SR fundamental contradiction
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mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 27 Sep 2006 21:44 GMT SR fundamental contradiction ------------------------------------------
Luttgens:
Let x = ct. Then x' = g(x - vt), where gamma = 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2), becomes x' = g(c-v)t What represents the length (c-v)t? Is that length "dilated" by g?
Van de Moortel:
Consider the event E on the light signal with x = c t for some chosen value of t. Then c t - v t is the distance between the origin of S' (the 'moving observer') and the light signal, as seen at time t in the S-frame (the 'stationary frame'), and, by the way, so c - v is by definition the closing velocity between the two.
For this event E, as seen in S', the light signal has covered the distance x' = c t' = g (c - v) t This is a distance of the event E in the S' frame.
Now imagine a stick with this particular length x' = g (c-v) t at rest in the S' frame. What is the length of such a stick in the S-frame? If you apply length contraction, you find that this length would be x' / g = (c - v) t in the S frame.
Luttgens:
Any object (stick) measures shorter in terms of a frame relative to which it is moving with velocity v that it does as measured in a frame relative to which it is at rest, the ratio of shortening being sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). This is a relation between measurements referred to different frames.
If a stick of length x' = g(c-v)t is at rest in the S' frame, it is moving at v relative to the frame S. So, measured in S, its length is contracted by 1/g and becomes x = g(c-v)t * 1/g = (c-v)t. This corresponds to Van de Moortel's reasoning, which is circular. Indeed, x' = g(c-v)t has been obtained *by applying the LT* to x = (c-v)t, when S' was considered as moving relative to S, and thus relative to the stick. No wonder that one gets back x = (c-v)t when S is afterwards considered as moving wrt S'.
One has instead to consider a stick of length x = (c-v)t at rest in the frame S. Relative to the frame S', such stick is moving at v, hence its length, measured in S', is shortened by 1/g wrt its length measured in S. Thus, x' = (c-v)t / g.
But *according to the LT*, x' = (c-v)t * g !
Such contradiction demonstrates the falseness of the Lorentz transformation, falseness whose origin lies in the postulate that when x = ct, x' = ct'.
Without such postulate, the LT become
x' = (c-v)t / g t' = t / g
and the stick of length (c-v)t at rest in S is indeed shortened by sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) in S'.
Derivation of the correct transformation: ----------------------------------------
Let's consider two frames of reference, S and S', each in uniform translatory motion relative to the other, the velocity of S' relative to S being v.
Basis relations:
x' = ax + bt t' = ex + kt
At the origin of S', x' = 0 and x = vt. Hence, 0 = (av+b)t, whence b = -av
The basis relations are now
(1) x' = a(x - vt) (2) t' = ex + kt
Now, let's suppose that a light signal, starting from the coincident
origins of frames S and S' at t = t' = 0, travels toward positive x. After a time t, it will be at x = ct + vt, and also at x' = ct'
Substituting these values of x and x' in relations (1) and (2), and eliminating t and t', one gets
(3) a - ec - ev - k = 0
If the signal travels toward negative x, x = -ct + vt and x' = -ct'
Substituting these values of x and x' in relations (1) and (2), and eliminating t and t', one gets
(4) a + ec - ev - k = 0
From (3) and (4), one gets e = 0
With e = 0, relations (3) or (4) reduce to a = k
Hence, relations (1) and (2) become
(1) x' = k (x - vt) (2) t' = k t
Now, a light signal follow the y' axis. Relatively to S, it travels obliquely, for, while the signal goes a distance ct, the y'-axis advances a distance x = vt. Thus c^2t^2 = v^2t^2 + y^2, whence y = sqrt(c^2 - v^2) * t. But, also, y' = ct' = c * k * t.
Equating y' to y, one gets k = sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
The transforms obtained without the *bold* Einstein's postulate that the speed of light is the same in all frames are thus
(5) x' = sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) * (x - vt) = (x - vt) / g (6) t' = sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) * t = t / g,
(g corresponds to Einstein's gamma).
Transform (5) straightforwardly tells us that any body measures shorter in terms of a frame relative to which it is moving with speed v than it does as measured in a frame relative to which it is at rest.
Transform (6) implies that when two physical systems are in uniform relative translation at speed v, the effects produced by system A on system B are modified just as if all natural processes on A were slowed down in the ratio sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2). (i.e., the so-called time "dilation").
Those transforms, contrary to Einstein's LT, don't allow to claim that simultaneity is relative (i.e., that events that are considered to be simultaneous in one reference frame are not simultaneous in another reference frame moving with respect to the first, cf. Wikipedia).
Marcel Luttgens
actionintegral@yahoo.com - 27 Sep 2006 21:56 GMT mluttg...@wanadoo.fr wrote:
> SR fundamental contradiction > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Marcel Luttgens (c-v)t is the length I perceive between the moving guy and the photon. That length is not dilated by g in my frame.
actionintegral@yahoo.com - 27 Sep 2006 21:56 GMT mluttg...@wanadoo.fr wrote:
> SR fundamental contradiction > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Marcel Luttgens (c-v)t is the length I perceive between the moving guy and the photon. That length is not dilated by g in my frame.
Dirk Van de moortel - 27 Sep 2006 22:30 GMT > SR fundamental contradiction > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > relative to which it is at rest, the ratio of shortening being > sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). which equals 1/g just like I explained.
