Re: This Newsgroup.
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Len Gaasenbeek - 27 Apr 2005 14:42 GMT To Bill,
Just read the many postings on this newsgroup which question various aspects of relativity. For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed reasoning of relativists.
I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the need for such a newsgroup. For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of contemporary biology.
Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other scientific theories, have been criticized and disagreed with ever since he first proposed them. In addition, Einstein never agreed with the basics of quantum mechanics which were based on HIS theories!
"God does not play dice." Einstein's objection to the quantum theory, in which physical events can only be known in terms of probabilities. It is sometimes quoted as 'God does not play dice with the Universe'. Albert Einstein, Creator and Rebel (B. Hoffman), Ch. 10.
Len. .........................................................
John C. Polasek - 27 Apr 2005 18:15 GMT >To Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Len. >......................................................... No quantum theory did not begin with Einstein, it began with Schrodinger's equation Epsi = Hpsi, a mystery equation in that it was perhaps 5 years before anyone decided what psi was (probability density).
John Polasek http://www.dualspace.net
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 27 Apr 2005 19:53 GMT [snip]
> Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other > scientific theories, have been criticized and > disagreed with ever since he first proposed them. [snip]
This would not have happened if any relativist had ever explained such things as the following:
Frame A [3]---------rod-----------[3] E1 E2 [4]---------rod-----------[5] Frame B
What is the direct physical cause of the above disagreement re the times of the two events? ([X] = clock at the event)
Dirk Van de moortel - 27 Apr 2005 20:15 GMT > [snip] > > Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > above disagreement re the times of the > two events? ([X] = clock at the event) The physical cause can probably be found in the inner workings of the green goo inside your skull: http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html
Dirk Vdm
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 28 Apr 2005 16:55 GMT --in essence, an admission that he does not have an explanation--
So, let's try an easier question:
Does Dirky agree with the picture (which shows the math of SR) that most of SR's clocks are asynchronous?
Dirk Van de moortel - 28 Apr 2005 18:37 GMT > --in essence, an admission that he does not > have an explanation-- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does Dirky agree with the picture (which shows the > math of SR) that most of SR's clocks are asynchronous? How would someone who is stupid enough to write something like this http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html expect to understand any answer to any question?
Dirk Vdm
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 28 Apr 2005 19:39 GMT Something about how he copped out on easier question 2.
So let's drop it down to the even easier question 3:
We all know that one frame can find events E1 and E2 to be simultaneous, whereas another will find them happening at different times (just as my initial picture depicted), but what we do NOT know is WHY?
Perhaps Dirky-boy can scrape together enough brain cells to tell us why simultaneity is relative in SR. (But he has to remember that we need a physical cause, not a math one or some gibberish about "That's the nature of our 4D universe.")
Dirk Van de moortel - 28 Apr 2005 20:40 GMT > Something about how he copped out on easier question 2. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > remember that we need a physical cause, not a math one or > some gibberish about "That's the nature of our 4D universe.") Of course we know why, in the sense that it is a direct consequence of the combination of (1) the way we physically -operationally- define and measure distances and times of remote events, and (2) the assumption, based on experience, that light speed is observer independent. And, no, we don't know WHY we experience (2). And yes, you don't understand (2) and therefore don't accept (2) but that is entirely your problem.
I recently explained (1) in detail to sub-morons like Jim Greenfield, Mitch Raemsch and Henry Wilson and probably to some others as well. They are all just about as stupid and blockheaded as you are, so you can work for it and use google to find the details. When you find it and don't understand it either, feel free to imitate these idiots by ignoring it and continuing your little rant in a some new thread, just like you have been doing here since at least 1996: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/425 3f5abdaa5b29f/0030b767aa748b7c Look carefully: the 3 biggest and longest lasting usenet crackpots are there: Ken Seto, Louis Savain and you, Brian D. Jones (aka Cadwgan Gedrych aka Martin Miller aka Edward Travis aka Ron Aikas aka Roy Royce aka John Reid aka SRdude).
