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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / November 2005



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Non-expanding universe

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mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 15 Nov 2005 15:35 GMT
Non-expanding universe

Some arguments are given below.
Of course, the anti-Bigbangers are crackpots!  ;-)

Marcel Luttgens

----

The First "Crisis in Cosmology" Conference
held in Moncao, Portugal, 2005 June 23-25

(Source: MNASSA, vol 64, nos 9 & 10, p 144-151)

Hilton Ratcliffe
ratcliff@iafrica.com

The Editors have requested a mainstream
cosmologist to comment on this article,
bearing in mind its unorthodox viewpoint.
The rebuttal will appear in the November-
December issue of MNASSA.

In May 2004, a group of about 30 concerned scientists published an
open letter to the global scientific community in New Scientist in
which they protested the stranglehold of Big Bang theory on
cosmological research and funding. The letter was placed on the
Internet (http://www.cosmologystatement.org) and rapidly attracted
wide attention. It currently has about 300 signatories representing
scientists and researchers of disparate backgrounds, and has led
to a loose association now known as the Alternative Cosmology Group
(http://www.cosmology.info). The author was one of the early
signatories to the letter, and holding the view that the Big Bang
explanation of the Universe is scientifically untenable, patently
illogical, and without any solid observational support whatsoever,
became involved in the organisation of an international forum where
we could share ideas and plan our way forward. That idea became a
reality with the staging of the "First Crisis in Cosmology Conference"
(CCC-1) in the lovely, medieval walled village of Moncao, in far
northern Portugal, over three days in June of this year.

It was sponsored in part by the University of Minho in Braga (Portugal)

and the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin (Texas, USA).
Professor Jose Almeida of the Department of Physics at the University
of Minho was instrumental in the organisation and ultimate success
of an event that is now to be held annually. The conference was
arranged in three sessions. On the first day, papers were presented
on observations that challenge the present model, the second day dealt
with conceptual difficulties in the standard model, and we concluded
with alternative cosmological world-views. Since it is not practicable
here to review all the papers presented (some 34 in total, plus six
posters), I'll selectively confine my comments to those that interested
me particularly. The American Institute of Physics will publish the
proceedings of the conference in their entirety in due course for
those interested in the details.

First up was professional astronomer Dr Riccardo Scarpa of the
European Southern Observatory (Santiago, Chile). His job involves
working with the magnificent Very Large Telescope array at Paranal,
and I guess that makes him the envy of just about every astronomer
with blood in his veins! His paper was on Modified Newtonian Dynamics
(MOND), which I had eagerly anticipated and thoroughly appreciated.
MOND is a very exciting development in observational astronomy used
to make dark matter redundant in the explanation of cosmic
gravitational effects like the anomalous rotational speeds of galaxies.
Mordehai Milgrom of the Weizmann Institute (Israel) first noticed
that mass discrepancies in stellar systems are detected only when
the internal acceleration of gravity falls below the well-established
value a0 = 1.2 x 10^-8 cm?s^-2. The standard Newtonian
gravitational values fit perfectly above this threshold, and below a0
MOND posits a breakdown of Newton's law. The dependence then becomes
linear with an asymptotic value of acceleration a = sqrt((a0 g)), where
g is the Newtonian value. Scarpa has called this the weak gravitational
regime, and he and colleagues Marconi and Gilmozzi have applied it
extensively to globular clusters with 100% success. What impressed me
most was that the clear empirical basis of MOND has been thoroughly
tested, and is now in daily use by professional astronomers at what is
arguably the most sophisticated and advanced optical-infrared
observatory in the world. In practice, there is no need to invoke dark
matter. Quote from Riccardo: "Dark matter is the craziest idea we've
ever had in astronomy. It can appear when you need it, it can do what
you like, be distributed in any way you like. It is the fairy tale of
astronomy".

Big Bang theory depends critically on three first principles: that the
Universe is holistically and systematically expanding as per the
Friedmann model; that General Relativity correctly describes
gravitation; and that Milne's Cosmological Principle, which declares
that the Universe at some arbitrary "large scale" is isotropic and
homogeneous, is true. The falsification of any one of these principles
would lead to the catastrophic failure of the theory. We saw at the
conference that all three can be successfully challenged on the basis
of empirical science. Retired electrical engineer Tom Andrews presented
a novel approach to the validation (or rather, invalidation) of the
expanding Universe model. It is well known that type Ia supernovae
(SNe) show measurable anomalous dimming (with distance or remoteness
in time) in a flat expanding Universe model. Andrews used observational
data from two independent sets of measurements of brightest cluster
galaxies (defined as the brightest galaxy in a cluster). It was
expected, since the light from the SNe and the bright galaxies
traverses the same space to get to us, that the latter should also
be anomalously dimmed. They clearly are not. The orthodox explanation
for SNe dimming - that it is the result of the progressive expansion
of space - is thereby refuted. He puts a further nail in the coffin
by citing Goldhaber's study of SNe light curves, which did not reveal
the second predicted light-broadening effect due to time dilation.
Says Andrews: "The Hubble redshift of Fourier harmonic frequencies
[for SNe] is shown to broaden the light curve at the observer by
(1 + z). Since this broadening spreads the total luminosity over
a longer time period, the apparent luminosity at the observer is
decreased by the same factor. This accounts quantitatively for the
dimming of SNe. On the other hand, no anomalous dimming occurs for
galaxies since the luminosity remains constant over time periods much
longer than the light travel time to the observer. This effect is
consistent with the non-expanding Universe model. The expanding model
is logically falsified."

Professor Mike Disney of the School of Physics and Astronomy at
Cardiff University calls a spade a spade. He has created an interesting
benchmark for the evaluation of scientific models - he compares the
number of free parameters in a theory with the number of independent
measurements, and sets an arbitrary minimum of +3 for the excess of
measurements over free parameters to indicate that the theory is
empirically viable. He ran through the exercise for the Big Bang
model, and arrived at a figure of -3 (17 free parameters against
14 measured). He therefore argued that the there is little statistical
significance in the good fits claimed by Big Bang cosmologists since
the surfeit of free parameters can easily mould new data to fit
a desired conclusion. Quote: "The study of some 60 cultures, going
back 12,000 years, shows that, like it or not, we will always have
a cosmology, and there have always been more free parameters than
independent measurements. The best model is a compromise between
parsimony (Occam's razor) and goodness-of-fit."

Disney has a case there, and it is amply illustrated when it comes
to Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN) - which depends initially on an
arbitrarily set baryon/photon ratio - and the abundances of chemical
elements. Dr Tom van Flandern is another straight talking, no frills
man of science. He opened his abstract with the words "The Big Bang
has never achieved a true prediction success where the theory was
placed at risk of falsification before the results were known."
Ten years ago, Tom's web site listed the "Top Ten Problems with the
Big Bang", and today he has limited it to the Top Fifty. He pointed
out the following contradictions in predicted light element abundances:
observed deuterium abundances don't tie up with observed abundances
of 4He and 7Li, and attempts to explain this inconsistency have failed.
The ratio of deuterium to hydrogen near the centre of the Milky Way
is five orders of magnitude higher than the Standard Model predicts,
and measuring either for quasars produces deviation from predictions.
Also problematic for BBN are barium and beryllium, produced assumedly
as secondary products of supernovae by the process of spallation.
However, observations of metal-poor stars show greater abundance of
Be than possible by spallation. Van Flandern: "It should be evident
to objective minds that nothing about the Universe interpreted with
the Big Bang theory is necessarily right, not even the most basic
idea in it that the Universe is expanding."

Problems in describing the geometry of the Universe were dealt with
by several speakers, and we must here of course drill down a bit to
where the notion came from (in the context of Big Bang theory). The
theory originated in Father Georges Lemâitre's extensions to
Friedmann's solution of the Einstein General Relativity (GR) field
equations, which showed that the Universe described in GR could not
be static as Einstein believed. From this starting point emerged some
irksome dilemmas regarding the fundamental nature of space and the
distribution of matter within it. It was here more than anywhere that
the rich diversity of opinion and approach within the Alternative
Cosmology Group was demonstrated. Professor Yurij Baryshev of the
Institute of Astronomy at St Petersburg State University quietly
presented his argument against the Cosmological Principle: large-scale
structure is not possible in the Friedmann model, yet observation
shows it for as far as we can see. I had recently read Yurij's book
The Discovery of Cosmic Fractals, and knew that he had studied the
geometric fractals of Yale's famous professor Benoit Mandelbrot,
which in turn led to his extrapolation of a fractal (inhomogeneous,
anisotropic) non-expanding large-scale universe. Conference
co-ordinator professor Jose Almeida presented a well-argued case
for an interesting and unusual worldview: a hyperspherical Universe
of 4-D Euclidean space (called 4-Dimensional Optics or 4DO) rather
than the standard non-Euclidean Minkowski space. Dr Franco Selleri
of the Università di Bari (Italy) provided an equally interesting
alternative - the certainty that the Universe in which we live and
breathe is a construction in simple 3-D Euclidean space precludes
the possibility of the Big Bang model. He says: "No structure in
three dimensional space, born from an explosion that occurred
10 to 20 billion years ago, could resemble the Universe we observe."
The key to Selleri's theory is absolute simultaneity, obtained by
using a term e1 (the coefficient of x in the transformation of time)
in the Lorentz transformations, so that e1 = 0. Setting e1 = 0
separates time and space, and a conception of reality is introduced
in which no room is left for a fourth dimension. Both Big Bang and
its progenitor General Relativity depend critically on 4-D Minkowski
space, so the argument regressed even further to the viability of
Relativity itself. And here is where the big guns come in!

