
windmills against which to tilt.

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 20:19 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Since you sound like a sincere seeker after the truth, I will answer
you if you describe what you see as a mystificaion that goes all the
way to irrationality.  I'd like to know what has you upset.

Uncle Ben
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 03:59 GMT
[...]

> > > For us, we must adapt our intuitions to new facts which may be
> > > discovered in unfamiliar reaches of nature.  It may not be easy, and
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben

I will give you just one example in SR, from a
philosophical viewpoint only. Let A and B be
stationary, and let B accelerate into a new
inertial frame relative to A. After a time, A
will be at time T, and B will be at time T', as
viewed by A. If this means that there is no
common universal time for A and B, can we
say they both continue to exist? What does this
mean? To co-exist means to exist together 'now'.
Therefore, to say that they co-exist, but not at
any time common to them both, is really to say
that they 'now' co-exist 'not-now', which is
philosophical nonsense.

No SR scientist, to my knowledge, has ever
given an answer to this, or even shown any
interest in it.

Alen
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 12:31 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think your prbblem can be solved by expressing it somewhat
differently.  A and B are material objects. From a state in which both
are unaccelerated and at rest with respect to an inertial frame of
reference S, B undergoes a period of acceleration, after which B is
unaccelerated. In the following, I use variables xS and tS, which are
place and time w.r.t. S, and similarly variables xS' and tS' as place
and time w.r.t. a different frame of reference S'.

We can describe the process from any inertial frame of reference we
like.  Let's choose frame S. The equation of motion of A is trivial:
xS = 0 for all tS.  For B, if we say that the acceleration starts as
tS=0 and stops at tS=15 seconds, B will be travelling at some speed v,
and its equation of motion is xS = v*tS + C, where C is a constant
distance determined by the acceleration. and tS > 15 seconds.

If you ask where A and B will be at any time tS > 15, these equations
of motion will give you the answers. No mystery.

If you would like to describe this process with respect to a different
frame of reference S', one, say, in which B is again unaccelerated and
now at rest at the origin, you simply change variables through a
Lorentz transformation.  You will get new variables xS' and tS' and
have your answer.

If you want to know where A and B are at any time after the time tS' =
however many seconds corresponds to tS=15, A will be at xS' - v tS' +
D, another constant, and B will be at the origin of S'.

Is there still a problem?

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 13:11 GMT
> > [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Typo:  Instead of

> If you want to know where A and B are at any time after the time tS' =
> however many seconds corresponds to tS=15, A will be at xS' - v tS' +
> D, another constant, and B will be at the origin of S'.

it should be

> If you want to know where A and B are at any time after the time tS' =
> however many seconds corresponds to tS=15, A will be at xS' = - v tS' +
> D, another constant, and B will be at the origin of S'.

I never said that I am a careful typist.

Uncle Ben
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 13:24 GMT
> > [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben

You are giving B, for example, a location in A's frame,
i.e. v*tS + C. Are you saying that B is at some spacetime
event IN A's frame, rather than merely one that is observed
FROM A's frame? If so, B's clock will not identify B as
being at that spacetime event. So, are you saying that
B occupies more than one spacetime event at once?
I don't think that is the picture proposed by the
Minkowski spacetime explanation, is it?!

If an observer can be at only one spacetime event
at once, then co-existence requires, philosophically,
a universal common time shared by all observers.

Alen
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 13:37 GMT
> > > [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>
> Alen

Correction! On second thoughts, even an observer
occupying two spacetime events at once is a
paradoxical concept, in that it raises the problem
as to the creation of a 'co-existence' of spacetime
events that do not share a common time.

Alen
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 15:21 GMT
> > > > [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

This may be at the heart of your problem.

A frame of reference is a coordinate system.  A and B are objects.
Even if A is at rest in a frame S, both A and B are objects that have
coordinates w.r.t. S.  It makes no sense to say that S is A's frame,
except as a confusing figure of speech.

Let A be a hamburger at the north pole.  Let B be a hockey puck also
at the north pole a few inches away. If S is then a frame of reference
with origin at the north pole and x axis tangent to the 0 deg
meridian, then both objects are at rest w.r.t. S.

Let B be smacked by a freezing goalie at t = 0.  Then to a good
approximation, B has an equation of motion w.r.t. S, x = vt, t>0.  A
has equation of motion x = 0 for t>0.

These coordinates are what I called xS and tS indicating that they are
measured w.r.t. the S frame of reference.

You can imagine another frame of reference if you like and substitute
the variables to get a different description of the same scenario.
Then we would have to use a notation for x and t w.r.t. that frame of
reference.  But we don't have to do that. We can describe B's motion
w.r.t. S just as wall.

The only event mentioned explicitly is the one at x=0, t=0 when the
puck got smacked. You can imagine an infinity of events after that,
each of which has coordinates in S -- and coordinates in any other
frame of reference you define.  But I don't see the point in that.

Does this help?

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 15:34 GMT
> > > > > [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Footnote to the previous post:

I see from your posts that you have taken all the talk about observers
and their clocks literally, as discussed in elementary texts.  The
authors use this way of discussion to try and personalize it, just as
Einstein did.  But after one arrives at the Lorentz transformation and
is ready to apply the theory, all that becomes confusing rather than
hel;pful.

We don't need to repeat the observer story and their confusing thought
processes anymore.  Replace them with automated measuring devices.
Once you have a frame of reference, all you need to discuss are events
and their coordinates.
Uncle Ben - 09 Nov 2008 15:49 GMT
> > > > > > [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 151 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Footnote 2:

Remember that a frame of reference is, in principle, an entire network
of observers who have synchronized their clocks while at rest.  If
anything happens in their world, there will be an imaginary observer
at that point in space who will record his time for that event.  The
world is filled with this infinity of observers with synchronized
clocks.

