Non-expanding universe
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mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 15 Nov 2005 15:35 GMT Non-expanding universe
Some arguments are given below. Of course, the anti-Bigbangers are crackpots! ;-)
Marcel Luttgens
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The First "Crisis in Cosmology" Conference held in Moncao, Portugal, 2005 June 23-25
(Source: MNASSA, vol 64, nos 9 & 10, p 144-151)
Hilton Ratcliffe ratcliff@iafrica.com
The Editors have requested a mainstream cosmologist to comment on this article, bearing in mind its unorthodox viewpoint. The rebuttal will appear in the November- December issue of MNASSA.
In May 2004, a group of about 30 concerned scientists published an open letter to the global scientific community in New Scientist in which they protested the stranglehold of Big Bang theory on cosmological research and funding. The letter was placed on the Internet (http://www.cosmologystatement.org) and rapidly attracted wide attention. It currently has about 300 signatories representing scientists and researchers of disparate backgrounds, and has led to a loose association now known as the Alternative Cosmology Group (http://www.cosmology.info). The author was one of the early signatories to the letter, and holding the view that the Big Bang explanation of the Universe is scientifically untenable, patently illogical, and without any solid observational support whatsoever, became involved in the organisation of an international forum where we could share ideas and plan our way forward. That idea became a reality with the staging of the "First Crisis in Cosmology Conference" (CCC-1) in the lovely, medieval walled village of Moncao, in far northern Portugal, over three days in June of this year.
It was sponsored in part by the University of Minho in Braga (Portugal)
and the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin (Texas, USA). Professor Jose Almeida of the Department of Physics at the University of Minho was instrumental in the organisation and ultimate success of an event that is now to be held annually. The conference was arranged in three sessions. On the first day, papers were presented on observations that challenge the present model, the second day dealt with conceptual difficulties in the standard model, and we concluded with alternative cosmological world-views. Since it is not practicable here to review all the papers presented (some 34 in total, plus six posters), I'll selectively confine my comments to those that interested me particularly. The American Institute of Physics will publish the proceedings of the conference in their entirety in due course for those interested in the details.
First up was professional astronomer Dr Riccardo Scarpa of the European Southern Observatory (Santiago, Chile). His job involves working with the magnificent Very Large Telescope array at Paranal, and I guess that makes him the envy of just about every astronomer with blood in his veins! His paper was on Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND), which I had eagerly anticipated and thoroughly appreciated. MOND is a very exciting development in observational astronomy used to make dark matter redundant in the explanation of cosmic gravitational effects like the anomalous rotational speeds of galaxies. Mordehai Milgrom of the Weizmann Institute (Israel) first noticed that mass discrepancies in stellar systems are detected only when the internal acceleration of gravity falls below the well-established value a0 = 1.2 x 10^-8 cm?s^-2. The standard Newtonian gravitational values fit perfectly above this threshold, and below a0 MOND posits a breakdown of Newton's law. The dependence then becomes linear with an asymptotic value of acceleration a = sqrt((a0 g)), where g is the Newtonian value. Scarpa has called this the weak gravitational regime, and he and colleagues Marconi and Gilmozzi have applied it extensively to globular clusters with 100% success. What impressed me most was that the clear empirical basis of MOND has been thoroughly tested, and is now in daily use by professional astronomers at what is arguably the most sophisticated and advanced optical-infrared observatory in the world. In practice, there is no need to invoke dark matter. Quote from Riccardo: "Dark matter is the craziest idea we've ever had in astronomy. It can appear when you need it, it can do what you like, be distributed in any way you like. It is the fairy tale of astronomy".
Big Bang theory depends critically on three first principles: that the Universe is holistically and systematically expanding as per the Friedmann model; that General Relativity correctly describes gravitation; and that Milne's Cosmological Principle, which declares that the Universe at some arbitrary "large scale" is isotropic and homogeneous, is true. The falsification of any one of these principles would lead to the catastrophic failure of the theory. We saw at the conference that all three can be successfully challenged on the basis of empirical science. Retired electrical engineer Tom Andrews presented a novel approach to the validation (or rather, invalidation) of the expanding Universe model. It is well known that type Ia supernovae (SNe) show measurable anomalous dimming (with distance or remoteness in time) in a flat expanding Universe model. Andrews used observational data from two independent sets of measurements of brightest cluster galaxies (defined as the brightest galaxy in a cluster). It was expected, since the light from the SNe and the bright galaxies traverses the same space to get to us, that the latter should also be anomalously dimmed. They clearly are not. The orthodox explanation for SNe dimming - that it is the result of the progressive expansion of space - is thereby refuted. He puts a further nail in the coffin by citing Goldhaber's study of SNe light curves, which did not reveal the second predicted light-broadening effect due to time dilation. Says Andrews: "The Hubble redshift of Fourier harmonic frequencies [for SNe] is shown to broaden the light curve at the observer by (1 + z). Since this broadening spreads the total luminosity over a longer time period, the apparent luminosity at the observer is decreased by the same factor. This accounts quantitatively for the dimming of SNe. On the other hand, no anomalous dimming occurs for galaxies since the luminosity remains constant over time periods much longer than the light travel time to the observer. This effect is consistent with the non-expanding Universe model. The expanding model is logically falsified."
Professor Mike Disney of the School of Physics and Astronomy at Cardiff University calls a spade a spade. He has created an interesting benchmark for the evaluation of scientific models - he compares the number of free parameters in a theory with the number of independent measurements, and sets an arbitrary minimum of +3 for the excess of measurements over free parameters to indicate that the theory is empirically viable. He ran through the exercise for the Big Bang model, and arrived at a figure of -3 (17 free parameters against 14 measured). He therefore argued that the there is little statistical significance in the good fits claimed by Big Bang cosmologists since the surfeit of free parameters can easily mould new data to fit a desired conclusion. Quote: "The study of some 60 cultures, going back 12,000 years, shows that, like it or not, we will always have a cosmology, and there have always been more free parameters than independent measurements. The best model is a compromise between parsimony (Occam's razor) and goodness-of-fit."
Disney has a case there, and it is amply illustrated when it comes to Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN) - which depends initially on an arbitrarily set baryon/photon ratio - and the abundances of chemical elements. Dr Tom van Flandern is another straight talking, no frills man of science. He opened his abstract with the words "The Big Bang has never achieved a true prediction success where the theory was placed at risk of falsification before the results were known." Ten years ago, Tom's web site listed the "Top Ten Problems with the Big Bang", and today he has limited it to the Top Fifty. He pointed out the following contradictions in predicted light element abundances: observed deuterium abundances don't tie up with observed abundances of 4He and 7Li, and attempts to explain this inconsistency have failed. The ratio of deuterium to hydrogen near the centre of the Milky Way is five orders of magnitude higher than the Standard Model predicts, and measuring either for quasars produces deviation from predictions. Also problematic for BBN are barium and beryllium, produced assumedly as secondary products of supernovae by the process of spallation. However, observations of metal-poor stars show greater abundance of Be than possible by spallation. Van Flandern: "It should be evident to objective minds that nothing about the Universe interpreted with the Big Bang theory is necessarily right, not even the most basic idea in it that the Universe is expanding."
Problems in describing the geometry of the Universe were dealt with by several speakers, and we must here of course drill down a bit to where the notion came from (in the context of Big Bang theory). The theory originated in Father Georges Lemâitre's extensions to Friedmann's solution of the Einstein General Relativity (GR) field equations, which showed that the Universe described in GR could not be static as Einstein believed. From this starting point emerged some irksome dilemmas regarding the fundamental nature of space and the distribution of matter within it. It was here more than anywhere that the rich diversity of opinion and approach within the Alternative Cosmology Group was demonstrated. Professor Yurij Baryshev of the Institute of Astronomy at St Petersburg State University quietly presented his argument against the Cosmological Principle: large-scale structure is not possible in the Friedmann model, yet observation shows it for as far as we can see. I had recently read Yurij's book The Discovery of Cosmic Fractals, and knew that he had studied the geometric fractals of Yale's famous professor Benoit Mandelbrot, which in turn led to his extrapolation of a fractal (inhomogeneous, anisotropic) non-expanding large-scale universe. Conference co-ordinator professor Jose Almeida presented a well-argued case for an interesting and unusual worldview: a hyperspherical Universe of 4-D Euclidean space (called 4-Dimensional Optics or 4DO) rather than the standard non-Euclidean Minkowski space. Dr Franco Selleri of the Università di Bari (Italy) provided an equally interesting alternative - the certainty that the Universe in which we live and breathe is a construction in simple 3-D Euclidean space precludes the possibility of the Big Bang model. He says: "No structure in three dimensional space, born from an explosion that occurred 10 to 20 billion years ago, could resemble the Universe we observe." The key to Selleri's theory is absolute simultaneity, obtained by using a term e1 (the coefficient of x in the transformation of time) in the Lorentz transformations, so that e1 = 0. Setting e1 = 0 separates time and space, and a conception of reality is introduced in which no room is left for a fourth dimension. Both Big Bang and its progenitor General Relativity depend critically on 4-D Minkowski space, so the argument regressed even further to the viability of Relativity itself. And here is where the big guns come in!