World-renowned mathematical physicist professor Huseyin Yilmaz,
formerly of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton University,
and his hands-on experimentalist colleague professor Carrol Alley of
the University of Maryland, introduced us to the Yilmaz cosmology.
Altogether four papers were presented at CCC-1 on various aspects
of Yilmaz theory, and a fifth, by Dr Hal Puthoff of the Institute
for Advanced Studies, was brought to the conference but not presented.
It is no longer controversial to suggest that GR has flaws, although
I still feel awkward saying it out loud! Professor Yilmaz focussed
on the fact that GR excludes gravitational stress-energy as a source
of curvature. Consequently, stress-energy is merely a coordinate
artefact in GR, whereas in the Yilmaz modification it is a true
tensor. Hal Puthoff described the GR term to me as a "pseudo-tensor,
which can appear or disappear depending on how you treat mass."
The crucial implication of this, in the words of professor Alley,
is that since "interactions are carried by the field stress energy,
there are no interactive n-body solutions to the field equations of
General Relativity." In plain language, GR is a single-body description
of gravity! The Yilmaz equations contain the correct terms, and they
have been applied with success to various vexing problems, for example
the precession of Mercury's perihelion, lunar laser ranging
measurements, the flying of atomic clocks in aircraft, the relativistic
behaviour of clocks in the GPS, and the predicted Sagnac effect in
the one-way speed of light on a rotating table. Anecdote from professor
Alley: at a lecture by Einstein in the 1920's, professor Sagnac was
in the audience. He questioned Einstein on the gedanken experiment
regarding contra-radiating light on a rotating plate. Einstein thought
for a while and said, "That has got nothing to do with relativity".
Sagnac loudly replied, "In that case, Dr Einstein, relativity has got
nothing to do with reality!"

The great observational "proof" of Big Bang theory is undoubtedly
the grandly titled Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, stumbled
upon by radio engineers Penzias and Wilson in 1965, hijacked by
Princeton cosmologist Jim Peebles, and demurely described by UC's
COBE data analyser Dr George Smoot as "like looking at the fingerprint
of God." Well, it's come back to haunt them! I was delighted that
despite some difficulties Glenn Starkman of Case Western Reserve
University was able to get his paper presented at the conference
as I had been keenly following his work on the Wilkinson Microwave
Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) data. Dr Starkman has discovered some
unexpected (for Big Bangers) characteristics (he describes them
as "bizarre") in the data that have serious consequences for the
Standard Model. Far from having the smooth, Gaussian distribution
predicted by Big Bang, the microwave picture has distinct anisotropies,
and what's more says Starkman, they are clearly aligned with local
astrophysical structures, particularly the ecliptic of the solar
system. Once the dipole harmonic is stripped to remove the effect
of the motion of the solar system, the other harmonics, quadrupole,
octopole, and so on reveal a distinct alignment with local objects,
and show also a preferred direction towards the Virgo supercluster.
Conference chair, plasma physicist Eric Lerner concurred in his paper.
He suggested that the microwave background is nothing more than
a radio fog produced by plasma filaments, which has reached a natural
isotropic thermal equilibrium of just under 3K. The radiation is
simply starlight that has been absorbed and re-radiated, and echoes
the anisotropies of the world around us. These findings correlate
with the results of a number of other independent studies, including
that of Larson and Wandelt at the University of Illinois, and also
of former Cambridge enfant terrible and current Imperial College
theoretical physics prodigy, professor Joao Magueijo. Quote from
Starkman: "This suggests that the reported microwave background
fluctuations on large angular scales are not in fact cosmic, with
important consequences." Phew!

The final day saw us discussing viable alternative cosmologies,
and here one inevitably leans towards personal preferences. My own
bias is unashamedly towards scientists who adopt the classical
empirical method, and there is no better example of this than Swedish
plasma physics pioneer and Nobel laureate Hannes Alfven. Consequently,
I favoured the paper on plasma cosmology presented by Eric Lerner,
and as a direct result of that inclination find it very difficult
here to be brief! Lerner summarised the basic premises: most of the
Universe is plasma, so the effect of electromagnetic force on a
cosmic scale is at least comparable to gravitation. Plasma cosmology
assumes no origin in time for the Universe, and can therefore
accommodate the conservation of energy/matter. Since we see evidence
of evolution all around us, we can assume evolution in the Universe,
though not at the pace or on the scale of the Big Bang. Lastly, plasma
cosmology tries to explain as much of the Universe as possible using
known physics, and does not invoke assistance from supernatural
elements. Plasmas are scale invariant, so we can safely infer
large-scale plasma activity from what we see terrestrially. Gravity
acts on filaments, which condense into "blobs" and disks form.
As the body contracts, it gets rid of angular momentum which is
conducted away by plasma. Lerner's colleague Anthony Peratt of
Los Alamos Laboratory modelled plasma interaction and has arrived
at a compelling simulation of the morphogenesis of galaxies.
Since plasma cosmology has no time constraints, the development
of large-scale structures - so problematic for Big Bang - is
accommodated.
Lerner admits that there's still a lot of work to be done, but with
the prospect of more research funding coming our way, he foresees
the tidying up of the theory into a workable cosmological model.

No account of CCC-1 would be near complete without a summary of
a paper that caught all of us by complete surprise. Professor Oliver
Manuel is not an astronomer. Nor indeed is he a physicist. He is a
nuclear chemist, chairman of the Department of Chemistry at the
University of Missouri, and held in high enough esteem to be one
of a handful of scientists entrusted with the job of analysing
Moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions. His "telescope"
is a mass spectrometer, and he uses it to identify and track isotopes
in the terrestrial neighbourhood. His conclusions are astonishing,
yet I can find no fault with his arguments. The hard facts that
emerge from professor Manuel's study indicate that the chemical
composition of the Sun beneath the photosphere is predominantly
iron! Manuel's thesis has passed peer review in several mainstream
journals, including Nature, Science, and the Journal of Nuclear Fusion.
He derives a completely revolutionary Solar Model, one which spells
big trouble for BBN. The latest published data from the SOHO and
TRACE satellites unambiguously support Manuel's hypothesis, and
that's about as much as I can say here. Watch this space!

The conference concluded with a stirring concert by a three-piece
baroque chamber music ensemble, and it gave me cause to reflect
that it appeared that only in our appreciation of music did we find
undiluted harmony. That the Big Bang theory will pass into history
as an artefact of man's obsession with dogma is a certainty; it will
do so on its own merits, however, because it stands on feet of clay.
For a viable replacement theory to emerge solely from the efforts of
the Alternative Cosmology Group is unlikely unless the group can soon
find cohesive direction, and put into practice the undertaking
that we become completely interdisciplinary in our approach.
Nonetheless, that there is a crisis in the world of science is
now confirmed. Papers presented at the conference by some of the
world's leading scientists showed beyond doubt that the weight
of scientific evidence clearly indicates that the dominant theory
on the origin and destiny of the Universe is deeply flawed. The
implications of this damning consensus are serious indeed, and
will in time fundamentally affect not only the direction of many
scientific disciplines, but also threaten to change the very way
that we do science.
--
About the author: Kwa Zulu Natal-born Hilton Ratcliffe is an
astrophysics graduate currently researching transient galaxy dynamics.
He is a member of ASSA, the Durban Centre of ASSA, and the Astronomical
Society of the Pacific, and is an Associate of the (British) Institute
of Physics. He describes his recreational interests as astronomy
(naturally!), wildlife, linear algebra, and entertaining charges of
heresy and sedition.

Cf. October, 2005 PROGRESS IN PHYSICS Volume 3

The First Crisis in Cosmology Conference
Monçao,Portugal,June 23-25 2005

Hilton Ratcliffe
Astronomical Society of Southern Africa
E-mail:ratcliff@iafrica.com
The author attended the first Crisis in Cosmology Conference
of the recently associated Alternative Cosmology Group,and makes
an informal report on the proceedings with some detail on selected
presentations.

