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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / April 2006



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TIME DILATION

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Vert - 24 Apr 2006 09:03 GMT
I am rerunning this article because the TWIN PARADOX tables (which are
crucial) were all screwed up. When the reader comes to them now, he can
see them by following the link placed there.
===============================================

TIME DILATION

Vertner Vergon

We examine time dilation as set forth in Einstein's paper and find it
has an inconsistency and a reductio ad absurdum. We ascertain a correct
time variation and illustrate its viability.

There is always an open question as to the accuracy of Scientific
articles. So the question arises, how can we judge the accuracy of an
article that involves a theory?

Firstly, the article (theory) must be consistent both internally and
with empiricism. If it isn't it is flawed.

Secondly, it must not violate any known physics laws. Nor, obviously,
can it lead to a reductio ad absurdum.

Theories necessarily contain speculation - else they are not theories
but simply logical constructs. Such constructs must also meet the above
requirements.

Articles generally contain both theory and reference to facts (such as
experiments). These must be verified.

If an article ( or theory) meets these requirements it cannot be
rejected. If it is, it is done so out of sheer obstinancy and/or
stupidity.

Let us examine the concept of Time Dilation as contained in the Special
Theory of Relativity.
We start our examination of the time dilation concept by going to its
source -- Einstein's paper, On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies. We
refer to his gedanken experiment of moving clocks. One of two
synchronized identical clocks remains at rest while the other moves
away and returns. When Einstein perceived the difference of the clock
readings in his calculations, he stated the moving clock "was slow by
...". The immediate perception by the public was that he meant if a
clock was "slow by" - it had to have run slower. He also said the
moving clock was "behind" the inertial clock by ... . These two
statements do not mean the same thing. If one clock is running slower,
then it is running slower, and that has only one meaning.
On the other hand to say one clock is behind the other is open to
alternative explanations, e.g., the moving clock could have traveled a
shorter world line -- or may have traveled faster than observed. In
either case the clock would maintain its normal (proper) rate but for a
shorter duration than the inertial clock and thus be behind. At any
rate the accepted version is that the clock ran slower and thus was
born the concept of time dilation.
This concept is usually presented by an illustration that says if one
were to observe a clock on a fast moving spaceship, they would observe
it to run slowly. It must be emphasized that this running slowly occurs
regardless of the direction or vector of the ship. That is to say it
matters not whether the spaceship is receding or approaching, time runs
slower. Also to be emphasized is that this slowness of time is not just
a matter of observation but actually takes place -- for when the clock
returns it is actually 'behind" the stationary (or Earth) clock.
Since this is the declared case, we are inevitably drawn to only one
conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
coordinate system. Here we are faced with an unforgiving contradiction
for basic relativity states that all clocks keep proper time in their
respective coordinate systems. It is inconsistent that a clock can
actually run slowly in its own coordinate system - and also, the
while, keep proper time; in short the clock would have to keep two
different rates simultaneously, a reductio ad absurdum. This
contradiction requires that the time dilation concept, i.e., t' = t (1
- v2/c2) 1/2 be discarded.
The question arises, is there something to take its place? The answer
is yes.
To lay the foundation for this replacement we note that any known
constant frequency is a clock. The scientific community has chosen the
excited cesium atom as the standard atomic clock. This is an arbitrary
choice. Next, we note that the cesium clock (or any other constant
frequency atom) will never vary in its rate. So they will always keep
proper time. However, observations of these clocks will show a
variation due to the Doppler effect. We declare this variation in
frequency is a variation in observed time. Since the frequency is a
clock, an observed variation in the frequency is an observed variation
in time. Call it Doppler or what one will, that is merely a description
of the mechanics. In the final analysis it is a variation in observed
time.
THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM.
Next, we examine a counter argument which states that the relativistic
Doppler rate is the result of the following: If one takes the
non-relativistic Doppler rate and modifies it by the time dilation
they, come up with the relativistic Doppler rate. This, supposedly,
confirms time dilation. Upon further examination, we perceive that even
if we were to accept that explanation, what we have is the situation
whereby an approaching clock is observed to run fast -- not as fast as
non-relativistic mechanics would have -- but fast. This is contrary to
time dilation which requires an approaching clock to run slowly. That a
reversal in direction results in a reversal of time rate is to be
expected since time variation is the result of velocity vectors - and
vectors are directional.
If a theory conflicts with empiricism, it has to be discarded.
Using the Doppler rate as the time rate will yield the time dilation
effect. And that is the proper way to refer to it -- "time dilation
effect". The reason: The net time differential when the movement of the
clock is complete is the same as though the dilation time was operative
throughout.
What then? What is the explanation for the "effect", but not the
actuality? Particle accelerator operators and Ives & Stillwell claim to
have "directly observed" time dilation. What they have observed is
transverse Doppler rates. And it so happens, by some extraordinary
coincidence, that the transverse Doppler rate is the same as the time
dilation rate.
And now to display the Doppler time resolution of the Twins Paradox:
What is displayed here is the round trip Twins experience with no
paradox. The upward arrow signifies outward bound, the downward arrow
signifies inward bound. The double arrows signify the ship being
observed going outbound while it in actuality is traveling inbound.
(second chart). This, of course, is due to the time it takes light to
travel. The observed velocity is v(.75c). At this velocity the so
called time dilation rate is 1/2 . The distance to far-point is sqrt(3
light seconds). So the elapsed time for the ship's transit is one
second due to the fact its actual velocity is sqrt(3 light seconds/sec)
( See The Dual VelocitiesTheory of Relativity.)*
( For seconds or years, the figures hold.)
This means that four years on earth would be only two years on ship.
The time rates shown in the second chart are the time rates of the ship
as observed by earth. They are Doppler rates.
They have to be. Any invariable frequency -- clock or atom -- will be
observed at Doppler rates. The same is true for observations of earth
by the ship (first chart). So there is a parity of rate observations as
required by the principle of relativity.
Notice, there is no time dilation rate observed (1/2 in this case) --
but when the trip is concluded the difference in the clock readings is
as though the ship clock had run at half time to the earth clock, i.e.
, run at dilation time. When Einstein saw that in his calculations
(1905 paper) he said the A clock "ran slow" by ... . This created the
impression that time really ran slower for the ship's clock. The table
below shows this isn't so. It runs at the normal (proper) rate but is
observed to run at the Doppler rate.
It is worth mentioning that according to the Special Theory of
Relativity a clock in the approach mode runs slow - but astronomers
observe clocks in the approach mode, and they are running fast.
Consequently, there is no time dilation observed. There is, however, a
time dilation effect, i.e., the transit time differential on the two
clocks -- and these were created by Doppler time.