World-renowned mathematical physicist professor Huseyin Yilmaz, formerly of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton University, and his hands-on experimentalist colleague professor Carrol Alley of the University of Maryland, introduced us to the Yilmaz cosmology. Altogether four papers were presented at CCC-1 on various aspects of Yilmaz theory, and a fifth, by Dr Hal Puthoff of the Institute for Advanced Studies, was brought to the conference but not presented. It is no longer controversial to suggest that GR has flaws, although I still feel awkward saying it out loud! Professor Yilmaz focussed on the fact that GR excludes gravitational stress-energy as a source of curvature. Consequently, stress-energy is merely a coordinate artefact in GR, whereas in the Yilmaz modification it is a true tensor. Hal Puthoff described the GR term to me as a "pseudo-tensor, which can appear or disappear depending on how you treat mass." The crucial implication of this, in the words of professor Alley, is that since "interactions are carried by the field stress energy, there are no interactive n-body solutions to the field equations of General Relativity." In plain language, GR is a single-body description of gravity! The Yilmaz equations contain the correct terms, and they have been applied with success to various vexing problems, for example the precession of Mercury's perihelion, lunar laser ranging measurements, the flying of atomic clocks in aircraft, the relativistic behaviour of clocks in the GPS, and the predicted Sagnac effect in the one-way speed of light on a rotating table. Anecdote from professor Alley: at a lecture by Einstein in the 1920's, professor Sagnac was in the audience. He questioned Einstein on the gedanken experiment regarding contra-radiating light on a rotating plate. Einstein thought for a while and said, "That has got nothing to do with relativity". Sagnac loudly replied, "In that case, Dr Einstein, relativity has got nothing to do with reality!"
The great observational "proof" of Big Bang theory is undoubtedly the grandly titled Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, stumbled upon by radio engineers Penzias and Wilson in 1965, hijacked by Princeton cosmologist Jim Peebles, and demurely described by UC's COBE data analyser Dr George Smoot as "like looking at the fingerprint of God." Well, it's come back to haunt them! I was delighted that despite some difficulties Glenn Starkman of Case Western Reserve University was able to get his paper presented at the conference as I had been keenly following his work on the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) data. Dr Starkman has discovered some unexpected (for Big Bangers) characteristics (he describes them as "bizarre") in the data that have serious consequences for the Standard Model. Far from having the smooth, Gaussian distribution predicted by Big Bang, the microwave picture has distinct anisotropies, and what's more says Starkman, they are clearly aligned with local astrophysical structures, particularly the ecliptic of the solar system. Once the dipole harmonic is stripped to remove the effect of the motion of the solar system, the other harmonics, quadrupole, octopole, and so on reveal a distinct alignment with local objects, and show also a preferred direction towards the Virgo supercluster. Conference chair, plasma physicist Eric Lerner concurred in his paper. He suggested that the microwave background is nothing more than a radio fog produced by plasma filaments, which has reached a natural isotropic thermal equilibrium of just under 3K. The radiation is simply starlight that has been absorbed and re-radiated, and echoes the anisotropies of the world around us. These findings correlate with the results of a number of other independent studies, including that of Larson and Wandelt at the University of Illinois, and also of former Cambridge enfant terrible and current Imperial College theoretical physics prodigy, professor Joao Magueijo. Quote from Starkman: "This suggests that the reported microwave background fluctuations on large angular scales are not in fact cosmic, with important consequences." Phew!
The final day saw us discussing viable alternative cosmologies, and here one inevitably leans towards personal preferences. My own bias is unashamedly towards scientists who adopt the classical empirical method, and there is no better example of this than Swedish plasma physics pioneer and Nobel laureate Hannes Alfven. Consequently, I favoured the paper on plasma cosmology presented by Eric Lerner, and as a direct result of that inclination find it very difficult here to be brief! Lerner summarised the basic premises: most of the Universe is plasma, so the effect of electromagnetic force on a cosmic scale is at least comparable to gravitation. Plasma cosmology assumes no origin in time for the Universe, and can therefore accommodate the conservation of energy/matter. Since we see evidence of evolution all around us, we can assume evolution in the Universe, though not at the pace or on the scale of the Big Bang. Lastly, plasma cosmology tries to explain as much of the Universe as possible using known physics, and does not invoke assistance from supernatural elements. Plasmas are scale invariant, so we can safely infer large-scale plasma activity from what we see terrestrially. Gravity acts on filaments, which condense into "blobs" and disks form. As the body contracts, it gets rid of angular momentum which is conducted away by plasma. Lerner's colleague Anthony Peratt of Los Alamos Laboratory modelled plasma interaction and has arrived at a compelling simulation of the morphogenesis of galaxies. Since plasma cosmology has no time constraints, the development of large-scale structures - so problematic for Big Bang - is accommodated. Lerner admits that there's still a lot of work to be done, but with the prospect of more research funding coming our way, he foresees the tidying up of the theory into a workable cosmological model.
No account of CCC-1 would be near complete without a summary of a paper that caught all of us by complete surprise. Professor Oliver Manuel is not an astronomer. Nor indeed is he a physicist. He is a nuclear chemist, chairman of the Department of Chemistry at the University of Missouri, and held in high enough esteem to be one of a handful of scientists entrusted with the job of analysing Moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions. His "telescope" is a mass spectrometer, and he uses it to identify and track isotopes in the terrestrial neighbourhood. His conclusions are astonishing, yet I can find no fault with his arguments. The hard facts that emerge from professor Manuel's study indicate that the chemical composition of the Sun beneath the photosphere is predominantly iron! Manuel's thesis has passed peer review in several mainstream journals, including Nature, Science, and the Journal of Nuclear Fusion. He derives a completely revolutionary Solar Model, one which spells big trouble for BBN. The latest published data from the SOHO and TRACE satellites unambiguously support Manuel's hypothesis, and that's about as much as I can say here. Watch this space!
The conference concluded with a stirring concert by a three-piece baroque chamber music ensemble, and it gave me cause to reflect that it appeared that only in our appreciation of music did we find undiluted harmony. That the Big Bang theory will pass into history as an artefact of man's obsession with dogma is a certainty; it will do so on its own merits, however, because it stands on feet of clay. For a viable replacement theory to emerge solely from the efforts of the Alternative Cosmology Group is unlikely unless the group can soon find cohesive direction, and put into practice the undertaking that we become completely interdisciplinary in our approach. Nonetheless, that there is a crisis in the world of science is now confirmed. Papers presented at the conference by some of the world's leading scientists showed beyond doubt that the weight of scientific evidence clearly indicates that the dominant theory on the origin and destiny of the Universe is deeply flawed. The implications of this damning consensus are serious indeed, and will in time fundamentally affect not only the direction of many scientific disciplines, but also threaten to change the very way that we do science. -- About the author: Kwa Zulu Natal-born Hilton Ratcliffe is an astrophysics graduate currently researching transient galaxy dynamics. He is a member of ASSA, the Durban Centre of ASSA, and the Astronomical Society of the Pacific, and is an Associate of the (British) Institute of Physics. He describes his recreational interests as astronomy (naturally!), wildlife, linear algebra, and entertaining charges of heresy and sedition.
Cf. October, 2005 PROGRESS IN PHYSICS Volume 3
The First Crisis in Cosmology Conference Monçao,Portugal,June 23-25 2005
Hilton Ratcliffe Astronomical Society of Southern Africa E-mail:ratcliff@iafrica.com The author attended the first Crisis in Cosmology Conference of the recently associated Alternative Cosmology Group,and makes an informal report on the proceedings with some detail on selected presentations.
