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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / October 2005



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Don't call black holes Black

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Nick - 31 Oct 2005 01:44 GMT
A black hole requires an infinite
Einstein shift to emitted light due
to time ending.

But look at this closely: if there is
an infinite gravitational redshift to
light emitted then the theory predicts
the existence of an infinite light wave
or energyless light. Light emitted at
the event horizon would be infinite in
size and would have no energy. Where is
it going to fit?

If time doesn't end you can't have a
"black hole." You only have a Dark Hole
where light is redshifted finitely.

Mitch Raemsch  -- Light Falls --
Mark Martin - 31 Oct 2005 01:52 GMT
> A black hole requires an infinite
> Einstein shift to emitted light due
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> "black hole." You only have a Dark Hole
> where light is redshifted finitely.

  ...Uh-huh.

-Mark Martin
maestro@ultrapiano.com - 31 Oct 2005 02:21 GMT
> A black hole requires an infinite
> Einstein shift to emitted light due
> to time ending.

A black hole doesn't have an associated 'end of time' - perhaps you're
referring to the event horizon of a black hole?  Energy is emitted from
a black hole (extremely slowly) because of Hawking radiation - if (as
happens because of the energy of the gravitational field) a particle
and its anti-particle happen to spontaneously come into existence near
the event horizon, the particle or anti-particle sometimes has
sufficient energy to escape from the black hole.

> But look at this closely: if there is
> an infinite gravitational redshift to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> size and would have no energy. Where is
> it going to fit?

But there isn't any infinite gravitational redshift that anyone knows
of.

> If time doesn't end you can't have a
> "black hole." You only have a Dark Hole
> where light is redshifted finitely.
>
> Mitch Raemsch  -- Light Falls --

Is Mitch Raemsch an author of fiction?
Nick - 31 Oct 2005 02:45 GMT
> > A black hole requires an infinite
> > Einstein shift to emitted light due
> > to time ending.
>
> A black hole doesn't have an associated 'end of time' -

Yes it does. And I can prove it.

In order for light to be captured it first must be infinitely
redshifted. And the redshift comes from "time" as Einstein said. This
is the theory of black holes. I say the redshift can only be finite.
Therefore there are no black holes.
Period.

perhaps you're
> referring to the event horizon of a black hole?  Energy is emitted from
> a black hole (extremely slowly) because of Hawking radiation - if (as
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Is Mitch Raemsch an author of fiction?
maestro@ultrapiano.com - 31 Oct 2005 02:55 GMT
> > > A black hole requires an infinite
> > > Einstein shift to emitted light due
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> is the theory of black holes. I say the redshift can only be finite.
> Therefore there are no black holes.

But if there are no black holes, how can a black hole have an 'end of
time'?
Nick - 31 Oct 2005 03:11 GMT
Like I said they don't exist. Neither.
maestro@ultrapiano.com - 31 Oct 2005 03:38 GMT
> Like I said they don't exist. Neither.

But black holes do exist, in our own galaxy for example.

You're saying that black holes have an associated 'end-of-time' and
therefore don't exist (if time had ended we wouldn't be here talking
about it, I suppose), and that what astronomers call 'black holes'
should really be called 'dark holes' which don't have an associated
end-of-time.

Suppose I said "pianos have an associated 'end-of-time', therefore
pianos don't exist, and that what musicians call pianos should really
be called qianos, which don't have an associated end-of-time" - would
you agree with that?
Nick - 31 Oct 2005 03:44 GMT
What is so called "back hole"is the existence
of the extreme of gravity. The extreme does
exist in our galaxy. Every galaxy has a Dark
Hole at its center as far as we know.

Time doesn't stop my friend. If it did there
would be nothing left.
maestro@ultrapiano.com - 31 Oct 2005 03:54 GMT
> What is so called "black hole" is the existence
> of the extreme of gravity. The extreme does
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Time doesn't stop my friend. If it did there
> would be nothing left.

Of course time doesn't stop because of black holes, of that there is no
doubt, but earlier you wrote:

> maes...@ultrapiano.com wrote:
> > > A black hole requires an infinite
> > > Einstein shift to emitted light due
> > > to time ending.

> > A black hole doesn't have an associated 'end of time' -

> Yes it does. And I can prove it.

Are you now saying that the extreme gravity at the centre of the black
hole is equivalent to the 'end of time'?
Nick - 31 Oct 2005 04:05 GMT
That time doesn't stop in black holes is
wrong.

As I explained time stopping creates the
infinite redshift at the surface. Without
this redshift you can't have a black hole.
It's the vail.

I know I had to reexplain this to you.
But you are a donut.
maestro@ultrapiano.com - 31 Oct 2005 04:44 GMT
> That time doesn't stop in black holes is
> wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I know I had to reexplain this to you.
> But you are a donut.

You are not right if you think that time stops in black holes.

There are no physically infinite things in the universe.  Black holes
exist independently of any infinite red shift, they are caused by the
accumulation of matter large enough that the gravitational force
exerted by the matter causes the surrounding space to distort and fold
back into itself.  Other than by Hawking radiation, matter and energy
cannot escape from a black hole.  But at the centre of a black hole,
the gravitational force, although extremely high, is not infinite.

Some theorists predict that our currently expanding universe will
expand forever, others that all the matter in the universe will
eventually collapse into one single black hole, with a "singularity" at
the end of the universe.

In the collapsing universe, all the space in the universe would also
end up folded into the black hole, and the universe would consist of
nothing but a vanishingly small 'dot', but even then, the gravitational
force would not be infinite, because the universe is not infinitely
large to begin with.

If, at the end of the collapsing universe scenario, the dot decreased
by half its size each second, it could continue to do that forever,
space-time would never cease to exist, and time would never stop.  Some
theorists reckon that the rate of collapse would accelerate, so for
example, the dot might take 1/2 a second to reduce in size by half,
then 1/4 of a second to reduce in size by half again, and at intervals
of 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 seconds and so on by half each time.  At the end of
1 second of this accelearting rate of collapse tne 'dot' at the end of
the universe would actually vanish!  Only then could one describe time
as having 'stopped', as spacetime would no longer exist.

Inside an ordinary black hole, time exists as per usual, as does the
space around it.
Sue... - 31 Oct 2005 06:14 GMT
> > That time doesn't stop in black holes is
> > wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> the universe would actually vanish!  Only then could one describe time
> as having 'stopped', as spacetime would no longer exist.

Space-time will exist as long as there is a mathematician
around to perform these transformations:
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/jk1/lectures/node13.html

Sue...

> Inside an ordinary black hole, time exists as per usual, as does the
> space around it.
Mahmoud In My Dinner Jacket - 31 Oct 2005 14:25 GMT
> Don't call black holes Black

Don't use this racist and fascist style.  Call such holes "green".
Mahmoud In My Dinner Jacket - 31 Oct 2005 14:27 GMT
> > Don't call black holes Black
>
> Don't use this racist and fascist style.  Call such holes "green".

Damn!  That stygmatizes the Vulcans.

OK, call them ultra-violet.  I don't think there are any races of THAT
color in the Universe.
 
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