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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / December 2005



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The Inside Out Universe.

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Max Keon - 26 Dec 2005 23:52 GMT
 My previous attempt at this was fairly ordinary.

--------
The Inside Out Universe.

Whatever our circumstances of existence, right here is where we are
compelled to perceive the universe. We can do absolutely nothing to
change that. We can only theorize and observe until a theory comes
along that predicts why the universe behaves in the way it does. But
that's the best we can possibly do.

Light invariably moves at some speed relative to matter, and as a
consequence, matter invariably moves at some speed relative to
light. That still holds even for relativistic matter velocities
(relativistic relative to a local and very much larger mass that
is). It's impossible for light and matter to ever be stationary
relative to each other. **They do not and cannot ever exist in the
same realm.** Directly comparing time-distance in the realm of light
using measurements taken in the realm of matter is illogical. Matter
exists only in the present, while light travels only in the past and
future. The past and future coincide with the present when E/M
radiation intersects with matter. **And that's the only time.**

Picturing the divergence of a light beam as a maze of point
particles that in themselves don't diverge, makes it impossible to
understand why light should behave differently to matter.
http://www.optusnet.com.au/~maxkeon/planck.html

If a ring laser gyro could be constructed to encircle the earth
around the equator the standing waves around the ring would be
moving west at 465m/sec relative to any fixed point on the equator,
on average for each sidereal day. The only valid explanation for
this phenomena is that the speed of light pointing east is
2*465m/sec slower than it is pointing west. The average east-west
speed of light for anything fixed to the equator is then 465m/sec
slower than in the ECI frame. An anisotropy in the one way speed
of light must then exist around anything fixed to the earth's
surface.

Speed of Light Anisotropy Proven Beyond Doubt; is the proof.
http://www.optusnet.com.au/~maxkeon/fizza.html

Simple geometry demonstrates that the round trip time for an E/M
wave front traveling back and forth between two mirrors in an
east-west orientation alters at the rate of  t' = t/(1-v^2/c^2).

Each frame of the animation was extracted from the result of running
a Qbasic program which was designed to simulate two E/M wavefronts
that always move at a constant rate across the screen. The screen
represents the non rotating frame of the earth (ECI frame), which is
assumed to be the base on which light propagates. In the east-west
direction (right-left), E/M wavefronts are emitted simultaneously
in opposite directions from the center of the apparatus and are each
reflected from mirrors at each end which are equally spaced about
the center. In the animation, the apparatus is set to move relative
to the screen pixels at half the speed of the wavefronts, which is
equivalent to half the speed of light.

http://www.optusnet.com.au/~maxkeon/eastwest.gif

The Qbasic program can be found here
http://www.optusnet.com.au/~maxkeon/eastwest.exe
as a self extracting zip file. The animation generated by the
program is equivalent to many thousands of the above and it's
entirely interactive, even at the program level. The file should
be 7171 bytes after it's extracted. Qbasic is an amazing
communication tool.

The time for the journey increases with velocity of the apparatus
relative to the screen according to the measured round trip distance
in pixels for the moving apparatus, divided by the round trip
distance for the apparatus when its velocity is zero, relative to
the screen. The wavefront and the apparatus each measure the
distance in compounding steps, and the result is equivalent to using
the equation  t' = t/(1-v^2/c^2) (assuming that light propagates
on a base which is set by the ECI frame). A pure light clock would
function according to that equation. But that would not be the case
for a clock oscillator which includes matter in its tick function.
The two oscillators are certainly not the same.

In the real world, when the wavefront is moving in the same
direction as the motion of the beam source, because the rate of
divergence of the wavefront into the dual dimension around its
propagation path remains constant, and because the time taken to
cover the distance to the mirror has increased, the wavefront rate
of divergence relative to the source will have increased. When it's
moving in the opposite direction to the motion of the beam source
the rate of divergence will reduce by the same amount. Which isn't
going to affect anything in either direction because the propagation
path for the entire diverging beam is along the line of motion.

