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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / February 2006



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Life-lengthening worldlines inside a black hole

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sebire - 24 Feb 2006 18:19 GMT
If someone fell inside the event horizon of a black hole, if they
wanted to extend their life, would they need to travel along a
lightlike world line?

I'm looking at the Eddington-Finkelstein diagram and the Kruskal
diagram, and it seems like that makes sense unless I'm completely
misunderstanding them. If they travel along the middle of their light
cone, surely they will hit the singularity sooner?

The problem is that I keep hearing about the fact that if you fire your
rocket boosters in a bid to escape, you will just shorten the proper
time (which I don't get...), so how do you alter your world line to
follow a lightlike path?

Nat
sal - 24 Feb 2006 18:47 GMT
> If someone fell inside the event horizon of a black hole, if they wanted
> to extend their life, would they need to travel along a lightlike world
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> (which I don't get...), so how do you alter your world line to follow a
> lightlike path?

But suppose you could.  The proper distance from anyplace to anyplace
else along a light-light path is _zero_ -- time doesn't pass for a photon.
So, if you could follow a lightlight path, you'd hit the singularity
instantly (as you perceive "instantly").

Time is that which keeps everything from happening at once.  For a photon,
time doesn't pass, and everything _does_ happen at once.

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sebire - 24 Feb 2006 22:01 GMT
Aha, I think I get it now: geodesics maximise the proper time, so the
rocket just wants to follow a timelike geodesic if the pilot wants to
prolong the agony. Is that right?
sal - 25 Feb 2006 02:16 GMT
> Aha, I think I get it now: geodesics maximise the proper time, so the
> rocket just wants to follow a timelike geodesic if the pilot wants to
> prolong the agony. Is that right?

Sounds right to me.

I'm no expert on what goes on inside black holes, though.  Since that
part's not observable and it's rather different from everyplace else in
the universe I've got a sneaking suspicion the theory might not be exactly
bang-on in that area, and a much stronger suspicion that any naive attempt
to apply the standard solutions to an actual collapsed star is likely to
fall a bit short of what's really going on.

One simple but confusing question is, how does a black hole grow?
Viewed from the outside, it takes forever for infalling material to get
to the horizon, right?  But on the other hand there's no reason enough
infalling material couldn't result in the formation of another horizon
outside the first, in finite "external" time. But what happens next -- is
it meaningful to have nested horizons or does the inner horizon vanish at
that point?  If the latter, does the accumulated material "between" the
new and old horizons fall down into the singularity at that moment?  Is
that question even meaningful, since everything's now hidden in back of
the "outer" horizon?  I'm sure there are lots of people who know the
answers but I'm not one of them.

And of course Hawking's somewhat recent comments to the effect that, sure
'nuff, information theory says things can't all collapse into a
singularity after all, suggests that the simple model of a manifold with a
pinhole punched in it is really not right at all.

No matter how you slice it, though, saying you're falling into a black
hole is just another way to say you're falling into a star, and that's
never a good idea.

Whatever...

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Tom Roberts - 25 Feb 2006 03:27 GMT
>> Aha, I think I get it now: geodesics maximise the proper time, so the
>> rocket just wants to follow a timelike geodesic if the pilot wants to
>> prolong the agony. Is that right?

Yes. But note that while that clearly is valid for paths between a
specified pair of points in spacetime, the singularity is not a point in
spacetime. Indeed, for Schw. spacetime there are an infinite number of
limit points to which the rocket could travel (given it has sufficient
thrust capability), so it is not intuitively obvious which path
maximizes elapsed proper time. But one could guess there are only 3
likely candidates: on the light cone headed inward, on the light cone
headed outward, and the geodesic determined at the horizon; actual
computations show that indeed the geodesic path maximizes elapsed proper
time between horizon and the limit point of the singularity.

> I'm no expert on what goes on inside black holes, though.  Since that
> part's not observable and it's rather different from everyplace else in
> the universe I've got a sneaking suspicion the theory might not be exactly
> bang-on in that area, and a much stronger suspicion that any naive attempt
> to apply the standard solutions to an actual collapsed star is likely to
> fall a bit short of what's really going on.