If you consider another different frame of reference, then you imagine
that there is another infinite set of observers, filling the same
space as the first except that they are moving together as one, all
with their own clocks synchronized with each other.

You can see that this picture is unneccesarily complicated.  It has
become a fairy tale for beginners.

Uncle Ben
Alen - 10 Nov 2008 00:45 GMT
[...]
> Footnote 2:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben

I don't think we are making any progress with this.
You are convinced that it is merely a matter of my
own difficulty, in which I need to be helped to an
answer which certainly exists. But, in fact, there
is no satisfactory answer to the philosophical
problem, other than by an alternative to the
Minkowski spacetime interpretation of SR.

Alen
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 01:15 GMT
> [...]
> > Footnote 2:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Do you not accept that a frame of reference is a coordinate system in
which any number of events can be given coordinates of space and time?

You certainly accept that the Cartesian plane with axes x and y can
display any number of points and give them x and y coordinates.  Why
not an x-t plane that can show any number of events and give them x
and t coordinates.  There does not have to be a different plane for
each point.  Similarly there does not have to be a different reference
frame for each event.

I am puzzled by your insistence on making a reference frame belong to
a single event, as in "A's frame"  and "B's frame."

If you do not wish to continue, I wish you well.

Uncle Ben
Sue... - 10 Nov 2008 01:33 GMT
> > [...]
> > > Footnote 2:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Do you not accept that a frame of reference is a coordinate system in
> which any number of events can be given coordinates of space and time?

Such a co-ordinate system is in conflict with the
inverse square law and the finite speed of light.

See:
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node113.html

Sue...

> You certainly accept that the Cartesian plane with axes x and y can
> display any number of points and give them x and y coordinates.  Why
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben
Alen - 10 Nov 2008 13:10 GMT
> > [...]
> > > Footnote 2:
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben

Very well, I will answer this. Our practical experience of
a t coordinate is totally different to any x or y coordinate.
In space we can move back and forth along x and y axes,
as we please, and can arbitrarily access any part of an
object, of finite size, in space, that occupies a whole set
of coordinates describing its length or area, etc. With time
the case is completely different. We cannot arbitrarily access
time coordinate values in past, present, and future, as we
can access spatial coordinate values. In any reference
frame, we can access only one time coordinate value, and
are compelled to scan coordinate values in time, one after
the other, and cannot move back and forth in time as
we please. A reality at a time coordinate value in the
past is something that has become permanently
inaccessible to us. If something was destroyed, then
we cannot go back in time to retrieve it, as we might
go from one place to another in space to retrieve an
object, no matter what kind of time coordinate value we
might give it. It no longer exists.

Alen
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 13:54 GMT
> > > [...]
> > > > Footnote 2:
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree with all of this, but t is not relevant.  A frame of reference
consists in imagination as a vast army of "observers" -- one for every
spatial point in the universe.  Each of these observer (in
imagination) has a clock, and it is imagined that all of these clocks
have been synchornized with respect to a central clock, say, at the
origin.

Then whenever an event occurs at point x=17, the observer at that
point notes the time and reports his own spatial coordinate, 17, and
the time of the event, t=256 seconds. He can then send a report of his
observation back to the origin by carrier pigeon.

So nobody has to peer into the past.  All observations are made on the
spot and on the moment and relayed to anybody else who needs it.

As I said before, this is a fairy tale for beginners, and all can be
replaced by describing events in terms of the spatial and temporal
coordinates.  So when we are discussing a hypothetical event, it is
sufficient to dismiss all of the infinity of observers and just cite
the coordinates of the event.

When I described the scenario you proposed for object B, I gave x as a
function of t.  You can say that this described an infinity of events
arrayed, if you like, in order of t and giving x for each.

The trouble with saying that an object is "in" a frame of reference is
that the language suggests something in a box which cannot be in
another box.  It is much clearer to say that events anywhere in the
universe have coordinates measured (in imagination, if necessary) WITH
RESPECT TO a frame of reference and having different coordinates WITH
RESPECT TO any other frame of reference you may wish to define.

So when you are comparing objects A and B, you can do so in a frame of
reference in which A is at rest, or in a frame of reference in which B
comes to rest after acceleration.  The coordinates in one frame are
related to the coordinates in the other frame by the Lorentz
Transformation.

So in these terms, you will see, I hope, that there is never any need
for an observer to be at two events at the same time.  He has jillions
of other observers already deployed who will report events to him.

Hence no philosophical problem.

I applaud your decision to continue the discussion.  SR has been
settled for more than 100 years.  It is not liable to be caught in
contradictions at this late stage.  There have been intelligent people
dealing with it besides ourselves.

Uncle Ben
Alen - 11 Nov 2008 03:18 GMT
[...]

> > Very well, I will answer this. Our practical experience of
> > a t coordinate is totally different to any x or y coordinate.
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
> Uncle Ben

I know you are trying very hard to make Minkowski
spacetime display no philosophical problem. As you
can see from my remarks, I think no such attempts
can ever be seen to really work on closer examination.

Minkowski spacetime has a lot invested in it over the
last 100 years. It is a metric theory. It allows the SR
equations to be simple geometrical transformations,
which can be associated with Lorentz invariance
in coordinate transformations in a whole variety
of contexts. It can also be inserted, as a geometric
theory, into the geometric theory of GR, and thus
emerge as the local version of GR geometry.

Yet, in spite of all this, I say that it will eventually turn
out to have been one of the greatest errors in the
history of science. SR will turn out to be due to
the working of light, rather than geometry, and
the true explanation will also automatically provide
an explanation of the working of other peculiarities
of light, like nonlocality and quantum erasure, and
both these, and SR, will then have a single
explanation.