OBSERVE:

ASTRONAUT'S TABLE

***************************
TO SEE THE TABLE CLICK THIS LINK --- THEN LOOK FOR THE PULLDOWN "LIST
OF AUTHORS" AND FIND VERTNER VERGON -- THEN CLICK ON THE MARCH  5 ENTRE
http://www.wbabin.net    THE TABLE IS IN THAT ARTICLE.

So we see that although the final time differential is as though time
dilation were operating - in fact it is the Doppler time-frequency
that operates.

Note: Not only is there a parity of rate observations, but the length
of time each twin is an observer is equal to the time he is observed.
Thus there is a time commonality of observation. This, in a space-time
chart given in Space-time Physics (by Taylor and Wheeler), is labeled
the "line of simultaneity".

·    This article may be found at http://www.wbabin.net . Go to the pull
down "List of Authors" and click on Vertner Vergon. Then click on
the March 10 insertion

·    To calculate the Astronomer's observation of the outgoing trip,
we note the following:The distance to far point is 1.732 light seconds.
The velocity of the ship to the astronomer is the relativistic .866 c.
Thus it will take two seconds for transit. But Astronomer will not
observe that until light recording that event arrives at earth. This
will take 1.732 seconds. Adding the 2 seconds and the 1.732 seconds
yields the 3.732 seconds of observation (upward arrows).
Regarding the return trip: Even though the ship is traveling at a
(Newtonian) speed greater than c, it does not surpass the light
recording its journey. Instead, the waves pile up (condense) in front
of it and are observed by Astronomer at the rate of 3.732 times norm.
This phenomenon indicates that light can travel faster than c but the
manifestation of that is an increased frequency (shorter wavelength)
- with the observation of c as the velocity.
Harry - 24 Apr 2006 09:33 GMT
> I am rerunning this article because the TWIN PARADOX tables (which are
> crucial) were all screwed up. When the reader comes to them now, he can
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Let us examine the concept of Time Dilation as contained in the Special
> Theory of Relativity.

Most of us here have done that...

> We start our examination of the time dilation concept by going to its
> source -- Einstein's paper, On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies.

It's not the first source, but that paper was the first to elaborate on it.

> We
> refer to his gedanken experiment of moving clocks. One of two
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> moving clock was "behind" the inertial clock by ... . These two
> statements do not mean the same thing.

