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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / April 2006



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ON THE CO-DEPENDENCE OF TIME DILATION, SUPERLUMINAL VELOCITIES, AND RELATIVISTIC MASS

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Vert - 26 Apr 2006 20:29 GMT
ON THE CO-DEPENDENCE OF TIME DILATION, SUPERLUMINAL VELOCITIES, AND
RELATIVISTIC MASS
Vertner Vergon

ABSTRACT:

The special theory of relativity is a quintessential example of
mathematical physics at work. There is no doubt as to its veracity or
accomplishments but unfortunately it leaves one disoriented when trying
to interpret its mathematical results in terms of every day experience.
This has led to the philosophy that we should disregard what our senses
dictate as reality. In turn physics theory has gone awry, engaging in
flights of fancy with no constraint as long as it is supported by
esoteric mathematics.

It is time to set the record straight, to interpret correctly the
misinterpretations of Einstein. The areas that need clarification are
Time Dilation, Relativistic Mass, and c as a limit (Superluminal
Velocities). These three are all tied together, one dependent upon the
other.

THE IMPORTANCE OF SUPERLUMINAL VELOCITIES.

Not to discuss whether UFOs really exist but rather if there were
intelligent life elsewhere in the universe -- and they had a high
technology -- could they reach us considering the vast distances, the
limiting speed of light, and the time it would take for voyagers to
transit? Is there a velocity/time barrier surrounding us that forever
places us in isolation? Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) the answer
is no for superluminal velocities are possible and the only limit
placed on interstellar travel is the technology of transit, i.e., the
technology of attainable velocity.

As a consequence, this dissertation will deal firstly with the
existence of superluminal velocities. To do this we will summarize the
Dual Velocity Theory of Relativity. It seems everybody agrees
*observed* longitudinal length in an observed frame decreases with an
increase in relative velocity.

Postulate 1: Longitudinal length and "distance" are the same thing as
longitudinal length is also a distance.

Postulate 2: Velocity is distance per unit time.

Conclusion: Since longitudinal length reduces with an increase in
velocity, then *observed* velocity reduces with an increase in velocity
of the moving frame. Restated: The velocity of the moving frame is
greater than the observed velocity. Thus we have two velocities, the
observed velocity -- and the true velocity of the moving frame. The two
velocities are Lorentz variant. That is true velocity times the Lorentz
transform equals the observed velocity.

Where V is the velocity of the moving frame, v the observed velocity,
and R the Lorentz transform ---

v ( 1- v^2/c^2) , V x R = v

Thus there are two velocities, that which is extant -- and that which
is observed. It will be found that as V goes to infinity, v goes to c.
Therefore we conclude that superluminal velocities exist. We also
conclude that in p = mv/R, the R applies to v not to m. So there is no
such thing as relativistic mass. The mass is invariable and v is the
observation of V that goes to infinity as R goes to zero.

PURSUING A BEAM OF LIGHT

Scenario 1

If you pursue a beam of light, your velocity has to be relative to the
emitter. As you gain in velocity the frequency reduces. At c it is
zero. No "spatial oscillation". Also, at c, the energy of the photon is
zero -- and the momentum is zero. Zero frequency, zero energy, zero
momentum = there is nothing to observe. But how can that be? The photon
must have consisted of something. The only conclusion is that what you
behold are a static electric and static magnetic field. They are at
rest to you and have no energy, momentum or frequency.

Scenario 2

There is a problem with our posit. The speed of light is c to all
frames. We state you pursue a beam of light. Forgotten is that that
beam of light will *always* precede you at c -- thus you can never
attain a velocity equal to the photon. So even as the frequency goes to
zero (and the energy and momentum too) the beam is preceding you at c.

Does that mean the velocity of the photon is 2c? Consider the spatial
contraction aspect. At c *all* the space up front is apparently
contracted to zero. That means the photon is everywhere up front at
once. That is why time in the photon's frame is considered stopped. It
can cover any distance with no lapse in time. With a little cogitation
one realizes that fits the description of infinite velocity.

Since the space does not really contract, we are drawn to the
conclusion that the velocity of light is really infinite (or infinitely
great). In section 4 of his famous paper Einstein states: "... the
velocity of light in our theory plays the part, physically, of an
infinitely great velocity".