Alen
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 03:36 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, I don't hear any more from you about counterintuivity -- no
observers in two places at once, no B's disappearing -- so I guess
we've made a little progress.  Let's leave it at that.

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 03:45 GMT
> [...]
> > Footnote 2:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

There is no philosophical problem.  You just don't understand what a
frame of reference is. I did my best for you, but c'est la vie.

Uncle Ben
harry - 10 Nov 2008 07:49 GMT
On Nov 10, 2:49 am, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:

: in fact, there
: is no satisfactory answer to the philosophical
: problem, other than by an alternative to the
: Minkowski spacetime interpretation of SR.

As you know since they were discussed in this thread, there are at least two
alternatives to the eternalism interpretation (the Lorentz interpretation
and the Berkeley interpretation). For me Lorentz's interpretation is the
most intuitive while you appear to find Berkely's interpretation more
intuitive. None of the three can be decided by experiments, and it's even
problematic to explain them since people understand different things with
the same words - that's the problem with philosophy.

Cheers,
Harald
Jerry - 13 Nov 2008 19:25 GMT
> I see from your posts that you have taken all the talk about observers
> and their clocks literally, as discussed in elementary texts.  The
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Once you have a frame of reference, all you need to discuss are events
> and their coordinates.

This is a very important point, Alen.

What an observer SEES can be very different from what one he
MEASURES as happening in a frame of reference, due to
differential light propagation delays between when a signal from
one event reaches the observer, versus when another event reaches
the observer. A relativistically foreshortened object may not
LOOK foreshortened at all, but may look simply tilted. Crackpots
regularly have a field day getting the effects of plain ordinary
Doppler shift mixed up with the effects of time dilation.

In my arguments with Ken Seto, I've become aware that he is very
confused about the whole what-an-observer-SEES-versus-what-is-
measured-within-a-frame-of-reference issue, and I've repeatedly
challenged him on the basis of what-an-observer-SEES because of
his inability to understand basic measurement principles.

For example, these applets that I wrote for Ken attempt to show
what the observers SEE. Note how complicated they are compared
with what they would be if Ken understood the concept of a
reference frame (as Ben wrote elsewhere, "an entire network of
observers who have synchronized their clocks while at rest").
http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/simultaneity/Simultaneous.htm

Jerry
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 14:57 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> that they 'now' co-exist 'not-now', which is
> philosophical nonsense.

The existence of absolute time will resolve this as follow:
1. While they are together 1A clock second contains the same amount of
absolute time as 1 B clock second.
2. After B accelerated away 1 B clock second contains a larger amount
of absolute time than 1 A clock second....that is the cause of clock B
is running slower than clock A. Mathematically:
1 B clock second=gamma(1 A clock second). Sr calls this as time
dilation rather than that a clock second is no longer representing the
same amount of absolute time in the A and B frame.
3. In term of absolute time: 1 B clock second represents the same
amount of absolute time as
gamma(1 A clock second). Therefore both A and B are still in the same
NOW.
4. The existence of absolute time also explains why all observer
measure the speed of light to be a constant math ratio as follows:
Light path length of ruler (299,792,458 m long physically)/the
absolute time content for a clock second co-moving with the ruler.

The paper in the following link explains this new concept in details:
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2008IRT.DTG.pdf
Also please visit my website for more papers on my theory:
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm

Ken Seto

> No SR scientist, to my knowledge, has ever
> given an answer to this, or even shown any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Alen - 11 Nov 2008 02:55 GMT
[...]

> > I will give you just one example in SR, from a
> > philosophical viewpoint only. Let A and B be
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Ken Seto

I agree with you that all observers share a common
absolute time. I don't think of time dilation in terms
of different quantities of absolute time for different clocks.
Instead, I think of time dilation as being a historical
view of a moving frame caused by a peculiarity in the
nature of light, in terms of the working of the light
postulate. So we partly agree and partly disagree.
But that's ok. All possibilities should be considered.

Alen
Androcles - 11 Nov 2008 03:29 GMT
On Nov 11, 1:57 am, kenseto <kens...@erinet.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 10:59 pm, Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote:

[...]

> > I will give you just one example in SR, from a
> > philosophical viewpoint only. Let A and B be
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Ken Seto

I agree with you that all observers share a common
absolute time. I don't think of time dilation in terms
of different quantities of absolute time for different clocks.
Instead, I think of time dilation as being a historical
view of a moving frame caused by a peculiarity in the
nature of light, in terms of the working of the light
postulate. So we partly agree and partly disagree.
But that's ok. All possibilities should be considered.

Alen

=========================================
You've been hypnotised. The time postulate is:

"the ``time'' required by light to travel from A to B equals the ``time'' it
requires to travel from B to A".

The word ``time'' in quotation marks isn't time, it is something
Einstein wants to adjust.

What kind of lunacy prompted Einstein to say
the speed of light from A to B is c-v,
the speed of light from B to A is c+v,
the "time" each way is the same?

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WEAM.htm

Watch out or Seto will hypnotise you into believing in aether
or some such peculiarity in the nature of light to agree with
Einstein's light postulate. But that's ok. You've been hypnotised
before.
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 03:44 GMT
(snip)

> What kind of lunacy prompted Einstein to say
> the speed of light from A to B is c-v,
> the speed of light from B to A is c+v,
> the "time" each way is the same?

(snip)

See, everybody, our lion's friend is still misrepresenting Einstein.
He just won't learn.

The speed of light from A to B is still c, but its target is moving
away at v, so the path is longer.  Similarly in the other direction,
light is still moving at speed c but the target is moving closer at v,
so that path is shorter. Read Einstein and see.

Uncle Ben
kenseto - 11 Nov 2008 14:01 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> absolute time. I don't think of time dilation in terms
> of different quantities of absolute time for different clocks.