The two examples are related but different.

> If one clock is running slower,
> then it is running slower, and that has only one meaning.
> On the other hand to say one clock is behind the other is open to
> alternative explanations, e.g., the moving clock could have traveled a
> shorter world line -- or may have traveled faster than observed.

?? "traveling faster" doesn't explain by itself a different clock reading.

> In
> either case the clock would maintain its normal (proper) rate but for a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a matter of observation but actually takes place -- for when the clock
> returns it is actually 'behind" the stationary (or Earth) clock.

That is an oversimplification.
- for two inertial clocks we can't say what actually takes place as it
depends on one's choice of reference frame
- it actually takes place for the non-inertial clock relative to the
inertial clock: in that case it does *not* depend on one's choice of
reference frame.

> Since this is the declared case, we are inevitably drawn to only one
> conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
> coordinate system.

??! - probably due to your oversimplification. And as you already indicated,
"proper time" can't change by definition.

Harald
dralexgreen@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Apr 2006 09:40 GMT
There is a straightforward explanation of the twin paradox in a book on
SR at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special_relativity . The problem
that you are concentrating on the idea that the clocks actually run
slow and dont just move from place to place in a space-time manifold.
The real problem, especially its relation to the Andromeda paradox, is
far more interesting.

Best wishes

Alex Green
Hexenmeister - 24 Apr 2006 13:15 GMT
| There is a straightforward explanation of the twin paradox in a book on
| SR at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special_relativity . The problem
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Alex Green

What real problem?
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Synchronize/Synchronize.htm
Androcles.
Vert - 25 Apr 2006 21:50 GMT
Hi Alex. I can tell you did not read my post all the way through --
including the link to another article on the Dual Velocity Theory of
Relativity.

As to the "solution" you referred me to -- the space does NOT contract,
it only seems to. Why?
Because Bill is actually traveling at 1.33333 c. Multiply that by the
Lorentz contraction of .6 and you get the .8c. At 1.333333c Bill will
make the journey in 7.5 sec.

Further, Time dilation requires an approaching object to experience
slow time whereas astronomers observe approaching objects to experience
faster than normal times. Can you explain that?

You really must see the charts that explain the whole thing. They will
not come up on the NG but I have them published in the  General Science
Journal. You can see them by going to the link http://www.wbabin.net
and finding the pull down entitled LIST OF AUTHORS. Go to Vertner
Vergon and click on that. You will see the article listed on the Aril
24 insertion. The charts are just fine there.

Believe me, you will benefit if you read the whole works. At one time I
believed the distance traveled shrunk but eventually I realized this
was not so.

Best regards,

V ert
Alex - 26 Apr 2006 10:57 GMT
You wrote:

"Also to be emphasized is that this slowness of time is not just
a matter of observation but actually takes place -- for when the clock
returns it is actually 'behind" the stationary (or Earth) clock.
Since this is the declared case, we are inevitably drawn to only one
conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
coordinate system. "

No, there is not only one conclusion. Most of the lost clock ticks
occur as a result of the time at the destination already being advanced
in the frame of the moving clock even when it begins its journey.  What
happens is that moving objects have a different present moment from
objects that are not travelling along with them. This is why the
Andromeda paradox is central to understanding the twin paradox.

A rocket moving past you on the way to Andromeda has a huge head start
compared with someone walking towards Andromeda. For the rocket the
clocks on Andromeda are already years ahead of those in the present
moment of the pedestrian!  If two people travel around a spatial
manifold along different paths they cover different distances space. If
they travel along different paths in a space-TIME manifold  they cover
different distances in space and different distances in time.

Best wishes

Alex Green
Hexenmeister - 26 Apr 2006 14:47 GMT
| You wrote:
|
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| occur as a result of the time at the destination already being advanced
| in the frame of the moving clock even when it begins its journey.

No, there is only one conclusion:  you are an incompetent shithead.

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Doppler/Doppler.htm

Androcles
Alex - 26 Apr 2006 16:02 GMT
Why are you being unpleasant?

If it is assumed that the universe is a (3+1)D manifold that observers
with clocks can travel around then it would not be surprising to find
that these travels will lead to differences in clock cycles for each
observer if the paths are different. The "planes of simultaneity" in
relativity are philosophical "present moments" or "present instants"
and, in an effectively 4D universe, where space and time are coupled by
a Pythagorean relationship, we should not be surprised if what one
observer considers is within her present moment is different from what
another observer believes is in their present moment.   Given the
assumption of a (3+1)D universe SR is mathematically consistent and
correct.

