What is BaT, exactly?
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The Ghost In The Machine - 10 Apr 2005 21:00 GMT OK, I'm getting slightly annoyed. I want to know the postulates to Henri's theory, the Ballistic Light Theory (BaT for short). My guess (and that's all it is) is that they are the following:
[1] Light speed relative to its generator is c. For purposes of this discussion a generator can be construed as either a thermal source -- a "hot black body" such as an incandescent light filament or a hot piece of metal during forging -- or an electronic state transition producing light (such are very commonly used in the electronics industry and in fluorescent tubes), and the value of c = 3 * 10^8 m/s. (The actual value as currently measured is about 0.069% less.) Mirrors reflect the light ballistically. [2] The space metric is the standard Euclidean one. It does not involve the measurement of time. [3] Gravitation will affect lightspeed as the light falls into the Earth. [4] For all points in space, time is the same value (or can be construed to be the same value), regardless of the observer's motion. A corollary is that all clocks will remain synchronized regardless of motion, if clocks are undamaged (and clocks are damaged by spaceflight). [5] There is no aether, luminiferous or otherwise. [6] The "moonshot" experiment is defined here as two spacecraft going to the moon, one dropping off a relay and the other speeding on with a more or less known velocity, say 10^-4 c. The "moonshot" experiment will show results of about 1.3 * 10^-4 s difference (as the Moon is about 1.3 light-seconds distant from Earth, give or take). [7] If three observers O, A, and B are such that A moves with velocity u relative to O, and B moves with velocity v relative to O, then B moves with velocity v-u relative to A.
And then there's the postulate that isn't really about the theory, but about all experiments pertaining to lightspeed:
[8] All experiments ever performed fully support the BaT. (That's right, every last one. Presumably this includes such notables as Hafele & Keating's 1971 results.)
For its part SR/GR theory, which could be construed as some form of aether theory if one squints a lot (and the lay press characterization regarding Gravity Probe B does not help as it talks about "twisting space-time" and such), has the following postulates (or perhaps derivatives):
[1] Lightspeed is c relative to the generator. *It also is c relative to anyone receiving it.* Mirrors still reflect the light ballistically, however, though a moving or accelerated mirror might have a slightly different notion of the energy of what it's reflecting than the naive inertial observer might expect. [2] The time/space metric is the Minkowski metric. This metric can be defined as (x-x0)^2 + (y-y0)^2 + (z-z0)^2 - c^2*(t-t0)^2. This metric is constant regardless of motion. (Not sure regarding gravitational tensors here.) [3] A gravitational field bends the space-time metric (this is why it's an aether theory, apparently). A rotating mass will *twist* the space-time metric (this is what Gravity Probe B is testing, though the result has already been validated by observation of existing satellites). [4] The Lorentz transform (x_A,y_A,z_A,t_A) = (x_O,y_O,z_O,t_O) LT is formulated:
x_A = (x_O - v * t_O) * g y_A = y_O z_A = z_O t_A = (t_O - v * x_O/c^2) * g
where g = 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). Corollaries to this transform include shrinking rods (though the exact amount of shrinkage depends on the measurement method!), faster-ticking clocks, and much confusion. :-) An important corollary is that a sphere expanding at lightspeed from an arbitrary point will, after this transform is applied, become a sphere expanding at the exact same speed from a slightly different point. [5] A body that is moving has more mass, as observed by an inertial observer, than a body at rest. E^2 = m^2c^4 + p^2c^2 at all times. For light quanta, E^2 = p^2c^2. [6] Gravitation does not affect lightspeed, although it does affect light energy. It would take me a little work to figure out exactly how much, though http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Acceleration.html can assist in that effort. I would also surmise that a lightsource in a gravitationally warped space will still expand spherically. [7] If three observers O, A, and B are such that A moves with velocity u relative to O, and B moves with velocity v relative to O, then B moves with velocity (v-u)/(1-uv/c^2) relative to A.
and of course
[8] All experiments ever performed fully support SR/GR.
So...have I characterized this issue correctly?
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net It's still legal to go .sigless.
Bilge - 11 Apr 2005 07:08 GMT The Ghost In The Machine:
>OK, I'm getting slightly annoyed. I want to know the postulates >to Henri's theory, the Ballistic Light Theory (BaT for short). Why? It's only a theory in sense that the name contains the word ``theory'' and there is some writing below it. If referred to an episode of sesame street as a theory, you'd have something that made more sense than henri could, even with help.
Harry - 11 Apr 2005 09:29 GMT > OK, I'm getting slightly annoyed. I want to know the postulates > to Henri's theory, the Ballistic Light Theory (BaT for short). > My guess (and that's all it is) is that they are the following: SNIP
Hi Ghost, I'll let Henry reply about his version of BaT. Instead I comment on a glitch about SRT that is quite common and the cause of much error:
> For its part SR/GR theory, which could be construed as > some form of aether theory if one squints a lot (and the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > [1] Lightspeed is c relative to the generator. > *It also is c relative to anyone receiving it.* Not so, lightspeed is c relative to the chosen frame of reference!
And there is a subtility: "light speed" is simply defined as the outcome of a measurement protocol. IOW, light speed is only measured to be c relative to the generator or the receiver when the generator is at rest in the observer's chosen frame of reference (the lab, or the ECI frame,.or whatever), and "light speed" refers to what reference instruments show that are calibrated according to standard convention.
> Mirrors still reflect the light ballistically, No. See above. SNIP
Oh, and a few more comments:
> [5] A body that is moving has more mass, as observed by an inertial > observer, than a body at rest. E^2 = m^2c^4 + p^2c^2 at all times. > For light quanta, E^2 = p^2c^2. Hint: here you mixed up two different definitions, that of dynamic mass ("relativistic mass") and rest mass ("invariant mass"). Dynamic mass increases with speed while your equations refer to rest mass.
> [6] Gravitation does not affect lightspeed It does not affect a *local* measurement of lightspeed.
SNIP
> [7] If three observers O, A, and B are such that A moves with velocity > u relative to O, and B moves with velocity v relative to O, then > B moves with velocity (v-u)/(1-uv/c^2) relative to A. As long as you realise that with "observer" you mean reference system.
> and of course > > [8] All experiments ever performed fully support SR/GR. That's a too bold statement as some data are not well explained and some unrepeated experiments did not fully support SRT/GRT.
> So...have I characterized this issue correctly? Almost.
Cheers, Harald
Bilge - 13 Apr 2005 07:41 GMT Harry:
>And there is a subtility: "light speed" is simply defined as the outcome of >a measurement protocol. Be serious. Special relativity is a geometric theory. The line plotted for dx/dt = tanh(A) = 1 has no more significance than the line plotted for dx/dz = tan(A) = 1. Both are just lines in a plane defined by two spacetime axes which have a slope of 1.
You keep saying that you understand the physics in relativity, but you continue to prove that you don't. The conversion from a dimensionless quantity tanh(A) = 1 into 3 x 10^8 m/sec is no different than converting tan(A) = 1 to 3 x 10^8 nm/ft.
Harry - 14 Apr 2005 11:38 GMT > Harry: > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Be serious. I'm surprised that you didn't know the above. I'll be more specific as it may be useful for Ghost:
"If at the point A of space there is a clock, an observer at A can determine the time values of events in the immediate proximity of A by finding the positions of the hands which are simultaneous with these events. [...] In agreement with experience we further assume the quantity 2AB/(t'A-tA)=c to be a universal constant--the velocity of light in empty space". - Einstein 1905.
Harald
shuba - 14 Apr 2005 22:48 GMT Harald wrote:
> > Harry: > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > be a universal constant--the velocity of light in empty space". - Einstein > 1905. If that quote from Einstein were the entire content of what light speed means in special relativity, no one would be interested in the subject a century later, and Harry would have to find an alternative set of educators to bash and a different theory to misrepresent.