I said that a clock second contains a different amount of absolute
time (duration)in different frames. This is different than your
interpretation above. Experimentally: 1 second of the stay at home
clock is equal to 1/gamma second for the traveling clock in terms of
absolute time.
What this mean is that the current definition for time needs to be
changed to reflect that a clock second does not represent the same
amount of TIME (DURATION).
What I said is confirmed by the GPS clock. The GPS clock second is
adjusted to have 4.15 more periods of the Cs radiation than the ground
clock second. This is to accommodate the fact that the ground clock
second contains a larger amount of absolute time than the GPS second.

Ken Seto

> Instead, I think of time dilation as being a historical
> view of a moving frame caused by a peculiarity in the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Nov 2008 06:48 GMT
Alen <alen1@westserv.net.au> wrote in message
 53917523-6fa1-4c96-b765-e3be80ce5c2a@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com
> The so-called 'counterintuitive' is a severely problematic
> feature in modern physics. It can be used, merely on the
> prompting of some mathematical formula, without the
> application of any other principle that might control and
> validate its use.

Usually such "some mathematical formula" does not merely fall
out the sky with the intention to cause a panic.
First study this
  http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html ,
and then ask yourself whether "the so-called 'counterintuitive'
is a severely problematic feature in modern physics", or whether
it is a severely problematic feature in the severely untrained and
ignorant brain of Joe the Plumber.

Dirk Vdm
Pentcho Valev - 08 Nov 2008 07:30 GMT
On Nov 8, 8:48 am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote in sci.physics.relativity:
> Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Dirk Vdm

Bravo Moortel! Good zombie good sycophant! Unfortunately Master Tom
Roberts's teaching is silly:

http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html
Master Tom Roberts: "The Michelson-Morley experiment (MMX) was
intended to measure the velocity of the Earth relative to the
"lumeniferous 洨er" which was at the time presumed to carry
electromagnetic phenomena. The failure of it and the other early
experiments to actually observe the Earth's motion through the 洨er
became significant in promoting the acceptance of Einstein's theory of
Special Relativity, as it was appreciated from early on that
Einstein's approach (via symmetry) was more elegant and parsimonious
of assumptions than were other approaches (e.g. those of Maxwell,
Hertz, Stokes, Fresnel, Lorentz, Ritz, and Abraham)."

Now compare Master Tom Roberts' teaching with Master John Norton's
teaching (Master John Norton's teaching is by no means silly):

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001743/02/Norton.pdf
Master John Norton: "Einstein regarded the Michelson-Morley experiment
as evidence for the principle of relativity, whereas later writers
almost universally use it as support for the light postulate of
special relativity......THE MICHELSON-MORLEY EXPERIMENT IS FULLY
COMPATIBLE WITH AN EMISSION THEORY OF LIGHT THAT CONTRADICTS THE LIGHT
POSTULATE."

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
Uncle Ben - 08 Nov 2008 08:48 GMT
> On Nov 8, 8:48 am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
> <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote in sci.physics.relativity:
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

But then there are these little properties of light such as
interference, diffraction, wavelength, and frequency which are NOT
compatible with a bullet theory of light.

And there is this little Nobel-prize-winning Quantum Electrodynamics,
which is compatible with x-rays, gamma rays, radio waves, microwaves,
photoelectric effect, and in fact, with all of the known properties of
light and light-like phenomena and special relativity and without an
ether.

Uncle Ben
Pentcho Valev - 08 Nov 2008 09:19 GMT
> >http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001743/02/Norton.pdf
> > Master John Norton: "Einstein regarded the Michelson-Morley experiment
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> interference, diffraction, wavelength, and frequency which are NOT
> compatible with a bullet theory of light.

Some of the properties of light seem to obey the discontinuous
"bullet" model of light, others the continuous "field" model.
According to Einstein, it is "entirely possible" that the property
defined as "dependence/independence of the speed of light on the speed
of the light source", on which Einstein's theory is based, obeys the
discontinuous "bullet" model, but your Masters do not take this
seriously:

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=317&I
temid=81&lecture_id=3576

John Stachel: "Einstein discussed the other side of the particle-field
dualism - get rid of fields and just have particles."
Albert Einstein: "I consider it entirely possible that physics cannot
be based upon the field concept, that is on continuous structures.
Then nothing will remain of my whole castle in the air, including the
theory of gravitation, but also nothing of the rest of contemporary
physics."
John Stachel's comment: "If I go down, everything goes down, ha ha,
hm, ha ha ha."

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Nov 2008 10:57 GMT
Uncle Ben <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
 60638343-efbe-4355-8ffe-aab986e6f791@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com
>> On Nov 8, 8:48 am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
>> <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote in sci.physics.relativity:
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> light and light-like phenomena and special relativity and without an
> ether.

And then there is also this little list of differences which
are not compatible with that which Poncho Volvo can wrap his
tiny little mind around:
   - rates vs. values,
   - a personal humorous musing vs. a common dogma,
   - children's books vs. inspired essays,
   - physicists vs. philosophers,
   - coordinate time vs. proper time,
   - invariance vs. constancy,
   - special relativity vs. general relativity,
   - teachers vs. hypnotists,
   - laymen vs. zombies,
   - a person being right vs. a theory being right,
   - students vs. imbeciles,
   - bad science vs. bad engineering,
   - bad engineering vs. bad cost management,
   - honing the foundations of a theory vs. fighting it,
   - physics vs. linguistics,
   - an article written in 1905 vs. a theory created in 1915,
   - understanding a book vs. turning its pages,
   - speed vs. relative (aka closing) speed,
   - doing algebra vs. randomly writing down symbols,
   - real life vs. a Usenet hobby group,
   - receiving a detailed reply vs. being ignored,
   - everyday concepts vs. scientific concepts in physics,
   - the three things that smell like fish,
   - inertial vs. non-inertial,
   - speed vs. velocity,
   - an article vs. a book,
   - relativity vs. disguised ether addiction,
   - algebra vs. analytic geometry,
   - kneeling down vs. bending over,
   - local vs. global,
   - a sycophant in English vs. in French,
   - a relation vs. an equation,
   - massive vs. massless particles,
   - a Mexican poncho vs. a Sears poncho,
   - implication vs. equivalence,
   - group velocity vs. phase velocity,
   - science vs. religion