***

http://www.cosmology.info/

About the Alternative Cosmology Group

The Alternative Cosmology Group (ACG) was initiated with the Open
Letter on Cosmology written to the scientific community and published
in New Scientist, May 22, 2004. The letter points to the fundamental
problems of the Big Bang theory, and to the unjustified limiting of
cosmological funding to work within the Big Bang framework. The
epicyclic character of the theory, piling ad-hoc hypothesis upon
hypothesis, its incompleteness and the appearance of a singularity
in the big bang universe beginning require consideration of
alternatives. This has become particularly necessary with the
increasing number of observations that contradict the theory's
predictions. Big Bang cosmology has been in a crisis since the
early 90's when the Cold Dark Matter model began to fail. Fifteen
years later, this crisis has worsened, despite the addition of dark
energy. Observations fail to show the dramatic differences between
the high-redshift and local universe required by the Big Bang theory.
We still find normal galaxies, heavy elements, strings and clusters
of galaxies at the further and further shifting outskirts of the
observable universe. The anisotropy of the cosmic background radiation,
the existence of very large-scale structures, the cosmic anisotropy
to electromagnetic wave propagation are among many observations
that contradict Big Bang expectations. At the same time, non-Big Bang
alternatives have increasingly shown promise to coherently explain
the observations and to predict new phenomena. We believe, therefore,
that a shift in effort in cosmology to these alternatives is essential
if the field is to advance.

****

See also:

Evidence for a Non-Expanding Universe:
Surface Brightness Data From HUDF
Eric J. Lerner
Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc. Email: elerner@igc.org

Abstract.

Surface brightness data can distinguish between a
Friedman-Robertson-Walker
expanding universe and a non-expanding universe. For surface brightness

measured in AB magnitudes per angular area, all FRW models, regardless
of cosmological parameters, predict that surface brightness declines
with redshift as (z+1)^-3, while any non-expanding model predicts
that surface brightness is constant with distance and thus with z.
High-z UV surface brightness data for galaxies from the Hubble Ultra
Deep Field and low-z data from GALEX are used to test the predictions
of these two models up to z=6. A preliminary analysis presented here
of samples observed at the same at-galaxy wavelengths in the UV shows
that surface brightness is constant, mu =kz^0.026+-0.15 , consistent
with the non-expanding model. This relationship holds if distance is
linearly proportional to z at all redshifts, but seems insensitive
to the particular choice of d-z relationship.
Attempts to reconcile the data with FRW predictions by assuming that
high-z galaxies have intrinsically higher surface brightness than
low-z galaxies appear to face insurmountable problems. The intrinsic
FUV surface brightness required by the FRW models for high-z galaxies
exceeds the maximum FUV surface brightness of any low-z galaxy by
as much as a factor of 40. Dust absorption appears to make such
extremely high intrinsic FUV surface brightness physically
impossible. If confirmed by further analysis, the impossibility of
such high-m galaxies would rule out all FRW expanding universe
(big bang) models.
Themistocles - 15 Nov 2005 16:00 GMT
you are wrong, becus if the universe would contract and
not expand then wen you go outside you see the stars
comming against you at high speed and everybody becomes
scarry
Daniel Weston - 15 Nov 2005 21:05 GMT
Marcel:  Thanks for your post above.  I especially noted that the
meeting in Monaco was international in scope, and attended by dissidents
that were well credentialed.  This will give more editors the courage
and incentive to post articles that question the paradigm.

The observations, that about the theoretical time of BB, we already had
old galaxies and galaxy groups, makes the BB theory one tough cookie to
swallow.  I hope that posters to this NG such as John Anderson and
Bilge, will become a little less reluctant to insult people that express
dissatisfaction with the BBT.  I note with considerable satisfaction
that the BBT is collecting an impressive number of epicycles.

 

                             
                               

                                                                                                 

                                                         
                                                 
                       

                               

   
                                                                     

             
kenseto - 16 Nov 2005 13:42 GMT
> Marcel:  Thanks for your post above.  I especially noted that the
> meeting in Monaco was international in scope, and attended by dissidents
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> dissatisfaction with the BBT.  I note with considerable satisfaction
> that the BBT is collecting an impressive number of epicycles.

The BB model can be modified to be epicycle free. The following link
describes such a modified model.
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2005Cosmology.pdf

Ken Seto
dwhig265@aol.com - 15 Nov 2005 21:38 GMT
Dear Marcel,
  I think you people are on the right track. I am an amateur
cosmologist and have offered up to $25,000 to the first person to
disprove my idea that the Milky Way galaxy and local group, orbits the
center of the universe. I would welcome a conversation with mainstream
scientists, but I have never met anyone that has shown the slightest
interest. Your article gives me great solace that you main streamers
may be finally coming to your senses, and are beginning to doubt the
conspiratorial shenanigans of 100 years ago that COULD NOT POSSIBLY be
correct in light of todays technology.
  I don't really expect to hear from you but I thank you for the
article which I am going to save, to show I had copyrighted solutions
to all the questions you raise in said article, as far back as 1990.
Respectfully, your article inspires me to offer $100,000 to you, or the
first person to disprove my aforementioned idea about the M/W orbit,
for 30 days from todays date.  Sincerely, Dwain W. Higginbotham
Dr Nanduri - 17 Nov 2005 12:53 GMT
THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE.
I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE
and Universe as part of the COSMOS.The origins lie through Vedas.
My books have projections and I welcome interaction. Milky Way holds
the key at the bottom end one needs to integrate: SRISTI STITHI LAYA -
CREATION, STABILTY and Dissolution:  This helps Science to advance.
COSMOLOGY -Vedas  see: Google search
You are welcome to contact me any time if you are serious.
Vidyardhi Nanduri

> Dear Marcel,
>    I think you people are on the right track. I am an amateur
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> first person to disprove my aforementioned idea about the M/W orbit,
> for 30 days from todays date.  Sincerely, Dwain W. Higginbotham
Black Knight - 17 Nov 2005 14:57 GMT
> THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE.
> I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> first person to disprove my aforementioned idea about the M/W orbit,
>> for 30 days from todays date.  Sincerely, Dwain W. Higginbotham

I am an amateur phuckwit for the day and offer up to $25,000 to the first
person to
disprove my idea that bright green flying elephants lay eggs in black holes.
I am not an amateur logician.
Androcles
jem - 18 Nov 2005 13:16 GMT
>>THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE.
>>I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> I am not an amateur logician.
> Androcles

A hole is an absence of matter, eggs are matter, ergo a hole can't
contain eggs.  QED

ps. I'm sending Guido to pick up the 25 G's.
Black Knight - 18 Nov 2005 16:09 GMT
>>>THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE.
>>>I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> ps. I'm sending Guido to pick up the 25 G's.

You are just being logical. I'm being an amateur phuckfit.
According to the theory of relativity, a money and it's fool are soon
parted.
Androcles
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT
> Non-expanding universe
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ----

Snip

> Big Bang theory depends critically on three first principles: that the
> Universe is holistically and systematically expanding as per the
> Friedmann model;

This part has left me mystified.  Why is there no model of the Big Bang
in Euclidian space?  Most of the little bangs that I've seen have
occurred in apparently Euclidian space.  Why must the universe be
non-Euclidian for there to have been a big bang?

> that General Relativity correctly describes
> gravitation; and that Milne's Cosmological Principle, which declares
> that the Universe at some arbitrary "large scale" is isotropic and
> homogeneous, is true.

This third point is also obnoxious.  None of the little bangs I have
ever seen have been isotropic and homogeneous at an arbitrarily large
scale. Little bangs have a round expanding shape!  Why should the big
bang be isotropic and homogeneous?

> The falsification of any one of these principles
> would lead to the catastrophic failure of the theory.

Anyway, I believe we can falsify points 1 and 3 and still have a big
bang.

Even if (a) the universe is not homogeneous on an arbitrarily large
scale or (b)  the universe occupies a Euclidian metric instead of a
Friedmann metric, I would still call an explosion containing all the
matter in the visible universe (and then some) a "Big Bang."
To say otherwise, you would probably be in disagreement with most
humans who would probably classify themselves as "medium", and to whom
the visible universe would, hence, be "big.")

This argument that there was no big bang seems to be missing the entire
point.  The galaxies are moving away from us, and the farther they are
away, the faster they are moving.  And the equation to predict how far
away they are, (no surprise here) is distance=rate * time, which is
high-school algebra stuff.  Unless you have another explanation for
this, or if you find that distance is, in some cases, NOT equal to rate
* time, which could only be explained by a different starting position,
then we have no other viable explanation except for a single point of
origin, or at least a small region of origin.