Interpretation of Mathematics

We should not be so enamored about the accuracy of mathematics. Whereas
the procedures and operations may be more or less accurate, the
failings come in the interpretations of the results.

Examples:

In his clock gedanken experiment, Einstein saw his moving clock was
"behind" (his word) the at rest clock and concluded that the moving
clock ran slower. Wrong.

Correct interpretation: The moving clock traveled faster than measured
-- and therefore made its transit in less time than experienced by the
inertial clock. Therefore, with both clocks keeping the same rate, the
moving clock makes its transit in *less time*. Thus we see the moving
clock keeping proper time but being behind the inertial clock at the
end of its journey. There is no slowing of the clock. Thus we see time
dilation as proposed by Einstein does not exist. (Nor does the Twin
Paradox.)

Relativistic mass

Einstein's math showed that as a body approached c, its energy
requirements, approached infinity as did its momentum. His conclusion:
This was due to an increase in inertial mass -- thus the bugaboo of
relativistic mass was born. His math also showed that as a body
approached c, its transit time of a longitudinal distance approached
zero. The transit time approaching zero was offered as time dilation.

Both wrong. There was given no cause and effect reason for the mass
increase and time dilation. Time dilation was already indicated as not
existing due to the fact it created a reductio ad absurdom known as the
Twin Paradox. Such a condition is a wildly waving flag that something
is wrong with a theory and that it has to be reworked. Such was not
done.

Correct interpretation:

The longitudinal length of a moving system *appears* to contract due to
the measurement being made by the use of light which has an invariant
velocity of c. Einstein could have concluded that as the apparent
length of a moving system contracted, so would the velocity itself
undergo a foreshortening. This would result in the following: As the
velocity of a body approached infinity, the foreshortened *measured*
velocity would approach c -- the maximum velocity of the measuring
tool.

As a matter of fact, if one does the arithmetic, they will find that
the energy requirements, the momentum and the transit time of a body do
not fit the relative velocity but DO fit the corresponding actual
(Newtonian) velocity. Thus we see the parameters of the Newtonian
velocity in the company of the measured corresponding relative
velocity.

Then there is the general (mis)interpretation of the energy-momentum 4
vector equation. This equation is nothing more or less than the
combination of Einstein's equations for the energy and momentum of
moving *bodies* -- "bodies", not radiation. The general interpretation
of the equation, E^2 = (mc2)^2 + (pc)^2 is as follows: "If we set the m
in the right hand first term to zero, then we get E = pc which we know
is true. This shows that the mass of the photon is zero."

Wrong.

The first term is the square of mc^2. In case one forgets, mc^2 is REST
energy -- and the m is REST mass. Do we agree that the REST mass of the
photon is zero? Of course. A photon brought to rest (by absorption) is
no longer a photon -- so its REST mass is zero. The second RH term is
pc, the energy of a photon IN FLIGHT. The p is momentum - which we
know the photon in flight has.

Every equation for momentum contains MASS and motion. Therefore E = pc
states that the photon in flight has mass. When faced with that fact,
the poor souls who misinterpreted the equation try to maintain their
position by declaring a new physics whereby there exists momentum with
no mass. The problem is, they cannot substantiate that.

"When you can measure what you are speaking about and express it in
numbers, you know something about it." Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)
Dirk Van de moortel - 26 Apr 2006 22:51 GMT
> ON THE CO-DEPENDENCE OF TIME DILATION, SUPERLUMINAL VELOCITIES, AND
> RELATIVISTIC MASS
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> velocity, then *observed* velocity reduces with an increase in velocity
> of the moving frame.

Longitudinal length of an object in relative motion with respect to
you, is the difference between the distances of two points on the
object, measured simultaneously in your frame.
Since nothing is moving between the endpoints of the object
during some time interval, the act of dividing the difference between
these distances by a time interval is meaningless.

> Restated: The velocity of the moving frame is
> greater than the observed velocity. Thus we have two velocities, the
> observed velocity -- and the true velocity of the moving frame. The two
> velocities are Lorentz variant. That is true velocity times the Lorentz
> transform equals the observed velocity.