Dirk Vdm
Hayek - 08 Nov 2008 13:22 GMT
> Uncle Ben <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
>  60638343-efbe-4355-8ffe-aab986e6f791@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> are not compatible with that which Poncho Volvo can wrap his
> tiny little mind around:

Let me rate you - call it an apple review, (not pear)

>    - rates vs. values,
Is time a rate or a value ?
>    - a personal humorous musing vs. a common dogma,
Your escape route if your common dogma is unmasked ?
>    - children's books vs. inspired essays,
On the next paradigm shift the latter could turn into the former.
>    - physicists vs. philosophers,
Philosophers point out the carelessness of the physicists.
They used to be one and the same, but like in the movie "The dark
crystal", they got split up. My sympathy and allegiance used to be with
the physicists, but after seeing them dabble in their own
self-rightneousness and dogma, I'd rather be a philospher.
>    - coordinate time vs. proper time,
You do not understand any of them.
>    - invariance vs. constancy,

>    - special relativity vs. general relativity,
Both unaware that it is aal about inertia.
>    - teachers vs. hypnotists,
Those who can, do, those who can't teach.
Those who can't teach, are called D*rks.
>    - laymen vs. zombies,
A zombie that does mathematica ?
>    - a person being right vs. a theory being right,
You are a leftist, as every Belgian is, and theories are replaced at the
next paradigm. FTL is coming.
>    - students vs. imbeciles,
You once were both, now just the latter.
>    - bad science vs. bad engineering,
I bet you excell at both.
>    - bad engineering vs. bad cost management,
Same as above, Belgium has the highest telecom costs of the world.
>    - honing the foundations of a theory vs. fighting it,
Both could be effective.
>    - physics vs. linguistics,
A deaf-mute or D*rk on what is time.
The deaf-mute can explain it in sign language.
>    - an article written in 1905 vs. a theory created in 1915,
And both using an Aether.
>    - understanding a book vs. turning its pages,
No difference for you, you never opened "Gravitation".
>    - speed vs. relative (aka closing) speed,
Did you just mean : absolute vs relative speed ?
>    - doing algebra vs. randomly writing down symbols,
Infinite number of monkeys doing String Theory and ending up with
10^100 possibilities of the TOE ?
>    - real life vs. a Usenet hobby group,
Or Usenet to satisfy your inferiority complex and your sociopathic
tendencies ?
>    - receiving a detailed reply vs. being ignored,
Where are the relativity cops when you need them ?
>    - everyday concepts vs. scientific concepts in physics,
Understanding=mechanical model--Lord Kelvin.
>    - the three things that smell like fish,
So, that's were you live !

>    - inertial vs. non-inertial,
To Mach, or not to Mach.
>    - speed vs. velocity,
Depends on what angle you look at it.
>    - an article vs. a book,
A long article or a short book, nether wiil make you understand Mach's
Principle.
>    - relativity vs. disguised ether addiction,
So, that's what caused your brain damage.
And now relativity is your way of staying clean.
The institute director said, pursue any goal in life, but stay clear of
the Ether.
>    - algebra vs. analytic geometry,
You can't have one without the other.
>    - kneeling down vs. bending over,
Oral or Anal ?
>    - local vs. global,
As long as the gamma stays the same, no problemo.
>    - a sycophant in English vs. in French,
In french un sycophante. Kut met Peer review.
>    - a relation vs. an equation,
Really D*rk ? A love affair with your horse ?
>    - massive vs. massless particles,
I heared of really small testicles, but massless ?
>    - a Mexican poncho vs. a Sears poncho,
A real Mexican Poncho, made in China, sold at Sears.
>    - implication vs. equivalence,
Your stupidity ?
>    - group velocity vs. phase velocity,
Boring. We want real FTL, if only to shut up relativists.
>    - science vs. religion
For you : completely equivalent.
As long as it is in books and papers.
By respected priests only of course.

Uwe Hayek.
Does not "believe" in HIV, like you do.
Alen - 08 Nov 2008 12:51 GMT
On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Dirk Vdm

Oh, it may well be so for Joe as well!

But do try to give me credit for being able to
distinguish between the following:

1) Experimental facts.
2) Mathematical equations.
3) Theoretical concepts and postulates.

I say that 1 and 2 are not, in themselves, intuitive
or counterintuitive, but only the 3s that are connected
with them, and from which they can arise, and to which
they can lead. The point is that there can be more
than one 3 for any example of 1 and 2 that go together.
If 3 is counterintuitive to the point of irrationality, then
an attempt should be made to find a more rational
3, independently of any attempt to alter 1 or 2. That
is my argument. Thus, I make no argument for
setting up intuition, or philosophical considerations,
against 1 and 2, or 1 especially. The argument involves
3 only.

Alen
Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Nov 2008 14:03 GMT
Alen <alen1@westserv.net.au> wrote in message
 1767ec75-2672-4eff-8c74-9153b929c9df@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com
> On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel"
> <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> 2) Mathematical equations.
> 3) Theoretical concepts and postulates.

Ah, but you lost that credit a long time ago.