The important idea of what special relativity says about the definition of light speed is as follows. If Maxwell's equations are correct, then the speed of light is the single invariant speed allowed for by the principle of relativity. Unfortunately for dishonest Harry, that brings the discussion right back to the realm of geometry, since invariance and symmetry are geometric concepts.
---Tim Shuba---
Bilge - 15 Apr 2005 05:35 GMT Harry:
>> Harry: >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I'm surprised that you didn't know the above. I'll be more specific as it I'm surprised you confuse a pedagogical description with the theoretical underpinning. Well, not that surprised. So much for your understanding of the theory.
Harry - 18 Apr 2005 11:15 GMT > Harry: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm surprised you confuse a pedagogical description with the > theoretical underpinning. I call a definition a definition. That's all. Goodbye.
Harald
> Well, not that surprised. So much > for your understanding of the theory. Henri Wilson - 18 Apr 2005 12:06 GMT >OK, I'm getting slightly annoyed. I want to know the postulates >to Henri's theory, the Ballistic Light Theory (BaT for short). [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > >So...have I characterized this issue correctly? Not bad for you, Ghost.
You omitted the bit about an instantaneous universe. That can be simulated using an infinitie grid of synched clocks. TIME measurements are made by the most adjacent clock and analysed later.
Thus event times do not have to be corrected for communication speed.
According to ballistic principles, Einstein's clock synch definition becomes a method to absolutely synch clocks (in flat gravity) and define universal simultaneity.
HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
The Ghost In The Machine - 19 Apr 2005 14:00 GMT In sci.physics.relativity, H@..(Henri Wilson) <H@> wrote on Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:06:24 GMT <co47615j0d2f4v0gjov2prdqeq72ic2gk6@4ax.com>:
>>OK, I'm getting slightly annoyed. I want to know the postulates >>to Henri's theory, the Ballistic Light Theory (BaT for short). [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > You omitted the bit about an instantaneous universe. The instantaneous universe is (AFAICT) merely a method by which one can set the clocks.
Briefly: assume a "Lattice Universe" and assign a center-point. Measure the distances precisely, using light. The clocks then can be set appropriately; a clock 1 light-minute away would read a flash from the center clock at 10:01 AM, if the center clock sent the flash at 10:00 AM.
This also works to some extent in SR.
> That can be simulated using an infinitie grid of synched clocks. TIME > measurements are made by the most adjacent clock and analysed later. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > becomes a method to absolutely synch clocks (in flat gravity) and > define universal simultaneity. AIUI, SR and BaT significantly differ regarding whether two lightflashes situated some distance apart will flash at the same time to both a stationary and a moving observer.
Not that the effect is that much; a car moving 30 m/s (67 mph) with two lights 300 km apart (on tall towers to compensate for the Earth's curvature) would see the following:
(-150000 , 0) -> (-150000.00000000075, +5.000000000000025 * 10^-11) (+150000 , 0) -> (+150000.00000000075, -5.000000000000025 * 10^-11)
> HW. > www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm > > Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. > The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net It's still legal to go .sigless.
Henri Wilson - 20 Apr 2005 08:08 GMT >In sci.physics.relativity, H@..(Henri Wilson) ><H@> [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] >(-150000 , 0) -> (-150000.00000000075, +5.000000000000025 * 10^-11) >(+150000 , 0) -> (+150000.00000000075, -5.000000000000025 * 10^-11) Ghost, in an instantaneous universe, all observers are equipped with an infinite array of presynched clocks. The nearest clock to any event registers the timing of that event. Information is forwarded to the grid owner and correlated later.
If one observer subsequently moves wrt another, both their grids remain in absolute synch because we know that clocks don't PHYSICALLY change when given a large push, don't we Ghost. So the nearest clock in each grid will agree on the time of any single event irrespective of any relative movement. Note: the fact that an instantaneous universe can be simulated doesn't imply that external information can be acquired instantly. The speed of communication places a limit. However, it DOES make possible the timing of events anywhere on a universal scale.
HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 20 Apr 2005 12:45 GMT > Ghost, in an instantaneous universe, all observers are equipped with an > infinite array of presynched clocks. The nearest clock to any event registers > the timing of that event. Information is forwarded to the grid owner and > correlated later. So the GPS-coordinate system with its coordinated time is an example of such an "instantaneous universe".
> If one observer subsequently moves wrt another, both their grids remain in > absolute synch because we know that clocks don't PHYSICALLY change when given a > large push, don't we Ghost. So the nearest clock in each grid will agree on the > time of any single event irrespective of any relative movement. All observers can obviously agree on the GPS-time of an event.
> Note: the fact that an instantaneous universe can be simulated doesn't imply > that external information can be acquired instantly. The speed of communication > places a limit. > However, it DOES make possible the timing of events anywhere on a universal > scale. The GPS-coordinated time can in principle be extended to all universe which DOES make possible the timing of events anywhere on a universal scale.
Or you can obviously define another frame of reference with coordinated time and call this your "instantaneous universe". The possibilities are infinite and arbitrary.
So what? Do you think that defining a specific frame of reference with a specific coordinated time - and call it "the instantaneous universe" - can make time as such absolute?
Remember that we know for certain that moving clocks running at proper rate do NOT stay in synch with GPS-time. Which proves that time is NOT absolute.
The time that has physical significance - and thus the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - is the local time shown by local clocks. The processes of nature run according to their own local time. They don't give a damn about the time shown by coordinate clocks in some arbitrary "instantaneous universe".
So when you are boiling your eggs, you better use your local watch on your wall, and not the coordinate clocks of some arbitrarily chosen "instant universe".
Paul
Henri Wilson - 21 Apr 2005 05:55 GMT >> Ghost, in an instantaneous universe, all observers are equipped with an >> infinite array of presynched clocks. The nearest clock to any event registers [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So the GPS-coordinate system with its coordinated time is >an example of such an "instantaneous universe". The clocks in my grid are connected by rigid rods. There are all mutually at rest. You always want to unnecessarily complicate things, Paul.
>> If one observer subsequently moves wrt another, both their grids remain in >> absolute synch because we know that clocks don't PHYSICALLY change when given a >> large push, don't we Ghost. So the nearest clock in each grid will agree on the >> time of any single event irrespective of any relative movement. > >All observers can obviously agree on the GPS-time of an event. If communication travel time is corrected out.
>> Note: the fact that an instantaneous universe can be simulated doesn't imply >> that external information can be acquired instantly. The speed of communication [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >be extended to all universe which DOES make possible >the timing of events anywhere on a universal scale. Why would you want a system with moving orbiting clocks when you can have one with clocks at rest?
>Or you can obviously define another frame of reference >with coordinated time and call this your "instantaneous [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >with a specific coordinated time - and call it "the instantaneous >universe" - can make time as such absolute? Not absolute, UNIVERSAL. Simultaneity is also universal.
>Remember that we know for certain that moving clocks >running at proper rate do NOT stay in synch with GPS-time. >Which proves that time is NOT absolute. Very funny Paul. If you give a clock a push, does it speed up or slow down?
>The time that has physical significance - and thus >the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >shown by coordinate clocks in some arbitrary >"instantaneous universe". Paul, the problem you and other SRians have is that you cannot understand that the universe operates quite well without human observers who use EM for communication..
>So when you are boiling your eggs, you better use >your local watch on your wall, and not the coordinate >clocks of some arbitrarily chosen "instant universe". They all read the same anyway.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 21 Apr 2005 22:35 GMT >>>Ghost, in an instantaneous universe, all observers are equipped with an >>>infinite array of presynched clocks. The nearest clock to any event registers [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The clocks in my grid are connected by rigid rods. There are all mutually at > rest. Quite. But there are an infinite number of such possible grids.
