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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / February 2006



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O'Barr:  A photon has real mass!

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Gerald L. O'Barr - 26 Feb 2006 01:23 GMT
O'Barr:  A photon has real mass!
  (Please note:  I am using the original definition
of the word 'mass.'  In my usage, 'rest mass' must be
used to describe the mass of a particle that is at
rest, and a particle appears to increase in mass as
it increases in its velocity.)

  Do photons have mass?  Absolutely!  A photon has
everything a particle would have if it had mass.  Let
us list the ways in which the characteristics of mass
is seen in a photon:

1)  A moving photon is a real particle!  Thus, it has
to have mass by the very nature of being a real
particle.

2)  A photon has inertia.  It can cause a space sail
to move (accelerate) in space, etc.

3)  A photon has momentum.  See previous statement.
See next statement.  See all these statements.

4)  A photon has kinetic energy.

5)  A photon is attracted by gravity.

6)  The mass of photons can become the mass of an
electron and positron, and vise versa.  Technically,
the mass of any object can become the mass of any
other object, because there is only one kind of mass.
Mass is mass!   There is no anti mass!  There might
be an anti-particle, but mass is always mass.

  So, does a photon have mass?  Anyone who knows
what a radiometer is (a vacuum radiometer) knows what
light can do.  Anyone who knows anything knows that
light has mass.  Now the questions that remain, is
why can the mass of a photon go faster than a
particle that has rest mass.  What are the
differences between 'rest mass' mass and pure
'kinetic mass' mass?
  Is kinetic mass different than rest mass, as a
mass?  It is my opinion, that as far as the
characteristic of mass is concerned, these masses
have to be the same.  One mass can result in the
other, in both directions!  Now it is true that a
funny factor of 2 might from time to time pop up here
or there.  But in the spall concept, such differences
are understood when one sees the differences in
interactions between particles that spall and
particles that bounce.  The mass itself does not
change.
  The only possible difference is in how the mass is
arranged or how it is allowed to interact with things
around it.  I believe that the mass of a photon has a
unique arrangement.  That is all.  In terms of its
inertia, in terms of its mass, it is all the same.
  It is very funny (sad?) that SR experts are
willing to overlook all these ways in which a photon
has mass, just so that they do not have to say that a
photon has mass moving at c.  They make themselves
blind to obvious facts, to obvious measurements, to
obvious observations, just because they worship.

  What should SR experts accept?  Not only does a
photon have mass, it has mass that moves at a
velocity of c.  And considering and accepting these
things would produce more advancements than running
away from such concepts.  In the ether, there are no
limits to the velocity of ether particles.  And ether
particles are composed of the very same mass as any
other particle that we now know in our own world.
  Our limits in motions on our level is due to the
nature of the interactions with ether particles.  And
particles can interact in many different ways:
  1) As single particles, with no drag.  This is how
ether particles work with other ether particles,
where the exchange in mass with other ether particles
is essentially zero.  In the deepest of space, after
a multitude of interactions, rare events do occur.
With no drag, there are no limits to velocity.
  2) As single particles, where drag is present.
These particles are larger in size than ether
particles and are exchanging mass with the ether
particles.  Some of these particles show a positive
drag, some a negative drag in the ether, depending on
whether there is an increase or a decrease in the
existing dispersion in the ether, as determined along
any one directional line.
  3) As dual particles (one with negative drag, the
other with positive drag), where translation effects
occur with the ether.  These translations can result
in motions in the ether.  These motions are unstable
in a pure linear form, but they can be stabilized
with a slight up and down planer motion (moving like
a snake) or in a slight rotational motion as is found
with light polarizations.  These snake like motions
(oscillations) or rotations introduce inertial
effects that establishes a long term stability to the
translations that are occurring.
  4) Groups of bounded dual particles, or more, can
also translate within the ether, and produce both
linear and rotation motions.  These particles can
reach and maintain certain stable linear and
rotational motions up to the limit of c.  These
particles are those that make up our standard atomic
particles.
  The above list is somewhat in order of size.  And
the 'drag,' as noted, in some cases, can be positive
or negative, depending on the type of interaction
being maintained with the ether.

