Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Biology
BiologyBotanyMicrobiologyEntomologyEvolutionPaleontology
Chemistry
General ChemistryAnalytical ChemistryElectrochemistryOrganic Synthesis
Earth Science
GeologyMineralogyOceanographyMeteorologyEarthquakes
Physics
General PhysicsResearchRelativityParticle PhysicsElectromagnetismFusionOpticsAcousticsNew Theories

Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / April 2005



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Re: This Newsgroup.

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Len Gaasenbeek - 27 Apr 2005 14:42 GMT
To Bill,

Just read the many postings on this newsgroup which question various aspects
of relativity.
For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed
reasoning of relativists.

I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the need
for such a newsgroup.
For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of
contemporary biology.

Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other scientific theories,  have
been criticized and disagreed with ever since he first proposed them.  In
addition, Einstein never agreed with the basics of quantum mechanics which
were based on HIS theories!

"God does not play dice."
   Einstein's objection to the quantum theory, in which physical events can
only be known in terms of probabilities.  It is sometimes quoted as 'God
does not play dice with the Universe'.
Albert Einstein, Creator and Rebel (B. Hoffman), Ch. 10.

Len.
.........................................................
John C. Polasek - 27 Apr 2005 18:15 GMT
>To Bill,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Len.
>.........................................................
No quantum theory did not begin with Einstein, it began with
Schrodinger's equation Epsi = Hpsi, a mystery equation in that it was
perhaps 5 years before anyone decided what psi was (probability
density).

John Polasek
http://www.dualspace.net
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 27 Apr 2005 19:53 GMT
[snip]
> Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other
> scientific theories, have been criticized and
> disagreed with ever since he first proposed them.
[snip]

This would not have happened if any relativist
had ever explained such things as the following:

Frame A
[3]---------rod-----------[3]
E1                        E2
[4]---------rod-----------[5]
Frame B

What is the direct physical cause of the
above disagreement re the times of the
two events?   ([X] = clock at the event)
Dirk Van de moortel - 27 Apr 2005 20:15 GMT
> [snip]
> > Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> above disagreement re the times of the
> two events?   ([X] = clock at the event)

The physical cause can probably be found in the inner
workings of the green goo inside your skull:
 http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html

Dirk Vdm
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 28 Apr 2005 16:55 GMT
--in essence, an admission that he does not
 have an explanation--

So, let's try an easier question:

Does Dirky agree with the picture (which shows the
math of SR) that most of SR's clocks are asynchronous?
Dirk Van de moortel - 28 Apr 2005 18:37 GMT
> --in essence, an admission that he does not
>   have an explanation--
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Does Dirky agree with the picture (which shows the
> math of SR) that most of SR's clocks are asynchronous?

How would someone who is stupid enough to write something
like this
   http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html
expect to understand any answer to any question?

Dirk Vdm
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 28 Apr 2005 19:39 GMT
Something about how he copped out on easier question 2.

So let's drop it down to the even easier question 3:

We all know that one frame can find events E1 and E2 to
be simultaneous, whereas another will find them happening
at different times (just as my initial picture depicted),
but what we do NOT know is WHY?

Perhaps Dirky-boy can scrape together enough brain cells to
tell us why simultaneity is relative in SR.  (But he has to
remember that we need a physical cause, not a math one or
some gibberish about "That's the nature of our 4D universe.")
Dirk Van de moortel - 28 Apr 2005 20:40 GMT
> Something about how he copped out on easier question 2.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> remember that we need a physical cause, not a math one or
> some gibberish about "That's the nature of our 4D universe.")

Of course we know why, in the sense that it is a direct
consequence of the combination of
(1) the way we physically -operationally- define and
measure distances and times of remote events, and
(2) the assumption, based on experience, that light
speed is observer independent.
And, no, we don't know WHY we experience (2).
And yes, you don't understand (2) and therefore don't
accept (2) but that is entirely your problem.