If you want to launch into a "no big bang" argument, attack the basics,
not the hocus pocus about expanding space and homogeneity at an
arbitrarily large scale.
Daniel Weston - 16 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT
I have seen a lot of small bangs.  (SB)
None start with anything approaching a singularity.  There are ~100b
galaxies with each containing ~100b suns.  And we are told that modern
science says that all that matter and energy came from something
infinitely smaller than a pin head.  That doesn't set well with me at
all. I have taken the BBT and just put it on the shelf.  I am suspending
final judgement until we have more knowledge as to what is happening and
what are the causalities.
A lot of professional scientists have noted that the BBT is requiring an
increasing number of epicycles.  I have well braced myself for any
ensuing scorn and ridicule from the defenders of the faith.

 

                             
                               

                                                                                                 

                                                         
                                                 
                       

                               

   
                                                                     

             
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 03:38 GMT
> I have seen a lot of small bangs.  (SB)
> None start with anything approaching a singularity.  There are ~100b
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> increasing number of epicycles.  I have well braced myself for any
> ensuing scorn and ridicule from the defenders of the faith.

That, I could live with.  To me, an original finite volume for where
the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations.
There is a significant detail that should be noted here, though.  Say
you've started with all the matter compressed, not to a point, but to
an sphere 1 meter across.  It's very hot, and in the center portion,
the matter is all moving in arbitrary directions, colliding
willy-nilly.

Now, make an analysis of the situation from the perspective of any
particle inside, after performing a Lorentz transformation into its
reference frame.

The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles
within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding,
at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the
SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe.

If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.

I kind of like the singularity idea. (starting out at a point IN space,
though, rather than the more common view of the Friedmann followers
where space actually BECOMES a point along with the matter.)  I also
like the idea that somehow every single available quantum energy state
is filled within that physical point in space.  You may not like that
idea.

Anyway, I'm not at all sure what an epicycle is, but I can tell you my
opinion that this business of finding all the spherical harmonics of
the Cosmic Background is a bunch of numerological hogwash.  You know
why?  Because it isn't sound, and the universe isn't a big round drum!
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 05:14 GMT
>> I have seen a lot of small bangs.  (SB)
>> None start with anything approaching a singularity.  There are ~100b
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> That, I could live with.  To me, an original finite volume for where
> the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations.

The Ptolemaic system was not inconsistent with observation. It still isn't.

http://alpha.lasalle.edu/~smithsc/Astronomy/retrograd.html

What was your point?

> There is a significant detail that should be noted here, though.  Say
> you've started with all the matter compressed, not to a point, but to
> an sphere 1 meter across.  It's very hot, and in the center portion,
> the matter is all moving in arbitrary directions, colliding
> willy-nilly.

Say you started with an infinite universe just as it is now,
what evidence do you have for this supposed BB?
Red shift?
That doesn't work, E = h\nu for a photon, the surface area of
a sphere has to contain all the energy at ANY radius.

> Now, make an analysis of the situation from the perspective of any
> particle inside, after performing a Lorentz transformation into its
> reference frame.

Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot
derive?

> The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles
> within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding,
> at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the
> SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe.

Give me the right ascension and declination to the centre, please.

> If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
> wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
>
> I kind of like the singularity idea.

Ah.... you LIKE it. That means it must be so.

No arguing with faith...

Androcles.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 14:36 GMT
> Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot
> derive?

I do know how to derive the Lorentz Transformation.  The last ten or
fifteen seconds of this animation show the derivation fairly quickly.

http://www.spoonfedrelativity.com/movies/summary.htm
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 21:01 GMT
>> Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot
>> derive?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.spoonfedrelativity.com/movies/summary.htm

That's not how Einstein derived the cuckoo transformations.
The problem you have I pointed out years ago, from Martin Gardner's
explanation.
Gardner's Paradox

By Androcles

In his booklet, "The Relativity Explosion", Martin Gardner writes
(concerning two spacecraft passing each other).

How is it possible, you ask, for each ship to be shorter than the other? You
ask an improper question. The theory does not say that each ship is shorter
than the other; it says that astronauts on each ship measure the other ship
as shorter. This is quite a different matter. If two people stand on
opposite sides of a huge concave lens, each sees the other as smaller, but
that is not the same as saying that each is smaller.

In addition to apparent changes in length, there are also apparent changes
in time. Astronauts on each ship will find that clocks on the other ship are
running slower. A simple thought experiment shows this must indeed be the
case. Imagine you are looking out the porthole of one spaceship into the
porthole of another ship. The two ships are passing each other with uniform
speed close to that of light. As they pass, a beam of light on the other
ship is sent from its ceiling to its floor. There it strikes a mirror and is
reflected back to the ceiling again. You will see this as a V. If you had
sufficiently accurate instruments (of course no such instruments exist), you
could clock the time it takes this light beam to traverse the V-shaped path.
By dividing the length of the path by the time, you obtain the speed of
light.

Now suppose that while you clock the light beam on its V-shaped path, an
astronaut is doing the same thing. From his point of view, assuming his ship
to be the fixed frame of reference, the light beam simply goes up and down
along the same line, obviously a shorter distance than along the V that you
measured. When he divides this distance by the time it took the beam to go
down and up, he also obtains the speed of light. Because the speed of light
is constant for all observers, he must get exactly the same final result
that you did: 299,800 kilometers per second. But his light path is shorter.
How can his result be the same? There is only one [sic] possible
explanation: his clock is slower. Of course, the situation is perfectly
symmetrical. If you send a beam up and down inside your ship, he will see
its path as a V-shape. He will deduce that your clock is slower.

Martin Gardner - The Relativity Explosion, ISBN 0-394-72104-7

I wonder if he means this only possible answer?

<GIF DELETED FOR NEWSGROUP>

(This is an animated GIF similar to your own description. I can email it if
you wish)

The problem with the explanation.

Let us ask an improper question, and do so by paraphrasing Gardner.

The theory does not say that each ship is shorter than the other; it says
that astronauts on each ship measure the other ship as shorter. (How can
they, we have to ask? Since Gardner has already said no such instruments
exist...such is the illogical thinking of the relativist.) This is quite a
different matter. If two people stand on opposite sides of a huge convex
lens, each sees the other as larger, but that is not the same as saying that
each is larger.

In addition to apparent changes in length, there are also apparent changes
in time. Astronauts on each ship will find that clocks on the other ship are
running faster. A simple thought experiment shows this must indeed be the
case. Imagine you are looking out the porthole of one spaceship into the
porthole of another ship. The two ships are passing each other with uniform
speed close to that of light. As they pass, a beam of light on the other
ship is sent from its ceiling at the bow to its floor at midships. That is
as the nose of the ship is passing your porthole, the light begins at the
ceiling, and arrives at the floor as the middle of the ship, which has now
moved directly opposite your porthole. There it strikes a mirror and is
reflected back to the ceiling again, now at the tail. You will see this as a
vertical line. If you had sufficiently accurate instruments (of course no
such instruments exist), you could clock the time it takes this light beam
to traverse the vertical path. By dividing the length of the path by the
time, you obtain the speed of light.

Now suppose that while you clock the light beam on its vertical path, an
astronaut is doing the same thing. From his point of view, assuming his ship
to be the fixed frame of reference, the light beam simply goes along a
V-shaped path, obviously a greater distance than along the vertical path
that you measured. When he divides this distance by the time it took the
beam to go down and up, he also obtains the speed of light. Because the
speed of light is constant for all observers, he must get exactly the same
final result that you did: 299,800 kilometers per second. But his light path
is longer. How can his result be the same? There is only one possible
explanation: his clock is faster. Of course, the situation is perfectly
symmetrical. If you send a beam on a V-shaped path inside your ship, he will
see its path as a vertical line. He will deduce that your clock is faster.

Having deduced through simple logic that something is wrong, we have two
contradictory results from a single supposition, i.e. the velocity of light
is constant is all frames of reference, then it follows that Einstein's
second postulate, "light is always propagated in empty space with a definite
velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body"
has been shown to be invalid.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is how Einstein derived the cuckoo transformations.
You are a smart guy, you can read.
Create Bambi II from this:

The light leaves the caboose and arrives at the engine, then reflects
back to the caboose.
Let the light leave the engine, reflect at the caboose and return to the
engine.

The diagram is like this (fixed font needed).

|                                C'
|                               /
|                  B           /
|            ____________Mirror
|                  /\        /
|                 /  \      /
C                /    \    /
|\              /      \  /
| \            /        \A'
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
| /           D    |
|/
/ ____________|____|________________
A             D    B    A'        C'

[quote]
we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel
from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to [A'].
[end quote]
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

We establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel
from C to D equals the "time" it requires to travel from D to C'.