The distance of the origin of the moving frame is not a
longitudinal length of anything, since it is not the difference between
two fixed points on a moving object.
It seems that you really have no idea what you are talking about.

> Where V is the velocity of the moving frame, v the observed velocity,
> and R the Lorentz transform ---
>
> v ( 1- v^2/c^2) , V x R = v

It seems that you have a problem writing down a proper equation.
Have you ever read some kind of introduction to physics?

Dirk Vdm
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 01:22 GMT
DIRK VAN DE POODLE
Longitudinal length of an object in relative motion with respect to
you, is the difference between the distances of two points on the
object, measured simultaneously in your frame.
Since nothing is moving between the endpoints of the object
during some time interval, the act of dividing the difference between
these distances by a time interval is meaningless.

VERT
You're suffering from myopea. You just said that the *length* is the
"distance".You are agreeing with me and don't know it. Next, you are
saying that dividing the distance by time is meaningless*! I guess you
never learned the definition of velocity.  Pity.

> Restated: The velocity of the moving frame is
> greater than the observed velocity. Thus we have two velocities, the
> observed velocity -- and the true velocity of the moving frame. The two
> velocities are Lorentz variant. That is true velocity times the Lorentz
> transform equals the observed velocity.

V D Poodle
The distance of the origin of the moving frame is not a
longitudinal length of anything,

VERGON
Never said it was.

VDP
since it is not the difference between
two fixed points on a moving object.
It seems that you really have no idea what you are talking about.

VERGON
One of us doesn't --- hello.

> Where V is the velocity of the moving frame, v the observed velocity,
> and R the Lorentz transform ---

> v ( 1- v^2/c^2) , V x R = v

It seems that you have a problem writing down a proper equation.
Have you ever read some kind of introduction to physics?

VERGON
Learn to read. Notice the comma. The equation is  V x R = v.
Apparently you never had (or understood) an introduction to algebra.

You know, you are more intrested in knocking someone down than in
learnng something.
That's why you're so dumb.
Until you change --- if ever --- I'll not be wasting my time answering
your stupid posts.

 

Dirk Vdm
Bill Hobba - 27 Apr 2006 02:37 GMT
> DIRK VAN DE POODLE

I know your brain is probably in a poodle but in science we generally try
for a bit of exactitude rather than smart arise puns on peoples names.  All
you will get with an attitude like that is it returned - which is probably
what your really after anyway rather than understanding.

> Longitudinal length of an object in relative motion with respect to
> you, is the difference between the distances of two points on the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You're suffering from myopea. You just said that the *length* is the
> "distance".

That is not what he said.  Repeat comprehension 101 until you understand why
'the difference between the distances of two points on the object' is a
positive length - at least under the usual conventions.

Bill

> You are agreeing with me and don't know it. Next, you are
> saying that dividing the distance by time is meaningless*! I guess you
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Dirk Vdm
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 03:07 GMT
BILL
I know your brain is probably in a poodle but in science we generally
try
for a bit of exactitude rather than smart arise puns on peoples names.
All
you will get with an attitude like that is it returned - which is
probably
what your really after anyway rather than understanding.

VERGON
Of course I'm after understanding but all I get is mudled thinking
criticism and insults.
When someone insults me I give in return. What goes around comes
around.
And I might add, I am never the first to insult.

Anyone (like Alex) who treats me civally gets treated the same way --
whether they disagree with me or not.

> Longitudinal length of an object in relative motion with respect to
> you, is the difference between the distances of two points on the
> object, measured simultaneously in your frame.
> Since nothing is moving between the endpoints of the object
> during some time interval, the act of dividing the difference between
> these distances by a time interval is meaningless.

> VERT
> You're suffering from myopea. You just said that the *length* is the
> "distance".

BILL
That is not what he said.  Repeat comprehension 101 until you
understand why
'the difference between the distances of two points on the object' is a

positive length - at least under the usual conventions.

VERGON
Take your own advice. That IS what he said :   "Longitudinal length of
an object ..........
....................................................is the *distance*
of two points ...............................
.................................. ."