Thanks for reading.
Gerald.

Please note, I have not 'scienced' all of the points
I have made up above.  The first three types of
particles have been reasonably done by computer runs
on the simplest one-dimensional level.  Anyone who
wants to come up to speed on any of this only has to
ask.  But writing your own program would be the best
way to do it.  Anyone should be able to duplicate
what I have done.
FrediFizzx - 26 Feb 2006 03:15 GMT
> O'Barr:  A photon has real mass!
>    (Please note:  I am using the original definition
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> to have mass by the very nature of being a real
> particle.

You don't have a clue as to what a photon really is.  A photon is a
quantum object and is decribed by QED.

I thought you believed in an aether theory?  If so, why in heck would
you think a photon needs to have mass?  In any kind of medium theory,
gauge bosons are just collective motions of the medium.  Man, are you
inconsistent!

[snip the rest without even reading]

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Gerald L. O'Barr - 26 Feb 2006 04:04 GMT
> . . . You don't have a clue as to what a photon really is.
> A photon is a quantum object and is decribed by QED.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>inconsistent!
>    . . .

Gerald L. O'Barr comments:
  Thanks for your response.  I do not know of anyone
who really knows what a photon really is!  And this
sure includes me!

  I do believe in an ether.   However
I do not believe that particles in the ether, even to
include the photon, are just waves in this ether.
In fact, the ether I believe in has particles that
have no forces existing between them.  The only
interactions are by collisions, one on one!  And
thus, there cannot be a wave in this ether as
might have been believed by Lorentz.  There are
cycles going on, such as mass density like
waves.  Or particle size variances.  But no waves
as you are thinking.

   I believe in the kinematics of Lorentz's ether,
in that there is an absolute reference, to which
lengths of rulers and rates of clocks can be related.
But the medium is only controlling these effects,
the medium itself does not form the particles.

  In these collisions, the ether particles can and
do exchange mass with the particles that are in
it.  And thus, particles in the ether can change
mass, they can be constantly changing their
mass, their position, their motions, their energy.
their momentum, etc, etc, etc.  So exactly
where did you get confused?

Thanks again!
Gerald.
FrediFizzx - 26 Feb 2006 05:38 GMT
> > . . . You don't have a clue as to what a photon really is.
> > A photon is a quantum object and is decribed by QED.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> waves.  Or particle size variances.  But no waves
> as you are thinking.

Trust me.  In any medium type theory even if the medium is a
relativistic quantum field type of medium, a photon will just be a
"wavicle" of the medium.  Perhaps you are thinking of what happens when
a photon is absorbed?  In a medium picture, virtual fermionic pairs of
the medium would have direct contact with the fermions involved in the
system that is absorbing the photon.

>     I believe in the kinematics of Lorentz's ether,
> in that there is an absolute reference, to which
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> their momentum, etc, etc, etc.  So exactly
> where did you get confused?

Go back to the drawing board.  You aren't even close. ;-)

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Gerald L. O'Barr - 26 Feb 2006 06:19 GMT
>>   . . .

<deletes by O'Barr>

>Trust me.  In any medium type theory even if
>the medium is a relativistic quantum field type
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>involved in the system that is absorbing the
>photon.

O'Barr comments:
  Trust has nothing to do with it.  In the
real ether, real particles of mass exist within
the ether.  And the collisions that take place
with ether particles result in spalls, not the
normal 'bounces' that exist with normal collisions.
So it is a most interesting thing, and you should
try it before you make all your rash comments.
  Spalls allow mass to move through the ether as
if it were not there, as far as first order affects
are of concerned.  All the effects that can be
seen end up being second order effects or less.
  The QM effects, these constant changes in mass,
momentum, and kinetic energy, etc, are first order
effects.  But they are so small, and their average
effects quickly add up to zero, so that they are
not normally too important in the final results.

