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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / July 2008



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The Barnes & Noble Effect

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PD - 25 Jul 2008 23:00 GMT
Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
sci.physics.quantum full of cranks attempting to show that Heisenberg
was a nincompoop, a plagiarist, or a charlatan?

I submit that the simple answer is the Barnes & Noble Effect. There
are more books on the shelves having to do with Einstein, with a
layman's presentation of relativity, or that have an early chapter
that spends a good amount of time talking about Einstein. Einstein has
a lot of popular press. This is what angers cranks: the shelf-space.
They see a disproportionate amount of B&N linear inches, compared with
a remarkable lack of mention from their own chosen profession in the
same bookstore. (It's a bit harder to find, for example, laudatory
biographies of famous engineers, programmers, or tire salesman.)

Interestingly, physicists do not give Einstein the same
disproportionate attention that is seen in the B&N effect. Einstein is
just another luminary in a long list of names that include Gibbs,
Dirac, Feynman, Bardeen, Landau, Rutherford, and others. But you see,
those names don't occupy shelf-space at Barnes & Noble.

The only physicist of late that has gotten the same kind of attention
is Feynman, who made enormous contributions to quantum field theory.
So why doesn't he draw the same kind of fire? Here there is a
corollary to the Barnes & Noble Effect: The Head-Down Clause. Feynman
didn't try to make quantum field theory accessible and completely
understandable to the hobby reader. There are a couple of gentle
introductions, but nothing that gives the impression that "you too can
do the math here". This is where he parts from Einstein, and the fact
that his subject matter is still relatively inaccessible is his condom
against crackpottery.

PD
Sue... - 25 Jul 2008 23:19 GMT
> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> that his subject matter is still relatively inaccessible is his condom
> against crackpottery.

It might be because Feynman arguably authored
"The most sucessful theory ever", QED.

While Einstein's worshippers keep drawing attention
to an experiment (H&K) which fails to demonstrate:

<< Einstein's relativity principle, which states that:

   All inertial frames are totally equivalent for
    the performance of all physical experiments.

In other words, it is impossible to perform a
physical experiment which differentiates in
any fundamental sense between different inertial
frames. By definition, Newton's laws of motion
take the same form in all inertial frames.
Einstein generalized this result in his special
theory of relativity by asserting that all laws
of physics take the same form in all inertial
frames. >>
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node108.html

Sue...

> PD
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 01:35 GMT
> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
> sci.physics.quantum full of cranks attempting to show that Heisenberg
>  was a nincompoop, a plagiarist, or a charlatan?

Einstein would have been a frequent poster there.

I do not agree with you.
We still call it -The Twins Paradox-, and so far, I have not seen anyone
here, who clearly understood the problem.

That makes cranks reject it alltogether.

And time touches us all, that somehow, by travelling in a rocket, humans
could elude time and stay young, is something the masses can relate to.

Time is very important in our daily lives, and then Einstein comes along
and says time is not fixed, it is mallable.
How many times people do not think : "if only we could go back in time,
and undo some things ?"

I think my greatest challenge in life was to evntually read a book by
some genius physicist, that gave me an understanding of time.
Judging by the sales figures of "Brief History of Time", a lot of other
people must have had the same dream.

But I consider Stephen Hawking and Paul Davies as cranks. When Paul
Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
been revoked.

The difference between QMists and relativists is that the former are at
least honest : they say "we simply do not know" we perform the
calculations, and that's it.

Relativists claim to know, but their arguments do not hold water, so
that even the most uneducated layman can find the holes in it.

GR is not about time or gravitation, it is about inertia, influencing
clocks and shrinking objects. A clock is an inertiameter. Anyone that
does not come to that conclusion after studying GR, is a crank, as he
did not study GR, he parroted it.
Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.
The complexities of QM stem from the ineraction of the inertialess
uncertainty zone and the GR inertial world.

> There are a couple of gentle introductions, but nothing that gives
> the impression that "you too can do the math here". This is where he
> parts from Einstein, and the fact that his subject matter is still
> relatively inaccessible is his condom against crackpottery.

Calculations *against* crackpottery ? Or the ultimate disguise *of*
crackpottery, as in String Theory ?

Uwe Hayek.
Eric Gisse - 26 Jul 2008 06:50 GMT
> > Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> > draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
> > sci.physics.quantum full of cranks attempting to show that Heisenberg
> >  was a nincompoop, a plagiarist, or a charlatan?
>
> Einstein would have been a frequent poster there.

Why? Do you regard the majority of the population here as folks with
bachelors and doctorates in physics?

> I do not agree with you.
> We still call it -The Twins Paradox-, and so far, I have not seen anyone
> here, who clearly understood the problem.

Key words: "I have not seen". It is a creationist asking for evidence
for evolution who then ignores it.

> That makes cranks reject it alltogether.
>
> And time touches us all, that somehow, by travelling in a rocket, humans
> could elude time and stay young, is something the masses can relate to.

So could wrapping yourself with a Jupiter mass of material and
coasting along in a shell of gravitational time dilation for exterior
times measured in millenia.

> Time is very important in our daily lives, and then Einstein comes along
> and says time is not fixed, it is mallable.

In one direction - and it isn't "backwards".

> How many times people do not think : "if only we could go back in time,
> and undo some things ?"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Judging by the sales figures of "Brief History of Time", a lot of other
> people must have had the same dream.

DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

Thank you for proving Paul's point by referring _exactly_ to the same
type of publication that he was talking about. Tie that in with your
obvious crank attributes, and we have a textbook case of what he was
talking about!

> But I consider Stephen Hawking and Paul Davies as cranks. When Paul
> Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
> been revoked.

What's your PhD in?

Oh, sorry.

What's your bachelors in?

Oh, sorry.

You graduated high school, right? GED at least, I hope?

> The difference between QMists and relativists is that the former are at
> least honest : they say "we simply do not know" we perform the
> calculations, and that's it.

Yet both theories work exactly to spec. What does that tell you?

> Relativists claim to know, but their arguments do not hold water, so
> that even the most uneducated layman can find the holes in it.

Hint: Just because you do not understand the arguments does not mean
everyone else is as dense.

> GR is not about time or gravitation, it is about inertia, influencing
> clocks and shrinking objects. A clock is an inertiameter. Anyone that
> does not come to that conclusion after studying GR, is a crank, as he
> did not study GR, he parroted it.

Let's put aside the fact that what you wrote is high order stupidity
and pretend that it is worthy of meaningful discussion - which it
isn't.

How can GR NOT be about gravitation when that's all it explains?

How can a clock be an "inertiameter" when what a clock measures is
independent of the mass - or inertia, if you prefer - of the clock?