> You always want to unnecessarily complicate things, Paul. I am only pointing out that the GPS "grid" is one of your possible "grids" WHICH EXISTS and is in practical use.
Why do you find that to be a complication?
>>>If one observer subsequently moves wrt another, both their grids remain in >>>absolute synch because we know that clocks don't PHYSICALLY change when given a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > If communication travel time is corrected out. If you hear in the news that some event happened somewhere in the world at a certain local time, do you then have to correct for the communication travel time before you agree that the event happened at said local time?
Point being: it doesn't matter how the fact is communicated to you.
>>>Note: the fact that an instantaneous universe can be simulated doesn't imply >>>that external information can be acquired instantly. The speed of communication [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Why would you want a system with moving orbiting clocks when you can have one > with clocks at rest? Why are you stating stupidities like this, Henri? You understant bloody well that your system of clocks connected by rigid rods are not feasible in the real world.
The GPS system is an existing, practical example of system.
>>Or you can obviously define another frame of reference >>with coordinated time and call this your "instantaneous [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Very funny Paul. > If you give a clock a push, does it speed up or slow down? Neither. It keep running at its proper time. But it will NOT stay in synch with the clocks that are NOT pushed. Which proves that time is not absolute.
>>The time that has physical significance - and thus >>the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the universe operates quite well without human observers who use EM for > communication.. Exactly. That was what I said. The processes of nature run according to their own local time. They don't give a damn about the time shown by coordinate clocks in some arbitrary "instantaneous universe".
Don't you agree?
>>So when you are boiling your eggs, you better use >>your local watch on your wall, and not the coordinate >>clocks of some arbitrarily chosen "instant universe". > > They all read the same anyway. Does too! Does too! We know how clocks in the real world behave, Henri. They prove that time is not absolute, and doesn't always "read the same anyway" when you compare them.
Paul
Henri Wilson - 22 Apr 2005 04:31 GMT >> The clocks in my grid are connected by rigid rods. There are all mutually at >> rest. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Why do you find that to be a complication? Because people like you tend to make outrageous claims about relatively moving clocks. Let's keep these grids simple, eh.
>>>>If one observer subsequently moves wrt another, both their grids remain in >>>>absolute synch because we know that clocks don't PHYSICALLY change when given a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >travel time before you agree that the event happened >at said local time? No Paul, that is exactly what my clock grid does.
>Point being: >it doesn't matter how the fact is communicated to you. That's the whole idea. That way, you can establish what happened elsewhere at a certain universal instant.
>>>>Note: the fact that an instantaneous universe can be simulated doesn't imply >>>>that external information can be acquired instantly. The speed of communication [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >clocks connected by rigid rods are not feasible >in the real world. For most experiments , only two clocks are needed.
>The GPS system is an existing, practical example of system. Paul, I'm not going to actually use my grid. It is a theoretical explanation of universal time and absolute simultaneity. After all, Albert didn't arrange for lightning to strike that train when he came up with his 'proof' that simultaneity is relative, did he?.
>>>Or you can obviously define another frame of reference >>>with coordinated time and call this your "instantaneous [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >that are NOT pushed. >Which proves that time is not absolute. Gord, I can feel an attack of the tick fairies coming on....
>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus >>>the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Don't you agree? I certainly agree that time does not depend on human clocks for its existence.
>>>So when you are boiling your eggs, you better use >>>your local watch on your wall, and not the coordinate [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >doesn't always "read the same anyway" when >you compare them. Rods and clocks do not physically change with velocity.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 22 Apr 2005 13:12 GMT >>>The clocks in my grid are connected by rigid rods. There are all mutually at >>>rest. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > No Paul, that is exactly what my clock grid does. So why did you bring in your "communication delay"? To obfuscate the issue?
>>Point being: >>it doesn't matter how the fact is communicated to you. > > That's the whole idea. > That way, you can establish what happened elsewhere at a certain universal > instant. Like we do with the GPS.
>>>>>Note: the fact that an instantaneous universe can be simulated doesn't imply >>>>>that external information can be acquired instantly. The speed of communication [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > For most experiments , only two clocks are needed. Which would have to be at the right place at the right time, and synchronized to your universal grid.
All you need is a GPS-receiver, and you will have a clock synchronized to universal GPS-time anywhere at any time.
Beautiful, isn't it?
>>The GPS system is an existing, practical example of system. > > Paul, I'm not going to actually use my grid. It is a theoretical explanation of > universal time and absolute simultaneity. "Absolute simultaneously"? What is that? Simultaneously in all frames of reference? If that is what you mean, you better explain why you think that two events which happens at the same GPS-time must happen at the same time in all your possible "universal grids".
> After all, Albert didn't arrange for lightning to strike that train when he > came up with his 'proof' that simultaneity is relative, did he?. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>> >>>Not absolute, UNIVERSAL. Simultaneity is also universal. Not absolute, but absolute anyway, eh? :-) Since you have brought in "absolute simultaneous", I will rephrase my question somewhat:
What is your point? Do you think that defining a specific frame of reference with a specific coordinated time - and call it "the instantaneous universe" - can make simultaneity absolute?
Or I might put it like this: Does the existence of the GPS prove that simultaneity is absolute?
If that is your point, you better explain your reasoning.
>>>>Remember that we know for certain that moving clocks >>>>running at proper rate do NOT stay in synch with GPS-time. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Gord, I can feel an attack of the tick fairies coming on.... Facts are facts, Henri. Whether you like it or not. Invoking the fairies of Wonderland won't make them go away.
And the experimentally verified facts are: If you give a clock a push, it neither speeds up nor slows down, but keep running at its proper, intrinsic, same physical rate. But the clock which is pushed will not stay in synch with the clocks it previously was synced to.
>>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus >>>>the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I certainly agree that time does not depend on human clocks for its existence. Are you aware that you now have evaded commenting my statement by uttering void remarks?
Read again: The time that has physical significance - and thus the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - is the local time shown by local clocks. The processes of nature run according to their own local time. They don't give a damn about the time shown by coordinate clocks in some arbitrary "instantaneous universe".
Do I have to explain the significance?
Your man made imaginary universal grid cannot prove anything about the behaviour of real clocks. Nature doesn't care.
>>>>So when you are boiling your eggs, you better use >>>>your local watch on your wall, and not the coordinate [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Rods and clocks do not physically change with velocity. Quite right.
So let me rephrase: We know how real clocks behave, Henri. They always run at their same proper, intrinsic, physical rate. Yet all clocks do not "always read the same" when compared - even if they were synchronized some time in the past. Which proves conclusively that time is not absolute.
And neither man made imaginary universal grids, nor the fairies of Wonderland can change that.
But that won't keep you from asserting that your Wonderland is the real world, of course.
Paul
Henri Wilson - 22 Apr 2005 23:42 GMT >> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:35:37 +0200, "Paul B. Andersen"
>>>>>>If one observer subsequently moves wrt another, both their grids remain in >>>>>>absolute synch because we know that clocks don't PHYSICALLY change when given a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >So why did you bring in your "communication delay"? >To obfuscate the issue? Paul, When you were last on the moon and you used the GPS for a time reference, did you remember to add 1.26 seconds?
>>>Point being: >>>it doesn't matter how the fact is communicated to you. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Like we do with the GPS. Forget the gPS. The signals take about 90ms to reach the surface anyway. You have to correct for that.
>> For most experiments , only two clocks are needed. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Beautiful, isn't it? Why don;t you ask NASA to set up a very large GPS system around the whole solar system...better still around the whole universe!!!!
>>>The GPS system is an existing, practical example of system. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that two events which happens at the same GPS-time must >happen at the same time in all your possible "universal grids". 'Now' here is 'now' everywhere. Simple,eh? The grid of synched clocks can tell you what happens 'now' everywhere.
