Derivation of Maxwell's equations
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gsax - 23 Jul 2005 05:44 GMT Hi
I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in deriving his famous equations...
Is this correct? if yes, then were his derivations re-written after Einstein killed the ether?
Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations?
thanks Gsax
Paul Stowe - 23 Jul 2005 05:52 GMT >Hi > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which >he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations? http://www.vacuum-physics.com/Maxwell/maxwell_oplf.pdf
Paul Stowe
gsax - 23 Jul 2005 05:58 GMT > >Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which > >he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations? > > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/Maxwell/maxwell_oplf.pdf thanks for the link, Gsax
The Ghost In The Machine - 23 Jul 2005 17:00 GMT In sci.physics, Paul Stowe <ps@acompletelyjunkaddress.net> wrote on Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:52:28 GMT <ddi3e193sdnaf3rhdsefjndus2b2j14qv1@4ax.com>:
>>Hi >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Paul Stowe Interesting. Is there a copy of this which has been transcribed into HTML or PDF as text and illustrations, as opposed to what appears to be captured by either a copier or scanner and reproduced as a series of bitmaps? Equation 165, for instance, got rather muddled.
Also, small bits of the text got chopped off on some of the pages (e.g., the first page has something).
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net It's still legal to go .sigless.
FrediFizzx - 23 Jul 2005 20:19 GMT | In sci.physics, Paul Stowe | <ps@acompletelyjunkaddress.net> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] | Also, small bits of the text got chopped off on some of the | pages (e.g., the first page has something). It is being very slowly worked on. ;-) Care to volunteer some time to compare the new Word document to the original and make corrections? I am about half-way thru the first part of four parts. ;-)
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
FrediFizzx - 24 Jul 2005 04:57 GMT | In sci.physics, Paul Stowe | <ps@acompletelyjunkaddress.net> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] | copier or scanner and reproduced as a series of bitmaps? | Equation 165, for instance, got rather muddled. Man, you are a fast reader; already to the last equation! I have in the Word doc for eq. 165,
theta = 90deg(r mu i Z z/(sqrt(pi) s^3/2 Lambda^2 V))
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
The Ghost In The Machine - 24 Jul 2005 07:00 GMT In sci.physics, FrediFizzx <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:57:08 -0700 <3kgho9Ftqk8cU1@individual.net>:
> | In sci.physics, Paul Stowe > | <ps@acompletelyjunkaddress.net> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > theta = 90deg(r mu i Z z/(sqrt(pi) s^3/2 Lambda^2 V)) (grin)
Actually, I was just skimming over the stuff. I'd have to wade through it to really understand it in gory detail.
Interesting stuff, though.
> FrediFizzx > > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf > or postscript > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net It's still legal to go .sigless.
FrediFizzx - 24 Jul 2005 08:18 GMT | In sci.physics, FrediFizzx | <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] | | Interesting stuff, though. Yep, pretty intense. Not something I expected for a paper from 1861. ;-) I am only thru 1/2 of the first part intense studying-wise. If you run across any more muddled equations or words that you are interested in, send me an email. My email address is good and I can look them up in the Word doc which is mostly correct I hope. Did you find where he derives the speed of light yet?
The original scans: courtesy of Paul Stowe, compilation of the single page PDF's to a single PDF file: courtesy of Timo Nieminen, Word doc via Word Perfect doc: courtesy of Barry Mingst aka greywolf42. One of these years I will finish checking the Word doc and post a PDF of it. Promise. ;-) Actually, I believe Barry posted most of the entire text (no equations) to the newsgroups. You should be able to find it via googlegroup search.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
nightbat - 24 Jul 2005 11:11 GMT nightbat wrote
> >Hi > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Paul Stowe nightbat
Thanks Paul for your Professor Maxwell paper link and forwarded to alt.astronomy and Officer oc for his examination on theoretical basis for referred mathematical based equations as applied to a medium and referenced pressure or tension deductions.
ponder on, the nightbat
Double-A - 24 Jul 2005 13:59 GMT > nightbat wrote > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > ponder on, > the nightbat Thanks nightbat, and Paul.
This is a good reference.