I recently explained (1) in detail to sub-morons like Jim
Greenfield, Mitch Raemsch and Henry Wilson and probably
to some others as well. They are all just about as stupid and
blockheaded as you are, so you can work for it and use
google to find the details. When you find it and don't
understand it either, feel free to imitate these idiots by ignoring
it and continuing your little rant in a some new thread,
just like you have been doing here since at least 1996:
  http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/425
3f5abdaa5b29f/0030b767aa748b7c

Look carefully: the 3 biggest and longest lasting usenet
crackpots are there: Ken Seto, Louis Savain and you,
Brian D. Jones (aka Cadwgan Gedrych aka Martin Miller
aka Edward Travis aka Ron Aikas aka Roy Royce aka
John Reid aka SRdude).

But before you say anything, explain to me what is so
utterly wrong and stupid in this one:
 http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html
What makes you think that an imbecile like you would
understand *anything* beyond 1+1=2?

Dirk Vdm
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 29 Apr 2005 14:35 GMT
> > We all know that one frame can find events
> > E1 and E2 to be simultaneous, whereas another
> > will find them happening at different times
> > (just as my initial picture depicted), but
> > what we do NOT know is WHY?

> Of course we know why, in the sense that it is a
> direct consequence of the combination of (1) the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> And yes, you don't understand (2) and therefore don't
> accept (2) but that is entirely your problem.

Well, now we are finally getting somewhere; however,
your (2) is ambiguous, and that is a big problem since
(2) is 50% of your given answer.

If (2) means "light's round-trip speed per one clock,"
then we can all agree that this speed is observer
independent, but if (2) means "light's one-way speed
per two clocks," then, 'Houston, we have a problem'
because this involves the infamous clock synchronization.

Since your (1) pertained to a definition of synchronization,
it could be assumed that your (2) pertained only to light's
one-way speed per two clocks, but you didn't pin this down.
I will go ahead with (2) = one-way speed.

You claimed that we do not know why we experience (2), but
at the same time you said that it was due to a definition;
can you see that this is self-contradictory?

Here is why we experience (2):
If clocks are forced by definition to obtain one-way light
speed invariance, then clocks will obtain one-way light
speed invariance, but such circularity is not physics.

Let me put this in simple, direct terms, as follows:

Clocks C1r and C2r are x distance apart on a railway track.

Clocks C1t and C2t are at the ends of a train that is x long.

When both C1 clocks are coincident in passing, and both read
zero, a light signal is sent out from them toward the C2 clocks,
which are to be started by the signal.

Train
C1t[0]----------X--------[-]C2t -->
----~~~>light signal
C1r[0]----------X--------[-]C2r
Rail
Since the train moves on, the signal reaches C2r before it
reaches C2t, as shown:

Train
--------t[x/c]----------X--------[-]C2t -->
-------------------------->light signal
C1r[x/c]----------X-------[x/c]C2r
Rail

At this point, Einstein's definition of clock synchronization
says to place the pre-chosen time x/c on clock C2r, as shown.

This may or may not be the correct time because the Earth and
the rails may be moving toward or away from the signal, but we
will give Einstein a break by assuming that this time is OK for
the signal's journey.

But we CANNOT allow Einstein to place this SAME time x/c on
the train clock C2t because it is perfectly clear that this
clock was NOT hit by the signal when C2r was hit.

Here is Einstein's definition applied to the train clocks:

Train
-------------------t[x/c+]----------X--------[x/c]C2t -->
---------------------------------------------->signal
C1r[x/c+]----------X-------[x/c+]C2r
Rail

The above little picture shows that the train clocks
are not synchronous under Einstein's definition.

It also shows that the clocks of all other frames will also
not be synchronous under Einstein's definition.

It further shows that these other frames' clocks will be
DIFFERENTLY asynchronous because all of the other frames
will move differently.

Moreover, the picture tell us that only ONE frame's clocks
will be synchronous under Einstein's definition. (As noted
above, we assumed that this was the rail frame in this case.)

What can now be said about Einstein's definition?

[1] It has no basis because nothing in nature says
   one-way light-speed invariance. (Einstein's "invariance"
   was given only by definition, not by experiment.)

[2] It produces asynchronous clocks in general.

[3] Asynchronous clocks cannot make correct measurements.

[4] Therefore, all 2-clock measurements in special relativity
   are incorrect, including the "measurement" of light's
   one-way, two-clock speed.