How can you make such broad claims about what GR is 'really about'
despite having no literature references or education in the subject?

> Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
> thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.

Sorry, that's f.cking stupid.

Man I tried to retain the illusion that what you have to say is worth
listening to but it was TOO f.cking HARD with your obvious
cluelessness.

> The complexities of QM stem from the ineraction of the inertialess
> uncertainty zone and the GR inertial world.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Uwe Hayek.
greysky - 26 Jul 2008 08:18 GMT
On Jul 25, 4:35 pm, Hayek <haye...@nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> PD wrote:
> > Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Einstein would have been a frequent poster there.

Why? Do you regard the majority of the population here as folks with
bachelors and doctorates in physics?

> I do not agree with you.
> We still call it -The Twins Paradox-, and so far, I have not seen anyone
> here, who clearly understood the problem.

Key words: "I have not seen". It is a creationist asking for evidence
for evolution who then ignores it.

> That makes cranks reject it alltogether.
>
> And time touches us all, that somehow, by travelling in a rocket, humans
> could elude time and stay young, is something the masses can relate to.

So could wrapping yourself with a Jupiter mass of material and
coasting along in a shell of gravitational time dilation for exterior
times measured in millenia.

> Time is very important in our daily lives, and then Einstein comes along
> and says time is not fixed, it is mallable.

In one direction - and it isn't "backwards".

> How many times people do not think : "if only we could go back in time,
> and undo some things ?"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Judging by the sales figures of "Brief History of Time", a lot of other
> people must have had the same dream.

DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

Thank you for proving Paul's point by referring _exactly_ to the same
type of publication that he was talking about. Tie that in with your
obvious crank attributes, and we have a textbook case of what he was
talking about!

> But I consider Stephen Hawking and Paul Davies as cranks. When Paul
> Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
> been revoked.

What's your PhD in?

Oh, sorry.

What's your bachelors in?

Oh, sorry.

You graduated high school, right? GED at least, I hope?

> The difference between QMists and relativists is that the former are at
> least honest : they say "we simply do not know" we perform the
> calculations, and that's it.

Yet both theories work exactly to spec. What does that tell you?

> Relativists claim to know, but their arguments do not hold water, so
> that even the most uneducated layman can find the holes in it.

Hint: Just because you do not understand the arguments does not mean
everyone else is as dense.

> GR is not about time or gravitation, it is about inertia, influencing
> clocks and shrinking objects. A clock is an inertiameter. Anyone that
> does not come to that conclusion after studying GR, is a crank, as he
> did not study GR, he parroted it.

Let's put aside the fact that what you wrote is high order stupidity
and pretend that it is worthy of meaningful discussion - which it
isn't.

How can GR NOT be about gravitation when that's all it explains?

How can a clock be an "inertiameter" when what a clock measures is
independent of the mass - or inertia, if you prefer - of the clock?

How can you make such broad claims about what GR is 'really about'
despite having no literature references or education in the subject?

> Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
> thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.

Sorry, that's f.cking stupid.

Man I tried to retain the illusion that what you have to say is worth
listening to but it was TOO f.cking HARD with your obvious
cluelessness.

> The complexities of QM stem from the ineraction of the inertialess
> uncertainty zone and the GR inertial world.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Uwe Hayek.

Uh, Eric, shouldn't you be out looking for a job instead of farting around
cluelessly here? Neither GR nor QM will help you to steal Spongebob's job
away from him at the Crusty Crab...

And as for PD's 'theory', I gotta wonder what Barnes and Noble he frequents.
In mine there are more books on the subject of quantum physics than there
are on relativity. As there should be. Perhaps my  bookseller is a former
physics student. He - or she- knows that whenever relativity butts heads
with quantum physics, relativity will always give way. The future of physics
is a quantum one.

Greysky
Dirk Van de moortel - 26 Jul 2008 09:48 GMT
greysky <greysky@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
 zdAik.31429$co7.16749@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com
> On Jul 25, 4:35 pm, Hayek <haye...@nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> PD wrote:
>>> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
>>> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
>>> sci.physics.quantum full of cranks attempting to show that Heisenberg
>>> was a nincompoop, a plagiarist, or a charlatan?

[re-inserted from OP]

>>> I submit that the simple answer is the Barnes & Noble Effect. There
>>> are more books on the shelves having to do with Einstein, with a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>> same bookstore. (It's a bit harder to find, for example, laudatory
>>> biographies of famous engineers, programmers, or tire salesman.)

[snip Hayek's usual crap]

> And as for PD's 'theory', I gotta wonder what Barnes and Noble he frequents.
> In mine there are more books on the subject of quantum physics than there
> are on relativity. As there should be. Perhaps my  bookseller is a former
> physics student.

Or perhaps you misunderstood.
B&N has VASTLTY more books on *Einstein* than it has on
any other *physicist*, and therefore relativity draws more cranks
than anything else.

Dirk Vdm
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 12:51 GMT
> [snip Hayek's usual crap]

And you still do not have a clue.

Common shape up, maybe you can still understand before you die.

It is not hard, I have drawn a map, with a big arrow on it, saying you
are here !

But it does not seem to work....

Uwe Hayek.
Eric Gisse - 26 Jul 2008 09:50 GMT
[...learn to quote...]

> Uh, Eric, shouldn't you be out looking for a job instead of farting around
> cluelessly here? Neither GR nor QM will help you to steal Spongebob's job
> away from him at the Crusty Crab...

Just because you were born before the TV was invented does not
validate your opinion that everything you see on TV is real.

> And as for PD's 'theory', I gotta wonder what Barnes and Noble he frequents.
> In mine there are more books on the subject of quantum physics than there
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Greysky
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 12:48 GMT
> Uh, Eric, shouldn't you be out looking for a job instead of farting around
> cluelessly here? Neither GR nor QM will help you to steal Spongebob's job
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> with quantum physics, relativity will always give way. The future of physics
> is a quantum one.

I beg to differ : so far GR wins !

There is still no quantum phenomenon that can measure GR field density
(I call it the inertial field) locally. If the field increases or
decreases, then ALL QM phenomena neatly obey !

GR is the master, and leaves you only some playground at Heisenberg
uncertainty conditions.

Uwe Hayek.

Signature

Als ik nu op dit moment geld transfereer [in België] naar een
andere rekening staat dat een uur later daar gecrediteerd.
-- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.

Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 12:41 GMT
>>> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
>>> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Why? Do you regard the majority of the population here as folks with
> bachelors and doctorates in physics?

No, but at least bachelors and doctorates who know the difference
between "here" and "there". "There" in this context refering to
"sci.physics.quantum", and as you maybe know, Einstein doubted the
probabilities and non-locality from QM. Some even claim that Eintein has
said "God does not play dice".