But before you say anything, explain to me what is so utterly wrong and stupid in this one: http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html What makes you think that an imbecile like you would understand *anything* beyond 1+1=2?
Dirk Vdm
cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com - 29 Apr 2005 14:35 GMT > > We all know that one frame can find events > > E1 and E2 to be simultaneous, whereas another > > will find them happening at different times > > (just as my initial picture depicted), but > > what we do NOT know is WHY?
> Of course we know why, in the sense that it is a > direct consequence of the combination of (1) the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And yes, you don't understand (2) and therefore don't > accept (2) but that is entirely your problem. Well, now we are finally getting somewhere; however, your (2) is ambiguous, and that is a big problem since (2) is 50% of your given answer.
If (2) means "light's round-trip speed per one clock," then we can all agree that this speed is observer independent, but if (2) means "light's one-way speed per two clocks," then, 'Houston, we have a problem' because this involves the infamous clock synchronization.
Since your (1) pertained to a definition of synchronization, it could be assumed that your (2) pertained only to light's one-way speed per two clocks, but you didn't pin this down. I will go ahead with (2) = one-way speed.
You claimed that we do not know why we experience (2), but at the same time you said that it was due to a definition; can you see that this is self-contradictory?
Here is why we experience (2): If clocks are forced by definition to obtain one-way light speed invariance, then clocks will obtain one-way light speed invariance, but such circularity is not physics.
Let me put this in simple, direct terms, as follows:
Clocks C1r and C2r are x distance apart on a railway track.
Clocks C1t and C2t are at the ends of a train that is x long.
When both C1 clocks are coincident in passing, and both read zero, a light signal is sent out from them toward the C2 clocks, which are to be started by the signal.
Train C1t[0]----------X--------[-]C2t --> ----~~~>light signal C1r[0]----------X--------[-]C2r Rail Since the train moves on, the signal reaches C2r before it reaches C2t, as shown:
Train --------t[x/c]----------X--------[-]C2t --> -------------------------->light signal C1r[x/c]----------X-------[x/c]C2r Rail
At this point, Einstein's definition of clock synchronization says to place the pre-chosen time x/c on clock C2r, as shown.
This may or may not be the correct time because the Earth and the rails may be moving toward or away from the signal, but we will give Einstein a break by assuming that this time is OK for the signal's journey.
But we CANNOT allow Einstein to place this SAME time x/c on the train clock C2t because it is perfectly clear that this clock was NOT hit by the signal when C2r was hit.
Here is Einstein's definition applied to the train clocks:
Train -------------------t[x/c+]----------X--------[x/c]C2t --> ---------------------------------------------->signal C1r[x/c+]----------X-------[x/c+]C2r Rail
The above little picture shows that the train clocks are not synchronous under Einstein's definition.
It also shows that the clocks of all other frames will also not be synchronous under Einstein's definition.
It further shows that these other frames' clocks will be DIFFERENTLY asynchronous because all of the other frames will move differently.
Moreover, the picture tell us that only ONE frame's clocks will be synchronous under Einstein's definition. (As noted above, we assumed that this was the rail frame in this case.)
What can now be said about Einstein's definition?
[1] It has no basis because nothing in nature says one-way light-speed invariance. (Einstein's "invariance" was given only by definition, not by experiment.)
[2] It produces asynchronous clocks in general.
[3] Asynchronous clocks cannot make correct measurements.
[4] Therefore, all 2-clock measurements in special relativity are incorrect, including the "measurement" of light's one-way, two-clock speed.
[5] Simultaneity is not really relative because it is caused by the asynchronicity of Einstein's clocks, as follows:
[3]-----Frame A------[3] E1 E2 [4]-----Frame B------[5]
Frame A finds the events to be simultaneous, but Frame B does not find them to be simultaneous. Notice that this cannot be blamed on the events themselves because events are observer-independent. It is clear from the picture that the cause of Einstein's relative simultaneity is simply the use of his asynchronous clocks (in all frames but one).