But you wont know till some time later.
>>>>>Do you think that defining a specific frame of reference >>>>>with a specific coordinated time - and call it "the instantaneous [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >If that is your point, you better explain your reasoning. 'Now' here is 'now' everywhere.
>>>>>Remember that we know for certain that moving clocks >>>>>running at proper rate do NOT stay in synch with GPS-time. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >will not stay in synch with the clocks it previously >was synced to. Who said? Was that another of Paul Andersen's fairy tales?
>>>>Paul, the problem you and other SRians have is that you cannot understand that >>>>the universe operates quite well without human observers who use EM for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Are you aware that you now have evaded commenting >my statement by uttering void remarks?
>Read again: >The time that has physical significance - and thus [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Do I have to explain the significance? I repeat, 'Now' here is 'now' everywhere.
Doesn't tht explain everything?
>Your man made imaginary universal grid cannot >prove anything about the behaviour of real clocks. >Nature doesn't care. That's why 'Now' here is 'now' everywhere.
>>>Does too! Does too! >>>We know how clocks in the real world behave, Henri. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >in the past. >Which proves conclusively that time is not absolute. There has been no believeable experimental proof of that fact. You are a dreamer.
>And neither man made imaginary universal grids, >nor the fairies of Wonderland can change that. > >But that won't keep you from asserting that >your Wonderland is the real world, of course. Where did you get the idea that the local flow of time varies whenever a clock happens to pass by? If I fire an egg timer at Mars, does that change timeflow along its path?
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 29 Apr 2005 13:29 GMT >>>On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:35:37 +0200, "Paul B. Andersen" > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Paul, When you were last on the moon and you used the GPS for a time > reference, did you remember to add 1.26 seconds? I wrote: "All observers can obviously agree on the GPS-time of an event."
The point is that every event - on the Moon or wherever - has an unique GPS time coordinate which cannot be disputed by any observer.
So why did you bring in your "communication delay"? To obfuscate the issue?
>>>>Point being: >>>>it doesn't matter how the fact is communicated to you. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Forget the gPS. The signals take about 90ms to reach the surface anyway. You > have to correct for that. I wrote: "All observers can obviously agree on the GPS-time of an event."
The point is that every event has an unique GPS time coordinate which cannot be disputed by any observer.
So why did you bring in your "communication delay"? To obfuscate the issue?
>>>For most experiments , only two clocks are needed. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Why don;t you ask NASA to set up a very large GPS system around the whole solar > system...better still around the whole universe!!!! The simple point is that the GPS is a concrete example of your "instantaneous universe". It is a hell of a lot more real than your imaginary grid.
>>>>The GPS system is an existing, practical example of system. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Simple,eh? > The grid of synched clocks can tell you what happens 'now' everywhere. Sure the GPS defines GPS-now everywhere. What's so amazing about that? The existence of the GPS doesn't make simultaneity absolute, does it?
> But you wont know till some time later. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > 'Now' here is 'now' everywhere. I wonder if you are making yourself more stupid than you are?
The point is that the statement "now is now everywhere" only applies to one specific "grid" - or frame of reference. That "now is now everywhere" referred to one specific frame - like the GPS-frame - is an obvious triviality.
But you obviously seem to think that the existence of one such frame of reference - like the GPS - can make "now to be now everywhere" referred to _any_ frame of reference.
Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion?
>>>>>>Remember that we know for certain that moving clocks >>>>>>running at proper rate do NOT stay in synch with GPS-time. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Who said? > Was that another of Paul Andersen's fairy tales? It is an experimentally verified fact.
>>>>>Paul, the problem you and other SRians have is that you cannot understand that >>>>>the universe operates quite well without human observers who use EM for [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Doesn't tht explain everything? It is too imprecise to explain anything. If you mean to say that "if two events are simoultaneous in one frame of reference, then they are simoultaneous in all frames of reference", the the statement is plain wrong.
In either case, it explains nothing.
Read again: The time that has physical significance - and thus the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - is the local time shown by local clocks. The processes of nature run according to their own local time. They don't give a damn about the time shown by coordinate clocks in some arbitrary "instantaneous universe".
Does the significance still escape you?
>>Your man made imaginary universal grid cannot >>prove anything about the behaviour of real clocks. >>Nature doesn't care. > > That's why 'Now' here is 'now' everywhere. Daa-daaa- won't hear - daaa - daaa. Right?
>>>>Does too! Does too! >>>>We know how clocks in the real world behave, Henri. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There has been no believeable experimental proof of that fact. You are a > dreamer. Facts are facts even if you shut your eyes.
>>And neither man made imaginary universal grids, >>nor the fairies of Wonderland can change that. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > happens to pass by? > If I fire an egg timer at Mars, does that change timeflow along its path? Local clocks measure the "timeflow". A clock is simply an example of a natural process running at it natural pace. There is no other kind of "timeflow" of interest in physics, because this is the only kind of "timeflow" that has physical consequences in the real world.
And whether you like it or not, all clocks do not "always read the same" when compared - even if they were synchronized some time in the past. Which proves conclusively that time is not absolute.
Paul
Henri Wilson - 30 Apr 2005 00:02 GMT >> Paul, When you were last on the moon and you used the GPS for a time >> reference, did you remember to add 1.26 seconds? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >So why did you bring in your "communication delay"? >To obfuscate the issue? At any universal instant, every event anywhere is uniquely distant (measured by universal rigid rods) from any other event anywhere.
>>>>That's the whole idea. >>>>That way, you can establish what happened elsewhere at a certain universal [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >So why did you bring in your "communication delay"? >To obfuscate the issue? No Paul, in theory you are possibly correct ..but in practice, it is impossible to know precisely because of the communication time delay. I'm not quite sure why a 'unique GPS time coordinate' would be any different from my wristwatch's time coordinate.
>>>>For most experiments , only two clocks are needed. >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >of your "instantaneous universe". >It is a hell of a lot more real than your imaginary grid. In practice, only two clocks are needed to measure times of remote experiments. The clocks are E-synched (absolute synched) anytime.
>>>"Absolute simultaneously"? >>>What is that? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >The existence of the GPS doesn't make >simultaneity absolute, does it? Paul you wouldn't use the GPS to measure the timing of an event on Mars. You would use two clocks...one here, one there. Actually you would have to correct for the fact htat light speed will vary as the signal travels to Earth...but that applies to the GPS as well.
>> But you wont know till some time later.
>>>>>>Not absolute, UNIVERSAL. Simultaneity is also universal. >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? Yes Paul, you are obviously having difficulty in understanding that clock rates do not change just because a clock is given push. So you can synch two grids while they are together then subsequently set one in motion, with full confidence that all the clocks in both grids are still in universal synch.
Proof:
A_____C----------B->v
A and B are two observers. B is moving away from A and clock C at speed v.
C is now accelerated to speed v.
A----------C->v_______B->v
According to SR, C is now running more slowly in A's frame but more quickly in B's.
....do I have to go on......or can you work the rest out yourself?
>>>>>Neither. >>>>>It keep running at its proper time. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >It is an experimentally verified fact. Bull
>>>>>>Paul, the problem you and other SRians have is that you cannot understand that >>>>>>the universe operates quite well without human observers who use EM for [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - >is the local time shown by local clocks. What an unfortunate attitude. Do you think time didn't exist before the first physicist evolved?
>The processes of nature run according to their own >local time. They don't give a damn about the time >shown by coordinate clocks in some arbitrary >"instantaneous universe". > >Does the significance still escape you? No Paul, that is the very point I am trying to get across to you.
There is a dimension we call TIME, that exists irrespective of how our clocks measure it.