Beware of doctorates : in Belgium, the secretary of the exchequer, Freya
 Van Den Bossche, doctorate holder of some liberal social
specialisation,  could not answer to the question when asked what the
square root of 25 was.

>> I do not agree with you.
>> We still call it -The Twins Paradox-, and so far, I have not seen anyone
>> here, who clearly understood the problem.
>
> Key words: "I have not seen". It is a creationist asking for evidence
> for evolution who then ignores it.

I would rather say, that I still see flaws in creationism.
Altough : evolution would have stopped most of the fools posting here.

>> That makes cranks reject it alltogether.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> In one direction - and it isn't "backwards".

Oh, you gotten that far : congratulations !

Last sunday I visited a "Lady" with a law education, but who has
developed a general intrest in science. I explained my viewpoints, and
she accused me of being a "Newtonist", because "everybody knows" that
"since Einstein" time can go "Backwards".

>> How many times people do not think : "if only we could go back in time,
>> and undo some things ?"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> obvious crank attributes, and we have a textbook case of what he was
> talking about!

How would you know ? Large family, one brain cell ?

>> But I consider Stephen Hawking and Paul Davies as cranks. When Paul
>> Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Oh, sorry.

I see a Phd and a Bachelor for what it stands for : indoctrination.
It destroys your ability to be creative.

I suppose you use arguments like that all the time : "I have a
PhD/Bachelor so I am right ?"

> You graduated high school, right? GED at least, I hope?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Yet both theories work exactly to spec. What does that tell you?

I let Heisenberg tell you, and it so happens that I agree with him.

The physicist may be satisfied when he has the mathematical scheme and
knows how to use for the interpretation of the experiments. But he has
to speak about his results also to nonÐphysicists who will not be
satisfied unless some explanation is given in plain language. Even for
the physicist the description in plain language will be the criterion of
the degree of understanding that has been reached. -- Werner Heisenberg
in Physics and Philosophy http://www-groups.dcs.st-

And I also agree with Lord Kelvin :
"It seems to me that the test of "Do we or do we not understand a
particular point in physics" is, "Can we make a mechanical model of
it:" "  -  lord Kelvin

>> Relativists claim to know, but their arguments do not hold water, so
>> that even the most uneducated layman can find the holes in it.
>
> Hint: Just because you do not understand the arguments does not mean
> everyone else is as dense.

Oh Yes. You have a PhD, I presume ?

>> GR is not about time or gravitation, it is about inertia, influencing
>> clocks and shrinking objects. A clock is an inertiameter. Anyone that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and pretend that it is worthy of meaningful discussion - which it
> isn't.

I rest my case. Your about as intelligent as Mathematica.

> How can GR NOT be about gravitation when that's all it explains?

You ever heard about the equivalence principle and the
Eötvös experiment ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B6tv%C3%B6s_experiment

> How can a clock be an "inertiameter" when what a clock measures is
> independent of the mass - or inertia, if you prefer - of the clock?

What you are saying is equivalent to saying that the apple falls from
the tree because the apple has inherent gravity.

You might not now it, but you are constantly proving my point.

The equivalence principle, mach's principle, and Newtons Bucket, all
show that inertia is not an inherent property of mass, but is caused by
an external field. How does water know that it should rise against the
wall of the bucket when the bucket rotates ? If inertia is a property of
mass, why does'nt it always creep up the wall of the bucket ?
Stop calculating, and learning silly calculating rules by heart and see
if you can solve, or think about this really weird phenomenon. The water
in the bucket "knows" the position of the stars.

So

> How can you make such broad claims about what GR is 'really about'
> despite having no literature references or education in the subject?

Huh ?
Some 8 years ago, I scanned these pages of "Gravitation", exactly
because I constantly had these discussion with "learn by heart" idiots :
http://www.xs4all.nl/~notime/inert/gravp543.html
It comes from this book :
http://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Physics-Charles-W-Misner/dp/0716703440/ref=pd_
bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217071718&sr=1-1


The pages I scanned are the basis of the Stanford experiment, now running :

http://einstein.stanford.edu

>> Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
>> thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.
>
> Sorry, that's f.cking stupid.

Your reaction certainly is.

> Man I tried to retain the illusion that what you have to say is worth
> listening to but it was TOO f.cking HARD with your obvious
> cluelessness.

It is actually outright simple.
But hey : when I say gravitation is just a gradient of the inertial
field, which is fully in accord with the Eötvös experiment, then all of
your phd education suddenly abandons you ?

A simple gradient ? You can even use it in parking lots to see that it
drains well everywhere ?

I am actually glad that I missed formal indoctrination, pardon
education, thanks to CFS.

Uwe Hayek.

>> The complexities of QM stem from the ineraction of the inertialess
>> uncertainty zone and the GR inertial world.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> Uwe Hayek.

Signature

Als ik nu op dit moment geld transfereer [in België] naar een
andere rekening staat dat een uur latr daar gecrediteerd.
-- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.

Eric Gisse - 26 Jul 2008 13:10 GMT
> >>> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> >>> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> probabilities and non-locality from QM. Some even claim that Eintein has
> said "God does not play dice".

On the other hand, Einstein helped with the fundamental development of
QM in addition to creating some very interesting tests that QM managed
to pass.

Then you look at the newsgroups....name one meaningful advance brought
from the sci.physics.* hierarchy from a person who wasn't already
educated in the field. All I see is a population dominated by losers
and failures who have been spouting nonsense and bullshit for 10+
years.

> Beware of doctorates : in Belgium, the secretary of the exchequer, Freya
>   Van Den Bossche, doctorate holder of some liberal social
> specialisation,  could not answer to the question when asked what the
> square root of 25 was.

That's why I said PHYSICS, not liberal arts nonsense / hippie
bullshit / underwater basketweaving.

[...]

> Last sunday I visited a "Lady" with a law education, but who has
> developed a general intrest in science. I explained my viewpoints, and
> she accused me of being a "Newtonist", because "everybody knows" that
> "since Einstein" time can go "Backwards".

Who cares what those uneducated in the field think? She's wrong as
hell.

> >> How many times people do not think : "if only we could go back in time,
> >> and undo some things ?"
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> How would you know ? Large family, one brain cell ?

An ability to read for comprehension.

> >> But I consider Stephen Hawking and Paul Davies as cranks. When Paul
> >> Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I see a Phd and a Bachelor for what it stands for : indoctrination.
> It destroys your ability to be creative.

A frequent argument on this newsgroup that is never backed by anything
more than opinion. Learning the laws that are experimentally found to
govern our universe does not limit the ability to be creative - it
simply determines what is fiction and non-fiction.

> I suppose you use arguments like that all the time : "I have a
> PhD/Bachelor so I am right ?"

