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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / July 2009



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On the Physical Basis of Special Relativity

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Aetherist - 03 Jul 2009 22:17 GMT
Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
medium configured as a Michelson setup.

               o___________________________________|  
          Source<-------------  d  ---------------->Reflector

In any mundane medium, the speed of the wave [c] is fixed by it's properties
(modulus and density), and is independent of any motion of a source.  
Therefore, in the case of a round trip, traveled from any moving emitting
source from a co-moving reflector separated by a 'fixed' distance [d]
<see figure above>, the distances traveled can be described as follows.  For
the 'path' taken in the direction of motion the time required to complete
the trip is:

                 t =  d/(c - v) + d/(c + v)                       ... {1}

This is strictly due to the so-called Galilean transformations.  We note that
when v = c the time it takes for the wave to get to the reflector is infinite,
that is, it WILL never catch the reflector which is moving away just as fast
as the wave can propagate.  Now doing some simple algebra the round trip, we
get:

                       d(c + v) + d(c - v)
                  t = --------------------                        ... {2}
                         (c - v)(c + v)

which resolves to:

                              2d
                     t = --------------                           ... {3}
                         c[1 - (v/c)^2]

Thus the actual distance [L], or path of the wave for the round trip becomes:

                              2d
                     L = -------------                            ... {4}
                         [1 - (v/c)^2]

Now if we evaluate the orientation of the assembly at 90 degrees relative to
the motion we get the time as:

                             2d
                 t = ------------------                           ... {5}
                     Sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]c

This comes about from the fact that the actual path taken by the wave is not
d, but the hypotenuse of a triangle illustrated as follows:
                             ___
                             / \
                            / | \
                           /  |  \
                          c   |   c
                         /    d    \
                        /     |     \  
                       o___v__|___v__o

And the actual distance as:

                            2d          
                 L = -----------------                            ... {6}
                     Sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]

Which is different from the parallel direction by a factor of exactly:

                       Sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2) ['gamma']                ... {7}

This was the expected difference which would have resulted in the fringes
predicted to be seen in the MMX.

The lack of which is why, in 1889 Fitzgearld and in 1895 Lorentz suggested that
matter contracted by this factor along the axis of motion when moving through
the medium, since this results in both round trip paths becoming of equal length.

Now with the Lorentz/Fitzgerald contraction we find that for the local (moving),
system

                              dx    L
                          c = -- = --                            ... {8}
                              dt   dt

and the defintions of dt as,

                                2d
                        ------------------
                        Sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]c

Then,

                            2d           Sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]c  
                 c = ----------------- x ------------------      ... {9}
                     Sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]           2d

or simply,

                              c = c

Now it should be clear to anyone that gamma disappears and for any given
local value of d and the definitions,

                              c = dx/dt

and

                              dx = 2d

and

                               dt = 2d/c  

the wave speed c will be measured as the same value regardless of v, as long
as v < c...

If however the actual round trip paths are L (Eq. 6) and not 2d (the local path)
then the actual travel times are expressed by Eq. 5, and not simply local time
2d/c and all paths MUST travel per Eq. 6, one can set up local coordinates
based upon measured speed c and a local time t' BUT the relationship of different
lcoal times at different speeds v leads direct back to Lorentz's 1904 paper known
as LET.

From the above one can get out the posulates that for the functional basis
of Special Relativity.  All physical processes would be constrained to behave
in a manner consistent with the tenets of SR.  However, the very existence of
observable time distortions (time dilation) between moving inertial frames can
be considered strong evidence that light's speed is universal invariance and an
underlying medium is what regulates this behavior and give rise to its very
existence.
Androcles - 03 Jul 2009 22:58 GMT
> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
> medium configured as a Michelson setup.

No, lrt us consider laser beams which are not wave omni-directational
emitting wave
or even omnidirectional.
Good word, "lrt". Two out of three isn't bad. Invent it all by yourself, did
you?
I didn't care much for "directaional", though.
doug - 04 Jul 2009 00:20 GMT
> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
> underlying medium is what regulates this behavior and give rise to its very
> existence.  