Dirk Vdm
Alen - 09 Nov 2008 03:07 GMT
On Nov 9, 1:03 am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alen <al...@westserv.net.au> wrote in message
>
>   1767ec75-2672-4eff-8c74-9153b929c...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com

[...]
> >> Usually such "some mathematical formula" does not merely fall
> >> out the sky with the intention to cause a panic.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Dirk Vdm

Very well! Don't try to give me any credit, then!

But I know what I am talking about, nonetheless.

Alen
Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com - 08 Nov 2008 14:11 GMT
> On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel"
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > > application of any other principle that might control and
> > > validate its use.

I don't think we even need a formula. One word in particular exposes
the (counter)intuitive paradigm:
  ISOTROPIC
Is space the same in every direction?
Or is space unique in every direction?
Are these two direct inverts?
They cannot both be true.
This is a logical opening to structured spacetime, which will simplify
Maxwell's equations by yielding them via the structure of spacetime.
Relativity theory has not gone far enough.
According to Einstein:
  "However, the most careful observations have never revealed such
anisotropic properties in terrestrial physical space, i.e. a physical
non-equivalence of different directions. This is a very powerful
argument in favour of the principle of relativity."
  - http://www.bartleby.com/173/5.html

Even while these words are half accurate they are half conflicted.
Structured spacetime will be acceptable so long as relative reference
frames are possible. This means that it is alright to structure space
itself as a bidirectional line crossed with a rotational plane. This
then allows for the possibility of electron spin as an inherent
property of the electron due to spacetime itself.

String and brane theorists should be playing here, but they do not.
They are afraid to modify existing theory. Instead they crouch down
beneath it at some subparticle level. They should be modeling the
electron more directly. I shouldn't make such a blanket statement
since I can't read all, but this is my impression.

- Tim

> > Usually such "some mathematical formula" does not merely fall
> > out the sky with the intention to cause a panic.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Alen
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 14:19 GMT
On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
<tttppp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > On Nov 8, 5:48 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel"
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> argument in favour of the principle of relativity."
>    -http://www.bartleby.com/173/5.html

But the bogus SR concept of Relativity of Simultaneity (RoS)is born
from the "a physical of non-equivalence of different directions." RoS
says that the speed of light in the train in Einstein's train gedanken
is anisotropic (c+v) and (c-v).
The paper in the following link describes a new theory of relative
called Improved Relativity Theory (IRT). IRT includes SRT as a subset.
However, the equations of IRT have an unlimited dommain of
applicability. Therefore they are valid for use to replace GRT in
cosmology applications.
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2008IRT.DTG.pdf
Also visit my website for more papers on my theory:
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm

Ken Seto

> Even while these words are half accurate they are half conflicted.
> Structured spacetime will be acceptable so long as relative reference
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 15:29 GMT
> On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Kenseto, you repeat the misinformation that Androcles keeps repeating
regarding what Einstein said in his original discussion of the doppler
effect.  Einstein did not say that c+v and c-v are speeds of light.

What he said was that if light is travelling toward a moving object
moving toward the approaching light, the time it takes them to come
together is the distance between them divided by the rate of closure:
the speed of light plus the speed of the object.  The speed of light
is still c and the speed of the object is v.  Their closure rate is c
+v;  that is NOT the speed of light.

I hope that this is the first time anyone has told you this.  If not,
then you must ineducable and qualify for the degree of Crank First
Class along with Androcles, and we can put you in our killfiles.

Uncle Ben
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 18:44 GMT
> > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> regarding what Einstein said in his original discussion of the doppler
> effect.  Einstein did not say that c+v and c-v are speeds of light.

No....it is not the Doppler effect I was talking about. In Einsteins
train gedanken where he derive the bogus concept of Relativity of
Simultaneity (RoS). He said that the light front from the front is
arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear
is arrivng at M' with a speed of c-v. That means that two different
transit times for light to traverse the same length. That means that
the speed of light in the M' frame is not isotropic. That means that
the bogus concept of RoS contradicts the SR postulates.

Ken Seto

> What he said was that if light is travelling toward a moving object
> moving toward the approaching light, the time it takes them to come
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 19:42 GMT
> > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

In the train gedanken experiment, Einstein determines the length of
the train WITH RESPECT TO THE STATION.

You said

> In Einsteins
> train gedanken where he derive the bogus concept of Relativity of
> Simultaneity (RoS). He said that the light front from the front is
> arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear
> is arriving at M' with a speed of c-v. That means that two different
> transit times for light to traverse the same length.

This is not true relative to the station.  From the back of the train
to the front, the light has to travel farther than the length of the
train, because the front of the train is moving away from it.
Similarly it has to travel in return less than the length of the
train, because back of the train is moving towards it.

The light is travelling at c, but the distances are not the same
relative to the station.

That's not so difficult, is it?

Uncle Ben

"the light front from the front is
> arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear
> is arriving at M' with a speed of c-v,"

since what he means is that the rate of closure between two moving
things is the sum of their speeds.  The distance that the light
travels each way is not the same with respect to the laboratory, since
the rod is moving while the light is in transit.

And thus it is not true that "That means that two different transit
times for light to traverse the same length," since with respect to
the laboratory the lengths are not the same. With respect to the
laboratory, the light has to travel farther from the back of the train
to the front of the train -- farther than the length of the train --
because the train is moving.

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 20:01 GMT
> > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

You said

> In Einsteins
> train gedanken where he derive the bogus concept of Relativity of
> Simultaneity (RoS). He said that the light front from the front is
> arriving at M' with a speed of c+v and the light front from the rear
> is arriving at M' with a speed of c-v. That means that two different
> transit times for light to traverse the same length.

Einstein was comparing what is simultaneous with respect to the train
with what is simultaneous with respect to the station.  There is no
problem with respect to the train.

