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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / July 2006



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SR  F.O.P.I

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Peri of Pera - 19 Jul 2006 04:06 GMT
SR F.O.P.I.

Two men on the planet Superstition wondered about the nature of light.
How was it transmitted from its sources? To answer their curiosity,
they used a device called interferometer in an experiment which later
was called MMX, the Magic Mystery Experiment. The interferometer had
two arms of equal length at a right angle to each other. Light was sent
along both arms, reflected by a mirror at the end of each arm and
returned to a common point where it was assumed the two light beams
would interfere.  It should prove that all space was filled with
something like invisible honey, a substance that vibrated as light
passed through it.

The two men set up the experiment in their laboratory, positioning one
of the arms in a direction parallel to the motion of the planet through
space and the other arm perpendicularly to it. The light travelling
over the parallel arm was believed to take a longer time than the light
travelling over the perpendicular arm. This was because the mirror at
the end of the parallel arm moved away from the light that was chasing
it while the mirror at the end of the perpendicular arm remained at the
same distance. When the experiment was conducted, the light took the
same time to arrive at the ends of both arms. No honey! Everybody who
had knowledge of these things was upset. Some wise old men then said if
the honey didn't work, it didn't exist. They came up with a clever
ruse to explain the absence of the honey. It was too bizarre to be true
but those who supported it were appointed to important posts and given
honours. The wise men said the length of the parallel arm had shortened
'in the direction of motion' through space and proportionally to
the speed of the interferometer to equalise with the length of the
other arm. This was called contraction. Likewise, time affecting the
device had to slow down. This was called time dilation. Contraction
allowed light to cover different distances in the same time because the
longer distance always reduced automatically to the smaller dimension.
This was called the principle of the constancy of light. In this way,
the wise men pronounced that contraction explained the null result of
the magic mystery experiment.

Contraction however required the interferometer to move strictly in a
straight line at all times to produce the exact amount of contraction
necessary to equalise the length of the two arms. But stationary
locations on earth are subject to five different motions through space:
rotation of the earth, planetary motion, stellar motion, galactic
motion and universe expansion motion. If the equipment is indeed
subject to contraction, the effect of all five actual motions on the
dimensions of the equipment will be unpredictable. This fact was
ignored by the wise men. They stubbornly insisted 'the direction of
motion' is invariably a straight line and contraction applies only to
the parallel arm in the exact amount.

Furthermore, decreeing that only contraction of the parallel arm would
explain the null result of MMX was arbitrary. The same result could be
achieved if instead of contraction of the parallel arm an expansion of
the perpendicular arm had been stipulated. In either case, the length
of the two arms would be equal and the time of the light to travel over
the two arms would be the same as indeed the experiment had shown,
albeit for different reasons. If the formula 'sqrt(1-vv/cc)'
applied to the parallel arm were to be replaced by the formula
'sqrt(1+vv/cc)' and applied to the perpendicular arm, the
experiment would have shown the same result but with different
implications. Instead of parallel arm contraction, time dilation and
mass increase, perpendicular arm expansion, time contraction and mass
decrease would have ensued. But all this was ignored by the wise men.
They didn't even think of it.

Furthermore, contraction and time dilation dictated that the speed of
light had to be constant under any condition. As an example, starting
from the same point in the universe and moving in the same direction,
two spaceships travelling at 50000m/sec and 100000m/sec respectively
would be overtaken at the same time by a light beam sent after them
some time later. This paradox was explained that 'at the same time'
did not mean 'at the same time', using circular arguments.

The findings of the magic mystery experiment were applied to every
object in the universe. The length and clock rate of every object
depended on its speed. The observed dimensions and times however never
changed if the observer had the same speed as the observed object
because his measuring rods and clocks would also change with the new
speed. If however the object was measured by an observer travelling at
a different speed, this observer would measure the dimensions of and on
the other object according to his own rods and the clock rate according
to his own clocks.