[5] Simultaneity is not really relative because it is caused
   by the asynchronicity of Einstein's clocks, as follows:

[3]-----Frame A------[3]
E1                   E2
[4]-----Frame B------[5]

Frame A finds the events to be simultaneous, but Frame B
does not find them to be simultaneous. Notice that this
cannot be blamed on the events themselves because events
are observer-independent. It is clear from the picture that
the cause of Einstein's relative simultaneity is simply the
use of his asynchronous clocks (in all frames but one).

Having seen invariance in the round-trip, one-clock case,
Einstein falsely extrapolated this to the one-way case, where,
as we have seen, invariance cannot occur experimentally (as
in the round-trip case), but must be given via definition.
a definition which makes clocks **asynchronous** and therefore
incorrectly related.

We do not need special relativity and its asynchronous clocks.

We need synchronous clocks.

Given synchronous clocks, we could correctly measure light's
one-way speed.

Since this speed would vary with frame velocity, we could us
it to calculate our speed through space.

End of story.
Dirk Van de moortel - 29 Apr 2005 15:49 GMT
> > <cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1114713560.979481.45060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> your (2) is ambiguous, and that is a big problem since
> (2) is 50% of your given answer.

You stupid fart, it is not ambiguous for the very reason
that it is an *assumption*.
I told you that you wouldn't understand that.

But I will now repeat my last lines of my previous messsage:

"But before you say anything, explain to me what is so
utterly wrong and stupid in this one:
 http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html
What makes you think that an imbecile like you would
understand *anything* beyond 1+1=2?

Dirk Vdm
Traveler - 28 Apr 2005 20:56 GMT
Dick Van de merde wrote:

><cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>And yes, you don't understand (2) and therefore don't
>accept (2) but that is entirely your problem.

IOW, Van de merde, you don't know jack sh.t. Oh, BTW, did Uncle Al and
John Baez take turn f.cking you in the a.s last night? :-D

Louis Savain

The Silver Bullet: Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix it
http://users.adelphia.net/~lilavois/Cosas/Reliability.htm
Bill Hobba - 28 Apr 2005 00:07 GMT
> To Bill,
>
> Just read the many postings on this newsgroup which question various aspects
> of relativity.
> For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed
> reasoning of relativists.

You wrote that honest physicists have been questioning relativity ever since
its inception.  Only some posters on this newsgroup are physicists and of
those that are none I am aware of questions relativity - certainly none
claim it is not understandable.  The people that question it are those like
yourself who do not understand it.

> I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the need
> for such a newsgroup.
> For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of
> contemporary biology.

That is because contemporary biology is not counter intuitive.

> Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other scientific theories,  have
> been criticized and disagreed with ever since he first proposed them.

Name one contemporary physicist that believes it is not understandable.

> In
> addition, Einstein never agreed with the basics of quantum mechanics which
> were based on HIS theories!

I suggest you acquaint yourself with what Einstein really thought of QM by
reading the preface he wrote to Bohms classic book.  He always agreed it was
a valid theory - he just thought is was an interim one and further
developments will fix his issues.  He understood the theory - unlike your
total lack of understanding of relativity.

Bill

> "God does not play dice."
>     Einstein's objection to the quantum theory, in which physical events can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Len.
> .........................................................
Bilge - 28 Apr 2005 11:07 GMT
Len Gaasenbeek:
>To Bill,
>
>Just read the many postings on this newsgroup which question various aspects
>of relativity.
>For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed
>reasoning of relativists.

 No, it's about relativity.


>I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the need
>for such a newsgroup.
>For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of
>contemporary biology.

 You're an idiot, len.


>Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other scientific theories,  have
>been criticized and disagreed with ever since he first proposed them.  In
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Len.
>.........................................................
Ben Rudiak-Gould - 28 Apr 2005 15:30 GMT
Len Gaasenbeek wrote:
>For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed
>reasoning of relativists.

>No, it's about relativity.

Well... actually, this group was created for the specific purpose of
attracting crackpots away from sci.physics, so the OP has a point.

Len Gaasenbeek wrote:
>I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the
>need for such a newsgroup.
>For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of
>contemporary biology.

Yes there is: talk.origins.

The whole talk.* hierarchy was created for pretty much the same reason as
s.p.relativity.

-- Ben
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.