This is not true relative to the station.  From the back of the train
to the front, the light has to travel farther than the length of the
train, because while the light is travelling, the front of the train
is moving away from it.

Similarly it has to travel in return less than the length of the
train, because back of the train is moving towards it while the light
is moving.

The light is travelling at c, but the distances are not the same
relative to the station. This contradicts your last statement.

That's not so difficult, is it?

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 20:14 GMT
> > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
>
> Ken Seto

With respect, not so.

Einstein compares simultaeity w.r.t. the train with simultaneity
w.r.t. the station to show that they are not the same.

W.r.t. the train it is easy.  Light from the front of the train meets
light from the back in the center.  The pulses are simultaneous.

W.r.t. the station, however, light from the front arrives at the
center first, because the center is moving towards the light at the
speed of the train while the light is in transit.

Light from the rear arrives later than before, because the center is
moving away from the light pulse as the light travels.

The Second Postulate is still in force.  Your last sentence is wrong,
because the distances are not the same when measured w.r.t. the
station.

That's not difficult, is it?

Uncle Ben
kenseto - 10 Nov 2008 21:53 GMT
> > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
> Einstein compares simultaeity w.r.t. the train with simultaneity
> w.r.t. the station to show that they are not the same.

He didn't use the correct

> W.r.t. the train it is easy.  Light from the front of the train meets
> light from the back in the center.  The pulses are simultaneous.

This shows me that you don't understand his gedanken. In his gedanken
he conclude that M' (the train observer) will see the strikes to be
not simultaneous because he is mvoing wrt the light fronts.

> W.r.t. the station, however, light from the front arrives at the
> center first, because the center is moving towards the light at the
> speed of the train while the light is in transit.

Again you don't understand his gedanken. The stipulated that M (the
track observer) sees the strikes to be simultaneous. Also the center
moves wrt the light fronts means anisotropy of the speed of light.

> Light from the rear arrives later than before, because the center is
> moving away from the light pulse as the light travels.

Again you are clearly clueless. Einstein specified that the train
observer is mvoing wrt the light fronts.

> The Second Postulate is still in force.  Your last sentence is wrong,
> because the distances are not the same when measured w.r.t. the
> station.

No its not in force for the train observer because the track observer
asserts that he (M') is moving wrt the light fronts.

> That's not difficult, is it?

Apparently it is very difficult for you.:-(

Ken Seto
Uncle Ben - 10 Nov 2008 22:13 GMT
> > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 156 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

OK, I got them backwards.  I didn't review his statement of the
problem.  But you are a smart guy;  can't you get a clue from what I
wrote that the velocity of light is not shown to be anisotropic?

I could restate the whole thing correctly, but you can see that the
point is that one way the distances are equal and the other way they
are not.  The difference in times is because of the difference in
distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in
distances is because of the motion of the train.

Uncle Ben
kenseto - 11 Nov 2008 00:46 GMT
> > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 160 lines]
> problem.  But you are a smart guy;  can't you get a clue from what I
> wrote that the velocity of light is not shown to be anisotropic?

It is anisotropic if you insist that the front light front takes less
transit time than the rear light front to arrive at the train
observer.

> I could restate the whole thing correctly, but you can see that the
> point is that one way the distances are equal and the other way they
> are not.  

According to the LT the distance for light to reach the track observer
is L and the distance for light to reach the train observer is
gamma*L. Therefore the transit time for the light fronts to reach M is
L/c and the transit time for the light fronts to reach M' is gamma*L/
c. Therefore both M and M' will see the strikes to be simultaneous but
at different times.

>The difference in times is because of the difference in
> distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in
> distances is because of the motion of the train.

This is a bogus assertion.

Ken Seto
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 04:03 GMT
> > > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:11 am, "Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 185 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on
the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not,
I'll state Einstein's version correctly this time.

You say that in Einstein's version, lightning strikes both ends of the
train at the same time w.r.t. to the track, the light from the flashes
arriving at an observer who was by the track at the center of the
train when the lightning flashed -- arriving to him at the same
time.

He asks what about the conductor on the train in the middle?  Will he
see the flashes at the same time?

No, he won't.  Because while the lightning flashes are sending light
towards the middle of the train, the train moves!  So the distance the
rear flash has to go forward is greater w.r.t. the track and the
distrance the forward flash has to travel backward is shorter. So the
flashes are not simultaneous w.r.t. the train.

The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have
changed.

I think a fifth grader could understand this. But as Jeff Foxworthy
observes on TV, not every adult is as smart as a fifth grader. I'll
leave it to the reader to decide if this is bogus.

Uncle Ben
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 04:12 GMT
> >The difference in times is because of the difference in
> > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > problem.  But you are a smart guy;  can't you get a clue from what I
> > wrote that the velocity of light is not shown to be anisotropic?

> It is anisotropic if you insist that the front light front takes less
> transit time than the rear light front to arrive at the train
> observer.

> > I could restate the whole thing correctly, but you can see that the
> > point is that one way the distances are equal and the other way they
> > are not.

> According to the LT the distance for light to reach the track observer
> is L and the distance for light to reach the train observer is
> gamma*L. Therefore the transit time for the light fronts to reach M is
> L/c and the transit time for the light fronts to reach M' is gamma*L/
> c. Therefore both M and M' will see the strikes to be simultaneous but
> at different times.

> >The difference in times is because of the difference in
> > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in
> > distances is because of the motion of the train.

> This is a bogus assertion.

> Ken Seto- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on
the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not,
I'll state Einstein's version correctly this time.

You say that in Einstein's version, lightning strikes both ends of
the
train at the same time w.r.t. to the track, the light from the
flashes
arriving at an observer who was by the track at the center of the
train when the lightning flashed -- arriving to him at the same
time.