This is one of Maxwell's earlier papers.
As far as I know, the only rewriting was to put Maxwell's equations into vector notation.
Double-A
nightbat - 24 Jul 2005 14:51 GMT nightbat wrote
> > nightbat wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Double-A nightbat
Yes, this paper is a profound work of incredible importance. The one I can surmise that Dr. Tesla used to derived his wireless invention foundations. The Paper also has references to Officer oc's for Wolter's perceived hydrostatic pressure of the medium. This Maxwell reference before the null physical MM experiment and quantum theory. Maxwell speaks mechanically of the visualization of invisible smaller wheels acting as mediators between the larger visual macro mass ones. Brilliant evaluation of the background field as it relates to electronic cohesion, electricity wave basis, magnetic correlation's, and field tension or pressure. I now have a clearer picture of original basis of Tesla's energy understanding of the medium for he made it a habit of reading anything and everything connected to it. It affirms my base field theory and I am satisfied that this great theorist perceived it way back when too. Much can be ascertained from this great work. The breath of it is unimaginable for how advanced it was for its time. Most of the greats and foundation mathematicians are referred in it or actually cited.
ponder on, the nightbat
Paul Stowe - 24 Jul 2005 15:23 GMT >> nightbat wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > This is one of Maxwell's earlier papers. His foundational paper. He wrote an earlier, developmental version in 1855? called "On Faraday's Lines of Force" but this one completed this.
Note Figure 2 on the sheet following page 348, Part I. Then note the petri dish photograph of exactly this pattern established exactly as predicted by Maxwell. See:
http://www.oregonbd.org/Class/Mod2.htm
These should be called Maxwell's Cells NOT Raleigh-Benard cells since, a far as I can determine, Maxwell was the first one to predict there pattern (Hexagonal) and existence.
> As far as I know, the only rewriting was to put Maxwell's equations > into vector notation. Tell this to Hobba... He seems to think that re-interpretation somehow = re-writing...
Paul stowe
Bilge - 23 Jul 2005 08:12 GMT gsax:
>Hi > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Is this correct? if yes, then were his derivations re-written after >Einstein killed the ether? Sure. Write down the dirac lagrangian:
L = \Psibar(p/ - m)\Psi
p/ == \gamma^u p_u, where the \gamma^u are dirac matrices.
Require that to be locally gauge invariant, i.e., invariant under the change of phase, \Psi -> \Psi' = \Psi\exp(-iS), where S == S(x^u) is a function of the spacetime variables, x^u. Then, since p_u = id_u, (I've set \hbar = 1, since it isn't relevant here), where d_u == d/dx^u. Then, the new lagrangian,
L' = \Psibar'(i\gamma^u d_u - m)\Psi'
will contain an additional term due to the derivative:
L' = \Psibar(i\gamma^u d_u - m)\Psi + \Psibar\gamma^u\psi d_u S
We can, however, define a gauge covariant derivative, D_u = d_u + ieA_u, such that it cancels the additional term (noether's theorem). This gives us the gauge covariant dirac lagrangian:
L = \Psibar'(i\gamma^u D_u - m)\Psi'
To obtain maxwell's equations, one now just takes the commutator of the covariant derivatives:
[D_u, D_v] = [d_u + ieA_u, d_v + ieA_v]
= (d_u + ieA_u)(d_v + ieA_v) - (d_v + ieA_v)( d_u + ieA_u)
Most of the terms cancel leaving just the faraday tensor:
F_uv = ie (d_u A_v - d_v A_u)
Maxwell's equations in manifestly covariant form are then the equations d_u F^uv = j^v, where j^v is the four-vector current j^v = (\rho, J). That can be separated into the inhomogeneous maxwell equations.
>Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which >he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations? Probably, but the theory wasn't physically viable.
Chris - 23 Jul 2005 09:53 GMT His idea was orinially based on an aether consisting of springs and wieghts to get his ideas in place.
The abstract form used things like the dispacement current (dD/dt) taken from electrostatics and the current loop from current electricity.
It is of course rubbish, because there is no magnetic field, but it works (just). The photon model is the better model as it fits better with quantum mechanics. The amplitude of EMR being the number of photons and the energy is given by the planc law E=hf.