If, of course, you ignore the century of experimental evidence which
shows that your aether is not present.  But keep your delusions.
Aetherist - 04 Jul 2009 02:04 GMT
{snip...}

>If, of course, you ignore the century of experimental evidence which
>shows that your aether is not present.  But keep your delusions.

Please provide one specific example of experimental evidence that
you think is being ignored.
doug - 04 Jul 2009 07:32 GMT
> {snip...}
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Please provide one specific example of experimental evidence that
> you think is being ignored.

You have ignored all of it. Pick any one that you think you can
refute.
Spirit of Truth - 04 Jul 2009 07:47 GMT
>> {snip...}
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You have ignored all of it. Pick any one that you think you can
> refute.

Why, you have shown an inability to confront any questionable
conditions of SR?

Spirit of Truth
Surfer - 05 Jul 2009 03:45 GMT
>> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
>> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
>If, of course, you ignore the century of experimental evidence which
>shows that your aether is not present.  But keep your delusions.

There are no experiments that show that.
doug - 05 Jul 2009 03:53 GMT
>>>Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
>>>medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
>
> There are no experiments that show that.

That is an unsupported assertion, much like the unsupported assertions
you have been making about Miller, Cahill etc.
Spirit of Truth - 05 Jul 2009 04:19 GMT
>>>>Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
>>>>medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 145 lines]
> That is an unsupported assertion, much like the unsupported assertions
> you have been making about Miller, Cahill etc.

That is an unsupported assertion, much like the rest of you unsupported
assertions, boy.

Spirit of Truth
doug - 05 Jul 2009 04:33 GMT
>>>>>Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
>>>>>medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 149 lines]
> That is an unsupported assertion, much like the rest of you unsupported
> assertions, boy.

You are either lying or just showing your ignorance. Why do you want
to look stupid in public?

> Spirit of Truth
Dono. - 04 Jul 2009 02:57 GMT
> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> This is strictly due to the so-called Galilean transformations.

No, it isn't . It is due to another reason but you obviously don't
know why this is so. Einstein started with this calculation in his
paper in the derivation of the LORENTZ transforms, so this should give
you a hint that it CANNOT be based on the Galilei transforms.

<rest of your nonsense snipped as irrelevant>
Dirk Van de moortel - 04 Jul 2009 12:15 GMT
Aetherist <TheAetherist@best.net> wrote in message
 pvss45dg8enlnq70fjqjsv338qf0gjet6u@4ax.com
> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> This is strictly due to the so-called Galilean transformations.  

Transformation between *which* coordinate systems?

Dirk Vdm
Aetherist - 04 Jul 2009 16:38 GMT
>Aetherist <TheAetherist@best.net> wrote in message
>  pvss45dg8enlnq70fjqjsv338qf0gjet6u@4ax.com
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Transformation between *which* coordinate systems?

What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  You csnnot use this methodology
to determine the actual rest frame as Lorentz concluded in 1904.  However we
can find the rest frame, its called the CMBR...

>Dirk Vdm
Dono. - 04 Jul 2009 16:46 GMT
> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  You csnnot use this methodology
> to determine the actual rest frame as Lorentz concluded in 1904.  However we
> can find the rest frame, its called the CMBR...

No, it isn't. Physicists use the FRAME IN WHICH CMB RADIATION IS
ISOTROPIC as a convenient "preferred frame". None is such an idiot as
a claim that "we can find the rest frame"
Aetherist - 04 Jul 2009 16:48 GMT
>> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  You csnnot use this methodology
>> to determine the actual rest frame as Lorentz concluded in 1904.  However we
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>ISOTROPIC as a convenient "preferred frame". None is such an idiot as
>a claim that "we can find the rest frame"

denial isn't just a river in Africa :)
Dono. - 04 Jul 2009 17:12 GMT
> >> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  You csnnot use this methodology
> >> to determine the actual rest frame as Lorentz concluded in 1904.  However we
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> denial isn't just a river in Africa :)

No denial, just correcting your misconceptions.
Aetherist - 04 Jul 2009 17:45 GMT
>> >> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  You csnnot use this methodology
>> >> to determine the actual rest frame as Lorentz concluded in 1904.  However we
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> No denial, just correcting your misconceptions.