If your own cognitive abilities were up to snuff, you would have more
salient points to discuss rather than trivial desiderata.
Dirk Van de moortel - 27 Apr 2006 06:54 GMT
[reformatted]

> > Longitudinal length of an object in relative motion with respect to
> > you, is the difference between the distances of two points on the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> You're suffering from myopea. You just said that the *length* is the
> "distance".

I did not.

> You are agreeing with me

I don't

> and don't know it.

I still don't.

> Next, you are
> saying that dividing the distance by time is meaningless*! I guess you
> never learned the definition of velocity. Pity.

The distance of the moon divided by the time it takes to
drink a cup of coffee is not a velocity.
Your postulate is trivially falsified.

So your very first sentence here already demonstrates the fact that
you are dishonest arrogant ignorant retarded little twerp :-)
If you reply again [the proper way], I might consider looking at the
remainder of your indigestion. But don't hold your breath.

Dirk Vdm
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 13:35 GMT
| DIRK VAN DE POODLE

Dork isn't a poodle, he's got shorter legs.

    http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/trojan.htm

Androcles
Hexenmeister - 26 Apr 2006 22:55 GMT
| ON THE CO-DEPENDENCE OF TIME DILATION, SUPERLUMINAL VELOCITIES, AND
| RELATIVISTIC MASS
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| The special theory of relativity is a quintessential example of
| mathematical physics at work. There is no doubt as to its veracity

Ignorant fool. There is considerable doubt to its veracity.
Androcles
Dirk Van de moortel - 26 Apr 2006 22:57 GMT
[snip]

> Ignorant fool.

  http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras3.html
  http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras2.html
  http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras.html
  http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PythagoRescue.html

Dirk Vdm
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 11:35 GMT
| [snip]
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/classic.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/closingspeed.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/closingspeed2.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/trojan.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/human.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/zeroone.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/falsetrue.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/sloppy.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/badevents.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/inertialacc.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/insignificantgravity.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/PartialDerivative.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/mumble.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/stooges.htm
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 01:25 GMT
To Androcles:

Androcles
Ignorant fool. There is considerable doubt to its veracity.
Androcles

VERGON
Only by moronic kooks.
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 11:35 GMT
| To Androcles:
|
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| VERGON
| Only by moronic kooks.

I notice you snipped you own words. Ashamed of them?

Here they are:
The special theory of relativity is a quintessential example of
| mathematical physics at work. There is no doubt as to its veracity --  
Shithead Vert.

Now you admit there IS doubt, even by moronic kooks.
Hence you are proven to be a LYING Shithead Vert.

Androcles
AllYou! - 27 Apr 2006 13:59 GMT
> | To Androcles:
> |
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Androcles

Hmmmmmm, let's see.  The first thing you've done is to betray your
extreme fear of being proven wrong in public.  There are all sorts
of reasons for why you've got such a deep seeded fear, but I'll
speculate that because you also seem to issue meaningless commands
(I'll get to that below) so easily, it probably all stems from the
fact that either you were mercilessly humiliated as a child either by
your parents, or by the bullies at school who probably did things like
pants you in from of the girl you were sweet on.

This all seems to stem from your intense need to control your
environment.  This is an offshoot of your intense fear, but it
manifests itself in the need to prevent any further humiliations by
fantasizing that you have the ability to control what others will do.

And finally, your frequent use of the word *c.nt* in such a derogatory
contexts probably means that it's your mother who humiliated you so.
Either that, or instead of the bullies at school who did it, it was
really the girls.  How sad for you.

Anyway, the first thing I think you should do is
seek help quickly.  You see, it's just a matter of time before you run
into some circumstance or other wherein you'll be so humiliated and
you'll find yourself completely powerless to prevent it that you'll
snap and either do terrible damage to yourself, or to someone close
you.  But I might be wrong.  You just might go postal at complete
strangers.

In any event, get help quickly.  You're a mess.
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 17:57 GMT
Androcles is now also on my "no answer list". I can't waste my time on
miniscule mentalities with over inflated egos.
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 18:25 GMT
| Androcles is now also on my "no answer list". I can't waste my time on
| miniscule mentalities with over inflated egos.

Whoopee, another Smith, another Hammond!
I can't express my gratitude deeply enough, I'm really touched.
Pretty soon "Vert" will only have himself to write to... but then, he does
that already.