It seems to me that you must doubt that space-time exists. That is a
valid philosophical position but a difficult physical position.  Surely
as someone with an interest in physics you can contain both ideas - the
established idea of the universe as a (3+1)D manifold and your position
which appears to be a form of presentism.

After all, the universe is the same whichever conceptual position we
take!

The problem here is that there may be genuine enquiries on this group
which require answers within the context of established concepts.
Whether you attack every explanation in terms of these concepts or not
the concepts will remain but you will discourage anyone from using this
group to solicit help.

Why not give the established answers to questions such as the twin
paradox when beginners are posting and reserve more
philosophical/theoretical threads for lambasting the ideas of people
who are prepared to argue the toss about four dimensionalism?

Best wishes

Alex Green
Hexenmeister - 26 Apr 2006 16:14 GMT
| Why are you being unpleasant?

Who are you trying to communicate with?
Androcles.
Dirk Van de moortel - 26 Apr 2006 17:19 GMT
> | Why are you being unpleasant?
>
> Who are you trying to communicate with?

With a piece of canine excrement.

Dirk Vdm
Hexenmeister - 26 Apr 2006 18:03 GMT
| > | Why are you being unpleasant?
| >
| > Who are you trying to communicate with?
|
| With a piece of canine excrement.

Oops, sorry. He did mean you then.
Androcles

| Dirk Vdm
Henry Haapalainen - 26 Apr 2006 23:41 GMT
> | You wrote:
> |
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Androcles

Androcles, when you answer to the postings, you ought to tell that you are a
"newtonian". Then people would know that you are a "man from the past", and
they would understand you better.

Henry Haapalainen
Dirk Van de moortel - 27 Apr 2006 06:46 GMT
> > | You wrote:
> > |
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> "newtonian". Then people would know that you are a "man from the past", and
> they would understand you better.

Androcles is a demented retard. He's not a "newtonian":
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras3.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras2.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/EMWaves2.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/KineticEnergy.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/TimeIsFreq2.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Component.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SoundSource.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PureNonsense.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Chuckle2.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Competent.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MoreEM.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/EMWaves.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Sound.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Magnetic.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/TimeIsFreq.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Coulomb.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/NoEnergy.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MakeFool.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndroMMX.html
 http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/EnergyConservation.html

Dirk Vdm
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 11:35 GMT
| > | You wrote:
| > |
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
| Androcles, when you answer to the postings, you ought to tell that you are a
| "newtonian".

Shithead, when you say "acceleration is only apparent" you should pay
me  US$1000 as your reputation is at stake.
Androcles
AllYou! - 27 Apr 2006 13:56 GMT
> | > | You wrote:
> | > |
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> me  US$1000 as your reputation is at stake.
> Androcles

Hmmmmmm, let's see.  The first thing you've done is to betray your
extreme fear of being proven wrong in public.  Now there are all sorts
of reasons for why you've got such a deep seeded fear, but I'll
speculate that because you also seem to issue meaningless commands
(I'll get to that below) so easily, it probably all stems from the
fact that either you were mercilessly humiliated as a child either by
your parents, or by the bullies at school who probably did things like
pants you in from of the girl you were sweet on.

Now as to your command to *f.ck off*, this aspect of your post betrays
your intense need to control your environment.  This is an offshoot of
your intense fear, but it manifests itself in the need to prevent any
further humiliations by fantasizing that you have the ability to
control what others will do.

And finally, the use of the word *c.nt* in such a derogatory context
probably means that it's your mother who humiliated you so.  Either
that, or instead of the bullies at school who did it, it was really
the girls.  How sad for you.

Anyway, I'm here to help.  The first thing I think you should do is
seek help quickly.  You see, it's just a matter of time before you run
into some circumstance or other wherein you'll be so humiliated and
you'll find yourself completely powerless to prevent it that you'll
snap and either do terrible damage to yourself, or to someone close
you.  But I might be wrong.  You just might go postal at complete
strangers.

In any event, get help quickly.  You're a mess.
Vert - 26 Apr 2006 21:59 GMT
VERT

"Also to be emphasized is that this slowness of time is not just
a matter of observation but actually takes place -- for when the clock
returns it is actually 'behind" the stationary (or Earth) clock.
Since this is the declared case, we are inevitably drawn to only one
conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
coordinate system. "

ALEX
No, there is not only one conclusion. Most of the lost clock ticks
occur as a result of the time at the destination already being advanced

in the frame of the moving clock even when it begins its journey.  What

happens is that moving objects have a different present moment from
objects that are not travelling along with them. This is why the
Andromeda paradox is central to understanding the twin paradox.