However, when the beam is pointed perpendicular to the direction of
motion, due to the beam's sideways motion relative to the base on
which light propagates, the time-distance between source and mirror
has increased, for the entire journey. The arm lengths of the
apparatus haven't changed, only the time to travel the distance has
changed, and as a consequence, so too has the beam divergence rate
relative to the source. As before, the beam diverges further into
the two planes perpendicular to the beam path as velocity of the
source increases. But the added divergence is now of some
consequence. The diverging beam is now shifting into two planes of
dimension that are perpendicular to the motion direction of the beam
source.

As the source velocity increases, both the length of the light path
and the beam width increase in exact proportions. That's a 2D change
rate. The path scribed by the beam enroute to the mirror, the
measured path length to the mirror, and the distance that the source
has traveled in the time, must each be squared before any valid
comparisons can be made. If c=1 and source velocity is .5c the leg
lengths of the right angle triangle are (C^2=A^2+B^2) = 1.25, 1, .25
And that's where the comparison stops. Taking the square root of any
of those measurements brings them back into the realm of matter, but
the comparison is no longer valid.

When matter enters the realm of light, the rules of the matter realm
no longer apply. Why on earth should they?

-----

Max Keon
Bill Hobba - 27 Dec 2005 05:16 GMT
>  My previous attempt at this was fairly ordinary.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> consequence, matter invariably moves at some speed relative to
> light.

Not quite.  Moving at some speed relative to something means we can attach a
coordinate system to it and measure your position relative to that
coordinate system.  You can not do that with light.

Bill

> That still holds even for relativistic matter velocities
> (relativistic relative to a local and very much larger mass that
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
>
> Max Keon
glucose - 27 Dec 2005 11:23 GMT
> >  My previous attempt at this was fairly ordinary.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bill

wrong

whay attaching heuristic bullshit from here to there you moron

how tha fok you attach somthin to stomthin else traveling as fast
as you cant even see it

whay not doing a simple parametrization then doing a line integral
along its path

have yo a phd like us every body else?

> > That still holds even for relativistic matter velocities
> > (relativistic relative to a local and very much larger mass that
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
> >
> > Max Keon
Bill Hobba - 27 Dec 2005 11:51 GMT
>> >  My previous attempt at this was fairly ordinary.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> have yo a phd like us every body else?

Thinking of your oral exam leaves me in stitches.  After impressing the
examiners with your wonderful command of the English language and winning
little terms of endearment like 'how tha fok' and 'you moron' you would
obviously be a cinch to pass.  But then again it does seem unlikely - to
even get that far you need to demonstrate basic writing skills, reasoning,
and creativity beyond thinking up different names to post your rot under so
people can't even killfile you.  In short you would need to be different
than the maladjusted computer nerd you obviously are.

Bill

>> > That still holds even for relativistic matter velocities
>> > (relativistic relative to a local and very much larger mass that
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
>> >
>> > Max Keon
donstockbauer@hotmail.com - 27 Dec 2005 12:12 GMT
You cannot attach a coordinate system to light??????
Bill Hobba - 27 Dec 2005 12:55 GMT
> You cannot attach a coordinate system to light??????

Of course not.  Particles are at rest in their own coordinate systems - by
the very definition of what a coordinate system defined by a particle is -
photons can never be at rest.

Bill
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 27 Dec 2005 13:00 GMT
Dear donstockbauer:

> You cannot attach a coordinate system to light??????

In addition to what Bill Hobba said...
- what finite length could you assign to objects?
- what finite energies could you assign to objects?

Really not much good such a "coordinate system" would do you.

David A. Smith
Tom Roberts - 27 Dec 2005 15:44 GMT
> You cannot attach a coordinate system to light??????

This depends in detail on what you mean.

Certainly there is no inertial coordinate system in which a light beam
is at rest.