He asks what about the conductor on the train in the middle?  Will he
see the flashes at the same time?

No, he won't.  Because while the lightning flashes are sending light
towards the middle of the train, the train moves!  So the distance
the
rear flash has to go forward is greater w.r.t. the track and the
distrance the forward flash has to travel backward is shorter. So the
flashes are not simultaneous w.r.t. the train.

The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have
changed.

I think a fifth grader could understand this. But as Jeff Foxworthy
observes on TV, not every adult is as smart as a fifth grader. I'll
leave it to the reader to decide if this is bogus.

Uncle Ben
kenseto - 11 Nov 2008 14:37 GMT
> > >The difference in times is because of the difference in
> > > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> train when the lightning flashed -- arriving to him at the same
> time.

There are only two possibilities how the lightning strikes to occur:
1. They happened simultaneously.
2. They happened not simultaneously.
These possibilities is frame independent.
Therefore if Einstein stipulated that the strikes occurred
simulteously that means that they occurred simultaneous for both the
track and the train observer. Since SR claims that the speed of light
is isotropic in both M and M' frames and that both M and M' are at
equal distance from the strikes when they occur simultaneously.
Therefore M will see the strikes arrive at him simultaneously at time
of L/c and M' will see the strikes to arrive at him simultaneously at
time gamma*L/c.

> He asks what about the conductor on the train in the middle?  Will he
> see the flashes at the same time?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> distrance the forward flash has to travel backward is shorter. So the
> flashes are not simultaneous w.r.t. the train.

This bogus arguement violates the observed fact that the speed of
light is isotropic in the train. The train observer cannot move wrt
the light fronts in a way that will destroy the isotropy of the speed
of light. What this mean is that the perceived closing velocities
between the train observer and the light fronts is a false assertion.
If the track observer wants to predict what the train observer will
see he must use the LT. The LT calclations are as follows:
The distance light need to travel to reach the train observer from
both directions = gamma*L
Therefore the time for the light fronts to arrive at M' simultaneously
= gamma*L/c

I suggest that you read the paper "Improved Relativity Theory and
Doppler Theory of Gravity (DTG)" in my website:
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/index.htm

Ken Seto

> The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have
> changed.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Timothy Golden   BandTechnology.com - 11 Nov 2008 15:27 GMT
> > > >The difference in times is because of the difference in
> > > > distances, not differences in light speed. And the differences in
[quoted text clipped - 170 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -

In terms of arguments on isotropic space and isotropic radiation if we
accept the photon as a discrete particle then we've already destroyed
the isotropic radiator since its path is singular. Einstein has
already destroyed isotropic space and gotten away with it and so do
many others in modern day brane theories and string theories. The
point to me is to do so consistently rather than arbitrarily. When
this is done and spacetime is the resultant then a clean candidate
exists. I have done this in pure math form as mere arithmetic by
generalizing sign which you can find at my website http://www.BandTechnology.com
Arguing on Einsteins topology does not necessarily lead to sensible
results. The need to hold one context and work from it denies us the
freedom flop the context on its head even though the alternate context
has merit. I think this thinking may lead us to believe that the
curved space is optional.

- Tim

> > The speed of light is still c, but the distances it has to go have
> > changed.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -

In terms of arguments on isotropic space and isotropic radiation if we
accept the photon as a discrete particle then we've already destroyed
the isotropic radiator since its path is singular. Einstein has
already destroyed isotropic space and gotten away with it and so do
many others in modern day brane theories and string theories. The
point to me is to do so consistently rather than arbitrarily. When
this is done and spacetime is the resultant then a clean candidate
exists. I have done this in pure math form as mere arithmetic by
generalizing sign which you can find at my website http://www.BandTechnology.com
Arguing on Einsteins topology does not necessarily lead to sensible
results. The need to hold one context and work from it denies us the
freedom flop the context on its head even though the alternate context
has merit. I think this thinking may lead us to believe that the
curved space is optional.

- Tim
Uncle Ben - 11 Nov 2008 16:12 GMT
> > As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on
> > the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> simulteously that means that they occurred simultaneous for both the
> track and the train observer.

Einstein did stipulate that the lightning flashes occurred
simultaneously w.r.t. the track, but he also stipulated that the speed
of light be the same w.r.t. all inertial frames.  The point of his
thought experiment was to show that, therefore, the flashes were not
simultaneous w.r.t. the train.

You assert that "These possibilities is frame independent,"  but that
is simply to deny Einstein's claim of the RofS. He shows however that
the RofS follows from his postulates.  What you say is to assert Ken
Seto's Postulate.

The answer comes from the experiments. But it is not fair for you to
mis-state his claim.  He postulates that the speed of light each way
on the train is c w.r.t. the train.  Since the flashes do not meet at
the center of the train, he concludes that they were not simultaneous
w.r.t. the train. It follows logically.

You could be right and he wrong -- that is a test of the postulates
and is for the experimental evidence to decide -- but if you mis-state
his claim, you are merely mistaken.

BTW, if you ever come to understand what Einstein said, please explain
it to Androcles.

Uncle Ben
kenseto - 12 Nov 2008 14:37 GMT
> > > As I told you, I thought you were smart enough to use my argument on
> > > the problem Einstein stated, instead of the one I stated, but if not,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> simultaneously w.r.t. the track, but he also stipulated that the speed
> of light be the same w.r.t. all inertial frames.  

Yes he did stipulated that the speed of light is isotropic in the M
and M' frame. But he also made the contradictory stipulation that M'
is moving wrt the light fronts....he said that M' is rushing toward
the light front from the front c'=c+v and receding away from the light
front from the rear c"=c-v. That means that c'=/=c". That means that
the speed of light in the M' frame is not isotropic.

Ken Seto