***
http://www.cosmology.info/
About the Alternative Cosmology Group
The Alternative Cosmology Group (ACG) was initiated with the Open Letter on Cosmology written to the scientific community and published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004. The letter points to the fundamental problems of the Big Bang theory, and to the unjustified limiting of cosmological funding to work within the Big Bang framework. The epicyclic character of the theory, piling ad-hoc hypothesis upon hypothesis, its incompleteness and the appearance of a singularity in the big bang universe beginning require consideration of alternatives. This has become particularly necessary with the increasing number of observations that contradict the theory's predictions. Big Bang cosmology has been in a crisis since the early 90's when the Cold Dark Matter model began to fail. Fifteen years later, this crisis has worsened, despite the addition of dark energy. Observations fail to show the dramatic differences between the high-redshift and local universe required by the Big Bang theory. We still find normal galaxies, heavy elements, strings and clusters of galaxies at the further and further shifting outskirts of the observable universe. The anisotropy of the cosmic background radiation, the existence of very large-scale structures, the cosmic anisotropy to electromagnetic wave propagation are among many observations that contradict Big Bang expectations. At the same time, non-Big Bang alternatives have increasingly shown promise to coherently explain the observations and to predict new phenomena. We believe, therefore, that a shift in effort in cosmology to these alternatives is essential if the field is to advance.
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See also:
Evidence for a Non-Expanding Universe: Surface Brightness Data From HUDF Eric J. Lerner Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc. Email: elerner@igc.org
Abstract.
Surface brightness data can distinguish between a Friedman-Robertson-Walker expanding universe and a non-expanding universe. For surface brightness
measured in AB magnitudes per angular area, all FRW models, regardless of cosmological parameters, predict that surface brightness declines with redshift as (z+1)^-3, while any non-expanding model predicts that surface brightness is constant with distance and thus with z. High-z UV surface brightness data for galaxies from the Hubble Ultra Deep Field and low-z data from GALEX are used to test the predictions of these two models up to z=6. A preliminary analysis presented here of samples observed at the same at-galaxy wavelengths in the UV shows that surface brightness is constant, mu =kz^0.026+-0.15 , consistent with the non-expanding model. This relationship holds if distance is linearly proportional to z at all redshifts, but seems insensitive to the particular choice of d-z relationship. Attempts to reconcile the data with FRW predictions by assuming that high-z galaxies have intrinsically higher surface brightness than low-z galaxies appear to face insurmountable problems. The intrinsic FUV surface brightness required by the FRW models for high-z galaxies exceeds the maximum FUV surface brightness of any low-z galaxy by as much as a factor of 40. Dust absorption appears to make such extremely high intrinsic FUV surface brightness physically impossible. If confirmed by further analysis, the impossibility of such high-m galaxies would rule out all FRW expanding universe (big bang) models.
Themistocles - 15 Nov 2005 16:00 GMT you are wrong, becus if the universe would contract and not expand then wen you go outside you see the stars comming against you at high speed and everybody becomes scarry
Daniel Weston - 15 Nov 2005 21:05 GMT Marcel: Thanks for your post above. I especially noted that the meeting in Monaco was international in scope, and attended by dissidents that were well credentialed. This will give more editors the courage and incentive to post articles that question the paradigm.
The observations, that about the theoretical time of BB, we already had old galaxies and galaxy groups, makes the BB theory one tough cookie to swallow. I hope that posters to this NG such as John Anderson and Bilge, will become a little less reluctant to insult people that express dissatisfaction with the BBT. I note with considerable satisfaction that the BBT is collecting an impressive number of epicycles.
kenseto - 16 Nov 2005 13:42 GMT > Marcel: Thanks for your post above. I especially noted that the > meeting in Monaco was international in scope, and attended by dissidents [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dissatisfaction with the BBT. I note with considerable satisfaction > that the BBT is collecting an impressive number of epicycles. The BB model can be modified to be epicycle free. The following link describes such a modified model. http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2005Cosmology.pdf
Ken Seto
dwhig265@aol.com - 15 Nov 2005 21:38 GMT Dear Marcel, I think you people are on the right track. I am an amateur cosmologist and have offered up to $25,000 to the first person to disprove my idea that the Milky Way galaxy and local group, orbits the center of the universe. I would welcome a conversation with mainstream scientists, but I have never met anyone that has shown the slightest interest. Your article gives me great solace that you main streamers may be finally coming to your senses, and are beginning to doubt the conspiratorial shenanigans of 100 years ago that COULD NOT POSSIBLY be correct in light of todays technology. I don't really expect to hear from you but I thank you for the article which I am going to save, to show I had copyrighted solutions to all the questions you raise in said article, as far back as 1990. Respectfully, your article inspires me to offer $100,000 to you, or the first person to disprove my aforementioned idea about the M/W orbit, for 30 days from todays date. Sincerely, Dwain W. Higginbotham
Dr Nanduri - 17 Nov 2005 12:53 GMT THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE. I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE and Universe as part of the COSMOS.The origins lie through Vedas. My books have projections and I welcome interaction. Milky Way holds the key at the bottom end one needs to integrate: SRISTI STITHI LAYA - CREATION, STABILTY and Dissolution: This helps Science to advance. COSMOLOGY -Vedas see: Google search You are welcome to contact me any time if you are serious. Vidyardhi Nanduri
> Dear Marcel, > I think you people are on the right track. I am an amateur [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > first person to disprove my aforementioned idea about the M/W orbit, > for 30 days from todays date. Sincerely, Dwain W. Higginbotham Black Knight - 17 Nov 2005 14:57 GMT > THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE. > I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> first person to disprove my aforementioned idea about the M/W orbit, >> for 30 days from todays date. Sincerely, Dwain W. Higginbotham I am an amateur phuckwit for the day and offer up to $25,000 to the first person to disprove my idea that bright green flying elephants lay eggs in black holes. I am not an amateur logician. Androcles
jem - 18 Nov 2005 13:16 GMT >>THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE. >>I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I am not an amateur logician. > Androcles A hole is an absence of matter, eggs are matter, ergo a hole can't contain eggs. QED
ps. I'm sending Guido to pick up the 25 G's.
Black Knight - 18 Nov 2005 16:09 GMT >>>THE PRESENT DAY CONCERN and COSMOLOGY CRISIS is UNDERSTANDABLE. >>>I am looking at the incompleteness in the comprehension of the UNIVERSE [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > ps. I'm sending Guido to pick up the 25 G's. You are just being logical. I'm being an amateur phuckfit. According to the theory of relativity, a money and it's fool are soon parted. Androcles
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT > Non-expanding universe > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ---- Snip
> Big Bang theory depends critically on three first principles: that the > Universe is holistically and systematically expanding as per the > Friedmann model; This part has left me mystified. Why is there no model of the Big Bang in Euclidian space? Most of the little bangs that I've seen have occurred in apparently Euclidian space. Why must the universe be non-Euclidian for there to have been a big bang?
> that General Relativity correctly describes > gravitation; and that Milne's Cosmological Principle, which declares > that the Universe at some arbitrary "large scale" is isotropic and > homogeneous, is true. This third point is also obnoxious. None of the little bangs I have ever seen have been isotropic and homogeneous at an arbitrarily large scale. Little bangs have a round expanding shape! Why should the big bang be isotropic and homogeneous?
> The falsification of any one of these principles > would lead to the catastrophic failure of the theory. Anyway, I believe we can falsify points 1 and 3 and still have a big bang.
Even if (a) the universe is not homogeneous on an arbitrarily large scale or (b) the universe occupies a Euclidian metric instead of a Friedmann metric, I would still call an explosion containing all the matter in the visible universe (and then some) a "Big Bang." To say otherwise, you would probably be in disagreement with most humans who would probably classify themselves as "medium", and to whom the visible universe would, hence, be "big.")
This argument that there was no big bang seems to be missing the entire point. The galaxies are moving away from us, and the farther they are away, the faster they are moving. And the equation to predict how far away they are, (no surprise here) is distance=rate * time, which is high-school algebra stuff. Unless you have another explanation for this, or if you find that distance is, in some cases, NOT equal to rate * time, which could only be explained by a different starting position, then we have no other viable explanation except for a single point of origin, or at least a small region of origin.
If you want to launch into a "no big bang" argument, attack the basics, not the hocus pocus about expanding space and homogeneity at an arbitrarily large scale.
