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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / July 2006



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P = m*V = (E/c,p) ?

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Peter Christensen - 13 Jul 2006 10:36 GMT
P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )

Does this always apply?

I just wonder, because I've seen the P (momentum 4-vector) defined in
both different ways. Maybe the relation m*V = (E/c,p) always holds, if
the momentum [3-vector] is defined as p = gamma*m*v [3-vector] and E =
gamma*m*c^2. Is this true?

Example: P = (E/c,p) = m*[gamma*c, gamma*v] = m*V

I know, that (E/c,p) makes sence for photons with m = 0, while m*V
really doesn't.

PC
my mother - 13 Jul 2006 19:15 GMT
> P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> PC

what is a 4 vector, a function a 4 parameters?

draw a 4 vector
Peter Christensen - 13 Jul 2006 23:38 GMT
> > P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> draw a 4 vector

Something very fundamental to know in relativity. In the name of the
newsgroup, maybe you've noticed.

Please try to draw an ordinary 3-vector on a piece of paper...

PC
my mother - 15 Jul 2006 16:52 GMT
> > > P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Something very fundamental to know in relativity. In the name of the
> newsgroup, maybe you've noticed.

yo fool

more fundamental than anythin is a vector

draw or explain a foken 4 vector projectef in
a 4d coordinat system

remember fool, orthogonal relationship

> Please try to draw an ordinary 3-vector on a piece of paper...

there are no problems with 3 vectors, yo foken moron

> PC
Peter Christensen - 18 Jul 2006 14:42 GMT
> there are no problems with 3 vectors, yo foken moron

Can't even spell...
Tom Roberts - 14 Jul 2006 02:56 GMT
> P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
> Does this always apply?

Yes, in SR. Note that your "p" is shorthand for 3 components, and there
is no gamma anywhere.

The 4-velocity V has components relative to coordinates {x^i} defined by:
    V^i = (d/d\tau) x^i    where \tau is the proper time of
                           the object.

The sometimes-seen equation p = m*gamma*v, for 3-vectors p and v, is not
an invariant equation and must be written in a specific inertial frame.
In particular, both p and v use _coordinate_time_  in their definition,
not the object's proper time (the change from coordinate to proper time
involves a factor of gamma in this case).

Tom Roberts
Peter Christensen - 15 Jul 2006 13:17 GMT
>> P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
>> Does this always apply?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the object's proper time (the change from coordinate to proper time
> involves a factor of gamma in this case).

Yes I agree, on spacetime, it's known that:

c^2*(d\tau)^2 = c^2*(dt)^2 - (dx)^2

When using v=dx/dt, it's easy to show that dt = gamma*d\tau. -But it's hard
to understand the difference between t (coordinate time) and \tau (proper
time) intuitively, I think. The advantage with proper time (\tau) is that it
is an invariant. That's why the R 4-vector (position) and the P 4-vector
(momentum) can be differentiated with respect to \tau and still be
4-vectors: V (velocity), A (acceleration) and F (force) respectively.

Thanks for the reply.

PC
my mother - 15 Jul 2006 16:55 GMT
> >> P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
> >> Does this always apply?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> (momentum) can be differentiated with respect to \tau and still be
> 4-vectors: V (velocity), A (acceleration) and F (force) respectively.

crap

> Thanks for the reply.
>
> PC
Peter Christensen - 16 Jul 2006 14:11 GMT
> crap

That's what your posting is.

PC
The TimeLord - 18 Jul 2006 07:16 GMT
I've read a couple of responses and most are very good.
However, I thought I'd add a couple of my thoughts for
completeness.

> P [4-vector] = m*V [4-vector] = (E/c,p [3-vector] )
>
> Does this always apply?

Mostly when m/=0. For the photon, since m=0, there is a
little bit of a different approach. We know the 4-wave
vector is

k^i = [2*Pi/lambda; k (3-vector)]

Then p^i = h/(2*Pi) * k^i. This is then consistent with
the observed relation E=p*c with E=h*c/lambda and p=h/lambda.

> I just wonder, because I've seen the P (momentum 4-vector) defined in both
> different ways. Maybe the relation m*V = (E/c,p) always holds, if the
> momentum [3-vector] is defined as p = gamma*m*v [3-vector] and E =
> gamma*m*c^2. Is this true?

Firstly it is only true in flat space, because how it is
derived. Secondly, you have to be careful how you use
P=m*V, since m=0 and p/=0 for photons.

> Example: P = (E/c,p) = m*[gamma*c, gamma*v] = m*V
>
> I know, that (E/c,p) makes sence for photons with m = 0, while m*V really
> doesn't.

Bingo! Note that since v=c for photons, gamma is undefined
for photons in free space (vacuum) as a quantity.

I usually define the above as Vproper = d/dtau * X
then Vproper = gamma * V = dt/dtau * d/dt * X
thus P = m * Vproper = m * gamma * V
This way things tend to remind me that I need to be more
careful since m*gamma is like zero*infinity for photons.
This is where a lot of older books introduce m*gamma as
relativistic mass. However, today it is more common to
think of Vproper=gamma*V and P=m*Vproper instead of
mrel=gamma*m and P=mrel*V. The modern way tends to not
introduce all the logical errors that the older way did.

Signature

// The TimeLord says:
// Pogo 2.0 = We have met the aliens, and they are us!

Peter Christensen - 25 Jul 2006 12:32 GMT
> I've read a couple of responses and most are very good.
> However, I thought I'd add a couple of my thoughts for
> completeness.

The only serious responce was from Tom Roberts, I think.

>> I just wonder, because I've seen the P (momentum 4-vector) defined in
>> both
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> derived. Secondly, you have to be careful how you use
> P=m*V, since m=0 and p/=0 for photons.

I pointed out that already...

>> Example: P = (E/c,p) = m*[gamma*c, gamma*v] = m*V
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Bingo! Note that since v=c for photons, gamma is undefined
> for photons in free space (vacuum) as a quantity.

It looks a bit like a severe problem, but both E and p are well defined for
photons, so it really isn't. For photon's P = (E/c, p_x, p_y, p_z) and there
are no problems with this definition.

I just read, that's there is another 4-vector to remember. That's the
current 4-vector: (rho, j_x, j_y, j_z), where 'rho' is a charge, and j is
the usual 3-vector for current. I wonder why gamma isn't included like in
the velocity 4-vector..?

PC
__________________________________
Worth to remember: (:-)
In your own frame things are greatest (Length
Contraction) and fastest (Time Dilation)...
 
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