Androcles.
xxein@bellsouth.net - 27 Apr 2006 01:47 GMT
> ON THE CO-DEPENDENCE OF TIME DILATION, SUPERLUMINAL VELOCITIES, AND
> RELATIVISTIC MASS
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> other.
> ......... etc.

xxein:  A swing and a miss.  Your bat bends on its own and there is
nothing you can do about it except to find out why.
Spoonfed - 27 Apr 2006 04:38 GMT
Vert,

Before running all the way up to c, consider something along the lines
of 0.9c

If somehow you are able to watch as a space-ship 9 light years from
earth suddenly accelerates to .9c, and comes toward you.  How fast does
it appear to be moving?

(I mean by this, how long does it take between the time you see the
jets fire, and the time space ship land in front of you.)

Can we agree that it will take 9 years for the light from the jets to
reach us, and 10 years for the space ship to reach us, so between the
time you see the jets fire, and the time until the space ship lands in
front of you?

So altogether, we actually see it moving for only 1 year from a
distance of 9 light years away and we would say it appears to be moving
9 times the speed of light.

Now if we see this apparent speed of 9 times the speed of light, do we
agree that the space ship should also see us approaching at apparently
9 times the speed of light?

Now finally, we only see him traveling at 9 times the speed of light
during the last 1 year.  the space ship would see us approaching at 9
times the speed of light for the entire trip.  Do we agree that this
entire trip, at .9 times the speed of light must last longer than a
year?

He WAS 9 light years distant from earth, but now the earth apparently
approaches him at 9 times the speed of light for well over a year.  So
in total the earth will appear to move in from a much greater distance.
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 27 Apr 2006 05:13 GMT
Dear Spoonfed:

> Vert,
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> should also see us approaching at apparently
> 9 times the speed of light?

No.  The ship sees the Earth for the entire trip, approaching at
0.9c.  Because the Earth didn't fire its engines...

David A. Smith
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 17:50 GMT
David A. Smith

No.  The ship sees the Earth for the entire trip, approaching at
0.9c.  Because the Earth didn't fire its engines...

VERGON

.9c x 10 years = 9 light years

David, you are assuming the trip takes 10 years from the viewpoint of
the ship. Whatever happened to time dilation? The clock/calendar on the
ship would show a lot less than 10 years.
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 17:35 GMT
SPOONFED

Now if we see this apparent speed of 9 times the speed of light, do we
agree that the space ship should also see us approaching at apparently
9 times the speed of light?

Now finally, we only see him traveling at 9 times the speed of light
during the last 1 year.  the space ship would see us approaching at 9
times the speed of light for the entire trip.  Do we agree that this
entire trip, at .9 times the speed of light must last longer than a
year?

He WAS 9 light years distant from earth, but now the earth apparently
approaches him at 9 times the speed of light for well over a year.  So
in total the earth will appear to move in from a much greater distance.

VERGON

Now you see why the dual velocity theory works. The actual velocity of
the ship is
2.064742 c. Thus the trip of 9 light years will take (for the ship)
4.358899 years.
Therefore, the approach velocity of the earth is 2.064742c.

If you want the details on the dual velocity, go to
http://www.wbabin.net -- find the pull down "LIST OF AUTHORS" --- go to
Vertner Vergon and click. There you will find an article explaining the
Dual Velocity theory.

Regards
Vert
Spoonfed (www.spoonfedrelativity.com) - 28 Apr 2006 03:50 GMT
> SPOONFED
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> 4.358899 years.
> Therefore, the approach velocity of the earth is 2.064742c.

Well, we started with the actual relative speed being 0.9c, and the
apparent speed being 9c.  Now you say the actual relative speed is
2.06742c, which would be, as you say, reductio ad absurdum.  On the
other hand, I believe what you are saying is that the relative speed
according to the space ship is different to the relative speed
according to the earth.