In this way you sidestep arguments about radiation and particles. An accelerating electron changes its energy in quanta and emits a photon each time with an enrgy given by E=hf. The energy change of the Electron (even in a radio transmitter) is given by quantum mechanics. Many electrons mean many photons and one electron in the atenna of the transmitter connects to one electron in the atenna of the reciever by the photon with is the imaginary connector. In reality it is a quantum mechanical connection like a fyneman diagram.
Phumph has spoke!
Chris.
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > thanks > Gsax Martin Hogbin - 23 Jul 2005 14:51 GMT > The abstract form used things like the dispacement current (dD/dt) taken > from electrostatics and the current loop from current electricity. > > It is of course rubbish, because there is no magnetic field, but it works > (just). That is a bit hard on a theory that has revolutionised human life.
Martin Hogbin
sue jahn - 23 Jul 2005 16:36 GMT > > The abstract form used things like the dispacement current (dD/dt) taken > > from electrostatics and the current loop from current electricity. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Martin Hogbin Terrorist attacks and Hitler's reign have revolutionised human life too. Can we use your logic to go easy on the little fellers and perhaps carve some of their philosophy on one face of the Great Pyramid of Giza?
<<... we could say that our classical theory of electromagnetism breaks down on very small length-scales due to quantum effects. Unfortunately, the quantum mechanical version of electromagnetism (quantum electrodynamics, or QED, for short) suffers from the same infinities in the self-energies of particles as the classical version. There is a prescription, called renormalization, for steering round these infinities, and getting finite answers which agree with experiments to extraordinary accuracy. However, nobody really understands why this prescription works. The problem of the infinite self-energies of elementary charged particles is still unresolved. >> http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node56.html
:o) Sue...
Martin Hogbin - 23 Jul 2005 22:50 GMT > > > The abstract form used things like the dispacement current (dD/dt) taken > > > from electrostatics and the current loop from current electricity. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Terrorist attacks and Hitler's reign have revolutionised human life too. Not nearly as much as electromagnetism.
> Can we use your logic... Not my logic, your rather warped logic.
Martin Hogbin
sue jahn - 23 Jul 2005 11:32 GMT > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > thanks > Gsax Before formulating field equations it is helpful to study where Maxwell could have ... ahhh "done better" :o) << 76. A. K. T. Assis and K. H. Wiederkehr, "Weber quoting Maxwell," 56. A. K. T. Assis, "The meaning of the constant c in Weber's electrodynamics," 36. A. K. T. Assis, "Gravitation as a fourth order electromagnetic effect," 55. A. K. T. Assis and H. Torres Silva, "Comparison between Weber's electrodynamics and classical electrodynamics," 72. A. K. T. Assis, "On the first electromagnetic measurement of the velocity of light by Wilhelm Weber and Rudolf Kohlrausch," >> http://www.ifi.unicamp.br/~assis/wpapers.htm
http://tw.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0506181 Darwin http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0204034 Coulomb gauge
Advanced potential: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22advanced+potential%22+green&btnG=Search
Sue...
Uncle Al - 23 Jul 2005 17:51 GMT > Hi > > I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in > deriving his famous equations... Interconnected cogs were the mechanical analogy he used. Look it up. Nobody is keeping it a secret.
> Is this correct? if yes, then were his derivations re-written after > Einstein killed the ether? Maxwell's equations are covariant right out of the box. When the thing was completed the aether had vanished, like balancing a checkbook. Debits and credits mutually cancelled.
> Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which > he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations? Library. Big rooms filled with books. Maxwell is late 1800s, and that is sufficiently contemporary for complete archives and learned commentaries.
http://www.fuckinggoogleit.com/
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Bill Hobba - 24 Jul 2005 00:14 GMT > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which > he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations? You already had a reply from bilge explaining the modern view from local gauge invariance. The following also explores it - http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/DBailey/SubAtomic/Lectures/LectF1 3/Lect13.htm Also it can be derived from Coulombs law and SR - http://www.cse.secs.oakland.edu/haskell/SpecialRelativity.htm
Thanks Bill
> thanks > Gsax Paul Stowe - 24 Jul 2005 02:07 GMT >> Hi >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Also it can be derived from Coulombs law and SR - >http://www.cse.secs.oakland.edu/haskell/SpecialRelativity.htm Let the original poster note, you did not address, or answer, any of his original questions.