Daniel Weston - 16 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT I have seen a lot of small bangs. (SB) None start with anything approaching a singularity. There are ~100b galaxies with each containing ~100b suns. And we are told that modern science says that all that matter and energy came from something infinitely smaller than a pin head. That doesn't set well with me at all. I have taken the BBT and just put it on the shelf. I am suspending final judgement until we have more knowledge as to what is happening and what are the causalities. A lot of professional scientists have noted that the BBT is requiring an increasing number of epicycles. I have well braced myself for any ensuing scorn and ridicule from the defenders of the faith.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 03:38 GMT > I have seen a lot of small bangs. (SB) > None start with anything approaching a singularity. There are ~100b [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > increasing number of epicycles. I have well braced myself for any > ensuing scorn and ridicule from the defenders of the faith. That, I could live with. To me, an original finite volume for where the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations. There is a significant detail that should be noted here, though. Say you've started with all the matter compressed, not to a point, but to an sphere 1 meter across. It's very hot, and in the center portion, the matter is all moving in arbitrary directions, colliding willy-nilly.
Now, make an analysis of the situation from the perspective of any particle inside, after performing a Lorentz transformation into its reference frame.
The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding, at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe.
If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you wouldn't have this feature of a definite center.
I kind of like the singularity idea. (starting out at a point IN space, though, rather than the more common view of the Friedmann followers where space actually BECOMES a point along with the matter.) I also like the idea that somehow every single available quantum energy state is filled within that physical point in space. You may not like that idea.
Anyway, I'm not at all sure what an epicycle is, but I can tell you my opinion that this business of finding all the spherical harmonics of the Cosmic Background is a bunch of numerological hogwash. You know why? Because it isn't sound, and the universe isn't a big round drum!
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 05:14 GMT >> I have seen a lot of small bangs. (SB) >> None start with anything approaching a singularity. There are ~100b [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That, I could live with. To me, an original finite volume for where > the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations. The Ptolemaic system was not inconsistent with observation. It still isn't.
http://alpha.lasalle.edu/~smithsc/Astronomy/retrograd.html
What was your point?
> There is a significant detail that should be noted here, though. Say > you've started with all the matter compressed, not to a point, but to > an sphere 1 meter across. It's very hot, and in the center portion, > the matter is all moving in arbitrary directions, colliding > willy-nilly. Say you started with an infinite universe just as it is now, what evidence do you have for this supposed BB? Red shift? That doesn't work, E = h\nu for a photon, the surface area of a sphere has to contain all the energy at ANY radius.
> Now, make an analysis of the situation from the perspective of any > particle inside, after performing a Lorentz transformation into its > reference frame. Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot derive?
> The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding, > at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the > SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe. Give me the right ascension and declination to the centre, please.
> If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center. > > I kind of like the singularity idea. Ah.... you LIKE it. That means it must be so.
No arguing with faith...
Androcles.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 14:36 GMT > Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot > derive? I do know how to derive the Lorentz Transformation. The last ten or fifteen seconds of this animation show the derivation fairly quickly.
http://www.spoonfedrelativity.com/movies/summary.htm
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 21:01 GMT >> Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot >> derive? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.spoonfedrelativity.com/movies/summary.htm That's not how Einstein derived the cuckoo transformations. The problem you have I pointed out years ago, from Martin Gardner's explanation. Gardner's Paradox
By Androcles
In his booklet, "The Relativity Explosion", Martin Gardner writes (concerning two spacecraft passing each other).
How is it possible, you ask, for each ship to be shorter than the other? You ask an improper question. The theory does not say that each ship is shorter than the other; it says that astronauts on each ship measure the other ship as shorter. This is quite a different matter. If two people stand on opposite sides of a huge concave lens, each sees the other as smaller, but that is not the same as saying that each is smaller.
In addition to apparent changes in length, there are also apparent changes in time. Astronauts on each ship will find that clocks on the other ship are running slower. A simple thought experiment shows this must indeed be the case. Imagine you are looking out the porthole of one spaceship into the porthole of another ship. The two ships are passing each other with uniform speed close to that of light. As they pass, a beam of light on the other ship is sent from its ceiling to its floor. There it strikes a mirror and is reflected back to the ceiling again. You will see this as a V. If you had sufficiently accurate instruments (of course no such instruments exist), you could clock the time it takes this light beam to traverse the V-shaped path. By dividing the length of the path by the time, you obtain the speed of light.
Now suppose that while you clock the light beam on its V-shaped path, an astronaut is doing the same thing. From his point of view, assuming his ship to be the fixed frame of reference, the light beam simply goes up and down along the same line, obviously a shorter distance than along the V that you measured. When he divides this distance by the time it took the beam to go down and up, he also obtains the speed of light. Because the speed of light is constant for all observers, he must get exactly the same final result that you did: 299,800 kilometers per second. But his light path is shorter. How can his result be the same? There is only one [sic] possible explanation: his clock is slower. Of course, the situation is perfectly symmetrical. If you send a beam up and down inside your ship, he will see its path as a V-shape. He will deduce that your clock is slower.
Martin Gardner - The Relativity Explosion, ISBN 0-394-72104-7
I wonder if he means this only possible answer?
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(This is an animated GIF similar to your own description. I can email it if you wish)
The problem with the explanation.
Let us ask an improper question, and do so by paraphrasing Gardner.
The theory does not say that each ship is shorter than the other; it says that astronauts on each ship measure the other ship as shorter. (How can they, we have to ask? Since Gardner has already said no such instruments exist...such is the illogical thinking of the relativist.) This is quite a different matter. If two people stand on opposite sides of a huge convex lens, each sees the other as larger, but that is not the same as saying that each is larger.
In addition to apparent changes in length, there are also apparent changes in time. Astronauts on each ship will find that clocks on the other ship are running faster. A simple thought experiment shows this must indeed be the case. Imagine you are looking out the porthole of one spaceship into the porthole of another ship. The two ships are passing each other with uniform speed close to that of light. As they pass, a beam of light on the other ship is sent from its ceiling at the bow to its floor at midships. That is as the nose of the ship is passing your porthole, the light begins at the ceiling, and arrives at the floor as the middle of the ship, which has now moved directly opposite your porthole. There it strikes a mirror and is reflected back to the ceiling again, now at the tail. You will see this as a vertical line. If you had sufficiently accurate instruments (of course no such instruments exist), you could clock the time it takes this light beam to traverse the vertical path. By dividing the length of the path by the time, you obtain the speed of light.
Now suppose that while you clock the light beam on its vertical path, an astronaut is doing the same thing. From his point of view, assuming his ship to be the fixed frame of reference, the light beam simply goes along a V-shaped path, obviously a greater distance than along the vertical path that you measured. When he divides this distance by the time it took the beam to go down and up, he also obtains the speed of light. Because the speed of light is constant for all observers, he must get exactly the same final result that you did: 299,800 kilometers per second. But his light path is longer. How can his result be the same? There is only one possible explanation: his clock is faster. Of course, the situation is perfectly symmetrical. If you send a beam on a V-shaped path inside your ship, he will see its path as a vertical line. He will deduce that your clock is faster.
Having deduced through simple logic that something is wrong, we have two contradictory results from a single supposition, i.e. the velocity of light is constant is all frames of reference, then it follows that Einstein's second postulate, "light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body" has been shown to be invalid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is how Einstein derived the cuckoo transformations. You are a smart guy, you can read. Create Bambi II from this:
The light leaves the caboose and arrives at the engine, then reflects back to the caboose. Let the light leave the engine, reflect at the caboose and return to the engine.
The diagram is like this (fixed font needed).
| C' | / | B / | ____________Mirror | /\ / | / \ / C / \ /
|\ / \ / | \ / \A' [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | / D | |/ / ____________|____|________________ A D B A' C'
[quote] we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to [A']. [end quote] Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
We establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from C to D equals the "time" it requires to travel from D to C'.
Distance between mirrors is x'
Einstein's equation:
½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v))
What it means in the diagram:
½[tau(A,t)+tau(A',t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(B,t+x'/(c-v)) ½[tau(C,t)+tau(C',t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(D,t+x'/(c PLUS v))
So the time at B, the engine, equals the time at D, the caboose, but it doesn't.