Question, would you expect an aether media to be devoid of all background
noise, i.e. to be completely silent?  It's not possible in any mundane
mediums they all have a background white noise.  In an aether that noise
would EM radiation.
Dirk Van de moortel - 04 Jul 2009 18:30 GMT
Aetherist <TheAetherist@best.net> wrote in message
 6htu45t0ah4n34lhs1a2fkv7iab4mn1b82@4ax.com

>> Aetherist <TheAetherist@best.net> wrote in message
>>  pvss45dg8enlnq70fjqjsv338qf0gjet6u@4ax.com
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  

I'd like you to explain how *exactly* Galilean transformations
are used to get to equation {1}.

Dirk Vdm
Aetherist - 04 Jul 2009 19:52 GMT
>> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.  
>
>I'd like you to explain how *exactly* Galilean transformations
>are used to get to equation {1}.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UMDurS6HSl4C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=michelson+morl
ey+Galilean&source=bl&ots=kKx2WMYIMW&sig=fkhvctuUrGa6Mjh0dmEoIO-s5Z4&hl=en&ei=da
NPSon2FY6CswPIyuiqDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

Dirk Van de moortel - 05 Jul 2009 12:22 GMT
Aetherist <TheAetherist@best.net> wrote in message
 089v45dmb6flcfjefnm1eald62s6u6aii6@4ax.com

>>> What Equation 9 says is, it doesn't matter.
>>
>> I'd like you to explain how *exactly* Galilean transformations
>> are used to get to equation {1}.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=UMDurS6HSl4C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=michelson+morl
ey+Galilean&source=bl&ots=kKx2WMYIMW&sig=fkhvctuUrGa6Mjh0dmEoIO-s5Z4&hl=en&ei=da
NPSon2FY6CswPIyuiqDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

Page 18: "The exercises ask you to confirm that..."
Page 21: Exercise 1(b).

Dirk Vdm
Mike - 05 Jul 2009 17:56 GMT
On Jul 5, 7:22 am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Aetherist <TheAether...@best.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Dirk Vdm

Dirk in action. Don't miss it:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.jokes/msg/abd6fadea0a31456?hl=en

Mike
Dirk Van de moortel - 05 Jul 2009 18:00 GMT
Mike <eleatis@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
 f7d170fd-ae11-4282-b1da-c4c5566c4c70@h8g2000yqm.googlegroups.com
> On Jul 5, 7:22 am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
> <dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.jokes/msg/abd6fadea0a31456?hl=en

Right:
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Stuff/Euthanasia.html
Thanks for the publicity :-)

Dirk Vdm
Mike - 05 Jul 2009 18:05 GMT
On Jul 5, 1:00 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoor...@nospAm.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mike <elea...@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>  http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Stuff/Euthanasia.html
> Thanks for the publicity :-)

Here he gives lessos about the future of DVDs:

http://groups.google.com/group/nl.hobby.video/msg/fb9a6c19ece4beca?hl=en

hahahahahahahahahaha

Poor lad

Mike

> Dirk Vdm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
harry - 07 Jul 2009 13:37 GMT
> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> This is strictly due to the so-called Galilean transformations.

Instead, this has NOTHING to do with any coordinate system
transformations...

> We note that
> when v = c the time it takes for the wave to get to the reflector is infinite,
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> matter contracted by this factor along the axis of motion when moving through
> the medium, since this results in both round trip paths becoming of equal length.

Fitzgerald based his argument on Heaviside's wave theory and the
hypothesis of the wave nature of matter.

> Now with the Lorentz/Fitzgerald contraction we find that for the local (moving),
> system
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> underlying medium is what regulates this behavior and give rise to its very
> existence.  

I doubt that you will convince anyone with those arguments; much
better arguments were provided one century ago, in particular by
Langevin.
Nevertheless, your overview may be useful for those who don't
understand the MMX - and there are many lurking at this group who
don't have a clue. :-)

Harald
Aetherist - 07 Jul 2009 16:03 GMT
>> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
>> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Instead, this has NOTHING to do with any coordinate system
> transformations...

Does it not if we cannot assume distance (d) is immutable?

>> We note that
>> when v = c the time it takes for the wave to get to the reflector is infinite,
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> Fitzgerald based his argument on Heaviside's wave theory and the
> hypothesis of the wave nature of matter.