A rocket moving past you on the way to Andromeda has a huge head start

VERT
What do you mean by "head start"? Head start means to start early or
ahead of your competitor.
And what has that to do with the subject?

ALEX
compared with someone walking towards Andromeda. For the rocket the
clocks on Andromeda are already years ahead of those in the present
moment of the pedestrian!

VERT
I beg to differ with you. It is generally agreed that to look out into
space is to look BACKWARD in time -- so how can Andromeda be AHEAD of
one starting toward it?

ALEX
If two people travel around a spatial
manifold along different paths they cover different distances space. If

they travel along different paths in a space-TIME manifold  they cover
different distances in space and different distances in time.

VERT
It may be well to keep in mind that the so-called space-time manifold
is nothing more than a method of graphing ---- we graph the movement of
a body through an x, y, z cordinate system as a function of time. The
path is known as a world line. The same thing is accomplished by my
charting system --- and much clearer. As to your Andromeda Paradox, I
don't see how one paradox can solve another.
Hexenmeister - 24 Apr 2006 13:15 GMT
| There is a straightforward explanation of the twin paradox in a book on
| SR at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special_relativity . The problem
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Alex Green

"Special relativity (SR) or the 'special theory of relativity' was discovered by Albert Einstein"

That's a lie, dralex.  
Albert Fuckwit Einstein INVENTED SR. See
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
Androcles
Tom Roberts - 26 Apr 2006 03:41 GMT
> we are inevitably drawn to only one
> conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
> coordinate system.

There's the central mistake you make. There is no such "inevitability",
and indeed there is another possibility: the moving clock followed a
different path through spacetime, one with a smaller elapsed proper time.

    As I have said so often, attempts to argue by exhaustive
    enumeration usually fail because the argument omits
    important possibilities.

An automobile driving Chicago => New York obtains one odometer reading.
A second car driving Chicago => New Orleans => New York obtains a larger
odometer reading.

You are in essence arguing that for that second car the odometer is
"running faster" compared to the first. In actuality, this difference in
traveled distance is fully explained by their different paths through space.

The same thing applies to time dilation and the "twin paradox" in
relativity -- the differences are _fully_ explained by examining the
paths through spacetime of the clocks (twins). Indeed, if one assumes
one clock is "running slowly" one predicts a value in conflict with
actual measurements.

Tom Roberts
Pentcho Valev - 26 Apr 2006 06:45 GMT
>  > we are inevitably drawn to only one
>  > conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> one clock is "running slowly" one predicts a value in conflict with
> actual measurements.

Einstein's hypnotists really know no limits!

Pentcho Valev
Harry - 26 Apr 2006 09:42 GMT
SNIP

> The same thing applies to time dilation and the "twin paradox" in
> relativity -- the differences are _fully_ explained by examining the
> paths through spacetime of the clocks (twins).
> Indeed, if one assumes
> one clock is "running slowly" one predicts a value in conflict with
> actual measurements.

Correction: in 1905 Einstein assumed just that ("the clock must go more
slowly"), and the value he predicted happens to be quite correct (apart of
the lack of taking GRT effects into account of course).

Harald
Vert - 26 Apr 2006 21:30 GMT
Vert wrote:

> we are inevitably drawn to only one
> conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
> coordinate system.

There's the central mistake you make. There is no such "inevitability",

and indeed there is another possibility: the moving clock followed a
different path through spacetime, one with a smaller elapsed proper
time.

VERT
If you'll read my post carefully you will see that I mention a shorter
world line. The fact remains that a shorter world line means a faster
(than observed) velocity. There is only ONE distance, that traveled
from A to B by the moving clock, and if that is covered in less time
then the velocity has to be greater.

    As I have said so often, attempts to argue by exhaustive
    enumeration usually fail because the argument omits
    important possibilities.

An automobile driving Chicago => New York obtains one odometer reading.

A second car driving Chicago => New Orleans => New York obtains a
larger
odometer reading.

You are in essence arguing that for that second car the odometer is
"running faster" compared to the first. In actuality, this difference
in
traveled distance is fully explained by their different paths through
space.

VERT
I didn't argue that at all. In Einstein's posit ther is only ONE space,
that traveled by the moving clock.