For the full text, you can check it out: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
Incidentally, if you wrap that diagram into a circle, connecting engine to caboose, you have Sagnac. Einstein was aware of Sagnac in 1913.
This is what Newton would say if he were alive today: The most recent accusations of forgery made against Ptolemy came from Newton in [12]. He begins this book by stating clearly his views:-
This is the story of a scientific crime. ... I mean a crime committed by a scientist against fellow scientists and scholars, a betrayal of the ethics and integrity of his profession that has forever deprived mankind of fundamental information about an important area of astronomy and history.
Towards the end Newton, having claimed to prove every observation claimed by Ptolemy in the Almagest was fabricated, writes [12]:-
[Ptolemy] developed certain astronomical theories and discovered that they were not consistent with observation. Instead of abandoning the theories, he deliberately fabricated observations from the theories so that he could claim that the observations prove the validity of his theories. In every scientific or scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it is a crime against science and scholarship. http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Ptolemy.html
The most recent accusations of forgery made against Einstein came from Androcles right now. He begins this accusation by stating clearly his views:-
This is the story of a scientific crime. ... I mean a crime committed by a scientist against fellow scientists and scholars, a betrayal of the ethics and integrity of his profession that has forever deprived mankind of fundamental information about an important area of astronomy and history.
Towards the end Androcles, having claimed to prove every observation claimed by Einstein in the theory of relativity was fabricated, writes:-
Einstein developed certain astronomical theories and discovered that they were not consistent with observation. Instead of abandoning the theories, he deliberately fabricated observations from the theories so that he could claim that the observations prove the validity of his theories. In every scientific or scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it is a crime against science and scholarship.
I say the same of Tom Roberts.
"Yes, tests of strong fields are few and far between, but there are some: the binary pulsars, and observations of accretion disks near black holes -- Hallucinatory Roberts, fabricator of observation.
Androcles, friend of the lion, Newton
Dirk Van de moortel - 16 Nov 2005 21:15 GMT > >> Don't you mean the Einstein cuckoo transformation that you cannot > >> derive? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > In his booklet, "The Relativity Explosion", Martin Gardner writes > (concerning two spacecraft passing each other). First occurence in July 2001 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author%3Aandrocles%20booklet%20martin%20gardner
Dirk Vdm
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 14:52 GMT > > That, I could live with. To me, an original finite volume for where > > the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What was your point? Basically what you just said. The ptolemaic system, if I understand, treats the earth as a stationary reference frame and predicts the positions of stars and planets in the sky from that reference frame. As such, it has strange phenomena such as retrograde orbit and a sun and terra-firma that rotate and orbit around the earth. It's all consistent with observation to a point... If you tried to imagine things from the perspective of a moon of Jupiter, you wouldn't be able to do it easily, with this system. The ptolemaic system was eventually given up after someone (I believe Galileo (?)) found a simpler model which was consistent with observations.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 21:33 GMT >> > That, I could live with. To me, an original finite volume for where >> > the matter came from doesn't seem inconsistent with our observations. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > given up after someone (I believe Galileo (?)) found a simpler model > which was consistent with observations. Copernicus. Galileo confirmed it. Kepler measured it, discovered Copernicus was off, the orbits were elliptical, not circles, Newton confirmed Kepler, science was under weigh. Newton fell back on William of Ockham. Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate or Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler. Newton said: RULES OF REASONING IN PHILOSOPHY. RULE I. We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.
To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain, and more is in vain when less will serve; for Nature is pleased with simplicity, and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes.
Einstein overstepped Ockham. "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler"
When asked if New York stops at this train, Galileo said "Yes". Einstein said "As has already been shown to the first order of small quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good. We will raise this conjecture (the purport of which will hereafter be called the ``Principle of Relativity'') to the status of a postulate ". I want to say "Does New York stop at this friggin' train or not, idiot?" Damn pompous twit, claiming responsibility for Galileo's postulate and saying it isn't quite right.
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." --Albert Einstein
The secret to arrogance is never quoting anyone else. Creativity my arse. He got his ideas about time from reading H.G. Wells' "Time Machine", a best seller when he was a teenager, and from Swiss cuckoo clocks as a patent office clerk.
Who gave him permission to define time anyway?
HUCKSTER! Criminal! Should have been hung, drawn and quartered. Androcles.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:00 GMT > > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you > > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center. > > > > I kind of like the singularity idea. > > Ah.... you LIKE it. That means it must be so. No, really it doesn't
> No arguing with faith... > > Androcles. Actually, there's plenty of arguing with faith. That's what most arguments are about! In fact, that's the entire point of an argument. One person believes one thing and another believes another. But I know you Androcles. You are not one to stay in an argument with somebody who believes what they are saying and can support it. So you might as well leave now if your not arguing.
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:50 GMT > > > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you > > > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > who believes what they are saying and can support it. So you might as > well leave now if your not arguing. I take that back if I can. Actually, I should recognize and appreciate your input. You are a regular here and keep the threads alive with your alternating inconsistent arguments. And if you hadn't responded, I wouldn't have anybody to defend my ideas to. Because of your faith, I'll never be able to convince you of anything, but you still might encourage me to come up with incontrovertible points which might convince others who are not so invested in contrariness.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 22:17 GMT >> > > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you >> > > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > encourage me to come up with incontrovertible points which might > convince others who are not so invested in contrariness. Sure... but you are wielding a two-edged sword. Be careful not to cut yourself. Above all, don't get overconfident the way Phuckwit Duck did. I have a LOT of experience. Teach me something new.
>> Draper: >> I have to admit that I am demoralized at the moment. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> Google remembers it very well. >> Androcles. I've since given Phuckwit Duck a hounding. I'm not done yet. It's when I choose.
I know I'm crass, vitriolic, not well liked. Those things don't matter to me. I am honest though. Only today I was caught out. I said: ----------------------------------
>> Looks like your 4.125 isn't quite right. Maybe that's the problem. > > Nope you made an error. Yep... My apologies. I realised it right after I posted, so I'll have to eat it. I 'fess up, I made a boo-boo.My granddaughter called as I was about to re-read what I'd written, so I posted in haste.
The equation is ..
> 6 * 10/(10+22) = 4.125 Of course. I didn't engage brain before opening my big mouth, so call me an idiot (this time). :-) -------------------------------------
Do that and there is no reply the OP can make that can lead to vitriol or bitterness. Stick to your guns when you know you are right, admit to yourself you can be wrong. I won't lie to myself. I can be wrong. The man who never made a mistake never made anything. A smart young fella like yourself can learn, and I'd be delighted if you did. You obviously have some talent, you don't have to rely on ego to get your message over. You are confident, which is good, polite too, which is good, and you'll find I'm not unkindly, even if terse. The rules of the game are evidence and logic. I wish you every success!
With regards, Androcles.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 21:38 GMT >> > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you >> > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > who believes what they are saying and can support it. So you might as > well leave now if your not arguing. You don't know me at all. I'll argue up until you fall back on assertion. Isaac Asimov wrote in "Quasar, Quasar, Burning Bright" , ISBN 0-380-44610-3 (concerning life after death) "If you want to argue the point, present the evidence. I must warn you, though, that there are some arguments I will not accept. I won't accept any argument from authority. ("The Bible says so") I won't accept any argument from internal conviction ("I have faith it is so") I won't accept any argument from personal abuse ("What are you, an atheist?") I won't accept any argument from irrelevance ("Do you think you have been put on this Earth just to exist for a moment of time?) I won't accept any argument from anecdote ("My cousin has a friend who went to a medium and talked to her dead husband") And when all that, and other varieties of non-evidence are eliminated, there turns out to be nothing."
Present the evidence.
Androcles.
Dirk Van de moortel - 16 Nov 2005 22:12 GMT > >> > If the universe started at a point, on the other hand, then you > >> > wouldn't have this feature of a definite center. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > And when all that, and other varieties of non-evidence are eliminated, there > turns out to be nothing." Androcles' arguments: http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndArg.html
Dirk Vdm
Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:31 GMT > > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles > > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding, > > at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the > > SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe. > > Give me the right ascension and declination to the centre, please. See above for my error. There is no reference frame where this sphere would be the smallest.
You can always find a reference frame where an expanding finite volume in Euclidian space contracts to a a single event (a single point in space-time). I would be happy to help anybody that wants to do a thesis on this to generate a proof.