Having seen invariance in the round-trip, one-clock case, Einstein falsely extrapolated this to the one-way case, where, as we have seen, invariance cannot occur experimentally (as in the round-trip case), but must be given via definition. a definition which makes clocks **asynchronous** and therefore incorrectly related.
We do not need special relativity and its asynchronous clocks.
We need synchronous clocks.
Given synchronous clocks, we could correctly measure light's one-way speed.
Since this speed would vary with frame velocity, we could us it to calculate our speed through space.
End of story.
Dirk Van de moortel - 29 Apr 2005 15:49 GMT > > <cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1114713560.979481.45060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > your (2) is ambiguous, and that is a big problem since > (2) is 50% of your given answer. You stupid fart, it is not ambiguous for the very reason that it is an *assumption*. I told you that you wouldn't understand that.
But I will now repeat my last lines of my previous messsage:
"But before you say anything, explain to me what is so utterly wrong and stupid in this one: http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MathProof.html What makes you think that an imbecile like you would understand *anything* beyond 1+1=2?
Dirk Vdm
Traveler - 28 Apr 2005 20:56 GMT Dick Van de merde wrote:
><cadwgan_gedrych@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Dirk Van de moortel wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >And yes, you don't understand (2) and therefore don't >accept (2) but that is entirely your problem. IOW, Van de merde, you don't know jack sh.t. Oh, BTW, did Uncle Al and John Baez take turn f.cking you in the a.s last night? :-D
Louis Savain
The Silver Bullet: Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix it http://users.adelphia.net/~lilavois/Cosas/Reliability.htm
Bill Hobba - 28 Apr 2005 00:07 GMT > To Bill, > > Just read the many postings on this newsgroup which question various aspects > of relativity. > For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed > reasoning of relativists. You wrote that honest physicists have been questioning relativity ever since its inception. Only some posters on this newsgroup are physicists and of those that are none I am aware of questions relativity - certainly none claim it is not understandable. The people that question it are those like yourself who do not understand it.
> I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the need > for such a newsgroup. > For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of > contemporary biology. That is because contemporary biology is not counter intuitive.
> Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other scientific theories, have > been criticized and disagreed with ever since he first proposed them. Name one contemporary physicist that believes it is not understandable.
> In > addition, Einstein never agreed with the basics of quantum mechanics which > were based on HIS theories! I suggest you acquaint yourself with what Einstein really thought of QM by reading the preface he wrote to Bohms classic book. He always agreed it was a valid theory - he just thought is was an interim one and further developments will fix his issues. He understood the theory - unlike your total lack of understanding of relativity.
Bill
> "God does not play dice." > Einstein's objection to the quantum theory, in which physical events can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Len. > ......................................................... Bilge - 28 Apr 2005 11:07 GMT Len Gaasenbeek:
>To Bill, > >Just read the many postings on this newsgroup which question various aspects >of relativity. >For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed >reasoning of relativists. No, it's about relativity.
>I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the need >for such a newsgroup. >For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of >contemporary biology. You're an idiot, len.
>Moreover Einstein's theories, unlike most other scientific theories, have >been criticized and disagreed with ever since he first proposed them. In [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Len. >......................................................... Ben Rudiak-Gould - 28 Apr 2005 15:30 GMT Len Gaasenbeek wrote:
>For that matter, this is what this newsgroup is all about, the flawed >reasoning of relativists.
>No, it's about relativity. Well... actually, this group was created for the specific purpose of attracting crackpots away from sci.physics, so the OP has a point.
Len Gaasenbeek wrote:
>I can't think of any other scientific discipline which has found the >need for such a newsgroup. >For example, there is no newsgroup which questions the validity of >contemporary biology. Yes there is: talk.origins.
The whole talk.* hierarchy was created for pretty much the same reason as s.p.relativity.
-- Ben
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