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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / June 2006



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Doppler effect derivation

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mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 19 Jun 2006 11:43 GMT
Comments are welcome!

http://redshift.vif.com/journal_archives.htm
Number 1 (January 2005)
Nizar Hamdan:
Derivation of the relativistic Doppler effect from the Lorentz force
47-61
"This paper demonstrates that calculation and interpretation of
the relativistic Doppler effect is possible using only the
Lorentz force and relativity theory. This method eliminates the
need for the Lorentz transformation and time dilation."

Marcel Luttgens
Sue... - 19 Jun 2006 12:02 GMT
> Comments are welcome!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marcel Luttgens

Quoting ~ page 13:
http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V12NO1PDF/V12N1HAM.PDF
<< (SRT) explains the Doppler shift for light as being caused by the
motion of the light source relative to the observer: the blue/red shift
is
caused by a change in space/ time due to that motion. So the Doppler
principle in (SRT) is intrinsically kinematic, described through
Maxwell's theory and (LT), but the lacking the intrinsic structure of
light. >>

Light doesn't have a structure.
http://nobelprize.org/physics/articles/ekspong/index.html

Light's emitters and absorbers *do* have a structure.
http://www.conformity.com/0102reflectionsfig3.gif
http://www.conformity.com/0102reflections.html

Simply observe the effect the *real* structures have
on nearfield wave impedance and the frequency/wavelength
converversions will work out correctly along the path without
conflict with observer dependent or constancy of speed
of light.
"Retarded potential"
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node50.html

Sue...
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 19 Jun 2006 12:25 GMT
> > Comments are welcome!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Light doesn't have a structure.
> http://nobelprize.org/physics/articles/ekspong/index.html

"the lacking the intrinsic structure of light" is rather cryptic, but
do you
reject the claim that
"(SRT) left out the important fact that the frequency shift through
motion is caused directly by the variation in energy [...] between
light and the observer.", and more generally, the views of the author?

Thank you anyhow,

Marcel Luttgens

> Light's emitters and absorbers *do* have a structure.
> http://www.conformity.com/0102reflectionsfig3.gif
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Sue...
Sue... - 19 Jun 2006 12:38 GMT
mluttg...@wanadoo.fr wrote:
> > > Comments are welcome!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Marcel Luttgens

Indeed I do reject that notion. Frequency has a relation with
causality. It is incorrect to use the complex term of energy
to hide a lack of rigour in accounting for each and every
tick of a clock.

Baseballs don't magically disapper between the pitcher and
catcher no matter how hard they are thrown or who is
running whichaway or whataway. They all can be accounted for.
The rate observed by the catcher might vary with the suggested
motions but clock ticks and baseballs don't magically vanish.

Sue...

> > Light's emitters and absorbers *do* have a structure.
> > http://www.conformity.com/0102reflectionsfig3.gif
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >
> > Sue...
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 19 Jun 2006 13:47 GMT
> mluttg...@wanadoo.fr wrote:
> > > > Comments are welcome!
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> to hide a lack of rigour in accounting for each and every
> tick of a clock.

When I posted this message, I was expecting a reaction from you,
because of your expertise in such domain.

Thank you again (not "anyhow" this time!),

Marcel Luttgens

> Baseballs don't magically disapper between the pitcher and
> catcher no matter how hard they are thrown or who is
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> > >
> > > Sue...
dda1 - 19 Jun 2006 14:25 GMT
> Comments are welcome!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marcel Luttgens

Nizar Hamdan has a lot of "sleigh of hands" like the one you are
quoting all published in fringe journals like Apeiron and Galilean
Electrdynamics. The trick is to find out where he cheats in his
"derivations" . Eithe way, he is not a relativity denier, he is just a
"twister"
Vert - 19 Jun 2006 15:57 GMT
> Comments are welcome!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marcel Luttgens

This is a bunch of disconnected garbage. Lorentz is not a force., etc.
Phineas T Puddleduck - 19 Jun 2006 15:59 GMT
> > Comments are welcome!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> This is a bunch of disconnected garbage. Lorentz is not a force., etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force

Signature

The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."

mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 19 Jun 2006 16:14 GMT
> > > Comments are welcome!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force

Does that mean that Nizar Hamdam has a point?

Marcel Luttgens

> --
> The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
> the odour of roses."
dda1 - 19 Jun 2006 16:45 GMT
> > > This is a bunch of disconnected garbage. Lorentz is not a force., etc.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Marcel Luttgens

No, it means that "dr." Nizar Hamdan generates worthless papers that
contain carefully hidden flaws.
Phineas T Puddleduck - 19 Jun 2006 19:56 GMT
> > > This is a bunch of disconnected garbage. Lorentz is not a force., etc.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Marcel Luttgens

Just pointing out there is a Lorentz force, thats all.

Signature

The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."

Sorcerer - 19 Jun 2006 18:17 GMT
| Comments are welcome!
|
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
|
| Marcel Luttgens

 Here's my comment:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Doppler/Doppler.htm

Androcles
Bilge - 23 Jun 2006 08:43 GMT
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr, still clueless:

>Comments are welcome!
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Lorentz force and relativity theory. This method eliminates the
>need for the Lorentz transformation and time dilation."

 That's pretty funny, marcel. According to your so-called derivation,
if one assumes that c is a constant in every frame, cleverly chooses
an arbitrary multiplicative favtor of u/c^2 and then assumes special
relativity so that ``The scalar constant [\gamma] can be fixed by
applying relativity theory...,'' one can obtain the same result otained
using the lorentz transforms. Why, imagine that! I never would have
guessed that was possible.

 Just one question. Why all the legerdemain? I mean, it seems like
a great deal of wasted effort to spend 15 pages deriving something
which requires assumimg special relativity plus additional several
more assumptions when you can derive the result in much more ovious
way in less than 1 page assuming only special relativity. What ever
gave you the idea that the lorentz transforms weren't involved? Precisely
what did you think the assumption that `c' is a constant means, or
the assumption of ``relativity theory,'' means? Just because the author
didn't seem to realize the connection, doesn't mean you have to
believe everything you read, just because it suits your preconceptions.

 The fact that it was published in apeiron ought to be a dead
give away. The people who publish in apeiron do so because they
can't publish those articles in journal that performs sanity checks
on submitted articles.
 
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