But you are asking for where the center is, from our reference frame? (Approximately) 11h09m Right Ascension, -7deg declination This is not the literal center of the universe, you understand, but the center of the expanding sphere from this frame. More information on where this answer comes from can be found here:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/0f134b46 ee86d1c7/2074e776c19a7494#2074e776c19a7494
Thank you for asking!
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 23:05 GMT >> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles >> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > See above for my error. There is no reference frame where this sphere > would be the smallest. Ok...
> You can always find a reference frame where an expanding finite volume > in Euclidian space contracts to a a single event (a single point in > space-time). I would be happy to help anybody that wants to do a > thesis on this to generate a proof. I'm way past writing theses. These days I let younger people make either a name for or a fool of themselves.
> But you are asking for where the center is, from our reference frame? > (Approximately) 11h09m Right Ascension, -7deg declination This is not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thank you for asking! http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050508.html The map indicates that the Local Group moves at about 600 kilometers per second relative to this primordial radiation. This high speed was initially unexpected and its magnitude is still unexplained. http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~mab/education/astro103/lectures/l24/ap030212.html Credit: WMAP Science Team, NASA. Explanation: Analyses of a new high-resolution map of microwave light emitted only 380000 years after the Big Bang
http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/hubble.html Trained initially as a lawyer, Edwin Hubble moved to astronomy in 1914, working at the famous Yerkes Observatory near Chicago.
I'm glad you are doing better than NASA or a trained lawyer.
Androcles.
Spoonfed - 18 Nov 2005 05:12 GMT > >> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles > >> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by finding, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > high-resolution > map of microwave light emitted only 380000 years after the Big Bang The 600 km/second figure comes from a low velocity approximation, and makes the assumption that the light comes from the local vacuum of space. Whoever first did the calculation was wrong, and it is unfortunate that it keeps getting propogated. In the same articles, you will often find, in the same articles or presentations as this unchecked 600 km/sec figure arguments that the redshift of the outer edge of the visible universe is around 1000. This figure is accurate, and it should be used to calculate the approximate velocity of the source of the primordial radiation we are currently seeing.
Unfortunately, we don't currently have the experimental apparatus to get a camera that can detect 2.7 K light up to 600 km/second so we could check that indeed, the dipole does not disappear.
> http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/hubble.html > Trained initially as a lawyer, Edwin Hubble moved to astronomy in 1914, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Androcles. Black Knight - 18 Nov 2005 09:49 GMT >> >> > The curious thing is that at that particular moment, all particles >> >> > within would observe the sphere to be a different size, and by [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > get a camera that can detect 2.7 K light up to 600 km/second so we > could check that indeed, the dipole does not disappear. YAWNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnn..................
Androc........zzzzzzzzzzzzz
>> http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/hubble.html >> Trained initially as a lawyer, Edwin Hubble moved to astronomy in 1914, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Androcles. Spoonfed - 16 Nov 2005 15:18 GMT > > I have seen a lot of small bangs. (SB) > > None start with anything approaching a singularity. There are ~100b [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > at that particular moment, the reference frame where the sphere was the > SMALLEST, you would be able to establish a center of the universe. I erred here. If you choose a particle which is moving toward the center and switch to its reference frame, the sphere would appear larger at that moment in that particle's frame. If you choose a particle which is moving away from the center and switch to its reference frame, the universe would be smaller.
Since presumably, out at the very edge of the universe, there would be particles traveling outward at velocities arbitrarily close to the speed of light, there would be particles from whose reference frame, the universe would appear to be arbitrarily small.
Now if the universe can appear arbitrarily small from the perspective of one particle, then it should also appear arbitrarily small to every other particle. So, not only do I LIKE the idea of the universe starting out at a single point, it is the ONLY possibility if the universe started out with a finite spherical volume.
On the other hand, if the universe started out with an infinite Euclidian volume, with homogeneously distributed matter, we should be continually smacked with matter from nether regions of the universe.
-OR- there would be galaxies hanging stationary in the sky. If this were the case, I wouldn't think they should be redshifted to varying degrees depending on their distance. Either way an infinite homogeneous universe (in Euclidian space) is inconsistent with our observations.
Black Knight - 16 Nov 2005 22:52 GMT >> > I have seen a lot of small bangs. (SB) >> > None start with anything approaching a singularity. There are ~100b [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Euclidian volume, with homogeneously distributed matter, we should be > continually smacked with matter from nether regions of the universe. I don't follow that. Why would we be continually smacking the nether regions with our matter? And if we don't, why should the nether regions do it to us?
> -OR- there would be galaxies hanging stationary in the sky. Yeah... so?
> If this > were the case, I wouldn't think they should be redshifted to varying > degrees depending on their distance. Oh, I do. That's consistent with a shell of finite energy spread over an enormous sphere of which we are at the surface and E = h.nu (Planck)
> Either way an infinite > homogeneous universe (in Euclidian space) is inconsistent with our > observations. It is? You should tell that to Max Planck. I don't suppose Erwin Hubble paid him much attention... different fields of study, Astronomy and QM.
Androcles.
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 16 Nov 2005 03:56 GMT Dear Daniel Weston:
>I have seen a lot of small bangs. (SB) > None start with anything approaching a singularity. There > are ~100b galaxies with each containing ~100b suns. And > we are told that modern science says that all that matter > and energy came from something infinitely smaller than a > pin head. We are not told that. Current theory hints at "the size of a grapefruit".
> That doesn't set well with me at > all. Good, because it is not true.
> I have taken the BBT and just put it on the shelf. ... but will whine about it? What kind of "on the shelf" is that? The one where the targets are stored?
> I am suspending > final judgement until we have more knowledge as to > what is happening and what are the causalities. "Final judgement" implies we will have infinite knowledge. This is not likely in your lifetime. If you don't like it, come up with other option(s) that fit the facts.
> A lot of professional scientists have noted that the BBT is > requiring an increasing number of epicycles. Citations for "a lot"? This is on the order of "several", so 5 or 6 should be sufficient... I wonder how they end up with so little iron in this Universe with an "increasing number of epicycles".
> I have well braced myself for any > ensuing scorn and ridicule from the defenders of the faith. Too bad science isn't a religion. But I don't expect you to acknowledge the difference. Since you have now announced that you are going back to pre-Greek (?) cosmology...
Of course, you are only looking for a fight...
David A. Smith
Thomas Heger - 16 Nov 2005 10:01 GMT I guess, the sigularity is void, since it takes energy to curve the space and the energie in all matter in space is nessesary to fold the universe back to the size of a pinhead That it takes energie to curve space is easy to prove: just lift the monitor that you are looking at
TH
> Good, because it is not true. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > David A. Smith ratcliff@iafrica.com - 18 Nov 2005 20:15 GMT Firstly thankyou for you interset in the conference and what it stood for. I am the author of the report posted here. It seems that Spoonfed is playing with the name "Big Bang" It is the name of a cosmological theory devloped by Georges le Maitre and formalised by George Gamow and his assistants. It is based upon the mathematics of General Relativity as solved by Alexandre Friedmann. hence I write it with capital letters. It does not refer to some or other large explosion; in the sense that I have used it, it refers specifically to the theory described above. Therefore, Big Bang theory 1 is constrained by 4-D Minkowski space 2 is based upon General Relativity 3 operates according to the Friedmann model 4 requires a systematically expanding universe 5 depends on the validity of the Cosmological Principle.
Now, to address your questions: "Why is there no model of Big Bang in Euclidean space?" The authors of the theory chose to base it on Minkowski space. Several attempts have been made to accommodate it in Euclidean space (see Almeida) but none has been successful as far as I know. "Why should the big bang be isotropic and homogeneous?" Is the change to lower case intentional? The Friedmann solutions are for an isotropic and homogeneous universe. Professor Yurij Baryshev 9in my report) put it most succinctly: The Friedmann model does not allow large-scale structure, yet observation shows it for as far as we can see. "The galaxies are moving away from us..." I don't agree. Hubble, without much confidence, ascribed his percieved redshift to the Doppler effect. We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point. "If you want to launch into a 'no big bang' argument, attack the basics, not the hocus pocus..." What on Earth are you on about? Expanding space and the Cosmological Principle are the fundamental tenets upon which the authors of Big Bang based their theory. Surely you concede then that I am indeed attacking the basics? Notwithstanding our differences of opinion, I do appreciate your critical thinking.