The relative speed according to the earth is 0.9c and the relative
speed according to the space ship is 2.064742c

> If you want the details on the dual velocity, go to
> http://www.wbabin.net -- find the pull down "LIST OF AUTHORS" --- go to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Regards
> Vert

Here is an example from your article.
==================
"To calculate the Astronomer's observation of the outgoing trip, we
note the following: The
distance to far point is 1.732 light seconds. The velocity of the ship
to the astronomer is
the relativistic .866 c. Thus it will take two seconds for transit. But
Astronomer will not
observe that until light recording that event arrives at earth. This
will take 1.732 seconds.
Adding the 2 seconds and the 1.732 seconds yields the 3.732 seconds of
observation
(upward arrows).

Regarding the return trip: Even though the ship is traveling at a
(Newtonian) speed
greater than c, it does not surpass the light recording its journey.
Instead, the waves pile
up (condense) in front of it and are observed by Astronomer at the rate
of 3.732 times
norm. This phenomenon indicates that light can travel faster than c but
the manifestation
of that is an increased frequency (shorter wavelength) - with the
observation of c as the
velocity."
===================

I hope you don't mind if I repeat the experiment, but this time have
the astronomer fire a laser at t=0.268 seconds.  This pulse will fly
1.732 light seconds to strike the ship right at the same moment and
time as it is turning around.

Just as this pulse is arriving, he will also see the scene on earth has
only aged .268 seconds.  Now he has been traveling for 1 second, and he
has 1 more second to travel home.  And indeed, he will see 3.732
seconds worth of earth business in that one second.

So far, you're in total agreement with me.  And when you say the waves
pile up, I'm still in total agreement with you, but let me add one more
detail.

Just as the ship arrives at the turn-around point, another ship, coming
from the far end of the Shapley Concentration happens to be coming
along toward the earth at .866c.  These two ships are together for the
last second of the journey.  He sees the exact same 3.732 seconds pass
on earth, but he does not explain that the waves were suddenly just
piled up.  They've been that way all along.  And the earth has been
approaching at .866c all along, it only looks faster because of the
Doppler effect.

Apparent speed = Apparent distance / apparent time

Let apparent distance = 1 light second
apparent time = time for earth to cover distance - time for light to
cover distance
                     = apparent distance/actual relative speed - 1
                     =1/0.866 - 1

That should be right because I get an apparent speed of 6.46c.  Same as
earth would calculate: 1.732/(4-3.732)

Notice that immediately before the turnaround the ship from Shapley and
the ship from earth disagreed on the age and position of earth.  But as
soon as the ship from earth turns around, they both agree.

Vert, I think you are right as far as you go, but if you tie up a few
loose ends in your argument, you'll find out you've re-derived Lorentz
Transformation.
Spoonfed (www.spoonfedrelativity.com) - 28 Apr 2006 22:57 GMT
Test.
Spoonfed - 28 Apr 2006 23:04 GMT
xxein@bellsouth.net - 29 Apr 2006 01:53 GMT
> SPOONFED
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Regards
> Vert

xxein:  Missed again?
xxein@bellsouth.net - 29 Apr 2006 01:49 GMT
> Vert,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> distance of 9 light years away and we would say it appears to be moving
> 9 times the speed of light.

xxein:  FALSE!  We cannot create physics from mere math.  Instead, we
look at the problem and make sense of it (a coherent sense from which
to MAKE an applied math behave accordingly).

> Now if we see this apparent speed of 9 times the speed of light, do we
> agree that the space ship should also see us approaching at apparently
> 9 times the speed of light?

xxein:  FALSE!  If we know its original distance and the speed of
light, we KNOW that it only traveled at .9 c.

> Now finally, we only see him traveling at 9 times the speed of light
> during the last 1 year.  the space ship would see us approaching at 9
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> approaches him at 9 times the speed of light for well over a year.  So
> in total the earth will appear to move in from a much greater distance.

xxein:  You only observed the phenenoma for 1 yr.  That is all you got
to see.
Tom Roberts - 27 Apr 2006 14:21 GMT
> The special theory of relativity is a quintessential example of
> mathematical physics at work.

OK, though there certainly are better examples.

> There is no doubt as to its veracity or
> accomplishments but unfortunately it leaves one disoriented when
> trying
> to interpret its mathematical results in terms of every day
> experience.

Not really. But one does have to have an open mind and good
visualization skills.

    And it sure helps if one's every day experiences includes
    a particle accelerator (:-)).

> This has led to the philosophy that we should disregard what our
> senses
> dictate as reality.

