> Electro-magnetic forces alone are insufficient to explain the
> electronic structure of an atom. Photo-electro-magnetic forces must
> be considered.
Photo as in photon as in the quanta of EM? Your tautological insights are
staggering.
Bill
> Herve LeCornec has demonstrated that the square root of atomic
> ionization potential has a linear relationship to atomic number and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/
chemguy - 17 May 2006 19:29 GMT
Please explain your comment. Electrons absorb and emit photons as their
energy levels change. For an electron in any energy condition there is
a photo-emmissive force that combines with electromagnetic forces.
PD - 17 May 2006 20:50 GMT
> Please explain your comment. Electrons absorb and emit photons as their
> energy levels change. For an electron in any energy condition there is
> a photo-emmissive force that combines with electromagnetic forces.
What "photo-emmissive" force? What makes you think this force is
distinct from electromagnetic forces?
PD
chemguy - 19 May 2006 18:29 GMT
Photo-emissive power is associated with blackbody radiation as first
proposed by Plank. Photo-emissive force is associated with
photo-emissive power.
PD - 19 May 2006 19:16 GMT
> Photo-emissive power is associated with blackbody radiation as first
> proposed by Plank. Photo-emissive force is associated with
> photo-emissive power.
Photo-emissive power is just that: a power -- a time rate of energy
delivered. What makes you think that the force underlying that is
distinct from the electromagnetic interaction?
PD
chemguy - 19 May 2006 20:10 GMT
Very true.
Photonic emission can be separated into electric and magnetic
components.
The reason a distinction is made is that an energy change of an
electron takes place as an exchange of a photon. Two frames of
reference are required, one frame of reference for the electronic
charge moving within an electro-magnetic field of the atom (associated
with the nucleus and other electrons), and another frame of reference
for the potential exchange of a photon associated with the same
electron. The unit vectors of the first frame of reference (i, j, k)
are independent of the unit vectors of the second frame of reference
(I, J, K).
PD - 19 May 2006 22:38 GMT
> Very true.
> Photonic emission can be separated into electric and magnetic
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> are independent of the unit vectors of the second frame of reference
> (I, J, K).
I'm sorry, none of that made any sense whatsoever. Would you care to
try again, or do you want me to have a go?
PD
Hexenmeister - 20 May 2006 00:28 GMT
| > Very true.
| > Photonic emission can be separated into electric and magnetic
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
| I'm sorry, none of that made any sense whatsoever. Would you care to
| try again, or do you want me to have a go?
No physics content.
You are a boring lying c.nt.
Androcles
| PD
Bill Hobba - 18 May 2006 02:44 GMT
> Please explain your comment. Electrons absorb and emit photons as their
> energy levels change.
Sure.
> For an electron in any energy condition there is
> a photo-emmissive force that combines with electromagnetic forces.
Where did you get that idea from?
BTW my comment was merely an observation about your semantics. I am not
particularly interested in physical chemistry - although from what I do know
you seem a bit confused - the issues you raise look like non issues to me.
Bill
> Electro-magnetic forces alone are insufficient to explain the
> electronic structure of an atom. Photo-electro-magnetic forces must
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ionization potential has a linear relationship to atomic number and
> the number of electrons within an atom.
And a naive wave mechanics model says that the atomic ionization
potential is proportional to the square of the atomic number. Of
course, this doesn't match experiment exactly, because the experimental
values don't match this relationship (or LeComec's) precisely.
> This is generally true of
> all known elements. In contrast wave machanics can only account for
> the electronic structure of hydrogen (which is less than 1 percent
> of all known elements), this is a dismal failure masquarading as a
> success.
Actually, this is quite incorrect. Quantum mechanics is quite adept at
accounting for the electronic structure of any atom. Good heavens,
where have you been? Look up "computational chemistry".
> If the photo-electro-magnetic forces are considered, the Periodic
> Table of Elements can be arranged in 3D as a stepped pyramid
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/
A little behind the times there, chemguy.
PD
chemguy - 19 May 2006 18:39 GMT
Computational chemistry uses Perturbation Theory to explain why Wave
Mechanics does not work beyond Hydrogen for multi-electron systems.
Computational chemistry is "adept", wave mechanics is not. LeCornec
demonstrates that there is an underlying simple (nearly linear)
structure for all atoms and ions. Wave mechanics does not account for
this observation.
PD - 19 May 2006 19:22 GMT
> Computational chemistry uses Perturbation Theory
That's correct. "Perturbation Theory" is a power-series expansion of
wave mechanics.
> to explain why Wave
> Mechanics does not work beyond Hydrogen for multi-electron systems.
> Computational chemistry is "adept", wave mechanics is not. LeCornec
> demonstrates that there is an underlying simple (nearly linear)
> structure for all atoms and ions. Wave mechanics does not account for
> this observation.
Sure it does. You seem unaware of that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_potential
PD
chemguy - 19 May 2006 19:55 GMT
Wave mechanics stops dead at Helium.
I suggest you read the following article.
THE EVOLUTION OF THE PERIODIC SYSTEM
Scientific American, September 1998
Eric R. Scerri
PD - 19 May 2006 22:37 GMT
> Wave mechanics stops dead at Helium.
> I suggest you read the following article.
>
> THE EVOLUTION OF THE PERIODIC SYSTEM
> Scientific American, September 1998
> Eric R. Scerri
I suggest you stop reading popularizations and start reading some real
physics.
For pointers on the reading that would focus on the topic of concern,
refer to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartree-Fock
PD
Hexenmeister - 20 May 2006 00:28 GMT
| > Wave mechanics stops dead at Helium.
| > I suggest you read the following article.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| I suggest you stop reading popularizations and start reading some real
| physics.
No physics content.
You are a boring lying c.nt.
Androcles.
chemguy - 24 May 2006 19:38 GMT
The SWE cannot return energy eigenvalues for systems with more than one
electron, it stops dead at helium.
You should know this.
Bilge - 30 May 2006 13:37 GMT
chemguy:
>The SWE cannot return energy eigenvalues for systems with more than one
>electron, it stops dead at helium.
>You should know this.
Don't be silly. The hamiltonian for the helium atom is,
H = [(p_1)^2 + (p_2)^2]/2m - 2e^2 [(1/r_1) + (1/r_2)]
+ e^2/|\vec{r_1} - \vec{r_2}| + screening
+ spin-orit + spin-spin terms
You can most likely find it any basic quantum mechanics textbook,
with the screening, spin-orbit and spin-spin terms treated with
whatever level of sophistication was presumed of the audience for
which the book was intended.
Just because the solution to the differential equation cannot be
given in a simple closed form doesn't mean the there are no eigenvalues.
Furthermore, not knowing the prcise form of the potentials (such as
the screening term) does not invalidate the theory. If one required an
exact solution in closed form or some a priori clairvoyance as to the
form of the potentials, as criteria for correctness, newtonian physics
would have been dead in the water before newton published the principia.
Obviously, there are no real physical problems for which newton or anyone
since could have obtained solutions in closed form. If you think there
are, name one.
Basically, you need to look at an introductory quantum mechanics
textbook. One may obtain solutions of the above hamiltonian in a
rather straightforward way. First, find the ground state wavefunctions
neglecting the electron-electron interaction term (in which case, the
hamiltonian is separable), then treat the electron-electron interaction
and screening in perturbation theory.
chemguy - 31 May 2006 01:20 GMT
thank you for a sensible reply.