>>>Your man made imaginary universal grid cannot >>>prove anything about the behaviour of real clocks. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Daa-daaa- won't hear - daaa - daaa. >Right? At the instant I type X, right here and now, events are occuring everywhere else. Just because I have no way of knowing what they are till some time later doesn't mean they are not happening SIMULTANEOUSLY.
>>>physical rate. Yet all clocks do not "always read the same" >>>when compared - even if they were synchronized some time [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Local clocks measure the "timeflow". They try.
>A clock is simply an example of a natural process running >at it natural pace. There is no other kind of "timeflow" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >when compared - even if they were synchronized some time in the past. >Which proves conclusively that time is not absolute. That is not proven and you know it.
Perfect clocks can be moved anywhere, anyhow and they will remain in universal synch.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 04 May 2005 21:27 GMT >>>>Not absolute, but absolute anyway, eh? :-) >>>>Since you have brought in "absolute simultaneous", I will [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > A and B are two observers. B is moving away from A and clock C at speed v. So A will, by comparing the reading of clock C to an adjacent co-ordinate clock in the "universal grid" in which he is stationary, find that clock C stays in synch with this co-ordinate clock. B will, by comparing the reading of clock C to the at any time adjacent co-ordinate clock in the "universal grid" in which he is stationary, find that clock C does not stay in synch with these co-ordinate clocks, but it lags behind.
> C is now accelerated to speed v. > > A----------C->v_______B->v > > According to SR, C is now running more slowly in A's frame but more quickly in > B's. So B will, by comparing the reading of clock C to an adjacent co-ordinate clock in the "universal grid" in which he is stationary, find that clock C stays in synch with this co-ordinate clock. A will, by comparing the reading of clock C to the at any time adjacent co-ordinate clock in the "universal grid" in which he is stationary, find that clock C does not stay in synch with these co-ordinate clocks, but it lags behind.
In other words, as I say below: The clock which is pushed will not stay in synch with the clocks it previously was synced to.
Which is an experimentally verified fact.
> ....do I have to go on......or can you work the rest out yourself? Go on, please. You haven't said anything which explain how you arrived at your conclusion.
The question was: You obviously seem to think that the existence of one such frame of reference - like the GPS - can make "now to be now everywhere" referred to _any_ frame of reference.
Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion?
>>>>Facts are facts, Henri. >>>>Whether you like it or not. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bull Facts are facts, Henri. Whether you like it or not. Calling them bull won't make them go away.
>>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus >>>>the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > What an unfortunate attitude. > Do you think time didn't exist before the first physicist evolved? And your point is? That time didn't have physical significance before physics evolved? :-)
Nature doesn't give a damn about neither your nor any physicist's opinion. A natural process - like a clock - runs at its own natural pace. It doesn't care about your grid, and nature have shown us that the clock won't stay in synch with your grid if it is moving relative to it.
You see, nature doesn't give a damn about your mantra: "now is now everywhere".
>>The processes of nature run according to their own >>local time. They don't give a damn about the time [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > There is a dimension we call TIME, that exists irrespective of how our clocks > measure it. There may be a dimension in Wonderland YOU call TIME which exists irrespective of how clocks measure it.
But a clock IS a natural physical process which runs according to its own local time. So the time it measures is the only kind of time of interest in PHYSICS.
If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have lived IS 60 years. Your unmeasurable Wonderland TIME dimension is of no physical consequence whatsoever, and has therefore no place in PHYSICS.
Paul
Henri Wilson - 05 May 2005 06:56 GMT >>>>>Not absolute, but absolute anyway, eh? :-) >>>>>Since you have brought in "absolute simultaneous", I will [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >Which is an experimentally verified fact. HoHo HaHaa!Hahahah! Not that again?
>> ....do I have to go on......or can you work the rest out yourself? > >Go on, please. >You haven't said anything which explain how you arrived >at your conclusion. When the clock was given the push, did it 1) speed up 2) slow down or 3) not change.
>The question was: >You obviously seem to think that the existence of one such >frame of reference - like the GPS - can make "now to be now >everywhere" referred to _any_ frame of reference. > >Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? Let me redescribe my experiment.
A_____C----------B->v
A and B are two observers. B is moving away from A and clock C at speed v.
This time I will accelerate both A and B to the left, instead of the clock:
v<-A---------C______B
The final state is the same as before.
Has clock C changed in any way?
>>>>>Facts are facts, Henri. >>>>>Whether you like it or not. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Whether you like it or not. >Calling them bull won't make them go away. The plain fact is a clock tat is moving away will appear to run slow. One that is approaching will appear to run fast. The SRian cali that they will both ('appear to' or 'really', it cannot make up its mind) run slow is onbvious nonsense.
>>>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus >>>>>the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >and nature have shown us that the clock won't stay in >synch with your grid if it is moving relative to it. Time marches on whether or not humans define a unit for it.
>You see, nature doesn't give a damn about your >mantra: "now is now everywhere". Of course NOW here is NOW everywhere. It is my definition of absolute synch.
>>>The processes of nature run according to their own >>>local time. They don't give a damn about the time [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >There may be a dimension in Wonderland YOU call TIME >which exists irrespective of how clocks measure it. There is a dimension we call 'space' which exists irrespective of how our rods measure it.
Is that in winderland too?
You SRians are becoming quite hilarious.
>But a clock IS a natural physical process which runs >according to its own local time. So the time it measures >is the only kind of time of interest in PHYSICS. ..No Paul, of interest to SRians.
We true physicists recognoize that time exists whether or not is is being measured by clocks.
Does space exist when you are not measuring it Paul?
>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have >lived IS 60 years. >Your unmeasurable Wonderland TIME dimension is of no physical >consequence whatsoever, and has therefore no place in PHYSICS. Our time scale is purely arbitrary. It doesn't affect the existence of time.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 05 May 2005 22:36 GMT >>>>>>Not absolute, but absolute anyway, eh? :-) >>>>>>Since you have brought in "absolute simultaneous", I will [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > HoHo HaHaa!Hahahah! Not that again? Facts are facts, Henri. Laughing at them won't make them go away.
>>>....do I have to go on......or can you work the rest out yourself? >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Has clock C changed in any way? No.
But you didn't answer the question.
You obviously seem to think that the existence of one such frame of reference - like the GPS - can make "now to be now everywhere" referred to _any_ frame of reference.
Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion?
>>>>>>Facts are facts, Henri. >>>>>>Whether you like it or not. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The SRian cali that they will both ('appear to' or 'really', it cannot make up > its mind) run slow is onbvious nonsense. That you don't understand it doesn't change the facts.
>>>>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus >>>>>>the only kind of time that is of interest in PHYSICS - [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Time marches on whether or not humans define a unit for it. Indeed. But different natural processes may experience different amount of time between the same two events.
Experimentally verified fact.
>>You see, nature doesn't give a damn about your >>mantra: "now is now everywhere". > > Of course NOW here is NOW everywhere. It is my definition of absolute synch. Quite. Which doesn't exist in the real world. Experimentally verified fact.
>>>>The processes of nature run according to their own >>>>local time. They don't give a damn about the time [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Is that in winderland too? Yes.
> You SRians are becoming quite hilarious. Quite.
>>But a clock IS a natural physical process which runs >>according to its own local time. So the time it measures [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Does space exist when you are not measuring it Paul? Time and space exists independently, but you don't know its properties if you don't measure it.
Those measurements have shown that the Euclidean space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, - and as some naive people still imagine it - doesn't exist.
Nature doesn't give a damn about your imagination, Henri.
If you wish to know how nature behave, you better do measurements. That's what physics is all about.
>>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >>say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Our time scale is purely arbitrary. > It doesn't affect the existence of time. Did that statement mean anything? That "year" is an arbitray unit? So what?
Paul
Henri Wilson - 06 May 2005 01:01 GMT >>>Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? NOW here is also NOW 1 billion lightyears away and everywhere else.