Nope. An education does not mean you are right - but when you have no
education and no arguments, who the hell do you think you are kidding
other than yourself?

[...]

> > Let's put aside the fact that what you wrote is high order stupidity
> > and pretend that it is worthy of meaningful discussion - which it
> > isn't.
>
> I rest my case. Your about as intelligent as Mathematica.

I could settle for that.

> > How can GR NOT be about gravitation when that's all it explains?
>
> You ever heard about the equivalence principle and the
> Eötvös experiment ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B6tv%C3%B6s_experiment

....which states that acceleration and gravitation are locally
indistinguishable effects. Try again.

> > How can a clock be an "inertiameter" when what a clock measures is
> > independent of the mass - or inertia, if you prefer - of the clock?
>
> What you are saying is equivalent to saying that the apple falls from
> the tree because the apple has inherent gravity.

The apple falls from the tree because of the planet surrounding it.
The mass of the apple is irrelevant - equivalence principle, remember?

> You might not now it, but you are constantly proving my point.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> if you can solve, or think about this really weird phenomenon. The water
> in the bucket "knows" the position of the stars.

The water doesn't know - it travels along a geodesic until the bucket
gets in the way. It doesn't creep up the sides of the bucket because
the bucket is in the way and making the water rotate. Centrifugal
force holds it in place - an artifact from the fact the bucket is
rotating.

You need nothing more than a universe with just the bucket, water, and
something to swing it. No "external field" crap, nothing.

> So
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> because I constantly had these discussion with "learn by heart" idiots :http://www.xs4all.nl/~notime/inert/gravp543.html
> It comes from this book :http://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Physics-Charles-W-Misner/dp/0716703...

Yea - I have that book and I have read that before. GR, regardless, is
not about inertia. The best you can claim is that the metric
corresponds to this "external field" since the metric is determined by
the matter content of the entire universe.

> The pages I scanned are the basis of the Stanford experiment, now running :
>
> http://einstein.stanford.edu

You are greeaaatly confused if you think the Lense-Thirring effect is
in any way related to Mach's principle.

> >> Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
> >> thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> field, which is fully in accord with the Eötvös experiment, then all of
> your phd education suddenly abandons you ?

I then laugh at you because you have *no* idea what you are talking
about. Vector theories of gravitation [the gradient of a scalar
is...hint: starts with "vector"] are excluded by observation. There's
more to gravitation than the equivalence principle.

> A simple gradient ? You can even use it in parking lots to see that it
> drains well everywhere ?

An example deliberately simplified to exclude the big picture.

> I am actually glad that I missed formal indoctrination, pardon
> education, thanks to CFS.

PSR 1913+16, bullet cluster, cosmology at large, frame dragging, black
holes. All of these topics - by observation - exclude vector theories
of gravity.

[...]
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 14:20 GMT
>>>>> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
>>>>> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> QM in addition to creating some very interesting tests that QM managed
> to pass.

Yes, but it was not Einstein's intention. He hoped that QM would fail EPR.

> Then you look at the newsgroups....name one meaningful advance brought
> from the sci.physics.* hierarchy from a person who wasn't already
> educated in the field. All I see is a population dominated by losers
> and failures who have been spouting nonsense and bullshit for 10+
> years.

>> Beware of doctorates : in Belgium, the secretary of the exchequer, Freya
>>   Van Den Bossche, doctorate holder of some liberal social
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That's why I said PHYSICS, not liberal arts nonsense / hippie
> bullshit / underwater basketweaving.

Just to give you a general idea of the inflation academics is undergoing.

I remember a discussion with a guy just doctoring in Physics, I was
invited at the University of Brussels, because of some internet
discussion. I t seemed that they just had discovered mach's principle
and its importance for and in GR. So we discuss some thought experiment
and we increase the mass of the universe, at that point he answers,
"then inertia should decrease". He was about to get his doctorate in
PHYSICS. But at least, he knew a little bit of the direction I was
pointing at.

> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Who cares what those uneducated in the field think? She's wrong as
> hell.

I know. That is why I regret that you put me in "her" camp.

>>>> How many times people do not think : "if only we could go back in time,
>>>> and undo some things ?"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> An ability to read for comprehension.

I will be the judge of that.

>>>> But I consider Stephen Hawking and Paul Davies as cranks. When Paul
>>>> Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> govern our universe does not limit the ability to be creative - it
> simply determines what is fiction and non-fiction.

>> I suppose you use arguments like that all the time : "I have a
>> PhD/Bachelor so I am right ?"
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> ....which states that acceleration and gravitation are locally
> indistinguishable effects. Try again.
And acceleration is ruled by inertia.
You try again.

>>> How can a clock be an "inertiameter" when what a clock measures is
>>> independent of the mass - or inertia, if you prefer - of the clock?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The apple falls from the tree because of the planet surrounding it.
> The mass of the apple is irrelevant - equivalence principle, remember?

I knew that. The problem is that it is the same for the apple's inertia.
But there it is a little bit more difficult : the apple's inertia stems
from the surrounding masses in the Universe. Or do you want to quit
believing in GR now ?

>> You might not now it, but you are constantly proving my point.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> force holds it in place - an artifact from the fact the bucket is
> rotating.

You learned your lesson by heart. And what creates the gesodesic ? The
masses of the universe.

> You need nothing more than a universe with just the bucket, water, and
> something to swing it. No "external field" crap, nothing.

It is the same field as gravitation, but without gradient, it is the
onyly content of flat space. Is there inertia in flat spacetime ?
Well, how did it get there, and what does it do to clocks ?
That it makes no difference locally, I fully understand, but it is STILL
THERE. Suppose you double the field strength in that region of flat
spacetime, by doubling the masses of the surrounding universe, what
would a clock do ? Exactly run twice as slow ! THAT IS WHY I claim that
a clock is just an inertiameter.

>> So
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Yea - I have that book and I have read that before. GR, regardless, is
> not about inertia.

Well, they must have added these pages for nothing. And early in the
book there is ample reference to Lorands eotvos's experiment.

> The best you can claim is that the metric
> corresponds to this "external field" since the metric is determined by
> the matter content of the entire universe.

You know the facts, now draw the conclusion.

>> The pages I scanned are the basis of the Stanford experiment, now running :
>>
>> http://einstein.stanford.edu
>
> You are greeaaatly confused if you think the Lense-Thirring effect is
> in any way related to Mach's principle.

Lense Thirring is not the only effect Gravity Probe B was intended to
measure. To establish teh effects Frame dragging was the main intention.
The universe is just a bigger version of this frame dragging : it is THE
preferential frame. It seems to you that you are utterly clueless.