If one expands the meaning of "coordinate system" to general coordinates
as in GR, one finds there are no orthogonal coordinate systems with axes
parallel to light beams. This is so because a 4-vector parallel to a
light beam has a norm of zero, and if the metric components were
orthogonal then the matrix of components would be degenerate, indicating
the coordinates are not valid (i.e. one is attempting to use <4 real
coordinates to cover a 4-d spacetime).

One can create coordinate systems with axes parallel to light beams, as
long as one uses _two_ such light beams in different directions, and
_two_ spacelike axes; there is no time coordinate in such a system, and
no timelike object can be at rest relative to it. Despite their unusual
character, such coordinate systems can be useful in GR.

Tom Roberts    tjroberts@lucent.com
Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de - 27 Dec 2005 22:45 GMT
> You cannot attach a coordinate system to light??????
In special theory light is propagating through vacuum with the constant
speed of light, with c, so one might choose one point of the front of a
light pulse moving away from it's source in a straight line as a
center, an origin of a coordinate system. One has even cartesian right
angles as the magnetic and the electric axes of an electromagnetic wave
are perpendicular to each other and to the direction of propagation.
One has also a measure, a yard-stick, in the form of one wavelength.
But, You see, in theory we need an observator in this coordinate
system. But in theory no observator can accelerate so much, that he
reaches the speed of light.
Some might know animismus. It's the belief, that every stone, every
...let's say hair-dryer, every ...and so forth has  a soul, an anima of
it's own.
In the same way every coordinate system has an observator, even better
a co-ordinator.
Think for Yourself: Without a co-ordinator, there is no coordination of
systems of reference (like a coordinate system is) to the theory. and
without the theory, what is left over? That must be the ultimative
horror of pure real everyday world, even existing, when no one is
looking.
Have fun
Hero
Max Keon - 29 Dec 2005 23:10 GMT
>>  My previous attempt at this was fairly ordinary.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> consequence, matter invariably moves at some speed relative to
>> light.

> Not quite.  Moving at some speed relative to something means we can
> attach a coordinate system to it and measure your position relative
> to that coordinate system.  You can not do that with light.

All light has an absolute frame from which it never strays and all
matter invariably moves at some speed relative to that frame. Light
doesn't need a coordinate system because it doesn't move anywhere
in its own realm, even though we see it going every which way. From
the viewpoint of anyone anywhere in the universe, light from the
entire universe is coming toward them, and the image of each person
is also going out to every part of the universe. It's hard to
picture a universal frame in that lot, but that's only because we
are compelled to comprehend the universe from the realm of matter.

Everything that has happened over an eternity in the realm of matter
has been an instantaneous event in the realm of light because light
is dumped onto a non existent plane from which matter and all of
its required parameters are drawn into existence (at the speed of
light), in an "every which way" action. Light is a recorded message
of an interaction between the components of matter that was
occurring in the present some time in the past and it remains
embedded in the past until it's played back in the realm of matter
when matter crosses its path, in much the same way as the story
etched onto a vinyl record is played back when the stylus comes
along and rattles over the wiggles of the recorded message. But in
this case, the wiggles can be completely removed in the process.
But the recording itself carries no energy whatever. In a sense it
doesn't exist. But it's now a real component in the structure of
the universe.

E/M radiation that has been ejected from a charge relationship has
permitted the charges to form a closer relationship. Until that
relationship is put back the way it was, the universe has evolved
just that little bit more. Until every bit of E/M radiation is
returned to achieve an absolute separation between every opposite
charge in the universe, the universe will continue to exist. If
just one "blip" remains recorded, a relationship between charges
still exists somewhere in the universe. The universe is certainly
in no danger of disappearing though. The opposite is very much the
case.

http://www.optusnet.com.au/~maxkeon/the1-1a.html  tells the rest
of the story. I can't blame you if you don't know what I'm talking
about, I have trouble with it myself even after 30 years. You should
try explaining it.

> That still holds even for relativistic matter velocities
> (relativistic relative to a local and very much larger mass that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> future. The past and future coincide with the present when E/M
> radiation intersects with matter. **And that's the only time.**

-----

Max Keon
 
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