A observer 1 billion LYs away also experiences my NOW at the same universal instant as I experience it.. He also knows that his NOW (which is also mine) is shared by the whole universe.
So do you have any difficult questions?
>> The plain fact is a clock tat is moving away will appear to run slow. One that >> is approaching will appear to run fast. >> The SRian cali that they will both ('appear to' or 'really', it cannot make up >> its mind) run slow is onbvious nonsense. > >That you don't understand it doesn't change the facts. Duh! I don't understand!!!! HoHOHO HahHahahaha!
>>>>>Read again: >>>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>What an unfortunate attitude. >>>>Do you think time didn't exist before the first physicist evolved?
>>>Nature doesn't give a damn about neither your >>>nor any physicist's opinion. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Experimentally verified fact. HOHOHO HaHAhahah!
>>>You see, nature doesn't give a damn about your >>>mantra: "now is now everywhere". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Which doesn't exist in the real world. >Experimentally verified fact. Proven by clocks that change rates when sent into free fall? ...or by clocks that fly through differnet amounts of the Earth's magnetic field and experience completely different turbulence, accelerations and temperature and pressure regimes during their trips?
>>>>>Does the significance still escape you? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Time and space exists independently, but you don't >know its properties if you don't measure it. Does measuring it affect its existence or behavior?
>Those measurements have shown that the Euclidean >space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, >- and as some naive people still imagine it - >doesn't exist. Really. But Einstein's own clock synch definition establishes universal time. Didn't you know that?
>Nature doesn't give a damn about your imagination, Henri. > >If you wish to know how nature behave, you better do >measurements. >That's what physics is all about. Ah! but is what we 'measure' with EM actually what is there?
>>>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >>>say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >That "year" is an arbitray unit? >So what? According to you, measurement parameters determine whether or not TIME exists.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 06 May 2005 14:19 GMT >>>>Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > So do you have any difficult questions? Yes, the one you didn't answer.
It was: You obviously seem to think that the existence of one such frame of reference - like the GPS - can make "now to be now everywhere" referred to _any_ frame of reference.
Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion?
>>>The plain fact is a clock tat is moving away will appear to run slow. One that >>>is approaching will appear to run fast. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Duh! I don't understand!!!! HoHOHO HahHahahaha! Which is more pathetic than funny, though.
>>>>>>Read again: >>>>>>The time that has physical significance - and thus [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > HOHOHO HaHAhahah! Facts are facts, Henri. Laughing at them won't make them go away.
>>>>You see, nature doesn't give a damn about your >>>>mantra: "now is now everywhere". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > field and experience completely different turbulence, accelerations and > temperature and pressure regimes during their trips? Quite.
It must OBVIOUSLY be true that time is absolute and Galilean relativity applies. That means that every prediction of GR is wrong. The correct prediction for any clock is that it should always show the same as any other clock, regardless of what you do. So the correct prediction for clocks in GPS orbit is that they should always stay in synch with clocks on the ground. The clock in Vessot's rocket and the clocks in Alley's planes should still be in synch with the ground clocks after the flight. But we know that didn't happen. The reason is OBVIOUSLY that the clocks malfunctioned because they changed their intrinsic rate in free fall, they changed their intrinsic rate due to different amounts of the Earth's magnetic field, they changed their intrinsic rate because they experienced different turbulence, they changed their intrinsic rate due to different accelerations, they changed their intrinsic rate due to different temperature, they changed their intrinsic rate due to different pressure. So the clocks were simply WRONG because they malfunctioned.
But in every single case (several more than mentioned above) they were ACCIDENTALLY wrong by the exact amount predicted by the wrong theory GR! The fairies of Wonderland at work!
That GR is correct and that the clocks showed exactly what GR predicted they should show because the clocks did not malfunction, but always ran at the same intrinsic rate is OBVIOUSLY a far less probable explanation than the fairytale above.
Isn't it?
>>>>>>Does the significance still escape you? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Does measuring it affect its existence or behavior? No.
Your point? Is there anything you don't understand, or don't agree to in the following statement: Time and space exists independently of observations, but you don't know their properties if you don't measure them. The only way to learn how nature behaves, is to observe it, - that is to do measurements.
Is my statement wrong? Please be specific.
>>Those measurements have shown that the Euclidean >>space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > But Einstein's own clock synch definition establishes universal time. > Didn't you know that? No.
Your point? Is there anything you don't understand, or don't agree to in the following statement: Measurements have shown that the Euclidean space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, don't exist.
Is my statement wrong? Please be specific.
>>Nature doesn't give a damn about your imagination, Henri. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ah! but is what we 'measure' with EM actually what is there? Point being? That nothing can be measured? Is there anything you don't understand, or don't agree to in the following statement: If you wish to know how nature behaves, you better do measurements. That's what physics is all about.
Is my statement wrong? Please be specific.
>>>>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >>>>say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > According to you, measurement parameters determine whether or not TIME exists. When your response is to claim that I have said what we both know I never said, you must be pretty desperate.
Could you really not find anything better to say?
Paul
Henri Wilson - 08 May 2005 01:01 GMT >>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? Set up any GPS system on planet X in Andromeda using clocks presynched with those of our own system.
Its time readings will be the same as ours.
1200 here is 1200 there. Now here is NOW everywhere.
Why the hell should it NOT BE?
>>>>The plain fact is a clock tat is moving away will appear to run slow. One that >>>>is approaching will appear to run fast. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Which is more pathetic than funny, though. Well it wouldn't be funny to someone who doesn't want to know about it and cannot refute it.
>>>>Time marches on whether or not humans define a unit for it. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Facts are facts, Henri. >Laughing at them won't make them go away. Name one direct piece of evidence in support of SR.
>> Proven by clocks that change rates when sent into free fall? >> ...or by clocks that fly through differnet amounts of the Earth's magnetic [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >and Galilean relativity applies. >That means that every prediction of GR is wrong. Not so. Many of its predictions are the same as those of the BaT. ...even Earth centrism can make accurate predictions in simple cases.
>The correct prediction for any clock is that it should >always show the same as any other clock, regardless of what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the clocks in Alley's planes should still be in synch >with the ground clocks after the flight. They were...within accepted statistical levels.
>But we know that didn't happen. >The reason is OBVIOUSLY that the clocks malfunctioned because [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >rate due to different pressure. >So the clocks were simply WRONG because they malfunctioned. Correct. you have seen the light! Hooray!!!
>But in every single case (several more than mentioned above) >they were ACCIDENTALLY wrong by the exact amount predicted [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Isn't it? The clocks ar sent into orbit then software fine tuned to make them run at the rate of the groiund clocks. Do you really believe a clock....or anything else...would stand the trauma of being fired into orbit without changing in some slight way?
the fact that the free fall correction is around the same order as the GR one is pure coincidence. .
>>>>>There may be a dimension in Wonderland YOU call TIME >>>>>which exists irrespective of how clocks measure it. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Is my statement wrong? Yes...the use of the word 'only'.
>Please be specific. Observations and measurements are themselves limited by definitions and interpretations based on previous and similar observations and measurements.
For instance the shape of the human eye and all the optics that go with it are based on our interpretation of Euclidean space. Yet the concept of 'three axes at right angles' is a purely psychological one.
So does an eye have an absolute form? Does SPACE have an absolute form?
>>>Those measurements have shown that the Euclidean >>>space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Is my statement wrong? >Please be specific. It is quite wrong because you omitted several important qualifications. Newton was correct to a 'certain level of definition'.
>>>Nature doesn't give a damn about your imagination, Henri. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > you better do measurements. > That's what physics is all about. That's what one aspect of physics is about. You are confusing physics with engineering.