>>>> Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
>>>> thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> is...hint: starts with "vector"] are excluded by observation. There's
> more to gravitation than the equivalence principle.

Well, you should not try harder before you understand this.

>> A simple gradient ? You can even use it in parking lots to see that it
>> drains well everywhere ?
>
> An example deliberately simplified to exclude the big picture.

Try to walk before you run. Where is the gravitation at the center of
the Earth ? A clock runs slowest there ! Just it is surrounded by more
masses. If it is not gravitation that is stronger there, then what is it
 ? Gravitation without a gradient, is an inertial field.

And now LOOK AT A CLOCK : how would you mesasure inertia ? By trowing a
mass back and forth : that is exactly what a clock does.

>> I am actually glad that I missed formal indoctrination, pardon
>> education, thanks to CFS.
>
> PSR 1913+16, bullet cluster, cosmology at large, frame dragging, black
> holes. All of these topics - by observation - exclude vector theories
> of gravity.

Another mantra.

Actually, my views are confirmed by the calculations : at a certain
distance from the Black Hole, the orbital trajectories we are so
familiar with from our solar system, rapidly break down : the inertia
generated by the black hole becomes greater than the inertia coming from
the universe.

That is what makes our solar system work : large inertia form the
universe, against the small gravitational/inertial field from the sun.

Indeed, you are right : you cannot solve the black hole problem with
simple vector theories, but locally, in the weak and flat spacetime
regions, you can. That is why Keplerian and Newtonian laws worked for
our solar system, already somewhat breaking down for Mercury.

By some carefull simplification you can understand what happens.

You simply proved, that you to haven't got a clue what all these tensor
really mean. Never mind, nobody does. That is why another approach is
needed.

Inertia is the missing link between GR and QM.

If you got a better idea, I will be glad to read it.

Uwe Hayek.
Sue... - 26 Jul 2008 14:37 GMT
> > Try to walk before you run. Where is the gravitation at the center of
> the Earth ? A clock runs slowest there ! Just it is surrounded by more
> masses. If it is not gravitation that is stronger there, then what is it
>   ? Gravitation without a gradient, is an inertial field.

Can you cite an experiment like Pound-Rebka-Snider to support
this notion?

The Earth's gravitaional force, due to inhomogenity,
would be greater just below the surface would it not?

Sue...

> Uwe Hayek.
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 14:56 GMT
>>> Try to walk before you run. Where is the gravitation at the center of
>> the Earth ? A clock runs slowest there ! Just it is surrounded by more
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Sue...

Not exactly Sue. Just inside a hollow sphere the field strength would be
anywhere the same. I assume the Earth to be homogenous, causing the
field to be at is highest at the center. It is presumed that the Earth
has a nickel core, and that would still place the highest density at the
center. Anyway, it is not important for the argument in se, unless of
course there would be some very wild inhomogenity, displacing the
mathematical center of mass way of the spherical center.

Uwe Hayek.

>> Uwe Hayek.

Signature

Als ik nu op dit moment geld transfereer [in België] naar een
andere rekening staat dat een uur later daar gecrediteerd.
-- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.

Sue... - 26 Jul 2008 15:24 GMT
> >>> Try to walk before you run. Where is the gravitation at the center of
> >> the Earth ? A clock runs slowest there ! Just it is surrounded by more
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> anywhere the same. I assume the Earth to be homogenous, causing the
> field to be at is highest at the center.

100 percent of the planet is beneith your feet on the surface.
That would seem, to me, the maximum anisotropy the
planet could cause to a Machian gravito-inertial field.

> It is presumed that the Earth
> has a nickel core, and that would still place the highest density at the
> center. Anyway, it is not important for the argument in se, unless of
> course there would be some very wild inhomogenity, displacing the
> mathematical center of mass way of the spherical center.

*We* can assume a homogenous planet. Someone digging a hole
'till his bathroom scale starts to show he is loosing weight
won't make that assumption.

Are there any clock observations from the
Challenger-Deep?  It takes a bit less
digging to get there. :-)

Sue...

> Uwe Hayek.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> andere rekening staat dat een uur later daar gecrediteerd.
> -- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.
Eric Gisse - 26 Jul 2008 15:14 GMT
> >>>>> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> >>>>> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Yes, but it was not Einstein's intention. He hoped that QM would fail EPR.

The intentions are irrelevant. Though to my knowledge Einstein did not
contribute directly to the _theory_ of QM past his work on the
photoelectric effect, he made incredible bounds in making it
_accepted_ and _testable_. EPR is one example, photoelectric effect is
another, and a lesser known one is showing how quantum mechanics
applied to solids can [more] properly account for the measured heat
capacities of solids.

The cranks in this newsgroup are nowhere near Einstein's level.

> > Then you look at the newsgroups....name one meaningful advance brought
> > from the sci.physics.* hierarchy from a person who wasn't already
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> PHYSICS. But at least, he knew a little bit of the direction I was
> pointing at.

If you increase the mass of the universe...inertia should...decrease?
Yea that makes no sense.

How about an operational definition of inertia? I'm assuming inertial
mass, which gets linked to gravitational mass through the equivalence
principle.

[...]

> >>> How can GR NOT be about gravitation when that's all it explains?
> >> You ever heard about the equivalence principle and the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> And acceleration is ruled by inertia.
> You try again.

Except the mass - thus inertia - of a particle has no relation to the
rest of the universe. The universe could be vacuum or a lattice of
black holes - the mass of a particle isn't going to change just
because there is more 'stuff' out there. The only thing the universe
controls is the /acceleration/, but that isn't the point of Mach's
principle.

> >>> How can a clock be an "inertiameter" when what a clock measures is
> >>> independent of the mass - or inertia, if you prefer - of the clock?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> from the surrounding masses in the Universe. Or do you want to quit
> believing in GR now ?

Inertia is _resistance_ to acceleration. Explain how what you just
said makes any sense in that context.

> >> You might not now it, but you are constantly proving my point.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> You learned your lesson by heart. And what creates the gesodesic ? The
> masses of the universe.

Except that isn't inertia! Inertia is _resistance to acceleration_,
not the acceleration itself. Plus a geodesic is the path the particle
would take were it traveling freely, so the only "source" of inertia
in that case would be the matter itself and the bucket.

This is in no way Mach's principle.

> > You need nothing more than a universe with just the bucket, water, and
> > something to swing it. No "external field" crap, nothing.
>
> It is the same field as gravitation, but without gradient, it is the
> onyly content of flat space. Is there inertia in flat spacetime ?

This is why I think you don't know anything about general relativity.
You think in terms of Newtonian gravitation where the field is the
gradient of the potential. There is no gradient in general relativity
- no scalar, no gradient. Just tensor equations.