Anybody doubting the decrees of the wise old men was excluded from
Sanctus Religio, the Faith Of Pure Illogic, SR F.O.P.I.  However, there
remained a small group of individuals who had the capacity to think
clearly and freely. They asked questions about a physical object, the
cube. The dimensions of the cube were 100m x 100m x 100m on
Superstition. In their minds, the thinkers sent it to a star in the
universe as a spaceship. As it travelled away, its length and measuring
sticks according to SR F.O.P.I. would contract and its time and clocks
would slow down. As an example, a distance of one meter measured on the
cube on Superstition would be reduced to 90cm and a second to 900
milliseconds as it sped away at a certain speed.

What were the real dimensions of the cube in flight in this example?
Observers on the cube (the cubists) measured them to be 100x100x100m.
Observers on Superstition (the superstitious) would insist on
90x100x100m. The cubists could see a light signal sent from a corner of
the cube to the opposite corner parallel to the direction of motion
arriving at the same time as one sent to the opposite corner on a
perpendicular path. According to SR F.O.P.I., anyone on Superstition
would make the same observation despite the length of the cube having
been reduced to 90m while width and height remained at 100m. How could
the speed of light be constant under all conditions and yet cover
different distances in the same time? Well, the dogma of the constancy
of light demanded it and the facts had to conform to it. Again,
circular arguments, spurious assertions and vague references to
experiments which at best were inconclusive, at worst misrepresented
were used to prove it.

The thinkers asked how long were the measuring rods on the cube as it
moved through space, 90cm or 1m? If aligned in the direction of motion,
were they 90cm long but 1m long if aligned perpendicular to the motion?
At any other alignment between the parallel and perpendicular axis
would they be differently sized, according to the angle? What if the
speed changed? Would the size of a rod not depend on this speed as well
as on the alignment towards the parallel axis? How many differently
calibrated rods were necessary to measure everything on the cube at any
time and under any condition? Or was there only one rod which changed
invisibly in real length as it was moved around inside the cube or the
cube changed speed? What was the force that caused the change and how
was it controlled?

Time dilation was just as contentious as contraction. On Superstition,
a second was exactly one second long. However, at the given speed in
our example, a second anywhere inside the moving cube, as measured from
Superstition, was only .9 seconds long. While a meter could be anything
from .9m to 1m, a second was always reduced to .9 seconds everywhere on
the cube. The shortened cube second was sufficient for light to cover
the contracted cube distance of 90m parallel to the motion but not long
enough to traverse the unchanged perpendicular distance of 100m. Again,
the constancy principle had been violated. It was pointed out to the SR
F.O.P.I. gurus. They mumbled something about world time lines, time
incongruities and similar esoterics.

The wise men had also pronounced that the absolute speed of any object
in the universe couldn't be told. While the speed of the cube was
known relative to planet Superstition, the absolute speed was unknown.
It could be less or more than the relative speed. However, the rods and
clocks aboard would only shrink or vary according to the relative
speed, ignoring completely the absolute speed.

The wise men furthermore declared that no observer had preference over
another. So every object with a different speed from an observer would
be seen as having different seconds and different non-perpendicular
meters. Perpendicular meters however remained always the same even
though this fact was only implied; never considered or mentioned.
Generally, it appears that a multitude, nay infinity of measuring rods
and clocks is required on every object in the universe to allow
measuring any dimension on every other object to which it has a
different speed and angular attitude.

The thinkers asked another question: If the cube approached
Superstition instead of speeding away from it, would meters and seconds
increase? The followers of SR F.O.P.I. did not know for sure but said
it made no difference. They decided the thinkers asked too many
questions and hastened to appoint Kommissars to enforce political
correctness in science. Enquiry, discussion and progress were inhibited
but the stability of believe systems remained safe for a long time.

Peter Riedt
dda1 - 19 Jul 2006 05:51 GMT
<snipped due to extreme idiocy>

Peter , aren't you tired of people sh.tting on you? Even after you die,
we'll still piss on your grave (at least for a while) . f.cking cretin!
Peri of Pera - 19 Jul 2006 05:59 GMT
> <snipped due to extreme idiocy>
>
> Peter , aren't you tired of people sh.tting on you? Even after you die,
> we'll still piss on your grave (at least for a while) . f.cking cretin!

dda1, you would fail the examination test to be a Kommissar's
apprentice.