>Is my statement wrong? >Please be specific. Physics operates in several ways. Here are some. 1) it measures and observes. 2) It uses results of observations to make predictions. 3) It tests predictions using measurements. 4) It questions its own methods. 5) It hypothesizes about things that might lie outside its own scope of observation and measurement. 6) It performs 'thought experiments' based on logic.
>>>>>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >>>>>say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Could you really not find anything better to say? When your response is to claim that I have said what we both know I never said, you must be pretty desperate.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 08 May 2005 22:00 GMT >>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Why the hell should it NOT BE? Why do you keep repeating this obvious triviality, Henri?
Of course you can define a specific frame of reference, - like the GPS - and of course all observers have to agree on the coordinates of any event in this particular frame of reference, and of course all the events with the same time coordinate can be called simultaneous in this frame of reference, and of course all the events with the same time coordinate as your NOW can be called now everywhere in this particular frame of reference.
THIS WAS NEVER DISPUTED BY ANYONE!
The still unanswered question is: You obviously seem to think that the existence of one such frame of reference - like the GPS - can make "now to be now everywhere" referred to _any_ frame of reference.
Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion?
>>>>>Time marches on whether or not humans define a unit for it. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Name one direct piece of evidence in support of SR. Are you telling me that you don't know the evidence you find so funny? What are you laughing at then? Your own ignorance?
>>>Proven by clocks that change rates when sent into free fall? >>>...or by clocks that fly through differnet amounts of the Earth's magnetic [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Many of its predictions are the same as those of the BaT. > ...even Earth centrism can make accurate predictions in simple cases. Of course many prediction of NM and GR are identical. But don't pretend that you don't understand that I am talking about the predictions of GR which differ from the predictions of NM.
>>The correct prediction for any clock is that it should >>always show the same as any other clock, regardless of what [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > the fact that the free fall correction is around the same order as the GR one > is pure coincidence. Exactly, Henri. Pure coincidence. That WAS what I said, wasn't it? :-)
Whenever I tell you a crazy fairytale, you say I have seen the light. Fairies exists! Hooray!
>>>>>>But a clock IS a natural physical process which runs >>>>>>according to its own local time. So the time it measures [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > So does an eye have an absolute form? Does SPACE have an absolute form? I asked you to be specific. You claim that there is another way to learn how nature behaves than to make observations and measurements. Please tell me about it. Don't forget the context. It was my statement: "Time and space exists independently of observations, but you don't know their properties if you don't measure them. The only way to learn how nature behaves, is to observe it, - that is to do measurements."
Now you can tell me about the alternative way used by the true physcisists of Wonderland.
>>>>Those measurements have shown that the Euclidean >>>>space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It is quite wrong because you omitted several important qualifications. > Newton was correct to a 'certain level of definition'. So Newton was not correct. I take this as a confirmation of my words. "Measurements have shown that the Euclidean space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, don't exist."
>>>>Nature doesn't give a damn about your imagination, Henri. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > That's what one aspect of physics is about. > You are confusing physics with engineering.
>>Is my statement wrong? >>Please be specific. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > observation and measurement. > 6) It performs 'thought experiments' based on logic. So you agree. Physics is about doing measurements to learn how nature behaves.
So why are you making all these ridiculous claims which are falsified by those measurements?
>>>>>>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >>>>>>say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > When your response is to claim that I have said what > we both know I never said, you must be pretty desperate. You mean you never said: "According to you, measurement parameters determine whether or not TIME exists." ?
Fleeing again, Henri? I take that as an admission that you know I never said that. So why did you claim I said what you know I didn't? Desperation?
Paul
Henri Wilson - 09 May 2005 03:20 GMT >>>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > >Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to that conclusion? Time is not affected by the movement of anything. Nor is it affect by how one defines space. It is not at all related to space. It is an entirely separate dimension.
>>>>>>Time marches on whether or not humans define a unit for it. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >What are you laughing at then? >Your own ignorance? that's correct Paul. I have never seen anything that directly supprts SR.
>>>>Proven by clocks that change rates when sent into free fall? >>>>...or by clocks that fly through differnet amounts of the Earth's magnetic [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >am talking about the predictions of GR which differ from >the predictions of NM. Maybe someone accidentally omitted a factor of 2.
>>>The correct prediction for any clock is that it should >>>always show the same as any other clock, regardless of what [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >Exactly, Henri. Pure coincidence. >That WAS what I said, wasn't it? :-) It is also pure coincidence that a half metre vertical steel rod extends by the GR prediction when sent into free fall.
>>>>Does measuring it affect its existence or behavior? >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >nature behaves than to make observations and measurements. >Please tell me about it. An observation is often suffficient. A measurement is an engineering requirement.
>Don't forget the context. It was my statement: >"Time and space exists independently of observations, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Now you can tell me about the alternative way >used by the true physcisists of Wonderland. computer simulation of a hunch.
If it produces a result analogous with an 'observation' (not necessarily a measurement) then OK.
>>>>>Those measurements have shown that the Euclidean >>>>>space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >So Newton was not correct. So was Boyle....to a certain level.
>I take this as a confirmation of my words. > "Measurements have shown that the Euclidean > space and absolute time as Newton imagined it, > don't exist." Undoubtedly Newton would have accommodated any required refinements. ..but he died. So did Walter Ritz. One day they will add, "so did Henri Wilson".
>>>Is my statement wrong? >>>Please be specific. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Physics is about doing measurements to learn >how nature behaves. No. Observations. Measurements are an engineering requirement.
>So why are you making all these ridiculous claims >which are falsified by those measurements? S_________c----p->-----------------------------Andromeda
Paul, I will ask again. If the pulse from source S is traveling at one speed relatiove to its source, how can it possess ONE speed wrt an infinite number of relatively moving objects?
You cannot give an intelligent answer can you,,,HahHahahah!
>>>>>>>If my beard and my clock and my wrinkled face >>>>>>>say I have lived for 60 years, then the TIME I have [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >So why did you claim I said what you know I didn't? >Desperation? I'll have to ask my pet monkey to answer that. He understands poor logic.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 09 May 2005 20:36 GMT >>>>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > Nor is it affect by how one defines space. It is not at all related to space. > It is an entirely separate dimension. The still unanswered question is: Can you please explain the reasoning that leads to the conclusion that time is absolute?
This IS the very issue of this thread, you know. But I am beginning to suspect that you are unable to explain your reasoning. Why is that? Is it because there is no reasoning behind your assertion: "time is absolute"? So all you can do is to repeat it over and over? But you said you had proved it. It is that proof I am asking for, not another assertion of your conclusion.
So Henri? Your proof?
>>>>>Proven by clocks that change rates when sent into free fall? >>>>>...or by clocks that fly through differnet amounts of the Earth's magnetic [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >>Exactly, Henri. Pure coincidence. >>That WAS what I said, wasn't it? :-) Whenever I tell you a crazy fairytale, you say I have seen the light. Fairies exists! Hooray! :-)
> It is also pure coincidence that a half metre vertical steel rod extends by the > GR prediction when sent into free fall. A half metre long steel rod extends by 1*10^-7 when it is in free fall compared to when it is vertical on the ground. But what's your point with this seemingly irrelevant remark?
Is your reasoning something like this: The fact that a half metre vertical steel rod extends by 10^-7 when in free fall proves that this is the cause of why clocks in GPS orbit run fast by the the experimentally measured factor (4.465*10^-10 +/- 10^-13), which prove that it is a pure coincidence that GR predicts that clocks in free fall should run fast by the factor 4.4647*10^-10.
Since this is another fantastic fairytale, you should agree.
>>>>>Does measuring it affect its existence or behavior? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > An observation is often suffficient. > A measurement is an engineering requirement. Which is stupid babble, of course. :-)
But anyway - doing an observation isn't different from "making observations and measurements." You claimed there was another way to learn how nature behaves.
And you have told me about this alternative way below. Thanks.