> Well, how did it get there, and what does it do to clocks ?

Nothing. Time dilation is independent of clock composition.

> That it makes no difference locally, I fully understand, but it is STILL
> THERE. Suppose you double the field strength in that region of flat
> spacetime, by doubling the masses of the surrounding universe, what
> would a clock do ?

Nothing. There is no gravitation in flat spacetime.

> Exactly run twice as slow ! THAT IS WHY I claim that
> a clock is just an inertiameter.

Sure - _gravitational_ time dilation is a function of the mass of the
body. It, however, is not linear with respect to mass.

Your usage of "inertiameter" is inconsistent with the way inertia is
actually defined. Call it something else - but not inertia.

> >> So
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Well, they must have added these pages for nothing. And early in the
> book there is ample reference to Lorands eotvos's experiment.

Its' called "context". A thousand page book has room to explain how
the theory was developed.

> > The best you can claim is that the metric
> > corresponds to this "external field" since the metric is determined by
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Lense Thirring is not the only effect Gravity Probe B was intended to
> measure. To establish teh effects Frame dragging was the main intention.

Sure - geodetic precession was the other effect.

> The universe is just a bigger version of this frame dragging : it is THE
> preferential frame. It seems to you that you are utterly clueless.

You are recasting "inertia" for a bunch of other roles that it has no
business playing. Looks like I found another aspergers sufferer.

[snip rest, interest lost]
Dirk Van de moortel - 26 Jul 2008 15:19 GMT
Eric Gisse <jowr.pi@gmail.com> wrote in message
 94b56f1d-5400-460c-a9d2-adab9f5cf27c@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com

[snip usual Hayek crap]

> The intentions are irrelevant. Though to my knowledge Einstein did not
> contribute directly to the _theory_ of QM past his work on the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The cranks in this newsgroup are nowhere near Einstein's level.

If you allow me this slight amendment:

The physicists in this newsgroup are nowhere near Einstein's level,
so imagine where the cranks are.

Dirk Vdm
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 16:35 GMT
> [snip rest, interest lost]

Mutual, discussion closed.

Neat, this behaviour of neo-dogmatic academists.

Uwe Hayek.

Signature

Als ik nu op dit moment geld transfereer [in België] naar een
andere rekening staat dat een uur later daar gecrediteerd.
-- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.

Eric Gisse - 26 Jul 2008 16:38 GMT
> > [snip rest, interest lost]
>
> Mutual, discussion closed.
>
> Neat, this behaviour of neo-dogmatic academists.

Perfect way out of you explaining why your definition and usage of
inertia conflicts with the _actual_ definition and usage of inertia.

> Uwe Hayek.
>
> --
> Als ik nu op dit moment geld transfereer [in België] naar een
> andere rekening staat dat een uur later daar gecrediteerd.
> -- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.
greysky - 27 Jul 2008 03:43 GMT
On Jul 26, 7:35 am, Hayek <haye...@nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Eric Gisse wrote:
> > [snip rest, interest lost]
>
> Mutual, discussion closed.
>
> Neat, this behaviour of neo-dogmatic academists.

Perfect way out of you explaining why your definition and usage of
inertia conflicts with the _actual_ definition and usage of inertia.

+++++++++++++++++

No one knows a full working definition of inertia that is both universally
accepted and correct. Heck, when they finally get around to measuring the
inertial mass of antimatter and see that it is negative, and have *no*
extant working theory to explain how antimatter can have both a positive
gravitational mass and a negative inertial mass at the same time, at least
the honest scientists will realize just how ignorant and in the dark they
really are. Of course, I had a working theory since the 1980's but I shelved
it to work on more interesting things...

Greysky

www.allocations.cc
Learn how to build a FTL radio.
Jerry - 27 Jul 2008 04:48 GMT
> No one knows a full working definition of inertia that is both universally
> accepted and correct. Heck, when they finally get around to measuring the
> inertial mass of antimatter and see that it is negative,

You didn't answer me the last time I asked this question:
Photons are their own antiparticle, yet they fall "down"
in a gravitational field by exactly the amount predicted
by GR.

Why should I believe that antimatter falls "up" if matter
falls "down" and photons fall "down"?

> and have *no*
> extant working theory to explain how antimatter can have both a positive
> gravitational mass and a negative inertial mass at the same time, at least
> the honest scientists will realize just how ignorant and in the dark they
> really are. Of course, I had a working theory since the 1980's but I shelved
> it to work on more interesting things...

Jerry
Jerry - 27 Jul 2008 04:57 GMT
> No one knows a full working definition of inertia that is both universally
> accepted and correct. Heck, when they finally get around to measuring the
> inertial mass of antimatter and see that it is negative, and have *no*
> extant working theory to explain how antimatter can have both a positive
> gravitational mass and a negative inertial mass at the same time,

Serious typo here.

Don't you mean, "positive inertial mass and a negative
gravitational mass" rather than the other way around?

Negative inertial masses are already excluded by such
observations as positrons curving in the opposite direction from
electrons in a magnetic field...

Jerry
greysky - 27 Jul 2008 06:44 GMT
On Jul 26, 9:43 pm, "greysky" <grey...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> No one knows a full working definition of inertia that is both universally
> accepted and correct. Heck, when they finally get around to measuring the
> inertial mass of antimatter and see that it is negative, and have *no*
> extant working theory to explain how antimatter can have both a positive
> gravitational mass and a negative inertial mass at the same time,

Serious typo here.

Don't you mean, "positive inertial mass and a negative
gravitational mass" rather than the other way around?

Yes, my bad.  I meant a negative gravitational mass and a positive inertial
mass.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Negative inertial masses are already excluded by such
observations as positrons curving in the opposite direction from
electrons in a magnetic field...

Jerry

Well... though the generalized equivalence principle does have as a solution
matter that has a negative inertial mass and a positive gravitational mass,
I rule it out because it would violate conservation of energy because it
would self - accelerate to lightspeed. It would be handy stuff to have
however, as it would render internal combustion engines instantly obsolete
as a means of transportation.

Greysky
Eric Gisse - 27 Jul 2008 05:48 GMT
> On Jul 26, 7:35 am, Hayek <haye...@nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> www.allocations.cc
> Learn how to build a FTL radio.

The only thing different between matter and antimatter is charge - a
quantum number. The components - quarks - that constitute the overall
mass of the particle are the same as a proton. You have no reason to
think antimatter falls up.

Then again anyone who thinks they have a FTL radio is not terribly
concerned about actual evidence.
greysky - 27 Jul 2008 07:06 GMT
On Jul 26, 6:43 pm, "greysky" <grey...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Eric Gisse" <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> www.allocations.cc
> Learn how to build a FTL radio.

