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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / August 2005



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the 1st law and reference frames

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francisco - 30 Aug 2005 08:03 GMT
let A be a passenger in a car. A is tightly held in the seat by the seat
belt. B is standing along the side of the road and sees A, the car, and a
book that is on the seat next to A all moving together at 22 m/s. if A and
the car suddenly slow to 20 m/s, in the absence of friction with the seat
the book continues to move. relative to A, there is no apparent force on the
book that is pushing it forward, but it appears to start moving, in
violation of newton's first law. but relative to B, the book continues to
move at 22 m/s and detects no violation of newton's first law.

each observer, A in the car, and B standing on the ground, defines a
reference frame. a reference frame requires a coordinate system and a set of
clocks, which enable A or B to measure positions, velocities, and
accelarations in A's or B's particular reference frame.

A and B reach different conclusion about the acceleration of the book. A
concluded that it accelerates foward, while B concluded that its
acceleration is zero.

in general, the acceleration of a body depends on the reference frame to
which it is measured. however, the laws of classical mechanics are valid
only in a certain set of reference frames in which all observers would
measure the same acceleration for a moving body. this set of reference
frames is called inertial frames.

the tendency of a body to remain at rest or in uniform linear motion is
called inertia, and newton's first law is often called the law of inertia
because it allows us to choose this special family of reference frames if we
express the first law as follows:

if the net force acting on a body is zero, then it is possible to find a set
of reference frames in which that body has no acceleration.

from physics by resnick, halliday, and krane
DarkD - 30 Aug 2005 08:13 GMT
> from physics by resnick, halliday, and krane

Is there a point to posting this? How many here weren't taught this in what,
grade 9 physics?
Bill Hobba - 30 Aug 2005 12:49 GMT
>> from physics by resnick, halliday, and krane
>
> Is there a point to posting this? How many here weren't taught this in
> what,
> grade 9 physics?

There is no point - he is simply a troll.

Thanks
Bill
rbwinn3@juno.com - 30 Aug 2005 15:57 GMT
Bill,
     I am sure he did not intend to offend anyone by posting something
actually provable.
Robert B. winn
Bill Hobba - 31 Aug 2005 01:37 GMT
> Bill,
>      I am sure he did not intend to offend anyone by posting something
> actually provable.
> Robert B. winn

His tactic is simply to cut an paste often off topic rubbish, and in some
cases even distort it, to stir up trouble in this group.  See his other
posts such as how to arrive at x' = x - vt which is a deliberate distortion
of what Einstein wrote.

Bill
francisco - 30 Aug 2005 11:07 GMT
(a) according to the principle of relativity, the laws of physics (not just
the laws of classical mechanics, as stated below) are valid in all inertial
reference frames (enertial reference frames, as stated below, are those in
which all observers would  measure the same acceleration for a moving body).

(b) also, according to the principle of the constancy of the speed of light,
the speed of light in free space has the same value c in all inertial
reference frames (as defined below).

with respect to principle (b), let A, B, and C be three observer, each at
rest in their corresponding inertial reference frame. a flash of ligfht is
emitted by A, who observes the light to travel at speed c. the frame of B is
moving away from A at a speed of c/4. galilean kinematics predicts that B
measures the value c - c/4 = 3c/4. C is in a frame that is moving towards A
with  speed of c/4. according to galileo, C measures a speed of c + c/4 =
5c/4 for the speed of the light emitted by A. but according to principle
(b), all three observers measure the same speed c for the light pulse.

let A be a passenger in a car. A is tightly held in the seat by the seat
belt. B is standing along the side of the road and sees A, the car, and a
book that is on the seat next to A all moving together at 22 m/s. if A and
the car suddenly slow to 20 m/s, in the absence of friction with the seat
the book continues to move. relative to A, there is no apparent force on
the book that is pushing it forward, but it appears to start moving, in
violation of newton's first law. but relative to B, the book continues to
move at 22 m/s and detects no violation of newton's first law.

each observer, A in the car, and B standing on the ground, defines a
reference frame. a reference frame requires a coordinate system and a set of
clocks, which enable A or B to measure positions, velocities, and
accelarations in A's or B's particular reference frame.

A and B reach different conclusion about the acceleration of the book. A
concluded that it accelerates foward, while B concluded that its
acceleration is zero.

in general, the acceleration of a body depends on the reference frame to
which it is measured. however, the laws of classical mechanics are valid
only in a certain set of reference frames in which all observers would
measure the same acceleration for a moving body. this set of reference
frames is called inertial frames.

the tendency of a body to remain at rest or in uniform linear motion is
called inertia, and newton's first law is often called the law of inertia
because it allows us to choose this special family of reference frames if we
express the first law as follows:

if the net force acting on a body is zero, then it is possible to find a
set of reference frames in which that body has no acceleration. from physics
by resnick, halliday, and krane
rotchm@gmail.com - 31 Aug 2005 02:05 GMT
A few comments:

>with respect to principle (b), let A, B, and C be three observer, each at
>rest in their corresponding inertial reference frame. a flash of ligfht is
>emitted by A, who observes the light to travel at speed c.

The word "observes" here means "measures". In SR these two words are
equivalent (usually).
So, if A attempts to *measure* the speed of the flash of light, SR says
that he will obtain a value of c.

>the frame of B is moving away from A at a speed of c/4. galilean kinematics
>predicts that B measures the value c - c/4 = 3c/4.

No. Galilean kinematics predicts that the speed of light *will* be
3c/4; NOT *measured* to be 3c/4.
The word *measured* you used (or from where ever you got it...) is
misused. Do not mix the meanings of these words as it has been for many
decades....

---
If you want to be sure, then always doubt   }:-)
 
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