>>Don't forget the context. It was my statement: >>"Time and space exists independently of observations, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > computer simulation of a hunch. So THAT's how the true physicists of Wonderland learn how nature behaves.
"Computer simulation of a hunch".
Enough said!
Paul
Henri Wilson - 10 May 2005 00:45 GMT >>>>>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 153 lines] >in free fall compared to when it is vertical on the ground. >But what's your point with this seemingly irrelevant remark? I hope you checked you sums...no matter. Use a quartz crystal instead.
>Is your reasoning something like this: > The fact that a half metre vertical steel rod extends by 10^-7 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Since this is another fantastic fairytale, you should agree. The fact that the BaT (and GR indirectly) both predict that light's speed will increase by about 4.4647*10^-10 when falling from 20000 kms is not related to the fact that some atomic clocks change by roughly that amount when in free fall.
>>>>>>Does measuring it affect its existence or behavior? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >"making observations and measurements." >You claimed there was another way to learn how nature behaves. Paul, knowing the exact rate at which water falls doesn't reveal any more physics than observing that it DOES actually fall.
It might tell hydro people quite a lot.
>And you have told me about this alternative way below. >Thanks. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Enough said! Paul, I am not claiming that measurements are NOT a vital tool in physics. I am merely pointing out that they are not the ONLY tool.
>Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 10 May 2005 10:56 GMT >>>>>>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] >>So Henri? >>Your proof? Henri? Giving up?
>>>>>>>Proven by clocks that change rates when sent into free fall? >>>>>>>...or by clocks that fly through differnet amounts of the Earth's magnetic [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > the fact that some atomic clocks change by roughly that amount when in free > fall. What was the point with your half metre steel rod, Henri? Was your reasoning something like this? The fact that a half metre vertical steel rod extends by 10^-7 when in free fall proves that this is the cause of why clocks in GPS orbit run fast by the the experimentally measured factor (4.465*10^-10 +/- 10^-13), which prove that it is a pure coincidence that GR predicts that clocks in free fall should run fast by the factor 4.4647*10^-10.
If this is wrong - what was then your reasoning? Nothing? Didn't you have a point?
>>>>"Time and space exists independently of observations, >>>> but you don't know their properties if you don't measure them. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Paul, I am not claiming that measurements are NOT a vital tool in physics. Paul:
| The only way to learn how nature behaves, is to observe it, | - that is to do measurements. | Is my statement wrong? Henri:
| Yes...the use of the word 'only'. Which is to say that you claim that it is possible to learn how nature behave _without_ observations and measurements.
And that alternative way is: "Computer simulation of a hunch".
And you are demonstrating this alternative way all the time with your Wonderland physics.
> I am merely pointing out that they are not the ONLY tool. Who was talking about "tools"? A hammer is a tool frequently used in experimental physics. That doesn't make my statement wrong:
| The only way to learn how nature behaves, is to observe it, | - that is to do measurements. Because this statement is true - in physics. Anything else - like your hunches - is religion.
Paul
Henri Wilson - 10 May 2005 23:33 GMT >>>>>>>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] >Henri? >Giving up? Paul, the movement of an observer does not physically affect anything external. Sp why should TIME or TIMEFLOW at any point in space be dependent on the movement of anything?
>>>>>>The clocks ar sent into orbit then software fine tuned to make them run at the >>>>>>rate of the groiund clocks. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Nothing? >Didn't you have a point? The point is that it is not at all surprising that a clock changes slightly after experiencing a launch into orbit.
The 'GR correction' is only an approximation suggested by some bright SRian... who probably got a PhD for his little confidence trick. The exact amount by which clocks will change in free fall has never been accurately checked. In fact they all change by different amounts and have to be software corrected after being placed in orbit.
>>>>>"Time and space exists independently of observations, >>>>> but you don't know their properties if you don't measure them. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >| The only way to learn how nature behaves, is to observe it, >| - that is to do measurements. Well Paul, you god Einstein neither peformed nor referred to any measurements or experiments in his 1905 paper. Does that mean that none of it can be classed as physics? Is it just a theory about plain nonsense because there are no measurements in it? That seems to be what you are saying.
>Because this statement is true - in physics. >Anything else - like your hunches - is religion. > >Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Sometimes I feel like a complete failure. The most useful thing I have ever done is prove Einstein wrong.
Paul B. Andersen - 11 May 2005 14:17 GMT >>>>>>>>>>>Let me redescribe my experiment. >>>>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > Sp why should TIME or TIMEFLOW at any point in space be dependent on the > movement of anything? So you are again evading the issue by stating irrelevant, obvious trivialities disputed by no one?
The issue is that you claim the existence of one particular frame of reference with coordinated time - like the GPS - prove that time is absolute.
Where is your proof?
>>>>>>>The clocks ar sent into orbit then software fine tuned to make them run at the >>>>>>>rate of the groiund clocks. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > The point is that it is not at all surprising that a clock changes slightly > after experiencing a launch into orbit. You are evading the issue. Why is that? Is it too stupid to defend? The question was: What was the point with your half metre steel rod, Henri? Was your reasoning something like this? The fact that a half metre vertical steel rod extends by 10^-7 when in free fall proves that this is the cause of why clocks in GPS orbit run fast by the the experimentally measured factor (4.465*10^-10 +/- 10^-13), which prove that it is a pure coincidence that GR predicts that clocks in free fall should run fast by the factor 4.4647*10^-10.
If this is wrong - what was then your reasoning? Nothing? Didn't you have a point?
> The 'GR correction' is only an approximation suggested by some bright SRian... > who probably got a PhD for his little confidence trick. > The exact amount by which clocks will change in free fall has never been > accurately checked. In fact they all change by different amounts and have to be > software corrected after being placed in orbit. You are babbling. You know very well that GR's predictions for the behaviour of clocks in GPS orbit are proven correct within small margins. And then there are Alley's and Vessot's experiments and several others as well - all confirming GR.
Facts are facts, Henri. Even if you don't like them.
>>>>>>"Time and space exists independently of observations, >>>>>>but you don't know their properties if you don't measure them. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > as physics? Is it just a theory about plain nonsense because there are no > measurements in it? That seems to be what you are saying. I am saying that the only way to learn how nature behaves, is to observe it - that is to do measurements.
No sane person will dispute this statement.
Of course observation comes before theory. In his 1905 paper Einstein starts with referring to observations and measurements. He describes how magnets and conductors are observed to behave. Then he states: "Examples of this sort, together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the Earth relative to the 'light medium' suggests that ..". Then he formulates the postulates of SR. Of COURSE Einstein based his postulates on observations of nature.
Exactly as Galileo did. And Newton. And Maxwell. And every other physicist who ever formulated a theory.
Any theory of physics is an attempt to explain the observations and measurements which are already made. As the next step comes testing the predictions of the theory which are not yet tested.
It is indeed an idiotic idea that Einstein - or any other physicist - could formulate postulates of how nature behaves without first observing how nature seems to behave. Postulates of physics are inductions of observations. (We observe that nature behaves like this in this case, let us postulate that nature always behaves like this.)
BTW, this is where you err so miserably. Your "theories" are free inventions, not based on observations of how nature behaves, but on how you think nature should behave.
And the consequence is that you have to deny the validity of any observation of how nature actually behaves.
But you are no physicist, of course.
Paul
Henri Wilson - 13 May 2005 05:39 GMT >>>Henri? >>>Giving up? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Where is your proof? I did not say time is absolute. I said 'NOW' is universal. Why the hell should it not be?
>>>>>>>>The clocks ar sent into orbit then software fine tuned to make them run at the >>>>>>>>rate of the groiund clocks. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >Nothing? >Didn't you have a point? Yes Paul.
My point is that, like all religious fanatics, SRians will jump on anything that even r
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