The only thing different between matter and antimatter is charge - a
quantum number. The components - quarks - that constitute the overall
mass of the particle are the same as a proton. You have no reason to
think antimatter falls up.

Then again anyone who thinks they have a FTL radio is not terribly
concerned about actual evidence.

===========

Poor Eric. While he has been buisy looking for work, I've been a buisy litle
bee. It occured to me around six months ago how wonderful it would be if I
could hook up my laptop computer to the DSL connection at my home via a FTL
connection. It at first seemed too complicated to mimic the handshaking that
goes on both ways in a normal wireless connection, but then I had a thought:
why not  go past the modem and emulate the signal pathway at the USB
connection? In effect, make a wireless superluminal USB 2.0 hub that I could
plug anything into? It still wasn't easy, but I had a working prototype
inside 3 months. I'm still ironing out the bugs in the system, but it does
work at wireless G speeds (mostly). I get a kick out of taking my Viao out
for a stroll, and chatter freely in public with everyone else doing exactly
the same thing - only while they are connected to the wireless LAN, I am
connected to my home computer miles away. I was at a meeting last week and
the lady next to me remarked how slow my connection was compared to hers -
she was connected at wireless N speeds. I just smiled and told her I was
having trouble with my machine. I didn't tell her I was connected to my home
machine over a thousand miles away...
I really think this application of superluminal information tansfer is going
to be even more important than voice communications once I speed things up a
bit...

Greysky
Eric Gisse - 27 Jul 2008 07:12 GMT
> On Jul 26, 6:43 pm, "greysky" <grey...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> Greysky

Yet all I have is your word that you aren't talking out your a.s. You
have no independent verification of what you say, even though what you
have right now would make you very rich.

Funny how people here are always sitting on discoveries that would
make them very rich, famous, or both.
greysky - 27 Jul 2008 08:57 GMT
On Jul 26, 10:06 pm, "greysky" <grey...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Eric Gisse" <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> Greysky

Yet all I have is your word that you aren't talking out your a.s. You
have no independent verification of what you say, even though what you
have right now would make you very rich.

Funny how people here are always sitting on discoveries that would
make them very rich, famous, or both.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You seem hung up on "rich". Why? Lucre has never been a motivator for me. I
have enough money to do what I want, pretty much. Even as it is, I am pretty
tied down by my possessions more than I would like.  I know a few rich men -
one almost a billionair who made his money buying chains of commercial radio
and tv stations and it would be easy for me to get further funding from this
guy for a percentage. But then things would begin to spiral out of my
control and I wouldn't be a happy camper anymore. I also would be as
miserable a huiman being as this guy is... that's another thing I see in
rich people. They are amongst the most miserable souls God ever created.
Maybe my hangup is that I'm not smart enough to figure out how to be both
happy and rich at the same time.

But you are also very right. I can't keep sitting on my device forever. I
eventualy need to make a decision and come clean. You see, I am also a bit
of a history buff, and I too get upset when I hear about all the marvelous /
wierd inventions that people have been talking about for the last hundred
years, and knowing they are lost treasures:  Coral Castle, where Ed
Leedskalnin found a way to levitate blocks of stone weighing many tons, but
the secret has been lost. Or another example being Hans Coler and his free
energy device. True? False? We will never know because these and many other
secrets discovered by inventors looking to make a buck were taken to their
graves when their plans fell apart. All because of money... If I die with my
'secret' I am confident that it will be a very long time before someone else
rediscovers it, if ever. Even I conceede that would be a crime against
humanity. The field of quantum mechanics would especially suffer. Not so
much relativity, but superluminal action within a quantum framework makes it
[QM] almost a conceptual science - something Bohr would enjoy knowing about
if he were still alive. Feynman would no longer be able to call the results
of the double slit experiment  a 'mystery', and so it goes.

Oh what the hell, I'll say this much at least: when you look at the double
slit [n-slit experiment] in operation, you are witnessing the heart of
superluminal communication happening. Others try using calcite crystals to
create linked photons in EPR type setups to make a superluminal
communicator, but that way will never work because the spin states or other
quantum operators can never be controlled to be able to make a signalling
device that doesn't rely on stochastic randomess. But it is a signpost
showing nature does allow instant signalling of a sort. Others approach the
problem through quantum tunneling. This is a dead end as well, unless you
can figure out a way to make a very long tunnel. Though my approach is
unique, it does have a familial relation to those old methods. They are
related in the same manner a man is related to a microbe.

Another thing my research has led me to develop is a very startling
discovery concerning what most people call wormholes. Common thought is that
if they can be created they are impractical  because it will take large
amounts of exotic matter to enlarge them and to keep them open. My
superluminal pipeline, the thing that makes FTL possible, is somewhat
analogous to a wormhole. I have discovered that far from using huge amounts
of wierd energies to enlarge and sustain a 'pipeline / wormhole' it instead
takes Nothing at all to create these things, and the closer you can get to
'pure nothing' the larger and more stable they become. Within a sutiably
biased Casimir shield, they literally generate in huge numbers when
conditions are right. If my FTL pipeline is a form of stable wormhole, then
it is, with a bit of effort, within our ability set to create and maintain
them right now - exotic matter is unnecessary to create the negative energy
state..  Indeed, for the past 8 years, I've been studying the properties of
stable pipelines and characterizing them, and steadily learning about what
exactly they are and how they operate. More and more, I find I can apply
what other physicists are theorizing about wormholes almost directly to FTL
pipelines. It's really exciting and heady stuff!   At this point I'm just
smart enough to recognize this as a jumping off point into string theory,
but that's about it.

At the very least, I'll probably put a clause into my Last Will and
Testament to release the complete plans and all subsequent devices generated
by them to the public domain - which means of course, no one will be able to
patent them and control the technology. It'll be a free-for-all I am glad I
wont be a part of.

Of course, if I do decide to do that, it means you're going to have to wait
a bit before you see your 'proof'.....

Greysky

www.allocations.cc
Learn how to build a FTL radio.
Sue... - 26 Jul 2008 14:22 GMT
> You need nothing more than a universe with just the bucket, water, and
> something to swing it. No "external field" crap, nothing.