And he was correct, wavefronts do distort for moving sources in that manner.

>> Now with the Lorentz/Fitzgerald contraction we find that for the local (moving),
>> system
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>better arguments were provided one century ago, in particular by
>Langevin.

And, they were what???

>Nevertheless, your overview may be useful for those who don't
>understand the MMX - and there are many lurking at this group who
>don't have a clue. :-)

Do you agree that it is the dilation of 'time' that proves the existence
of the medium?
>Harald
harry - 08 Jul 2009 09:59 GMT
> >> Lrt us consider wave omni-directaional emitting wave source moving in a
> >> medium configured as a Michelson setup.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Does it not if we cannot assume distance (d) is immutable?

OK, you are right that there is a relationship so that I exaggerated;
nevertheless, your phrasing puts physics on its head. A coordinate
transformation is a human invention or description of relative
measurements; a description cannot CAUSE physical effects.
Perhaps you meant that Michelson assumed the validity of the Galilean
transformation, and that is certainly correct.

[..]

> >> The lack of which is why, in 1889 Fitzgearld and in 1895 Lorentz suggested that
> >> matter contracted by this factor along the axis of motion when moving through
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> And he was correct, wavefronts do distort for moving sources in that manner.

You made it sound like an ad-hoc problem fix.

[..]

> >> From the above one can get out the posulates that for the functional basis
> >> of Special Relativity.  All physical processes would be constrained to behave
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> And, they were what???

Too much to give a summary here. In a nutshell, he emphasized the
absolute effects of SRT which add to those of classical physics. I can
send you the paper if you like (if you can read French; 2.5 Mb PDF).

> >Nevertheless, your overview may be useful for those who don't
> >understand the MMX - and there are many lurking at this group who
> >don't have a clue. :-)
>
> Do you agree that it is the dilation of 'time' that proves the existence
> of the medium?

I would say that there is an accumulation of evidence. However, there
are a few loose ends (as always).

Regards,
Harald
Aetherist - 08 Jul 2009 17:42 GMT
>> {snip...}
>> >>                   t =  d/(c - v) + d/(c + v)                       ... {1}
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Perhaps you meant that Michelson assumed the validity of the Galilean
>transformation, and that is certainly correct.

And you are right, it was very poorly phrased but I meant exactly what
you said, that Michelson assumed the validity of the Galilean transforms.

>[..]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>You made it sound like an ad-hoc problem fix.

No, is wasn't and never was (from an actual physical behavior perspective) ad hoc!
It is EXACTLY how equi-potentials distribute themselve for moving sources (like
waves from a moving acoustical source).  If you want to see the details and that
the gamma factor results, see Part 3,  Chapter 8 (Acoustics), Section 9 "Radiation
from a Simple Source  in a Moving Medium" of Coddon & Odishaw's "Handbook of
Physics", McGraw-Hill Second Edition 1967...

>[..]
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>absolute effects of SRT which add to those of classical physics. I can
>send you the paper if you like (if you can read French; 2.5 Mb PDF).

Unfortunately, I cannot read French :(

>> >Nevertheless, your overview may be useful for those who don't
>> >understand the MMX - and there are many lurking at this group who
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I would say that there is an accumulation of evidence. However, there
>are a few loose ends (as always).

The whole thrust of this article was to show that, given (per Eq. 9)
that c 'appears' a.k.a. can be measured to have the same value in any
moving system, and therefore one can assume that their (the local
measured) distances are 'at rest' while in actuality, the physical
distances that MUST be traversed by light (or any field process) is
actually increasing with speed by 1/gamma and thus the 'actual' time
it takes to make a transit also increases by the same amount.  This
means that in any moving system a light clock ticks at a slower rate
as speed icreases.  This effect is NOT symmetrical!  The slower one
moves wrt the underlying aether rest frame, the faster the their clock
ticks...  Time dilation is a function of speed wrt the isotropic CMBR
frmae, moving faster makes clocks run slower.  A distinct prediction
of this model (and LET) is fact.  There is never a twin paradox here,
move faster, time goes by slower...  

Regards,
 
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