Peter Riedt
dda1 - 19 Jul 2006 06:37 GMT
> > <snipped due to extreme idiocy>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Peter Riedt
Dirk Van de moortel - 19 Jul 2006 08:48 GMT
> SR F.O.P.I.

The imbecile troll is back:
  http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/RiedtTroll.html

Dirk Vdm
Peri of Pera - 21 Jul 2006 10:18 GMT
> > SR F.O.P.I.
>
> The imbecile troll is back:
>    http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/RiedtTroll.html
>
> Dirk Vdm

and Kfc Dirk is lurking in the shadows as always.

Peter Riedt
Harry - 19 Jul 2006 11:14 GMT
> SR F.O.P.I.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> something like invisible honey, a substance that vibrated as light
> passed through it.

[SNIP]

Happily we don't live on that planet, so that all that nonsense never
happened. :-)

Harald
PD - 19 Jul 2006 22:31 GMT
> SR F.O.P.I.

Since this is fairly laughable, I will laugh at it.
Note I will not take the opportunity to correct these misconceptions in
detail. There is no point in teaching a pig to sing.

> Two men on the planet Superstition wondered about the nature of light.
> How was it transmitted from its sources? To answer their curiosity,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the honey didn't work, it didn't exist. They came up with a clever
> ruse to explain the absence of the honey. It was too bizarre to be true

Actually, it's not that bizarre at all. Especially since nature seems
to work that way. I don't know why some would deign to say that *we*
dictate how nature behaves, and not the other way around.

> but those who supported it were appointed to important posts and given
> honours. The wise men said the length of the parallel arm had shortened
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> subject to contraction, the effect of all five actual motions on the
> dimensions of the equipment will be unpredictable.

Not unpredictable at all. In fact, what one can say pretty reliably is
that four out of the five motions do not change appreciably during the
interval of the experiment, and so that their effect on the result is
simple and cancellable. I don't know why you think tracking five
motions makes the motion over a short interval intractably complex.

> This fact was
> ignored by the wise men.

Factually incorrect. It was accounted for by the experimenters.

> They stubbornly insisted 'the direction of
> motion' is invariably a straight line and contraction applies only to
> the parallel arm in the exact amount.

That also is incorrect. The analysis that you've read makes that
simplification, but the full analysis does not require that.

> Furthermore, decreeing that only contraction of the parallel arm would
> explain the null result of MMX was arbitrary. The same result could be
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> decrease would have ensued. But all this was ignored by the wise men.
> They didn't even think of it.

That is also incorrect. First of all, following the prescription above
would *not* result in the same predicted effect, as a little bit of
algebra will show. Secondly, the formula with the minus sign was not ad
hoc but was *derived* from two basic assumptions, that the laws of
physics are the same in any inertial reference frame and that the speed
of light is the same in any inertial reference frame. There is no
comparable set of simple assumptions from which you can *derive* the
formula with the plus sign.

> Furthermore, contraction and time dilation dictated that the speed of
> light had to be constant under any condition.

Actually, this is backwards, too. Maxwell's laws of electrodynamics
dictate that the speed of light had to be constant under any condition,
and length contraction and time dilation are *conclusions* from that
statement, not the other way around.

> As an example, starting
> from the same point in the universe and moving in the same direction,
> two spaceships travelling at 50000m/sec and 100000m/sec respectively
> would be overtaken at the same time by a light beam sent after them
> some time later.

It certainly does not mean that. There is no reference frame in which
that observation would occur. Your misunderstanding of what SR says is
not a critique of SR.

> This paradox was explained that 'at the same time'
> did not mean 'at the same time', using circular arguments.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Anybody doubting the decrees of the wise old men was excluded from
> Sanctus Religio, the Faith Of Pure Illogic, SR F.O.P.I.

Actually, that's incorrect, too. Relativity's introduction was met with
decades of skepticism and extremely careful experimental tests of the
predictions of SR. Every single one of those tests was aimed to show SR
wrong if it was wrong. When SR was not wrong, then and only then did SR
begin to gain acceptance.