The same thing applies to time dilation and the "twin paradox" in
relativity -- the differences are _fully_ explained by examining the
paths through spacetime of the clocks (twins). Indeed, if one assumes
one clock is "running slowly" one predicts a value in conflict with
actual measurements.

VERT
Einstein's clock experiment and the "Twins Paradox" are the same thing.
Tom Roberts
Hexenmeister - 26 Apr 2006 23:39 GMT
| Vert wrote:
|
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
|
| There's the central mistake you make. There is no such "inevitability",

Why is Vert talking to Vert?
Androcles.

| and indeed there is another possibility: the moving clock followed a
| different path through spacetime, one with a smaller elapsed proper
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
| Einstein's clock experiment and the "Twins Paradox" are the same thing.
| Tom Roberts
Harry - 27 Apr 2006 14:37 GMT
> | Vert wrote:
> |
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Why is Vert talking to Vert?
> Androcles.

Yes that's weird - Vert even strongly disagrees with Vert!
Harald
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 14:55 GMT
| > | Vert wrote:
| > |
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
| Yes that's weird - Vert even strongly disagrees with Vert!

I saw that. Maybe Vert is schizophrenic, complete with fully divided
personality.

Hmm.. that can't be right.
 "Despite its etymology, schizophrenia is not synonymous with
dissociative identity disorder, also known as multiple personality
disorder or "split personality"; in popular culture the two are often
confused. "
(wackypedia)

Let's hope he isn't a psychopath like Dork Van de merde.

"intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and
violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking
in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they
want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without
the slightest sense of guilt or regret."
(wackypedia)
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/trojan.htm

Androcles.
Alex - 26 Apr 2006 10:33 GMT
The Andromeda paradox and twin paradox are not that complicated. See:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special_relativity

Especially the section on the Andromeda paradox because this needs to
be understood before the twin paradox can be unravelled in terms of
navigating around a (3+1)D manifold.

Best wishes

Alex Green
Hexenmeister - 26 Apr 2006 14:47 GMT
| The Andromeda paradox and twin paradox are not that complicated,

just f.cking nonsense.

| See:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Baez/people_v_Baez.htm

Androcles
freezer - 27 Apr 2006 09:15 GMT
>Since this is the declared case, we are inevitably drawn to only one
>conclusion, the moving clock has to be running slowly in its own
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>contradiction requires that the time dilation concept, i.e., t' = t (1
>- v2/c2) 1/2 be discarded.

im not sure i quite understand this.  how can a clock  run slowly in
its own coordinate system? surely the clock IS the coordinate system,
just as much as a set of rulers laid out on the ground defines the
distances.

Vert - 29 Apr 2006 07:20 GMT
FREEZER
im not sure i quite understand this.  how can a clock  run slowly in
its own coordinate system? surely the clock IS the coordinate system,
just as much as a set of rulers laid out on the ground defines the
distances.

VERGON

The clock is not the cordinate system --- the co-ordinates x,y,z, are.

Read what I wrote more closely. EVERY clock keeps proper ("regular")
time in its own co-ordinate system. So the moving clock must go at the
proper rate. It cannot go slower as Einstein declared --- and it
certainy cannot go slower and at the proper rate at the same time.
freezer - 29 Apr 2006 10:57 GMT
>FREEZER
>im not sure i quite understand this.  how can a clock  run slowly in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>proper rate. It cannot go slower as Einstein declared --- and it
>certainy cannot go slower and at the proper rate at the same time.

hmm, i fear i expressed myself poorly here. any observer  is free to
define his own coordinate system, x,y,z,t  yes? and just as the set of
rulers define position x,y,z, so the numbers on the clock defines the
time, t,  which just provides a relative measure of the rate at which
all physical processes (or at least all those mediated by
electromagnetic forces) run in that particular part of space compared
to somewhere else.

i was under the impression that  this time, or  rate,  does indeed
actually run slower or faster relative to an identically constructed
clock situated in some other region of space, for example in the case
of two clocks one fixed at the top of a mountain and one fixed at the
bottom. so if the twin possessed of a mystical disposition retires to
live in a cave at the top of the mountain to meditate on lifes
mysteries, when he comes back down he will discover his twin looks a
bit younger.

and the only real  disagreement begins when one starts to consider
what happens  when the clocks are moving relative to each other?

could it be that  the defnition of what exactly is meant by proper
rate is the problem here? i thought that the proper rate, or proper
time,  is just the numbers you see on  the clock, yes, no? there is no
absolute rate, or absolute,  time anywhere in the universe to which
all other clocks need be compared?
 
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