Distance between mirrors is x'

Einstein's equation:

½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v))

What it means in the diagram:

½[tau(A,t)+tau(A',t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(B,t+x'/(c-v))
½[tau(C,t)+tau(C',t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(D,t+x'/(c PLUS v))

So the time at B, the engine, equals the time at D, the caboose,
but it doesn't.

For the full text, you can check it out:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

Incidentally, if you wrap that diagram into a circle, connecting
engine to caboose, you have Sagnac.
Einstein was aware of Sagnac in 1913.

This is what Newton would say if he were alive today:
The most recent accusations of forgery made against Ptolemy came from Newton
in [12]. He begins this book by stating clearly his views:-

This is the story of a scientific crime. ... I mean a crime committed by a
scientist against fellow scientists and scholars, a betrayal of the ethics
and integrity of his profession that has forever deprived mankind of
fundamental information about an important area of astronomy and history.

Towards the end Newton, having claimed to prove every observation claimed by
Ptolemy in the Almagest was fabricated, writes [12]:-

[Ptolemy] developed certain astronomical theories and discovered that they
were not consistent with observation. Instead of abandoning the theories, he
deliberately fabricated observations from the theories so that he could
claim that the observations prove the validity of his theories. In every
scientific or scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it
is a crime against science and scholarship.
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Ptolemy.html

The most recent accusations of forgery made against Einstein came from
Androcles right now. He begins this accusation by stating clearly his
views:-

This is the story of a scientific crime. ... I mean a crime committed by a
scientist against fellow scientists and scholars, a betrayal of the ethics
and integrity of his profession that has forever deprived mankind of
fundamental information about an important area of astronomy and history.

Towards the end Androcles, having claimed to prove every observation claimed
by Einstein in the theory of relativity was fabricated, writes:-

Einstein developed certain astronomical theories and discovered that they
were not consistent with observation. Instead of abandoning the theories, he
deliberately fabricated observations from the theories so that he could
claim that the observations prove the validity of his theories. In every
scientific or scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it
is a crime against science and scholarship.

I say the same of Tom Roberts.

"Yes, tests of strong fields are few and far between, but there are
some:
the binary pulsars, and observations of accretion disks near black
holes -- Hallucinatory Roberts, fabricator of observation.

Androcles, friend of the lion, Newton
Dirk Van de moortel - 16 Nov 2005 21:15 GMT
> >> Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot
> >> derive?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> In his booklet, "The Relativity Explosion", Martin Gardner writes
> (concerning two spacecraft passing each other).

First occurence in July 2001
 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author%3Aandrocles%20booklet%20martin%20gardner

Dirk Vdm
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 14:52 GMT
> > That, I could live with.  To me, an original finite volume for where
> > the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> What was your point?

Basically what you just said.  The ptolemaic system, if I understand,
treats the earth as a stationary reference frame and predicts the
positions of stars and planets in the sky from that reference frame.
As such, it has strange phenomena such as retrograde orbit and a sun
and terra-firma that rotate and orbit around the earth.  It's all
consistent with observation to a point...  If you tried to imagine
things from the perspective of a moon of Jupiter, you wouldn't be able
to do it easily, with this system.  The ptolemaic system was eventually
given up after someone (I believe Galileo (?)) found a simpler model
which was consistent with observations.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 21:33 GMT
>> > That, I could live with.  To me, an original finite volume for where
>> > the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> given up after someone (I believe Galileo (?)) found a simpler model
> which was consistent with observations.

Copernicus. Galileo confirmed it. Kepler measured it, discovered
Copernicus was off, the orbits were elliptical, not circles,
Newton confirmed Kepler, science was under weigh. Newton
fell back on William of Ockham.
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
or
Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler.
Newton said:
RULES OF REASONING IN PHILOSOPHY.
RULE I.
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true
and sufficient to explain their appearances.

To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain, and
more is in vain when less will serve; for Nature is pleased with simplicity,
and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes.

Einstein overstepped Ockham.
"Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler"

When asked if New York stops at this train, Galileo said "Yes".
Einstein said "As has already been shown to the first order of small
quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for
all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good. We
will raise this conjecture (the purport of which will hereafter be called
the ``Principle of Relativity'') to the status of a postulate ".
I want to say "Does New York stop at this friggin' train or not, idiot?"
Damn pompous twit, claiming responsibility for Galileo's postulate and
saying it isn't quite right.

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." --Albert
Einstein

The secret to arrogance is never quoting anyone else. Creativity my arse.
He got his ideas about time from reading H.G. Wells' "Time Machine", a best
seller when he was a teenager, and from Swiss cuckoo clocks as a patent
office clerk.

Who gave him permission to define time anyway?

HUCKSTER! Criminal! Should have been hung, drawn and quartered.
Androcles.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:00 GMT
> > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
> > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
> >
> > I kind of like the singularity idea.
>
> Ah.... you LIKE it. That means it must be so.

No, really it doesn't

> No arguing with faith...
>
> Androcles.

Actually, there's plenty of arguing with faith.  That's what most
arguments are about!  In fact, that's the entire point of an argument.
One person believes one thing and another believes another.  But I know
you Androcles.  You are not one to stay in an argument with somebody
who believes what they are saying and can support it.  So you might as
well leave now if your not arguing.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:50 GMT
> > > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
> > > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> who believes what they are saying and can support it.  So you might as
> well leave now if your not arguing.

I take that back if I can.  Actually, I should recognize and appreciate
your input.  You are a regular here and keep the threads alive with
your alternating inconsistent arguments.  And if you hadn't responded,
I wouldn't have anybody to defend my ideas to.  Because of your faith,
I'll never be able to convince you of anything, but you still might
encourage me to come up with incontrovertible points which might
convince others who are not so invested in contrariness.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 22:17 GMT
>> > > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
>> > > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> encourage me to come up with incontrovertible points which might
> convince others who are not so invested in contrariness.

Sure... but you are wielding a two-edged sword. Be careful not to cut
yourself.
Above all, don't get overconfident the way Phuckwit Duck did.
I have a LOT of experience. Teach me something new.

>> Draper:
>> I have to admit that I am demoralized at the moment.
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>> Google remembers it very well.
>> Androcles.

I've since given Phuckwit Duck a hounding. I'm not done yet.
It's when I choose.

I know I'm crass, vitriolic, not well liked. Those things don't matter to
me. I am honest though. Only today I was caught out.
I said:
----------------------------------
>> Looks like your 4.125 isn't quite right. Maybe that's the problem.
>
> Nope you made an error.
Yep... My apologies. I realised it right after I posted, so I'll have
to eat it. I 'fess up, I made a boo-boo.My granddaughter called
as I was about to re-read what I'd written, so I posted in haste.

The equation is ..

> 6 * 10/(10+22) = 4.125

Of course. I didn't engage brain before opening my big mouth,
so call me an idiot (this time).  :-)
-------------------------------------

Do that and there is no reply the OP can make that can lead
to vitriol or bitterness. Stick to your guns when you know you are
right, admit to yourself you can be wrong. I won't lie to myself.
I can be wrong. The man who never made a mistake never
made anything.
A smart young fella like yourself can learn, and I'd be delighted
if you did. You obviously have some talent, you don't have
to rely on ego to get your message over. You are confident,
which is good, polite too, which is good, and you'll find I'm not
unkindly, even if terse. The rules of the game are evidence and
logic. I wish you every success!

With regards,
Androcles.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 21:38 GMT
>> > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
>> > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> who believes what they are saying and can support it.  So you might as
> well leave now if your not arguing.

You don't know me at all. I'll argue up until you fall back on assertion.
Isaac Asimov wrote in "Quasar, Quasar, Burning Bright" ,
ISBN 0-380-44610-3
(concerning life after death)
"If you want to argue the point, present the evidence.
I must warn you, though, that there are some arguments I will not accept.
I won't accept any argument from authority. ("The Bible says so")
I won't accept any argument from internal conviction ("I have faith it is
so")
I won't accept any argument from personal abuse ("What are you, an
atheist?")
I won't accept any argument from irrelevance ("Do you think you have been
put on this Earth just to exist for a moment of time?)
I won't accept any argument from anecdote ("My cousin has a friend who went
to a medium and talked to her dead husband")
And when all that, and other varieties of non-evidence are eliminated, there
turns out to be nothing."

Present the evidence.

Androcles.
Dirk Van de moortel - 16 Nov 2005 22:12 GMT
> >> > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you
> >> > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> And when all that, and other varieties of non-evidence are eliminated, there
> turns out to be nothing."

Androcles' arguments:
 http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndArg.html

Dirk Vdm
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:31 GMT
> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles
> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding,
> > at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the
> > SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe.
>
> Give me the right ascension and declination to the centre, please.

See above for my error.  There is no reference frame where this sphere
would be the smallest.