Note: Question 1,
"I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in deriving his famous equations... Is this correct?
Answer, definitely yes...
Question 2,
"If yes, then were his derivations re-written after Einstein killed the ether?"
Answer No, they are still classically formulated. However, modern treatments no longer use his original quaternion format...
Question 3,
"Also is there someplace I can get hold of his original paper in which he(Maxwell) assumes the presence of ether in deriving his equations?"
Answer, Link previously given...
Talk about avoidance & double talk, sheez
Paul Stowe
Bill Hobba - 24 Jul 2005 03:10 GMT > >> Hi > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Let the original poster note, you did not address, or answer, any > of his original questions. I answered:
'If yes, then were his derivations re-written after Einstein killed the ether?'. Is simple English comprehension beyond you?
Bill
> Note: Question 1, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Paul Stowe Bilge - 25 Jul 2005 01:39 GMT Paul Stowe:
> Question 2, > > "If yes, then were his derivations re-written after Einstein killed > the ether?" > > Answer No, Obviousy you are wrong, since I just demonstrated such a derivation from a theory that predicts electromagnetic effects that cannot be obtained from maxwell's equations.
> they are still classically formulated. However, modern I just formulated them using relativistic quantum mechanics.
> treatments no longer use his original quaternion format... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Talk about avoidance & double talk, sheez As opposed to blatantly false statements you made above?
markwh04@yahoo.com - 29 Jul 2005 20:44 GMT > I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in > deriving his famous equations... Why not just read the Treatise, itself?
> Is this correct? if yes, then were his derivations re-written after > Einstein killed the ether? Maxwell explicitly set out in the Treatise that everything set out in it was to remain neutral with regard to the issue of whether the vacuum was actually a vacuum or a plenum.
"Aether" is not used by Maxwell. His theory has little or nothing to do with anything that goes under the name "aether". The underlying theory (which he set out to remain neutral with regard to in all sections following) was explicitly set out in chapter 1: it stated that the vacuum is a dielectric capable of polarization (i.e. vacuum polarization) and in which charge screening will take place to smear out point source infinities (as explicitly pointed out in sections with titles like "why there are no infinite point or line sources").
The equations don't come from anything. They're a formulation of the empirical laws that had been gathered to that time -- plus the element of linking up the material current into a "total current" with the latter including a contribution from the field (explained in virtue of the vacuum being a dielectric), and satisfying the continuity law.
As he pointed out, the issue of what (if anything) comprises the vacuum is left unresolved.
What you're calling "aether" is a laymanizing of a complex of unrelated ideas that have little to do with the latter-day revisionistic accounting of Maxwell. One of those ideas in the complex is the natural frame of reference associated with the vacuum.
The one thing Maxwell DID derive based on THAT idea was the particular form of the constitutive relations, which in modern notation would have read: D = epsilon_0 (E + G x B) where G is the velocity relative to the frame defined by the vacuum. (The corresponding relation for B and H would therefore read B = mu_0 (H - G x D), which was briefly mentioned in the Dover edition of the treatise).
This, however, is, in fact, NOT what is currently known as Maxwell's theory -- which has, instead, the constitutive relations D = epsilon_0 E; B = mu_0 H. (Which comes from Lorentz).
In fact, THIS discrepancy was what Eintein was referring specifically to 100 years ago when recounting the recent developments of the theory. Einstein's reference to "aether" was actually the reference to Maxwell's G. The point made is that -- after finishing out the analysis of the behavior of the field under a change of frame of reference (an analysis which Maxwell only half-carried out in the Treatise, and the incompleteness of which represents a serious gaping hole in the treatise); if one assumes the Lorentz relations are valid -- as they are empirically -- instead of the "aether frame" relations involving G, then the whole need for G is gone and we're back to all frames being equivalent.