But thanks for trying, anyway!
Gerald.
FrediFizzx - 26 Feb 2006 08:27 GMT
> >>   . . .
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> O'Barr comments:
>    Trust has nothing to do with it.

Sure it does but you certainly don't have to trust what I am saying.
That is your problem that you will just have to get over.  I have the
feeling you are trying to take a photon to be like a neutrino.  Gauge
bosons are not like fermions.

> In the
> real ether, real particles of mass exist within
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So it is a most interesting thing, and you should
> try it before you make all your rash comments.

Are you sure you really understand what "mass" is?

>    Spalls allow mass to move through the ether as
> if it were not there, as far as first order affects
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> effects quickly add up to zero, so that they are
> not normally too important in the final results.

"Spalls"?  LOL!  I haven't ever heard that term with regards to particle
physics.  Do you have any math to go with this "spall mechanics" of
yours?  Now I know you are just pulling my leg or something. ;-)

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Gerald L. O'Barr - 28 Feb 2006 02:18 GMT
> >     . . . .

<deletes by O'Barr>

O'Barr wrote:    . . .
> >    Spalls allow mass to move through the ether as
> > if it were not there, as far as first order affects
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> physics.  Do you have any math to go with this "spall mechanics" of
> yours?  Now I know you are just pulling my leg or something. ;-)

O'Barr comments:
  Do a simple google group search, using "at theory" and globarr.
This might bring up one or two articles.   Note that q-basic
programs have been written and posted several times.

   For the better references, find the following post:
Subject title:   O'Barr: At Theory (recent 2004) references.
Ref.:   <e9b03d3c.0406071236.1c5846b1@posting.google.com>

Partial copy below:
****************************************************************
Reference for recent posts on the at theory (May and
June, 2004), along with a few older references, are
given below.  Google search, on Groups, can be used
to read any of the recent posts.  A summary of some
of these posts are offered at the end of this post.

Gerald L. O'Barr <globarr...@yahoo.com> home pages:
     <http://www.geocities.com/globarr>

Our physical ether (5 pages.)
<e9b03d3c.0405041928.71afa...@posting.google.com>

The Transforms In LET (2 April 04)
<e9b03d3c.0404021639.46a56...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 1- May04: The collision equations.
<e9b03d3c.0405130925.6b064...@posting.google.com>

Re: O'Barr 2- May04: The Solutions to the collision
equations.
<e9b03d3c.0405140924.527bf...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 3- May04: Choosing a solution.
<e9b03d3c.0405141644.7cece...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 4- May04: The fun begins!
<e9b03d3c.0405150815.11429...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 5- May04: The ether background.
<e9b03d3c.0405151118.381f9...@posting.google.com>

   Re: O'Barr 5- May04: The ether background.
   <e9b03d3c.0405151814.5b809...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 6- May04: A basic at program.
<e9b03d3c.0405171106.8513...@posting.google.com>

    Re: O'Barr 6- May04: A basic at program.
   <e9b03d3c.0405171840.7ab42...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 7- May04: The Variables controlling spalls.
<e9b03d3c.0405180643.4bec...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 8- May04: Saturation Forces.
<e9b03d3c.0405220905.266c0...@posting.google.com>

O'Barr 9- Jun04: Particles and waves.
<e9b03d3c.0406050909.56250...@posting.google.com>

Gerald L. O'Barr   <globarr...@yahoo.com>
*********************
End to references.

Brief comments on the above:

   My 'home pages' were first posted in 1997.  They
post articles that date back as far as 1971.  One
article gave some of my basic philosophy, and one
presented some of the early day accomplishments when
computers became available.  Some of these home pages
were never completed, and probably never will be.