> However, there
> remained a small group of individuals who had the capacity to think
> clearly and freely.

And to ignore the experimental results of the previous skeptics who had
done the work to test it.

> They asked questions about a physical object, the
> cube. The dimensions of the cube were 100m x 100m x 100m on
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the speed of light be constant under all conditions and yet cover
> different distances in the same time?

Same time? Who said anything about same time? The two clock rates are
different, remember?

> Well, the dogma of the constancy
> of light demanded it and the facts had to conform to it. Again,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> At any other alignment between the parallel and perpendicular axis
> would they be differently sized, according to the angle?

Yes.

>What if the
> speed changed?

Yes.

>Would the size of a rod not depend on this speed as well
> as on the alignment towards the parallel axis?

Yes. I see you are only familiar with the most basic form of the
Lorentz transform and do not know how it is done in three dimensions.

> How many differently
> calibrated rods were necessary to measure everything on the cube at any
> time and under any condition?

Three.

>Or was there only one rod which changed
> invisibly in real length

Real length? What do you mean by real length?

> as it was moved around inside the cube or the
> cube changed speed? What was the force that caused the change and how
> was it controlled?

What force? Nothing physically acted on the rod to change its length.
Length is not an intrinsic property of a rod. It is inherently and
observer-dependent property, just the way momentum and kinetic energy
are.

> Time dilation was just as contentious as contraction. On Superstition,
> a second was exactly one second long. However, at the given speed in
> our example, a second anywhere inside the moving cube, as measured from
> Superstition, was only .9 seconds long. While a meter could be anything
> from .9m to 1m, a second was always reduced to .9 seconds everywhere on
> the cube.

That is incorrect. The time interval between two events can be anything
between 0.9s and 1s. You apparently don't know how the Lorentz
transforms work at all.

> The shortened cube second was sufficient for light to cover
> the contracted cube distance of 90m parallel to the motion but not long
> enough to traverse the unchanged perpendicular distance of 100m.

Again, that's because you don't understand the Lorentz transforms.

> Again,
> the constancy principle had been violated. It was pointed out to the SR
> F.O.P.I. gurus. They mumbled something about world time lines, time
> incongruities and similar esoterics.

Just because you don't understand what they said does not mean it was
mumbled. It might help if you took your hands off your ears.

> The wise men had also pronounced that the absolute speed of any object
> in the universe couldn't be told. While the speed of the cube was
> known relative to planet Superstition, the absolute speed was unknown.

That's correct.

> It could be less or more than the relative speed.

No, stronger than that. There IS no absolute speed.

> However, the rods and
> clocks aboard would only shrink or vary according to the relative
> speed, ignoring completely the absolute speed.

That's correct. There IS no absolute speed.

> The wise men furthermore declared that no observer had preference over
> another. So every object with a different speed from an observer would
> be seen as having different seconds and different non-perpendicular
> meters.

Right.

> Perpendicular meters however remained always the same even
> though this fact was only implied; never considered or mentioned.

Sure it is, explicitly considered and mentioned. Perhaps not in the
little that you've read. Perhaps you should read a little more.

> Generally, it appears that a multitude, nay infinity of measuring rods
> and clocks is required on every object in the universe to allow
> measuring any dimension on every other object to which it has a
> different speed and angular attitude.

No, just three.
Tell me something. If you wanted to find the distance from your home
town to six others, one at 13 degrees east of north, one at 53 degrees
east of north, one at 17 degrees east of south, one at eight degrees
west of south, one at eighty-one degrees west of north, and one at 12
degrees west of north, how many rulers would you need to measure those
distances?

> The thinkers asked another question: If the cube approached
> Superstition instead of speeding away from it, would meters and seconds
> increase? The followers of SR F.O.P.I. did not know for sure

Sure they do.

> but said
> it made no difference. They decided the thinkers asked too many
> questions and hastened to appoint Kommissars to enforce political
> correctness in science. Enquiry, discussion and progress were inhibited
> but the stability of believe systems remained safe for a long time.