You can always find a reference frame where an expanding finite volume
in Euclidian space contracts to a a single event (a single point in
space-time).  I would be happy to help anybody that wants to do a
thesis on this to generate a proof.

But you are asking for where the center is, from our reference frame?
(Approximately) 11h09m Right Ascension, -7deg declination  This is not
the literal center of the universe, you understand, but the center of
the expanding sphere from this frame.  More information on where this
answer comes from can be found here:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/0f134b46
ee86d1c7/2074e776c19a7494#2074e776c19a7494


Thank you for asking!
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 23:05 GMT
>> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles
>> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> See above for my error.  There is no reference frame where this sphere
> would be the smallest.

Ok...

> You can always find a reference frame where an expanding finite volume
> in Euclidian space contracts to a a single event (a single point in
> space-time).  I would be happy to help anybody that wants to do a
> thesis on this to generate a proof.

I'm way past writing theses. These days I let younger people make
either a name for or a fool of themselves.

> But you are asking for where the center is, from our reference frame?
> (Approximately) 11h09m Right Ascension, -7deg declination  This is not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thank you for asking!

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050508.html
The map indicates that the Local Group moves at about 600 kilometers per
second relative to this primordial radiation. This high speed was initially
unexpected and its
magnitude is still unexplained.
http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~mab/education/astro103/lectures/l24/ap030212.html
Credit: WMAP Science Team, NASA. Explanation: Analyses of a new
high-resolution
map of microwave light emitted only 380000 years after the Big Bang

http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/hubble.html
Trained initially as a lawyer, Edwin Hubble moved to astronomy in 1914,
working at the famous Yerkes Observatory near Chicago.

I'm glad you are doing better than NASA or a trained lawyer.

Androcles.
Spoonfed - 18 Nov 2005 05:12 GMT
> >> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles
> >> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding,
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> high-resolution
> map of microwave light emitted only 380000 years after the Big Bang

The 600 km/second figure comes from a low velocity approximation, and
makes the assumption that the light comes from the local vacuum of
space.  Whoever first did the calculation was wrong, and it is
unfortunate that it keeps getting propogated.  In the same articles,
you will often find, in the same articles or presentations as this
unchecked 600 km/sec figure arguments that the redshift of the outer
edge of the visible universe is around 1000.  This figure is accurate,
and it should be used to calculate the approximate velocity of the
source of the primordial radiation we are currently seeing.

Unfortunately, we don't currently have the experimental apparatus to
get a camera that can detect 2.7 K light up to 600 km/second so we
could check that indeed, the dipole does not disappear.

> http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/hubble.html
> Trained initially as a lawyer, Edwin Hubble moved to astronomy in 1914,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Androcles.
Black Knight - 18 Nov 2005 09:49 GMT
>> >> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles
>> >> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> get a camera that can detect 2.7 K light up to 600 km/second so we
> could check that indeed, the dipole does not disappear.

YAWNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnn..................

Androc........zzzzzzzzzzzzz

>> http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/hubble.html
>> Trained initially as a lawyer, Edwin Hubble moved to astronomy in 1914,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> Androcles.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:18 GMT
> > I have seen a lot of small bangs.  (SB)
> > None start with anything approaching a singularity.  There are ~100b
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the
> SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe.

I erred here.  If you choose a particle which is moving toward the
center and switch to its reference frame, the sphere would appear
larger at that moment in that particle's frame.  If you choose a
particle which is moving away from the center and switch to its
reference frame, the universe would be smaller.

Since presumably, out at the very edge of the universe, there would be
particles traveling outward at velocities arbitrarily close to the
speed of light, there would be particles from whose reference frame,
the universe would appear to be arbitrarily small.

Now if the universe can appear arbitrarily small from the perspective
of one particle, then it should also appear arbitrarily small to every
other particle.  So, not only do I LIKE the idea of the universe
starting out at a single point, it is the ONLY possibility if the
universe started out with a finite spherical volume.

On the other hand, if the universe started out with an infinite
Euclidian volume, with homogeneously distributed matter, we should be
continually smacked with matter from nether regions of the universe.

-OR- there would be galaxies hanging stationary in the sky.  If this
were the case, I wouldn't think they should be redshifted to varying
degrees depending on their distance.  Either way an infinite
homogeneous universe (in Euclidian space) is inconsistent with our
observations.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 22:52 GMT
>> > I have seen a lot of small bangs.  (SB)
>> > None start with anything approaching a singularity.  There are ~100b
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> Euclidian volume, with homogeneously distributed matter, we should be
> continually smacked with matter from nether regions of the universe.

I don't follow that. Why would we be continually smacking the nether
regions with our matter? And if we don't, why should the nether regions
do it to us?

> -OR- there would be galaxies hanging stationary in the sky.

Yeah... so?

> If this
> were the case, I wouldn't think they should be redshifted to varying
> degrees depending on their distance.

Oh, I do. That's consistent with a shell of finite energy spread over
an enormous sphere of which we are at the surface and
E = h.nu (Planck)

> Either way an infinite
> homogeneous universe (in Euclidian space) is inconsistent with our
> observations.
It is?
You should tell that to Max Planck. I don't suppose Erwin Hubble paid
him much attention... different fields of study, Astronomy and QM.

Androcles.
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 16 Nov 2005 03:56 GMT
Dear Daniel Weston:

>I have seen a lot of small bangs.  (SB)
> None start with anything approaching a singularity.  There
> are ~100b galaxies with each containing ~100b suns.  And
> we are told that modern science says that all that matter
> and energy came from something infinitely smaller than a
> pin head.

We are not told that.  Current theory hints at "the size of a
grapefruit".

> That doesn't set well with me at
> all.

Good, because it is not true.

> I have taken the BBT and just put it on the shelf.

... but will whine about it?  What kind of "on the shelf" is
that?  The one where the targets are stored?

> I am suspending
> final judgement until we have more knowledge as to
> what is happening and what are the causalities.

"Final judgement" implies we will have infinite knowledge.  This
is not likely in your lifetime.  If you don't like it, come up
with other option(s) that fit the facts.

> A lot of professional scientists have noted that the BBT is
> requiring an increasing number of epicycles.

Citations for "a lot"?  This is on the order of "several", so 5
or 6 should be sufficient...  I wonder how they end up with so
little iron in this Universe with an "increasing number of
epicycles".

> I have well braced myself for any
> ensuing scorn and ridicule from the defenders of the faith.

Too bad science isn't a religion.  But I don't expect you to
acknowledge the difference.  Since you have now announced that
you are going back to pre-Greek (?) cosmology...

Of course, you are only looking for a fight...

David A. Smith
Thomas Heger - 16 Nov 2005 10:01 GMT
I guess, the sigularity is void, since it takes energy to curve the space
and the energie in all matter in space is nessesary to fold the universe
back to the size of a pinhead
That it takes energie to curve space is easy to prove: just lift the monitor
that you are looking at

TH

> Good, because it is not true.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> David A. Smith
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 18 Nov 2005 20:15 GMT
Firstly thankyou for you interset in the conference and what it stood
for. I am the author of the report posted here. It seems that Spoonfed
is playing with the name "Big Bang" It is the name of a cosmological
theory devloped by Georges le Maitre and formalised by George Gamow and
his assistants. It is based upon the mathematics of General Relativity
as solved by Alexandre Friedmann. hence I write it with capital
letters. It does not refer to some or other large explosion; in the
sense that I have used it, it refers specifically to the theory
described above. Therefore, Big Bang theory
1 is constrained by 4-D Minkowski space
2 is based upon General Relativity
3 operates according to the Friedmann model
4 requires a systematically expanding universe
5 depends on the validity of the Cosmological Principle.

Now, to address your questions:
"Why is there no model of Big Bang in Euclidean space?" The authors of
the theory chose to base it on Minkowski space. Several attempts have
been made to accommodate it in Euclidean space (see Almeida) but none
has been successful as far as I know.
"Why should the big bang be isotropic and homogeneous?" Is the change
to lower case intentional? The Friedmann solutions are for an isotropic
and homogeneous universe. Professor Yurij Baryshev 9in my report) put
it most succinctly: The Friedmann model does not allow large-scale
structure, yet observation shows it for as far as we can see.
"The galaxies are moving away from us..." I don't agree. Hubble,
without much confidence, ascribed his percieved redshift to the Doppler
effect. We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van
Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point.
"If you want to launch into a 'no big bang' argument, attack the
basics, not the hocus pocus..." What on Earth are you on about?
Expanding space and the Cosmological Principle are the fundamental
tenets upon which the authors of Big Bang based their theory. Surely
you concede then that I am indeed attacking the basics?
Notwithstanding our differences of opinion, I do appreciate your
critical thinking.