   'Our physical ether (5 pages)' is good for having
an overall feel for what the ether is all about, in
terms of the at theory math.

  'The Transforms In LET (2 April 04)' was an effort
to show how to formalize Lorentz with SR.  Since no
one responded to it, it should not be trusted too much.

Now to some of the new posts:
  In O'Barr 1, we considered the simplest possible
physical interaction, the simple act of two bodies
colliding.  And we thus present (discuss) the
simplest collision interaction.  I believe that this
is the simplest physical interaction that occurs in
our reality, and it just might be the only
interaction.  Whether any of this is correct or not,
knowing and understanding this basic interaction will
certainly be necessary in understanding our reality.

  In O'Barr 2, we presented the solutions to the
simplest collision interaction.  But we took care to
find the complete solutions.  And we found the
solutions for the most general form possible.  Such
solutions are not often considered.  We found that
there are two mathematical solutions.  We must now
address the physical meaning of these two solutions,
and possibly decide on which one is valid or the most
useful to us.
  On this, the most fundamental level of our
reality, if there is mass, we do not really know the
properties of this mass except that it has inertia.
We do not know its density or its stiffness or its
stress-strain capabilities.  We do not really know
anything about it.  But we will assume that it has a
density, and that all of its properties are constant
and uniform, both in space and in time.
  How would two pure mass particles interact in a
collision?

  In O'Barr 3, we chose the solutions that we would
use, based upon some feel about what our reality
demands.  And we introduced the exchange of mass
variable, 'd.'

  In O'Barr 4- May04: The fun begins!  We begin the
at theory.  We use the small exchange of mass
variable 'd' to allow for a mathematical expansion of
the square root function.  We show one example of
movement towards the source!  This is the appearance
of an attraction response from kinematics
interactions.  This was done through the use of math,
or at least the approximations that math can provide.
  At this point, we could instantly enter into the
at theory.  This would require us to specify the
background particles, the m's (m+d, m, and m-d
particles), their velocities, and their frequency of
appearing in each interaction, etc.   We would then
specify the particle being acted upon by this
background, the A or B particle.  Each of these
particles being acted upon would have a very specific
set of rules as to what d's are taken or given in
each expected interaction.  Once this is done, then
the computer can tell us if there are any net results
that occur.  If we place two particles in this
background, we can observe if they will attract each
other, or repel each other, or not have any effects
on each other.

 In O'Barr 5- May04: The ether background, we begin
to formulate our thoughts so that we can use a
computer.
  An addition post was made for completion.  We
added some tables showing the value of d when
particles that make up the ether collide with
themselves, and for d's when the A and B particles
interact with themselves.  For interactions between m
and m particles, no mass is exchanged (d = 0 for all
these interactions.)  This value of zero was also
assumed for the A with A, B with B, or A with B.
These tables can be changed when other relationships
become important.

 In O'Barr 6- May04: A basic at program was given.
Differences in 'd' tables were noted in an additional
post.  The choices in d are important in several
ways, they must insure that the mass of each particle
remain reasonably stable, and there has to be at
least some difference between the two different
particles, and the combination of the spalls from
these two particles must approach the original mix
that exists in the ether.  Some or all these things
will eventually occur if time is present to allow
everything to reach an equilibrium condition.  If we
force all this to happen immediately, then we can
immediately see that the results are most perfect!

O'Barr 7- May04: The Variables controlling spalls.

O'Barr 8- May04: Saturation Forces.
  A Dr. Daniel Decker, a University Professor who
has worked extensively at the Los Alamos Labs, NM,
read the at theory some years ago.  He readily
accepted the fact that forces were being generated
(he said this was obvious), . . .

O'Barr 9- Jun04: Particles and waves.

Thannks for reading.
Gerald L. O'Barr       <globarr...@yahoo.com>
Remove 3 dots for e-mail.
FrediFizzx - 28 Feb 2006 08:03 GMT
> > >     . . . .
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> This might bring up one or two articles.   Note that q-basic
> programs have been written and posted several times.