PD
Peri of Pera - 20 Jul 2006 08:22 GMT
> > SR F.O.P.I.
>
[quoted text clipped - 290 lines]
>
> PD

Pd, thank you for using arguments rather than invective to reply to SR
F.O.P.I.
Some of your arguments are quite good but not all of them.

Peter Riedt
PD - 20 Jul 2006 12:55 GMT
> Pd, thank you for using arguments rather than invective to reply to SR
> F.O.P.I.
> Some of your arguments are quite good but not all of them.
>
> Peter Riedt

There's something I want to be sure you understand. I did not attempt
to make solid arguments. I told you that at the outset. Truth in
physics is not determined by how compelling the argument is.

There is an enormous myth that Einstein established the truth of
relativity by means of argument and thought experiment. That is deeply
and fundamentally wrong. Einstein used thought experiments merely to
explain more fully what he thought was correct. The correctness of what
he thought was determined *solely* on the basis of testing with
experiment. This is how physics is done. An idea is proposed to explain
some phenomenon, and the explanation (which is quite often not obvious
and nonintuitive) is expected to explicitly predict other phenomena. If
checking on those phenomena shows that the explanation predicted them
correctly, then we take the explanation to be correct. The
intuitiveness of the explanation or the strength of the argument have
NOTHING to do with the truth determined by actually checking against
nature.

The best thing you can do for your understanding of relativity is to
re-read whatever you have read, and instead of worrying about whether
you understand or believe the arguments that are made, concentrate on
understanding precisely what experimental predictions are made by this
theory and then go look up what was actually observed in nature.

PD
Peri of Pera - 20 Jul 2006 08:24 GMT
> > SR F.O.P.I.
>
[quoted text clipped - 290 lines]
>
> PD

Pd, thank you for using arguments rather than invective to reply to SR
F.O.P.I.
Some of your arguments are quite good but not all of them.

Peter Riedt
Harry - 20 Jul 2006 12:27 GMT
SNIP
> > If the equipment is indeed
> > subject to contraction, the effect of all five actual motions on the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> simple and cancellable. I don't know why you think tracking five
> motions makes the motion over a short interval intractably complex.

Of course limited complexity doesn't mean unpredictable; but their effects
on what was expected to be measured turns out to be more complex and rather
different from what M&M assumed, as determined in more thorough analyses -
and it took one century before such complex analyses were done.
In particular, a "drift" is to be expected on top of a nearly (but not
quite) sinusoidal signal. Most analyses of the past neglected that fact (as
it turned out, the interval of the experiment was too long to fully neglect
those effects).

Harald
Peri of Pera - 22 Jul 2006 06:25 GMT
> SNIP
> > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Harald

Harald, as an example, if the parallel arm is pointing at the
three-dimensional rectangular coordinates x=10, y=15 and z=12.5 at the
time the MM experiment is conducted, the movement of the whole
apparatus, being subject to the five motions of the earth, could be in
the direction of an infinite number of other points in space. To assume
that the attitude of the parallel arm and the motion thru space is in
parallel is ludicrous. And if the alignment is not in parallel, why
should only the parallel arm contract and only by the exact amount
necessary to equalise the length of both arms?

In other words: There is an infinite number of space points. The
probability of  the parallel arm, being arbitrarily aligned, moving
parallel to the motion of the interferometer towards the same space
point while the motion of the earth and the apparatus thru space is
subject to five compounded movements of unknown magnitude and direction
is zero.

Peter Riedt
Harry - 24 Jul 2006 08:47 GMT
> > SNIP
> > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> apparatus, being subject to the five motions of the earth, could be in
> the direction of an infinite number of other points in space.

The apparatus as a whole moves in one single direction at one point in
time...

> To assume
> that the attitude of the parallel arm and the motion thru space is in
> parallel is ludicrous.

Hmm... nobody assumes that. Apparently ou confused a calculation example
with a claim!

> And if the alignment is not in parallel, why
> should only the parallel arm contract and only by the exact amount
> necessary to equalise the length of both arms?

No. Nobody ever claimed that. You have mistaken a Donald Duck version for
the real one.
The real argument is that (under certain assumptions) for different
directions of motion, the return time for the different light paths differs.
The extremes are with one or the other arm parallel to motion.