This is complete nonsense. No sensible person would think that phenomena
we observe in our every day lives at the scales natural to humans should
hold in regimes of far different scales. Just a factor of ~100 times
smaller permits flies to walk on walls and ceilings -- there's no doubt
that a factor 100 trillion times smaller could have profound differences
from our every day lives.

And certainly _my_ senses do not "dictate [what is] reality" to me.
Perhaps you need to examine your personal worldview more carefully....

> In turn physics theory has gone awry, engaging in
> flights of fancy with no constraint as long as it is supported by
> esoteric mathematics.

More nonsense. Mathematics does not "support" physics, _experiments_ do.

> [... remainder mercifully omitted]

Tom Roberts
Vert - 27 Apr 2006 18:57 GMT
Thanks, Tom for your comments.

TOM ROBERTS
Vert wrote:

> The special theory of relativity is a quintessential example of
> mathematical physics at work.

OK, though there certainly are better examples.

VERT
Didn't say there weren't. What I am saying is that mathematics is what
pulled Einstein's rabbits out of the hat.  :-)

> There is no doubt as to its veracity or
> accomplishments but unfortunately it leaves one disoriented when
> trying
> to interpret its mathematical results in terms of every day
> experience.

Not really. But one does have to have an open mind and good
visualization skills.

    And it sure helps if one's every day experiences includes
    a particle accelerator (:-)).

> This has led to the philosophy that we should disregard what our
> senses
> dictate as reality.

This is complete nonsense. No sensible person would think that
phenomena
we observe in our every day lives at the scales natural to humans
should
hold in regimes of far different scales. Just a factor of ~100 times
smaller permits flies to walk on walls and ceilings -- there's no doubt

that a factor 100 trillion times smaller could have profound
differences
from our every day lives.

VERT
I agree with you. We cannot apply what we experience on the macro scale
to the micro scale.
However, your example of the fly is a poor one because it is strictly
macro. We know the fly is very light and that the stickum on its feet
easily overcomes gravity. What happens on the micro scale is another
matter.

But what I was referring to was the trouble people have in
understanding just why c is the limiting velocity of the universe, and
why time should slow down just because an object was traveling at high
velocity -- why mass should increase toward infinity as the velocity
approached c (the same for momentum and energy) -- and why length
should contract. These are all macro experiences and have nothing to do
with the nano scale.

I understand you are naturally influenced by being an accelerator man.
As such, you might be interested in a dissertation I wrote entitled "On
the Quantum as a Physical Entity". You can find it in the General
Science Journal on line.

TOM
And certainly _my_ senses do not "dictate [what is] reality" to me.
Perhaps you need to examine your personal worldview more carefully....

> In turn physics theory has gone awry, engaging in
> flights of fancy with no constraint as long as it is supported by
> esoteric mathematics.

More nonsense. Mathematics does not "support" physics, _experiments_
do.

VERT
What experiments support string theory? --- black hole theory? ---
multi dimentions theory?
How do you explain mass increase in an accelerator?

TOM
> [... remainder mercifully omitted]

VERT
Pity. There's an old saying, "He cut his nose off to spite his face."
You're the loser. You have dealt with trivia and IGNORED the meat of
the thesis.
Galileo's pope refused to look through Galileos telescope because he
already knew the truth (which he got from the bible) -- the earth is
the center of the universe.

Lots of luck.

Vert

Tom Roberts
Dirk Van de moortel - 27 Apr 2006 19:18 GMT
[snip]

> Pity. There's an old saying, "He cut his nose off to spite his face."
> You're the loser. You have dealt with trivia and IGNORED the meat of
> the thesis.

The meat of your "thesis" was eaten by your two *utterly*
stupid "postulates".

Dirk Vdm
Hexenmeister - 27 Apr 2006 21:00 GMT
| [snip]

Did he really? My my.. fancy saying [snip].
I would have said much more.
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/classic.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/closingspeed.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/closingspeed2.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/trojan.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/human.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/zeroone.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/falsetrue.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/sloppy.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/badevents.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/inertialacc.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/insignificantgravity.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/PartialDerivative.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/mumble.htm
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Dork/stooges.htm

Androcles
 
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