With best regards, Hilton Ratcliffe

> > Non-expanding universe
> >
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> not the hocus pocus about expanding space and homogeneity at an
> arbitrarily large scale.
Joe Fischer - 18 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT
>Firstly thankyou for you interset in the conference and what it stood
>for. I am the author of the report posted here.

          And you think the sun is a sphere of iron with a 400 thousand mile
radius.       What is the average density and the mass of that?

Joe Fischer
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 19 Nov 2005 06:53 GMT
Dear Joe,
Thank you for your interst in the Iron Sun hypothesis. I'm intrigued by
how you could reach that conclusion based on what I had written in the
conference report, but nevertheless, you are right in assuming that I
now accept Professor Manuel's thesis on the iron Sun (despite the
initial incredulous response I displayed to his abstract!) In fact, he,
Michael Mozina, and I have now co-authored several related papers on
the subject (refer arXiv) and have submitted a joint contribution the
the "Hirschegg '06" workshop on nuclear astrophysics to be held in
Austria in January.
The extensive measurements of isotopes on the Earth, in meteorites, in
solar wind, and in Moon rock produce results that are quite clear - the
Solar System resulted from a local iron-rich SN about 5 Gy ago, and
sorted itself generally by mass with a heavy-element core (the Sun).
Refer to Michael Mozina's site (link on this page) and to Oliver
Manuel's web page (link from Mozina).
This model does not change the measurement of the Sun's mass - 10 to
power 33.3 g - so average density remains also the same. There is no
contradiction in this because of the complex variables affecting
stellar densities.
Regards, Hilton
Joe Fischer - 19 Nov 2005 19:28 GMT
>Dear Joe,
>Thank you for your interst in the Iron Sun hypothesis. I'm intrigued by
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the "Hirschegg '06" workshop on nuclear astrophysics to be held in
>Austria in January.

           Did somebody forget to take chemistry in high school?

           Wouldn't there be the same number of molecules/atoms
in the same volume, pressure and temperature, and doesn't iron
have a molecular weight many times that of hydrogen?

>The extensive measurements of isotopes on the Earth, in meteorites, in
>solar wind, and in Moon rock produce results that are quite clear - the
>Solar System resulted from a local iron-rich SN about 5 Gy ago, and
>sorted itself generally by mass with a heavy-element core (the Sun).
>Refer to Michael Mozina's site (link on this page) and to Oliver
>Manuel's web page (link from Mozina).

         What, asteroids are nickel-iron, so the sun must be also?

         And most of the fusion in the sun is very deep, with a
large iron core there may not be enough pressure higher up
to sustain fusion.

>This model does not change the measurement of the Sun's mass - 10 to
>power 33.3 g - so average density remains also the same. There is no
>contradiction in this because of the complex variables affecting
>stellar densities.
>Regards, Hilton

         I think it would substantially change the sun's mass, it's radius,
and it's energy output.

         I am sorry to say your idea is about as absurd as posted here,
only exceeded in absurdity by the Electrodynamic Divergence of
Matter model.

Joe Fischer
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 20 Nov 2005 05:46 GMT
Dear Joe,

Thanks for your comments.  Many think that the Sun's density means
that it must be hydrogen, but that isn't true. The average density is
just the total mass divided by the total volume. The Sun's mass was not
derived from density, temperature, and pressure measurements for its
perceived chemical composition; like all other bodies in our Solar
System, mass is determined using Kepler/Newton laws of motion.

To find chemical composition you must also know:
a.) the internal structure,
b.) the number of atoms, and/or
c.) the temperature profile
(Remember the Sun is huge; the structure and the temperature may not
be uniform throughout).

For example,
a.) What is the average density of the solar system?  The answer is
meaningless without knowing variations in structure and composition.
b.) How many atoms are in the Sun?  The answer depends on its
chemical composition.
c.) What is the average density of a balloon filled with helium?  The
answer depends on the temperature.

Here are a few papers from the literature that illustrate these points:

1. Fred Hoyle published a paper in the Astrophysics Journal 197,
L127-L131 (1975) suggesting that the Sun has a core with a high
concentration of iron-group metals.
2. Donald Clayton, Michael Newman, and Raymond Talbot published a
paper in the Astrophysics Journal 201, 489-493 (1975) suggesting that
the Sun has a black hole at its core.
3. Peter Toth published a paper in Nature 270, 159-160 (1977)
suggesting that the Sun's oscillations mean it is a pulsar.

These scientists, the reviewers, and editors all knew the average
density of the Sun.  They also knew that the Sun's average density
does not rule out an iron-rich solar core, a central black hole, or a
pulsating neutron star!

Absurd? To suggest that a system could form by gravitational
aggregation and have the very lightest element in existence - hydrogen
- settle to form the core while the heavier elements spin out towards
the periphery is absurd. The Earth does not have an iron mantle with
the atmosphere inside. Why? Because gravitation doesn't work like that,
that's why.

Finally, many of your eroneous conclusions are based on the prior
assumption that the Sun's energy is derived from nuclear fusion at the
core. It isn't, but that is something you could find out for yourself
by following the links I suggested.

Regards, Hilton
dwhig265@aol.com - 18 Nov 2005 22:47 GMT
." We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van
Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point."

Dear Mr. Ratcliffe,
  I appreciate your stance above, as I am a dissident amateur, but how
do you account for the rise time of the light curves of highly red
shifted Ia supernovae?
  Arp completely ignored it in "Seeing Red"  Regards, Dwain W.
Higginbotham
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 19 Nov 2005 06:28 GMT
> ." We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van
> Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point."
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>    Arp completely ignored it in "Seeing Red"  Regards, Dwain W.
> Higginbotham

Dear Dwain,
Thank you for your courteous query. I have not studied that specific
SNe light curve data, and am therefore not quite sure that I understand
what the problem is. If you could give me a bit more detail and
possibly some references, and I'll see I can help you or refer you to
someone who can.
The proceedings have not yet been published by AIP (due out December),
but when they are, I'm sure you would find the papers "Falsification of
the Expanding Universe Model" and "Derivation of the Hubble Redshift
and the Metric in a Static Universe" by Tom Andrews (referred to in my
report) of great interest. You could contact him directly at
tba@xoba.com. He's an affable, friendly guy who applies a systematic
engineering approach to problems in physics.
Regards, Hilton
dwhig265@aol.com - 19 Nov 2005 20:34 GMT
> ." We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van
> Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point."

> Dear Mr. Ratcliffe,
>    I appreciate your stance above, as I am a dissident amateur, but how
> do you account for the rise time of the light curves of highly red
> shifted Ia supernovae?
>    Arp completely ignored it in "Seeing Red"  Regards, Dwain W.
> Higginbotham

Dear Dwain,
Thank you for your courteous query. I have not studied that specific
SNe light curve data, and am therefore not quite sure that I understand

what the problem is.

Dear Dr. Ratcliffe,
  The opening line I quoted "We are now certain that it is not" in
total context was that you were now certain that the universe was not
expanding. For you to make this statement and not know what I'm talking
about regarding IaSne light curve rise time observations seems
incredible. Said observations prove conclusively that the universe is
expanding, and elsewhere in this thread I have offered $100,000 to the
first person that can disprove a theory I have that depends on said
expansion.
  I was pretty excited when Marcel opened this thread but its
beginning to sound like Androclese, Retic, etal are involved!  Good
luck anyway and you'll be hearing from me further as you get organized.
Sincerely D.W.H.
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 19 Nov 2005 21:36 GMT
Dear Dwain,

Your response makes it a little more clear. Perhaps I am remiss in not
having followed this thread from the beginning (I discovered only
yesterday by accident that my report was being discussed here) and so I
am not in the picture historically. I do know what SNe light curve rise
times are (I am an astronomer) but don't understand what the the
problem is because they most certainly do not "prove conclusively thet
the universe is expanding". However, I respect your point of view, and
accept that it is a reasoned one. State your case, with supporting
data, and, if you like, we can discuss it. If you would rather not,
that's your call.
I would suggest that in preference to offering $100K for the
falsification of your theory, you would serve yourself better by
writing a properly formulated paper on it and getting it through peer
review with a mainstream journal. It's a sticky process, full of
iniquities, but getting your ideas onto arXiv would expose them to wide
review, and the simple fact of the matter is that ideas then get taken
more seriously (and I'm sure you want your theory to be taken
seriously).
Good luck to you too.
Regards, Hilton
dwhig265@aol.com - 23 Nov 2005 17:17 GMT
40. ratcl...@iafrica.com
Nov 19, 4:36 pm   show options