With best regards, Hilton Ratcliffe
> > Non-expanding universe > > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > not the hocus pocus about expanding space and homogeneity at an > arbitrarily large scale. Joe Fischer - 18 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT >Firstly thankyou for you interset in the conference and what it stood >for. I am the author of the report posted here. And you think the sun is a sphere of iron with a 400 thousand mile radius. What is the average density and the mass of that?
Joe Fischer
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 19 Nov 2005 06:53 GMT Dear Joe, Thank you for your interst in the Iron Sun hypothesis. I'm intrigued by how you could reach that conclusion based on what I had written in the conference report, but nevertheless, you are right in assuming that I now accept Professor Manuel's thesis on the iron Sun (despite the initial incredulous response I displayed to his abstract!) In fact, he, Michael Mozina, and I have now co-authored several related papers on the subject (refer arXiv) and have submitted a joint contribution the the "Hirschegg '06" workshop on nuclear astrophysics to be held in Austria in January. The extensive measurements of isotopes on the Earth, in meteorites, in solar wind, and in Moon rock produce results that are quite clear - the Solar System resulted from a local iron-rich SN about 5 Gy ago, and sorted itself generally by mass with a heavy-element core (the Sun). Refer to Michael Mozina's site (link on this page) and to Oliver Manuel's web page (link from Mozina). This model does not change the measurement of the Sun's mass - 10 to power 33.3 g - so average density remains also the same. There is no contradiction in this because of the complex variables affecting stellar densities. Regards, Hilton
Joe Fischer - 19 Nov 2005 19:28 GMT >Dear Joe, >Thank you for your interst in the Iron Sun hypothesis. I'm intrigued by [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the "Hirschegg '06" workshop on nuclear astrophysics to be held in >Austria in January. Did somebody forget to take chemistry in high school?
Wouldn't there be the same number of molecules/atoms in the same volume, pressure and temperature, and doesn't iron have a molecular weight many times that of hydrogen?
>The extensive measurements of isotopes on the Earth, in meteorites, in >solar wind, and in Moon rock produce results that are quite clear - the >Solar System resulted from a local iron-rich SN about 5 Gy ago, and >sorted itself generally by mass with a heavy-element core (the Sun). >Refer to Michael Mozina's site (link on this page) and to Oliver >Manuel's web page (link from Mozina). What, asteroids are nickel-iron, so the sun must be also?
And most of the fusion in the sun is very deep, with a large iron core there may not be enough pressure higher up to sustain fusion.
>This model does not change the measurement of the Sun's mass - 10 to >power 33.3 g - so average density remains also the same. There is no >contradiction in this because of the complex variables affecting >stellar densities. >Regards, Hilton I think it would substantially change the sun's mass, it's radius, and it's energy output.
I am sorry to say your idea is about as absurd as posted here, only exceeded in absurdity by the Electrodynamic Divergence of Matter model.
Joe Fischer
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 20 Nov 2005 05:46 GMT Dear Joe,
Thanks for your comments. Many think that the Sun's density means that it must be hydrogen, but that isn't true. The average density is just the total mass divided by the total volume. The Sun's mass was not derived from density, temperature, and pressure measurements for its perceived chemical composition; like all other bodies in our Solar System, mass is determined using Kepler/Newton laws of motion.
To find chemical composition you must also know: a.) the internal structure, b.) the number of atoms, and/or c.) the temperature profile (Remember the Sun is huge; the structure and the temperature may not be uniform throughout).
For example, a.) What is the average density of the solar system? The answer is meaningless without knowing variations in structure and composition. b.) How many atoms are in the Sun? The answer depends on its chemical composition. c.) What is the average density of a balloon filled with helium? The answer depends on the temperature.
Here are a few papers from the literature that illustrate these points:
1. Fred Hoyle published a paper in the Astrophysics Journal 197, L127-L131 (1975) suggesting that the Sun has a core with a high concentration of iron-group metals. 2. Donald Clayton, Michael Newman, and Raymond Talbot published a paper in the Astrophysics Journal 201, 489-493 (1975) suggesting that the Sun has a black hole at its core. 3. Peter Toth published a paper in Nature 270, 159-160 (1977) suggesting that the Sun's oscillations mean it is a pulsar.
These scientists, the reviewers, and editors all knew the average density of the Sun. They also knew that the Sun's average density does not rule out an iron-rich solar core, a central black hole, or a pulsating neutron star!
Absurd? To suggest that a system could form by gravitational aggregation and have the very lightest element in existence - hydrogen - settle to form the core while the heavier elements spin out towards the periphery is absurd. The Earth does not have an iron mantle with the atmosphere inside. Why? Because gravitation doesn't work like that, that's why.
Finally, many of your eroneous conclusions are based on the prior assumption that the Sun's energy is derived from nuclear fusion at the core. It isn't, but that is something you could find out for yourself by following the links I suggested.
Regards, Hilton
dwhig265@aol.com - 18 Nov 2005 22:47 GMT ." We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point."
Dear Mr. Ratcliffe, I appreciate your stance above, as I am a dissident amateur, but how do you account for the rise time of the light curves of highly red shifted Ia supernovae? Arp completely ignored it in "Seeing Red" Regards, Dwain W. Higginbotham
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 19 Nov 2005 06:28 GMT > ." We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van > Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Arp completely ignored it in "Seeing Red" Regards, Dwain W. > Higginbotham Dear Dwain, Thank you for your courteous query. I have not studied that specific SNe light curve data, and am therefore not quite sure that I understand what the problem is. If you could give me a bit more detail and possibly some references, and I'll see I can help you or refer you to someone who can. The proceedings have not yet been published by AIP (due out December), but when they are, I'm sure you would find the papers "Falsification of the Expanding Universe Model" and "Derivation of the Hubble Redshift and the Metric in a Static Universe" by Tom Andrews (referred to in my report) of great interest. You could contact him directly at tba@xoba.com. He's an affable, friendly guy who applies a systematic engineering approach to problems in physics. Regards, Hilton
dwhig265@aol.com - 19 Nov 2005 20:34 GMT > ." We are now certain that it is not. See Halton Arp and Tom van > Flandern for sensible empirical arguments on this point."
> Dear Mr. Ratcliffe, > I appreciate your stance above, as I am a dissident amateur, but how > do you account for the rise time of the light curves of highly red > shifted Ia supernovae? > Arp completely ignored it in "Seeing Red" Regards, Dwain W. > Higginbotham Dear Dwain, Thank you for your courteous query. I have not studied that specific SNe light curve data, and am therefore not quite sure that I understand
what the problem is.
Dear Dr. Ratcliffe, The opening line I quoted "We are now certain that it is not" in total context was that you were now certain that the universe was not expanding. For you to make this statement and not know what I'm talking about regarding IaSne light curve rise time observations seems incredible. Said observations prove conclusively that the universe is expanding, and elsewhere in this thread I have offered $100,000 to the first person that can disprove a theory I have that depends on said expansion. I was pretty excited when Marcel opened this thread but its beginning to sound like Androclese, Retic, etal are involved! Good luck anyway and you'll be hearing from me further as you get organized. Sincerely D.W.H.