Sheesh, I don't have time for all that.  Post some math here right now
if you wish.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Gerald L. O'Barr - 28 Feb 2006 16:00 GMT
>>   . . .

<deletes by O'Barr>

O'Barr wrote:
>>  Do a simple google group search, using "at theory" and
>> globarr.  This might bring up one or two articles.
>> Note that q-basic programs have been written and posted
>> several times.

> Sheesh, I don't have time for all that.  Post some math
> here right now if you wish.

O'Barr comments:
  Well, at least you are more honest than most, you really
have no interest at all.  But just in case, let me say a
little about this theory.  Anyone can do the math, since it
is simple Newtonian math.  It is very much like the math in
PV = nRT.  However, it is more complicated than the kinetic
theory of gases because in the at theory, exchanges of mass
occur, as spalls, in every collision.  Therefore, in the at
theory, we have one new variable to include in the
relationship, these changes in mass, these exchanges in
mass, on top of all the other variables that are included
in PV = nRT.   And this new variable is found to be a non-
linear variable.  And this new variable is found to be
sufficient to provide to us the appearance of space
reaching forces.  It is sufficient to provide to us QM
effects.  It is sufficient to provide to us everything that
seemed to have been missing.  It even allows us to have an
ether, a real physical ether, which is a 'sea' of mass and
energy, yet appears to not be there as far as any first
order drag or resistance to motion is concerned.

  Now these changes in mass in these collisions have
to follow conservation laws.  That is, for any
particle that is a stable particle, then the exchanges of
mass over any cycle or long term time period must return to
some fixed amount.  Thus, no single interaction can be used
as any result of the theory.  One has to use a set of
interactions where the ending masses are reestablished for
all the particles involved.  Thus, the math is complicated
in that many series of interactions have to be followed,
and only net results are of interest.   I find, therefore,
that computer results are the most reliable, where all
interactions are set up, and followed, and once you have
what is seen to be stable, then you make your measurements
to see what over-all effects are occurring.   For these
reasons, I have very little math as to specific results.
Sorry about that.  The math exists, but only as
approximations.  The computer can handle hundreds of
interactions, and be much more exact in saying what is
going on.

Thanks for reading.
Gerald L. O'Barr       <globarr...@yahoo.com>
Hexenmeister - 26 Feb 2006 06:22 GMT
>> > . . . You don't have a clue as to what a photon really is.
>> > A photon is a quantum object and is decribed by QED.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Trust me.
Why, do you know it all?
I don't even trust me, let alone you.
Androcles.

> In any medium type theory even if the medium is a
> relativistic quantum field type of medium, a photon will just be a
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Bill Hobba - 26 Feb 2006 06:07 GMT
>> . . . You don't have a clue as to what a photon really is.
>> A photon is a quantum object and is decribed by QED.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>   Thanks for your response.  I do not know of anyone
> who really knows what a photon really is!

Only in the sense of no one really knowing what anything is.  It is the
quanta of the EM field.

Bill

> And this
> sure includes me!
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Thanks again!
> Gerald.
Dirk Van de moortel - 26 Feb 2006 10:47 GMT
> O'Barr:  A photon has real mass!
>    (Please note:  I am using the original definition
> of the word 'mass.'  In my usage, 'rest mass' must be
> used to describe the mass of a particle that is at
> rest, and a particle appears to increase in mass as
> it increases in its velocity.)

A dog has five legs!
(Please note:  I am not using the standard definition
of the word 'legs'.  In my usage, 'legs' must be used to
describe the long things growing out of a dog's body.)

Dirk Vdm
SCW - 26 Feb 2006 13:23 GMT
> > O'Barr:  A photon has real mass!
> >    (Please note:  I am using the original definition
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Dirk Vdm

No Dirk, that's just plain crazy talk. Using your method, a dog would
eight or nine leg depending on its sex.