Please try to find a serious discussion of the subject first (or read M&M's
paper, it's on the web), before discussing it.

Harald

> In other words: There is an infinite number of space points. The
> probability of  the parallel arm, being arbitrarily aligned, moving
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Peter Riedt
Peri of Pera - 25 Jul 2006 09:04 GMT
> > > SNIP
> > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> The apparatus as a whole moves in one single direction at one point in
> time...

That is entirely correct. Nobody suggests that it moves in different
directions. It is physically impossible.

> > To assume
> > that the attitude of the parallel arm and the motion thru space is in
> > parallel is ludicrous.
>
> Hmm... nobody assumes that. Apparently ou confused a calculation example
> with a claim!

The contraction theory of Lorentz states that contraction is in the
direction of motion of the apparatus but this direction is unknown and
cannot be accepted as along the length of the parallel arm.

> > And if the alignment is not in parallel, why
> > should only the parallel arm contract and only by the exact amount
> > necessary to equalise the length of both arms?
>
> No. Nobody ever claimed that. You have mistaken a Donald Duck version for
> the real one.

The Donald Duck version is the one presented in the text books.

> The real argument is that (under certain assumptions) for different
> directions of motion, the return time for the different light paths differs.
> The extremes are with one or the other arm parallel to motion.

If contraction does apply, it must differ because the five motions of
the earth, if the attitude of the parallel arm is changed, will produce
a different outcome. The real reason for the null result of the
experiment however has nothing to do with contraction. Contraction is
an untenable unscientific explanation.

> Please try to find a serious discussion of the subject first (or read M&M's
> paper, it's on the web), before discussing it.

I have read it many times but will read it again. My contention however
is not with the experiment but with the explanation for the null
result. The real reason for the null result is a very simple one. Once
the contraction conjecture was accepted and set in concrete, all real
advance in this field has stopped and mumbo jumbo reigns supreme.

Peter Riedt

> Harald
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > Peter Riedt
harry - 25 Jul 2006 11:45 GMT
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> direction of motion of the apparatus but this direction is unknown and
> cannot be accepted as along the length of the parallel arm.

Exactly - and that's already elaborated on in M&M's paper.

> > > And if the alignment is not in parallel, why
> > > should only the parallel arm contract and only by the exact amount
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The Donald Duck version is the one presented in the text books.

Perhaps you misunderstood it...

> > The real argument is that (under certain assumptions) for different
> > directions of motion, the return time for the different light paths differs.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> experiment however has nothing to do with contraction. Contraction is
> an untenable unscientific explanation.

The argument of M&M assumed "absolute velocity", as well as that
dimensions are unaffected by it. From that followed the prediction that
a signal should be measured (with a little luck), depending on the
instantaneous orientation. Contraction is a result of the laws of
electrodynamics, which obey the PoR. The real *reason* for the PoR is
open for arguments (and what is the "real reason" for conservation of
momentum and energy?).

> > Please try to find a serious discussion of the subject first (or read M&M's
> > paper, it's on the web), before discussing it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Peter Riedt

There's a lot of mumbo-jumbo going on, notably by people who confuse
philosophy with physics. But the contraction conjecture only became
accepted as part of a succesful theory that correctly predicted the
outcome of numerous otherwise seemingly unrelated experiments, such as
with particle accelerators and atomic clocks.

Harald
Peri of Pera - 26 Jul 2006 05:45 GMT
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> Harald

Harald, your reply is good in general terms but does not answer the
fallacy of contraction. My argument is that the parallel arm of the
interferometer in MMX is called 'parallel arm' because it is
supposed to be aligned parallel to the motion of the equipment thru
space. What evidence do you have that the supposition is correct,
considering that the real alignment is determined by the five different
motions of the earth in space? Any references to other experiments is
but a diversion from the topic under discussion.

Peter Riedt
Peri of Pera - 26 Jul 2006 05:48 GMT
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> Harald

Harald, your reply is good in general terms but does not answer the
fallacy of contraction. My argument is that the parallel arm of the
interferometer in MMX is called 'parallel arm' because it is
supposed to be aligned parallel to the motion of the equipment thru
space. What evidence do you have that the supposition is correct,
considering that the real alignment is determined by the five different
motions of the earth in space? Any references to other experiments is
but a diversion from the topic under discussion.