Yes. Nobody seriously expects GR to remain valid in the neighborhood of
a singularity. Indeed, the notion "singularity" is usually thought to be
an artifact of GR and its classical roots.

> One simple but confusing question is, how does a black hole grow?

Short answer: at the speed of light. A longer answer is given below.

> Viewed from the outside, it takes forever for infalling material to get
> to the horizon, right?  But on the other hand there's no reason enough
> infalling material couldn't result in the formation of another horizon
> outside the first, in finite "external" time. But what happens next -- is
> it meaningful to have nested horizons or does the inner horizon vanish at
> that point?

There can be different types of horizons, but I'll just discuss the
usual one for Schw. spacetime, the event horizon. It is defined as the
limiting locus in 3-space from which a timelike object with arbitrarily
large acceleration cannot escape to spatial infinity. Relative to any
locally-inertial frame (which must necessarily be infalling), the
horizon always is moving at the speed of light. This is not limited to
Schw. spacetime, but for Schw. spacetime the horizon is stationary with
respect to a distant observer even though it is moving at c relative to
a local observer.  When something falls into the black hole, its horizon
expands with the local speed of light.

I can describe this in more detail for the specific case of a
spherically symmetric situation, using Birkhoff's theorem. Imagine a
spherically symmetric black hole with "mass" M, so initially its horizon
is at r=2M (I'll use Schw. coords. throughout). Consider a spherically
symmetric thin shell of mass m falling into the black hole from spatial
infinity. Once the shell is at or inside r=2(M+m), the horizon is at
r=2(M+m). Earlier, when the shell was far outside that value, the
horizon was approximately at r=2M. And as the shell approaches r=2(M+m)
from outside, the horizon expands from inside at the local speed of
light, meeting the shell precisely at r=2(M+m). An observer hovering
between r=2M and 2(M+m) would make local measurements consistent with a
black hole with horizon at r=2M until the shell passes her, at which
time she is inexorably pulled into the black hole. Note this observer
can still hover between the time the horizon passes her (headed outward)
and the time the shell passes her (headed inward); during this time she
could even head outward, but cannot possibly escape. Moreover, there is
no local experiment she could perform to learn of the horizon's approach
or passing -- the horizon is a global phenomenon with no definitive
local characteristics that are measurable (she could learn of the
shell's approach via normal means such as radar). For the diabolical
case of the shell being radiation, that intrepid observer cannot
possibly learn of the shell's approach until it reaches her, at which
time she is doomed.

Computing precisely how the horizon gets from r~2M to r=2(M+m) is
problematical because it depends on one's choice of time coordinate
(unlike Schw. spacetime there is no timelike Killing vector here).

Tom Roberts    tjroberts@lucent.com
sal - 26 Feb 2006 03:15 GMT
Thanks, Tom -- this is about as clear as a plain-English explanation of
such a phenomenon can get.

>>> Aha, I think I get it now: geodesics maximise the proper time, so the
>>> rocket just wants to follow a timelike geodesic if the pilot wants to
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>
> Tom Roberts    tjroberts@lucent.com

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G=EMC^2 Glazier - 27 Feb 2006 18:20 GMT
Sal  Best to keep in mind that every thing behind the event horizon of a
black hole is cut off from the rest of the universe. Reality is we just
completely ignore anything that is unfortunate enough to have fallen in.
Still when anything falls into a black hole,its wave function also gets
sucked in.  All this begs the questions    Is our universe's blue print
coded inside the black hole's core?   My theory is' black holes reach a
critical mass and in a great explosion give gravity the information as
to creating another universe'  Schwarzchild using GR showed that the
enormous mass and energy crushed together at the black hole's center
causes the fabric of "spacetime" to suffer a devastating rift,to be
radically warped into a state of "infinite curvature". He was describing
a singularity to us.  TreBert
 
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