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 19 Nov 2005 21:36 GMT Dear Dwain,
Your response makes it a little more clear. Perhaps I am remiss in not having followed this thread from the beginning (I discovered only yesterday by accident that my report was being discussed here) and so I am not in the picture historically. I do know what SNe light curve rise times are (I am an astronomer) but don't understand what the the problem is because they most certainly do not "prove conclusively thet the universe is expanding". However, I respect your point of view, and accept that it is a reasoned one. State your case, with supporting data, and, if you like, we can discuss it. If you would rather not, that's your call. I would suggest that in preference to offering $100K for the falsification of your theory, you would serve yourself better by writing a properly formulated paper on it and getting it through peer review with a mainstream journal. It's a sticky process, full of iniquities, but getting your ideas onto arXiv would expose them to wide review, and the simple fact of the matter is that ideas then get taken more seriously (and I'm sure you want your theory to be taken seriously). Good luck to you too. Regards, Hilton
dwhig265@aol.com - 23 Nov 2005 17:17 GMT 40. ratcl...@iafrica.com Nov 19, 4:36 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity From: ratcl...@iafrica.com - Find messages by this author Date: 19 Nov 2005 13:36:13 -0800 Local: Sat, Nov 19 2005 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Non-expanding universe Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Dear Dwain, Your response makes it a little more clear. Perhaps I am remiss in not having followed this thread from the beginning (I discovered only yesterday by accident that my report was being discussed here) and so I
am not in the picture historically. I do know what SNe light curve rise
times are (I am an astronomer) but don't understand what the the problem is because they most certainly do not "prove conclusively thet the universe is expanding". However, I respect your point of view, and accept that it is a reasoned one. State your case, with supporting data, and, if you like, we can discuss it. If you would rather not, that's your call. Regards, Hilton
Dear Hilton, I would like very much to discuss the IaSne light curve rise times with you. I'm not sure I have any supporting data as most of what I think I know has come from internet discussions with people I had reason to believe, knew what they were talking about. I am suspending my $100k offer pending the outcome of our discussion. My understanding is that IaSne are the best candles ever discovered because they can be readily identified and all blow up in largely the same fasion. In a non redshifted environment (in our "local group), their light curve rise time to maximum brightness from the moment of explosion is 21 days. I have been assured by Ned Wright that z numbers are percentages of the speed of light at least up to z = 1.5. Using the formula given to me by Nick Suntzef of one of the high z supernova red shift teams----(z + 1) x 21 = rise time in days---- gives a rise time at z = 1.5 of 52.5 days. This IaSn has a rise time in its own galaxy of 21 days but because it is hurtling away from us at one and one half times the speed of light, it takes 52.5 days to reach maximum brightness from the viewpoint of an Earthbound observer. By extrapolation, a IaSn at the limit of our telescopes travelling at z = 14.0 would reach maximum brightness in 315 days. These observations conclusively prove to me that the Universe is expanding. Regards, Dwain W. Higginbotham
ratcliff@iafrica.com - 26 Nov 2005 17:30 GMT > Dear Hilton, > I would like very much to discuss the IaSne light curve rise times [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that the Universe is expanding. > Regards, Dwain W. Higginbotham Dear Dwain,
Thank you your reply. Whatever you do, don't take my word for anything. Apply your mind to the evidence (much of which you are going to have to dig up for yourself) and follow wherever it leads. I'm pleased to see that you have been in contact with Ned Wright. He is an arch evangelist for Big Bang theory, and in Ned you have someone well qualified to argue the orthodox view. If you have visited his site, you no doubt came across his critique of Eric Lerner's book "The Big Bang Never Happened." To balance that picture, it would be useful for you to read also Eric's rebuttal: "Dr Wright is Wrong" http://bigbangneverhappened.org/ . The issue here as I understand it is whether or not the universe is undergoing systematic expansion, and whether or not SNe rise times support that contention. We need to check theoretical viability, accuracy and representivity of observational data samples, correctness of interpretation, and any occurrence of ambiguity in the results. It's important to point out at the outset that I have no interest in fancy theories existing in conceptual isolation; our enquiry should be aimed at deriving an explanation for what happens in the real world, and that immediately requires that we accept the existence of such a thing as substantial reality independent of observation. The stars and galaxies that we are about to discuss are real things, not ideas or models. Do we have common ground? "In principle, the expansion history of the cosmos can be determined quite easily, using as a 'standard candle' any distinguishable class of astronomical objects of known intrinsic brightness that can be identified over a wide distance range...[light travel time] can be determined by comparing its apparent brightness to a nearby standard of the same class of astrophysical objects." (Saul Perlmutter, Physics Today April 2003, p53). Note that Perlmutter starts with expansion as a given. This is a problem of approach that is pervasive in science and acts to the detriment of realistic, objective interpretation of observational data. The compelling elegance of Tom Andrews' approach (Falsification of the Expanding Universe Model and Derivation of the Hubble Redshift and the Metric in a Static Universe, AIP: Proceedings of the First Crisis in Cosmology Conference, ibid) is that he invokes another class of standard candle, namely brightest cluster galaxies, and compares the light signatures with contemporary 1a SNe. If the anomalous dimming is caused by Big Bang's postulated expanding space, then the effect should be seen in the light curves of all standard candles, not just 1a SNe. Right? Using two independent sets of data for expansion with a third set (compiled by Goldhaber) as a basis for examining time dilation, Andrews shows that the broadening effects in galaxy light is consistent with neither the expanding universe model nor the notion of time dilation, and in fact directly supports a static (non-expanding) universe model. Unfortunately, Tom Andrews has not yet completed compiling pdf files of his papers, but you could contact him at tba@xoba.com if you have questions. We will have to wait until the proceedings are published to obtain copies of his papers so that you can study them and draw your own conclusions. If I can get electronic copies, I will forward them to you. Another paper I would recommend is "Evidence for a Non-Expanding Universe: Surface Brightness Data from HUDF", which was presented at CCC-1 by Eric Lerner (http://bigbangneverhappened.org/). In it, Lerner tests Hubble Ultra Deep Field (HUDF) data against the Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW) metric. His conclusions do not favour FRW cosmology, and need to be considered by anyone seriously investigating the origins and destiny of the Universe. As a matter of interest, this paper became a rallying cry for the Alternative Cosmology Group because the anonymous reviewers censoring arXiv at first arbitrarily rejected it. Eric had to apply a great deal of pressure to get it published, and his success here marked a watershed in the fight to get alternative views published alongside the orthodoxy. An excellent summary of the principles of SNe light broadening and rise times is contained in Tom van Flandern's article "Do Supernovas Prove an Expanding Universe?" (Meta Research Bulletin June 15, 2004). Quote: "There is no such thing as a standard single supernova (SN) lightcurve. SN of Type 1a are standard candles only in the sense that their intrinsic maxima are limited to a range of a couple of magnitudes, but this still covers a variety of light curve widths. More importantly, there is no correlation between lightcurve width and redshift beyond that expected from Malmquist bias (the tendency to see only the brightest objects in any class at the greatest distances). The correlation you speak of appears only when brightness is inferred using assumptions about the redshift-distance relation. In fact, it is precisely because the supernovae do not follow the expected behaviour that forces BB proponents to infer that the universe's expansion is now accelerating." Read the discussion for yourself at http://metaresearch.org/msgboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=517 and also TOPIC_ID=526. While you are there, take a look also at "Did the Universe Have a Beginning?" It examines 7 standard tests for expansion and the fit of their results in both expanding and static models. Finally (for now, more to follow if you want), read Jerry W. Jensen's "Supernovae Light Curves: An Argument for a New Distance Modulus" at http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0404/0404207.pdf . Please pay particular attention to the section starting at the bottom of page 6, "Supernova 1a Rise Times", and the part around figures 6 - 8 preceding it. Jensen's compelling argument shows that the SNe data contain no evidence of time dilation. This is crucial, because if Ia SNe have no time dilation, that removes the implication that they moving away from us, and we may therefore with confidence deduce that the universe is not expanding. Quote (referring to Arp's abundant evidence of AGN - QSO links): "That astronomers continue to doubt these convincing visual and tomographic radio images is one of the perplexing consequences of the power of preconceptions on the interpretive functions of the human mind." You will readily appreciate that since Big Bang, with all its nuances, was derived originally from General Relativity, which in turn is a superset of Special Relativity, the magnitude of the can of worms being opened by our challenge is daunting to say the least. The way to proceed is simply to take it one step at a time and carefully note the outcome each time, much as one would do in tackling a complex differential equation term by term. At the cost of repeating myself, a clear example is that given by Yurij Baryshev - the Friedmann model does not permit large-scale structure, yet that is precisely we see for as far as our instruments can take us. Now we ask ourselves, which do we believe, the underlying mathematical constraint, or the observations obtained from every side? Regards, Hilton
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 27 Nov 2005 22:37 GMT > > Dear Hilton, > > I would like very much to discuss the IaSne light curve rise times [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] > Regards, > Hilton Dear Hilton,
You rightly wrote:
> the Friedmann model > does not permit large-scale structure, yet that is precisely we see for > as far as our instruments can take us. Now we ask ourselves, which do > we believe, the underlying mathematical constraint, or the observations > obtained from every side? The main problem is to find the best way to get rid of the current paradigm, because all the observations we get day after day are simply discarded by the ""mainstreamers", who try to keep the money they enjoy in their sinecure. Imo, the only way is propaganda, which is the reason why I put the reference "Bigbang epicycles" in my home page http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mluttgens/Big%20Bang%20epicycles.htm . Accept it or not, I don't find another way.
Marcel
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