SCW
SCW - 26 Feb 2006 13:37 GMT
<snip>

> 5)  A photon is attracted by gravity.

Actually, this is a fair point well put (not sure about the rest!)

The definition used in high school for mass is "mass of an object
refers to the amount of matter that is contained by the object"

(http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/newtlaws/u2l2b.html)

But this just tautology and a little lazy.

A correct definition is closer to "In fact, mass is defined dynamically
in terms of force and acceleration"

(http://www.rwc.uc.edu/koehler/biophys/2c.html)

In which case, a reasonable test for mass is if it susceptible to
gravity - which photons are.

SCW
Hexenmeister - 26 Feb 2006 14:50 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> SCW
Very good! You are too bright to be wasted on idiots like O'Barre.
I'll mark your posts for reading, it's not often I find anyone with any
sense in this newsgroup. Pity some of your other post were
a little off the wall. So.... what IS mass, now that you are closer
to measuring it in terms of force and acceleration?
m = F/a ?
Even acceleration is relative (and zero from the pov of the other
car on the dragstrip as the cross the finish line together.
Does that mean the other car's mass is infinite?
Androcles.
PD - 28 Feb 2006 19:00 GMT
> O'Barr:  A photon has real mass!
>    (Please note:  I am using the original definition
> of the word 'mass.'

Which is what, in particular?

> In my usage, 'rest mass' must be
> used to describe the mass of a particle that is at
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> to have mass by the very nature of being a real
> particle.

I don't know where you got the idea that the definition of "real
particle" includes the property "has mass". Where did you see that
requirement?

> 2)  A photon has inertia.  It can cause a space sail
> to move (accelerate) in space, etc.
>
> 3)  A photon has momentum.  See previous statement.

Indeed. Statements 2 and 3 are not distinct, especially if you call the
ability to cause a space sail to move the operational definition of
"inertia". (Not all would agree with that definition, by the way.)
However, I don't know where you got the idea that having momentum
requires having mass. Where do you see that requirement?

> See next statement.  See all these statements.
>
> 4)  A photon has kinetic energy.

I don't know where you got the idea that having kinetic energy requires
having mass. Where do you see that requirement?

> 5)  A photon is attracted by gravity.

I don't know where you got the idea that gravity only attracts bodies
with mass. Where did you see that requirement?

> 6)  The mass of photons can become the mass of an
> electron and positron, and vise versa.  Technically,
> the mass of any object can become the mass of any
> other object, because there is only one kind of mass.
> Mass is mass!   There is no anti mass!  There might
> be an anti-particle, but mass is always mass.

I don't know if you know this or not, but a single photon cannot
produce an electron-positron pair. The fact that this does not happen
tells you something interesting, because a photon that has mass
certainly ought to be able to do that. It's also interesting that you
would simply overlook that marked experimental absence of something
that should happen (according to you). I think you should look a little
more closely at the conditions under which photons convert to electrons
and positrons.

>    So, does a photon have mass?  Anyone who knows
> what a radiometer is (a vacuum radiometer) knows what
> light can do.

This proves that light has momentum and proves nothing else.

> Anyone who knows anything knows that
> light has mass.  Now the questions that remain, is
> why can the mass of a photon go faster than a
> particle that has rest mass.  What are the
> differences between 'rest mass' mass and pure
> 'kinetic mass' mass?

I'm sorry... I don't believe you've defined "kinetic mass".

>    Is kinetic mass different than rest mass, as a
> mass?  It is my opinion, that as far as the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> funny factor of 2 might from time to time pop up here
> or there.

Ooh, gotta love that. "My calculations may differ from what we see by a
factor or two here and there, but it's my opinion that should matter,
not whether the calculations agree with observation."

>  But in the spall concept, such differences
> are understood when one sees the differences in
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
> way to do it.  Anyone should be able to duplicate
> what I have done.
 
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