<<   Already Newton recognized that the
law of  inertia is unsatisfactory
in a context so far unmentioned in this
exposition, namely that it gives no
real cause for the special physical
position of the states of motion of the
inertial frames relative to all other
states of motion. It makes the observable
material bodies responsible for the
gravitational behaviour of a material
point, yet indicates no material cause
for the inertial behaviour of the material
point but devises the cause for it
(absolute space or inertial ether). This
is not logically inadmissible although
it is unsatisfactory. For this reason
E. Mach demanded a modification of the
law of inertia in the sense that the
inertia should be interpreted as an
acceleration resistance of the bodies
against one another and not against "space".
This interpretation governs the expectation
that accelerated bodies have concordant
accelerating action in the same
sense on other bodies (acceleration induction).
This interpretation is even more
plausible according to general relativity
which eliminates the distinction between
inertial and gravitational effects.
It amounts to stipulating that, apart
from the arbitrariness governed by the
free choice of coordinates, the
gm v -field shall be completely determined
by the matter. Mach?'s stipulation is favoured
in general relativity by the circumstance
that acceleration induction in accordance
with the gravitational field equations really
exists, although of such slight intensity
that direct detection by mechanical experiments
is out of the question. >>
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.html
Hayek - 26 Jul 2008 14:50 GMT
>> You need nothing more than a universe with just the bucket, water, and
>> something to swing it. No "external field" crap, nothing.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> with the gravitational field equations really
> exists, although of such slight intensity

> that direct detection by mechanical experiments
> is out of the question. >>

And that is where Gravity Probe B comes in.
http://einstein.stanford.edu

Also "Gravitation-aka the phone book" mentions this on page 548 :
http://www.xs4all.nl/~notime/inert/gravp548.html

"When the Foucault pendulum is located in imagination at the center of
the earth or in actuality at the North pole, the order of the magnitude
of the expected drag is 5*EE-14, too small to allow detection, let alone
by measurement, by any device so far built-but perhaps measurable by
gyroscopes now under construction."

Uwe Hayek.

> http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.html

Signature

Als ik nu op dit moment geld transfereer [in België] naar een
andere rekening staat dat een uur later daar gecrediteerd.
-- Boutros Gali, realiteitsdeskundige.

PD - 28 Jul 2008 20:16 GMT
> I see a Phd and a Bachelor for what it stands for : indoctrination.
> It destroys your ability to be creative.

I beg to differ. A good chunk of what goes on in the training of a PhD
is how to buck conventional wisdom. Creativity is encouraged, but
along with that comes some serious training on how to check whether
your creative idea is *right*, because creativity for creativity's
sake is useless in science. Schizos and art majors are both creative,
but that isn't science.

If you will examine the list of Nobel Prizes in physics, you will see
that they are completely dominated by those who bucked the
conventional wisdom of their time. You will also notice the great care
they took in checking that their crazy ideas were right. You will also
notice that their PhD training (often at the hands of previous Nobel
laureates) prepared them precisely for that convention bucking.

If you turn your back on PhD training, you are not only doing so out
of a misplaced fear of what you will lose in the process, but you are
turning your back on the training on how to check the validity of your
work, which you will not be able to do as well without this training.

> I suppose you use arguments like that all the time : "I have a
> PhD/Bachelor so I am right ?"
harry - 28 Jul 2008 10:19 GMT
>> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity draws
>> more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
>> sci.physics.quantum full of cranks attempting to show that Heisenberg
>>  was a nincompoop, a plagiarist, or a charlatan?
>
> Einstein would have been a frequent poster there.

I doubt that very much.

> I do not agree with you.
> We still call it -The Twins Paradox-, and so far, I have not seen anyone
> here, who clearly understood the problem.
> That makes cranks reject it alltogether.

Perhaps you didn't look well enough. And there are many paradoxes. What do
you think of Zeno's paradox? Paradoxes are like puzzles, they are not
necessarily detrimental for a theory.

> And time touches us all, that somehow, by travelling in a rocket, humans
> could elude time and stay young, is something the masses can relate to.

:-)

> Time is very important in our daily lives, and then Einstein comes along
> and says time is not fixed, it is mallable.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Davies explains the twin parodox in "About Time", his PhD should have
> been revoked.

I didn't read it. What did he claim?

> The difference between QMists and relativists is that the former are at
> least honest : they say "we simply do not know" we perform the
> calculations, and that's it.

Indeed!

> Relativists claim to know, but their arguments do not hold water, so
> that even the most uneducated layman can find the holes in it.

It depends, there are all kinds of flavours of explanations. I have no
difficulty with Lorentz's explanation. But I don't know a good explanation
of QM.

> GR is not about time or gravitation, it is about inertia, influencing
> clocks and shrinking objects. A clock is an inertiameter.

Ah we're coming back to your explanation. ;-)

> Anyone that
> does not come to that conclusion after studying GR, is a crank, as he
> did not study GR, he parroted it.
> Once you know GR is about inertia, then let inertia go to zero in some
> thought experiments, and naturally arrive at uncertainty and some QM.

That sounds a little too easy. ;-)

> The complexities of QM stem from the ineraction of the inertialess
> uncertainty zone and the GR inertial world.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> parts from Einstein, and the fact that his subject matter is still
>> relatively inaccessible is his condom against crackpottery.

Indeed, also GRT is less attacked with crackpottery.

Harald
Jon Slaughter - 26 Jul 2008 10:08 GMT
> Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> that his subject matter is still relatively inaccessible is his condom
> against crackpottery.

Nice observation. You are probably right but I do tend to see a lot of "QM"
books there too.  I think Einstein's theory's, on the surface, are pretty
easy to grasp and this is why it's a popular choice not only to write about
but for cranks to talk about.

You can do away with B & N but you'll still have the cranks.
PD - 26 Jul 2008 16:01 GMT
> > Over time, several people have wondered why it is that relativity
> > draws more cranks than, say, quantum theory. Why isn't there a
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> You can do away with B & N but you'll still have the cranks.

I was referring more to books about Einstein than about relativity.
It's harder to find books about physicists who drove quantum mechanics
than it is to find books about quantum mechanics. It's not the
*subject matter* that is the draw for cranks, it is the iconography
about the *people* that draws them.

PD
Jon Slaughter - 27 Jul 2008 05:21 GMT
On Jul 26, 4:08 am, "Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaugh...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
> "PD" <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> You can do away with B & N but you'll still have the cranks.

I was referring more to books about Einstein than about relativity.
It's harder to find books about physicists who drove quantum mechanics
than it is to find books about quantum mechanics. It's not the
*subject matter* that is the draw for cranks, it is the iconography
about the *people* that draws them.

---

I have to disagree somewhat. Its the theory that draws most for the most
part because it offers something to try and show that is false so they can
become famous.  SR is very simple and most cranks believe that FLT is
possible(and want to believe it because it opens up all kinds of
possibilities).

Quantum mechanics is a bit harder to deal with and work in and usually
involves advanced math and stuff like the schrodinger equation which most
cranks have no idea about.  SR involves, for the most part, just simple
algebra.

SR is must more accessible than QM, has very strong implications, and most
importantly can make the crank a genius if he proves it wrong. This is why
cranks latch on too it.
 
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