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From: ratcl...@iafrica.com - Find messages by this author
Date: 19 Nov 2005 13:36:13 -0800
Local: Sat, Nov 19 2005 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: Non-expanding universe
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Dear Dwain,
Your response makes it a little more clear. Perhaps I am remiss in not
having followed this thread from the beginning (I discovered only
yesterday by accident that my report was being discussed here) and so I

am not in the picture historically. I do know what SNe light curve rise

times are (I am an astronomer) but don't understand what the the
problem is because they most certainly do not "prove conclusively thet
the universe is expanding". However, I respect your point of view, and
accept that it is a reasoned one. State your case, with supporting
data, and, if you like, we can discuss it. If you would rather not,
that's your call. Regards, Hilton

Dear Hilton,
  I would like very much to discuss the IaSne light curve rise times
with you. I'm not sure I have any supporting data as most of what I
think I know has come from internet discussions with people I had
reason to believe, knew what they were talking about. I am suspending
my $100k offer pending the outcome of our discussion. My understanding
is that IaSne are the best candles ever discovered because they can be
readily identified and all blow up in largely the same fasion.    In a
non redshifted environment (in our "local group), their light curve
rise time to maximum brightness from the moment of explosion is 21
days. I have been assured by Ned Wright that z numbers are percentages
of the speed of light at least up to z = 1.5. Using the formula given
to me by Nick Suntzef of one of the high z supernova red shift
teams----(z + 1) x 21 = rise time in days---- gives a rise time at z =
1.5 of 52.5 days. This IaSn has a rise time in its own galaxy of 21
days but because it is hurtling away from us at one and one half times
the speed of light, it takes 52.5 days to reach maximum brightness from
the viewpoint of an Earthbound observer. By extrapolation, a IaSn at
the limit of our telescopes travelling at z = 14.0 would reach maximum
brightness in 315 days. These observations conclusively prove to me
that the Universe is expanding.
                        Regards, Dwain W. Higginbotham
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 26 Nov 2005 17:30 GMT
> Dear Hilton,
>    I would like very much to discuss the IaSne light curve rise times
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> that the Universe is expanding.
>                          Regards, Dwain W. Higginbotham

Dear Dwain,

Thank you your reply. Whatever you do, don't take my word for
anything. Apply your mind to the evidence (much of which you are going
to have to dig up for yourself) and follow wherever it leads. I'm
pleased to see that you have been in contact with Ned Wright. He is an
arch evangelist for Big Bang theory, and in Ned you have someone well
qualified to argue the orthodox view. If you have visited his site, you
no doubt came across his critique of Eric Lerner's book "The Big
Bang Never Happened." To balance that picture, it would be useful for
you to read also Eric's rebuttal: "Dr Wright is Wrong"
http://bigbangneverhappened.org/ .
The issue here as I understand it is whether or not the universe is
undergoing systematic expansion, and whether or not SNe rise times
support that contention. We need to check theoretical viability,
accuracy and representivity of observational data samples, correctness
of interpretation, and any occurrence of ambiguity in the results.
It's important to point out at the outset that I have no interest in
fancy theories existing in conceptual isolation; our enquiry should be
aimed at deriving an explanation for what happens in the real world,
and that immediately requires that we accept the existence of such a
thing as substantial reality independent of observation. The stars and
galaxies that we are about to discuss are real things, not ideas or
models. Do we have common ground?
"In principle, the expansion history of the cosmos can be determined
quite easily, using as a 'standard candle' any distinguishable
class of astronomical objects of known intrinsic brightness that can be
identified over a wide distance range...[light travel time] can be
determined by comparing its apparent brightness to a nearby standard of
the same class of astrophysical objects." (Saul Perlmutter, Physics
Today April 2003, p53). Note that Perlmutter starts with expansion as a
given. This is a problem of approach that is pervasive in science and
acts to the detriment of realistic, objective interpretation of
observational data.
The compelling elegance of Tom Andrews' approach (Falsification of
the Expanding Universe Model and Derivation of the Hubble Redshift and
the Metric in a Static Universe, AIP: Proceedings of the First Crisis
in Cosmology Conference, ibid) is that he invokes another class of
standard candle, namely brightest cluster galaxies, and compares the
light signatures with contemporary 1a SNe. If the anomalous dimming is
caused by Big Bang's postulated expanding space, then the effect
should be seen in the light curves of all standard candles, not just 1a
SNe. Right? Using two independent sets of data for expansion with a
third set (compiled by Goldhaber) as a basis for examining time
dilation, Andrews shows that the broadening effects in galaxy light is
consistent with neither the expanding universe model nor the notion of
time dilation, and in fact directly supports a static (non-expanding)
universe model. Unfortunately, Tom Andrews has not yet completed
compiling pdf files of his papers, but you could contact him at
tba@xoba.com if you have questions. We will have to wait until the
proceedings are published to obtain copies of his papers so that you
can study them and draw your own conclusions. If I can get electronic
copies, I will forward them to you.
Another paper I would recommend is "Evidence for a Non-Expanding
Universe: Surface Brightness Data from HUDF", which was presented at
CCC-1 by Eric Lerner (http://bigbangneverhappened.org/). In it, Lerner
tests Hubble Ultra Deep Field (HUDF) data against the
Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW) metric. His conclusions do not favour
FRW cosmology, and need to be considered by anyone seriously
investigating the origins and destiny of the Universe. As a matter of
interest, this paper became a rallying cry for the Alternative
Cosmology Group because the anonymous reviewers censoring arXiv at
first arbitrarily rejected it. Eric had to apply a great deal of
pressure to get it published, and his success here marked a watershed
in the fight to get alternative views published alongside the
orthodoxy.
An excellent summary of the principles of SNe light broadening and rise
times is contained in Tom van Flandern's article "Do Supernovas
Prove an Expanding Universe?" (Meta Research Bulletin June 15, 2004).
Quote: "There is no such thing as a standard single supernova (SN)
lightcurve. SN of Type 1a are standard candles only in the sense that
their intrinsic maxima are limited to a range of a couple of
magnitudes, but this still covers a variety of light curve widths. More
importantly, there is no correlation between lightcurve width and
redshift beyond that expected from Malmquist bias (the tendency to see
only the brightest objects in any class at the greatest distances). The
correlation you speak of appears only when brightness is inferred using
assumptions about the redshift-distance relation. In fact, it is
precisely because the supernovae do not follow the expected behaviour
that forces BB proponents to infer that the universe's expansion is
now accelerating." Read the discussion for yourself at
http://metaresearch.org/msgboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=517 and also
TOPIC_ID=526. While you are there, take a look also at "Did the
Universe Have a Beginning?" It examines 7 standard tests for
expansion and the fit of their results in both expanding and static
models.
Finally (for now, more to follow if you want), read Jerry W. Jensen's
"Supernovae Light Curves: An Argument for a New Distance Modulus"
at http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0404/0404207.pdf . Please pay
particular attention to the section starting at the bottom of page 6,
"Supernova 1a Rise Times", and the part around figures 6 - 8
preceding it. Jensen's compelling argument shows that the SNe data
contain no evidence of time dilation. This is crucial, because if Ia
SNe have no time dilation, that removes the implication that they
moving away from us, and we may therefore with confidence deduce that
the universe is not expanding. Quote (referring to Arp's abundant
evidence of AGN - QSO links): "That astronomers continue to doubt
these convincing visual and tomographic radio images is one of the
perplexing consequences of the power of preconceptions on the
interpretive functions of the human mind."
You will readily appreciate that since Big Bang, with all its nuances,
was derived originally from General Relativity, which in turn is a
superset of Special Relativity, the magnitude of the can of worms being
opened by our challenge is daunting to say the least. The way to
proceed is simply to take it one step at a time and carefully note the
outcome each time, much as one would do in tackling a complex
differential equation term by term. At the cost of repeating myself, a
clear example is that given by Yurij Baryshev - the Friedmann model
does not permit large-scale structure, yet that is precisely we see for
as far as our instruments can take us. Now we ask ourselves, which do
we believe, the underlying mathematical constraint, or the observations
obtained from every side?
Regards,
Hilton
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 27 Nov 2005 22:37 GMT
> > Dear Hilton,
> >    I would like very much to discuss the IaSne light curve rise times
[quoted text clipped - 133 lines]
> Regards,
> Hilton

Dear Hilton,

You rightly wrote:

> the Friedmann model
> does not permit large-scale structure, yet that is precisely we see for
> as far as our instruments can take us. Now we ask ourselves, which do
> we believe, the underlying mathematical constraint, or the observations
> obtained from every side?

The main problem is to find the best way to get rid of the current
paradigm, because
all the observations we get day after day are simply discarded by the
""mainstreamers",
who try to keep the money they enjoy in their sinecure. Imo, the only
way is
propaganda, which is the reason why I put the reference "Bigbang
epicycles" in my
home page http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mluttgens/Big%20Bang%20epicycles.htm
.
Accept it or not, I don't find another way.

Marcel