Peter Riedt
Harry - 26 Jul 2006 11:08 GMT
> > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
>
> Peter Riedt

Peter, it's very simple: your claim is incorrect. None of the arms is called
"parallel arm" in the real experiment.
Please read M&M's paper again, and see for yourself. Which arm in fig.5 is
claimed to be the "parallel arm"? ;-)

Harald
Peri of Pera - 29 Jul 2006 05:18 GMT
> > > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>
> Harald

Harald, I have no beef with Michelson and Morley, only with the Lorentz
contraction theory as I have said before. It is absolutely correct that
the original experiment does not place any significance on the parallel
arm other than it being aligned in the direction of the movement of the
earth to catch the 'ether-wind'. The 'parallel arm' concept
came into being when Larmour, Fitzgerald and Lorentz explained the null
result of MMX as being due to the contraction of the parallel arm in
the direction of motion and proportional to its speed.

Max Born in his book 'Einstein's Theory of Relativity' (Methuan
1924) writes in Chapter 15, The Contraction Hypothesis (of Lorentz):
"..the time taken by a light ray to travel to and fro along a
distance l differs according to whether the ray travels parallel or
perpendicular to the earth's motion.... If we now assume that the arm
of the interferometer which is directed parallel to the earth's
motion is shortened in the ratio sqrt(1-beta*beta):1, then time t1
(parallel arm) would be reduced to time t2 (perpendicular arm)."

This is in essence the Lorentz contraction theory. Einstein came to the
same conclusion but claimed he derived it independently. The real
author however is Woldemar Voigt who published it in 1887 (Uber das
Doppler'sche Princip, Nachr. Ges. Wiss. Goettingen). Voigt's
version has validity as it is applied to the Doppler principle of sound
and light. It is relevant in terms of frequency whereas the
contractionists applied his formulas to support the isotropy of light
which was first established by Maxwell's electro-dynamic formulas and
later became the central postulate in AE's theory of relativity. What
did I want to prove? That contraction has nothing to do with the null
result of MMX (refer to my previous arguments in SR F.O.P.I. and other
posts).

Peter Riedt
Peri of Pera - 29 Jul 2006 05:21 GMT
> > > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > > > If the equipment is indeed
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>
> Harald

Harald, I have no beef with Michelson and Morley, only with the Lorentz
contraction theory as I have said before. It is absolutely correct that
the original experiment does not place any significance on the parallel
arm other than it being aligned in the direction of the movement of the
earth to catch the 'ether-wind'. The 'parallel arm' concept
came into being when Larmour, Fitzgerald and Lorentz explained the null
result of MMX as being due to the contraction of the parallel arm in
the direction of motion and proportional to its speed.

Max Born in his book 'Einstein's Theory of Relativity' (Methuan
1924) writes in Chapter 15, The Contraction Hypothesis (of Lorentz):
"..the time taken by a light ray to travel to and fro along a
distance l differs according to whether the ray travels parallel or
perpendicular to the earth's motion.... If we now assume that the arm
of the interferometer which is directed parallel to the earth's
motion is shortened in the ratio sqrt(1-beta*beta):1, then time t1
(parallel arm) would be reduced to time t2 (perpendicular arm)."

This is in essence the Lorentz contraction theory. Einstein came to the
same conclusion but claimed he derived it independently. The real
author however is Woldemar Voigt who published it in 1887 (Uber das
Doppler'sche Princip, Nachr. Ges. Wiss. Goettingen). Voigt's
version has validity as it is applied to the Doppler principle of sound
and light. It is relevant in terms of frequency whereas the
contractionists applied his formulas to support the isotropy of light
which was first established by Maxwell's electro-dynamic formulas and
later became the central postulate in AE's theory of relativity. What
did I want to prove? That contraction has nothing to do with the null
result of MMX (refer to my previous arguments in SR F.O.P.I. and other
posts).

Peter Riedt
 
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