The two theories D = epsilon_0 (E + G x B); B = mu_0 (H - G x D) vs. D = epsilon_0 E; B = mu_0 H are NOT empirically equivalent. The former -- which is the one which would be invariant under Galilean Relativity and true if Newtonian Physics were true -- is seriously out of kilter with the reality. Swimming pools, for instance, would probably start to assume weird colorations because of the dependence of D on B. The latter -- which is the one invariant under Poincare' Relativity and true if Special Relativity holds -- is the ones you actually see. Hence, no "aether frame".
The idea of a frame and a G, nonetheless, returns in a different guise. If the vacuum, itself, is a thermal state (as it clear is, since outer space has a non-zero temperature of 3 degrees kelvin filled with the CMB thermal radiation), then there IS, in fact, a natural velocity, G, associated with it and a natural frame ... since every thermal state identifies a natural frame of reference.
So, the whole notion of "aether frame" turns out to be a complete red herring, completely ORTHOGONAL to any questions about Galilean vs. Poincare' Relativity. It has nothing to do with nothing, since it applies or can apply equally in both settings.
sue jahn - 28 Jul 2005 21:31 GMT > > I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in > > deriving his famous equations... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > latter including a contribution from the field (explained in virtue of > the vacuum being a dielectric) Maxwell used Weber's values for propagation along a wire in free space where no material entity to support t permeability exist.
This is in effect the assumption of an ether and is well represented by the need to assume retarded potential.
Your account below of how Einsten approached the problem and comments and references about modern interpretations of epsion and mu should be helpful to many.
Sue...
, and satisfying the continuity law.
> As he pointed out, the issue of what (if anything) comprises the vacuum > is left unresolved. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Poincare' Relativity. It has nothing to do with nothing, since it > applies or can apply equally in both settings. FrediFizzx - 30 Jul 2005 05:17 GMT | > I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in | > deriving his famous equations... | | Why not just read the Treatise, itself? Because the "Treatise" is not when or where he did the "derivation". It was in "On Physical Lines of Force".
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/Maxwell/maxwell_oplf.pdf
| > Is this correct? if yes, then were his derivations re-written after | > Einstein killed the ether? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | "Aether" is not used by Maxwell. His theory has little or nothing to | do with anything that goes under the name "aether". Someone has not read "On Physical Lines of Force". He certainly used it before the "Treatise". IMHO, his model foreshadowed the quantum "vacuum".
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
sue jahn - 29 Jul 2005 07:20 GMT > | > I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in > | > deriving his famous equations... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > before the "Treatise". IMHO, his model foreshadowed the quantum > "vacuum". Then you can probably explain why we always measure magnetic field attenuation as 1/d^3 and electric field attenuation as 1/d^2 but these to two curve converge to the same value. http://www.conformity.com/0102reflectionsfig3.gif From http://www.conformity.com/0102reflections.html
Sue...
> FrediFizzx > > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf > or postscript > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps FrediFizzx - 30 Jul 2005 07:42 GMT | > | > I read in some place that Maxwell assumed the existance of ether in | > | > deriving his famous equations... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] | | Sue... Ever heard of a dipole? Imagine what a photon might "see".
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
sue jahn - 29 Jul 2005 08:09 GMT > | "FrediFizzx" <fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:3l0d5sF107kctU1@individual.net... [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Ever heard of a dipole? Yes << Imagine what a photon might "see".>>
I suppose they see faires. Do any of them wear glasses? :o)
No need to imagine. We have measurements. That is what those rooms with carbon egg crates on the wall are for. << Note that the equations define the boundary in wavelengths, implying that the boundary moves in space with the frequency of the antenna's emissions. Judging from available literature, the distance where the 1/r and 1/r2 terms are equal is the most commonly quoted near-field/far-field boundary. This result may seem to wrap up the problem rather nicely. Unfortunately, the boundary definition in reality isn't this straightforward. Examine Table 1, which contains a large set of far-field definitions from the literature. It's disconcerting to first make a point with a simple mathematical derivation, only to have reality disprove the theory.>> http://www.edn.com/article/CA150828.html
Better graphics if you download: http://www.edn.com/contents/images/150828.pdf
Sue...
> FrediFizzx > > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf > or postscript > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
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