> This is a relation between measurements referred to different frames. > > If a stick of length x' = g(c-v)t is at rest in the S' frame, > it is moving at v relative to the frame S. So, measured in S, its > length is contracted by 1/g and becomes x = g(c-v)t * 1/g = (c-v)t. yes
> This corresponds to Van de Moortel's reasoning, which is circular. Marcel calls the bleeding obvious "circular".
> Indeed, x' = g(c-v)t has been obtained *by applying the LT* to > x = (c-v)t, when S' was considered as moving relative to S, and thus > relative to the stick. No wonder that one gets back x = (c-v)t > when S is afterwards considered as moving wrt S'. Indeed no wonder. The transformation is consistent with length contraction. Do we have a breaktrough here? Has Marcel's Precious Penny dropped?
> One has instead to consider a stick of length x = (c-v)t at rest > in the frame S. Relative to the frame S', such stick is moving [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > transformation, falseness whose origin lies in the postulate > that when x = ct, x' = ct'. You had a light signal going at c and an object going at v in some frame S and you wondered "What represents the length (c-v)t?" I gave you a possible physical object, namely one with length g (c-v) t at rest in S', that can have this value (c-v) t as its length in the S-frame. So your question was answered.
Now you imagine another possible physical object, namely one with lenght (c-v) t at rest in S, which has of course lenght 1/g (c-v) t in frame S', according to the same rules.
Since we are talking about two different objects, there is no contradiction. Quite on the contrary ;-)
You are suffering from your original syndrome again: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Stuff/MarcelAtSchool.gif See a doctor about it. Trust me.
Dirk Vdm
rambus2005@yahoo.com - 28 Sep 2006 01:42 GMT > > SR fundamental contradiction > > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Way to go, Dirk
Marcel needs a good kick in the pants now and then.
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 29 Sep 2006 14:12 GMT > > SR fundamental contradiction > > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > Since we are talking about two different objects, there is no > contradiction. Quite on the contrary ;-) Of course, we are talking about two different objects, but the one you used demonstrates the falseness of SR, there is no doubt about that. Quite on the contrary ;-)
You wrote:
"Now imagine a stick with this particular length x' = g (c-v) t at rest in the S' frame. What is the length of such a stick in the S-frame? If you apply length contraction, you find that this length would be x' / g = (c - v) t in the S frame."
Where does the length of the stick come from, if not from the LT x' = g(c-v)t ?
Hence, you implicitely recognize that the length x = (c-v)t is *dilated* in the S'-frame. Indeed, applying length contraction by 1/g, you find back x = (c-v)t in the S-frame. You are a parroting guru, who doesn't even understand the meaning of the equations with which he is trying to defend SR. Otherwise, you would have realized the falseness of SR, which, via the LT x' = g (c-v) t, predicts a length *dilation* instead of an expected length *contraction*.
You should put this demonstration of your stupidity into your immortal fumbles.
Marcel Luttgens
> You are suffering from your original syndrome again: > http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Stuff/MarcelAtSchool.gif > See a doctor about it. Trust me. > > Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 29 Sep 2006 17:24 GMT >> > SR fundamental contradiction >> > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > Where does the length of the stick come from, if not from > the LT x' = g(c-v)t ? Hey, retard, when I tell you to imagine a stick of length 5, do you ask where 5 comes from? Yes, that figures. Okay, I'll tell you a secret: it comes out of thin air. How is that?
> Hence, you implicitely recognize that the length x = (c-v)t > is *dilated* in the S'-frame. No, I don't. I take a value g (c-v) t out of your thin air. That is what a sentence like "Now imagine a stick with this particular length x' = g (c-v) t at rest in the S' frame." means.
Marcel, you are TOOOOOO stupid for this. Really. You should be embarrassed, but I guess that is one of those feelings that autistic imbeciles can't have. Bad luck.
> Indeed, applying length contraction > by 1/g, you find back x = (c-v)t in the S-frame. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You should put this demonstration of your stupidity into your > immortal fumbles. The demonstration of yours is right here: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Fumblamental.html
Dirk Vdm
> Marcel Luttgens > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Dirk Vdm mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 30 Sep 2006 11:37 GMT > >> > SR fundamental contradiction > >> > ------------------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > Yes, that figures. Okay, I'll tell you a secret: it comes out of thin air. > How is that? You said:
"For this event E, as seen in S', the light signal has covered the distance x' = c t' = g (c - v) t This is a distance of the event E in the S' frame.
Now imagine a stick with this particular length x' = g (c-v) t at rest in the S' frame."
And now, you claim that its length comes out of thin air!
You are a stupid liar!
Marcel Luttgens
> > Hence, you implicitely recognize that the length x = (c-v)t > > is *dilated* in the S'-frame. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >> > >> Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 30 Sep 2006 11:58 GMT [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility]
>> > Where does the length of the stick come from, if not from >> > the LT x' = g(c-v)t ? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > And now, you claim that its length comes out of thin air! Again, you forgot my opening line: | Consider the event E on the light signal with x = c t for some | chosen value of t. "For some chosen value of t"... that's your thin air.
> You are a stupid liar! I'm sorry, but you are too stupid to be qualified to know whether someone is lying to you or not. That is quite Amusing :-)
Dirk Vdm
Sue... - 30 Sep 2006 18:19 GMT << That is quite Amusing :-) >>
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rgs/alice-VII.html
Pay your debts... ...then blabber with a clean conscience.
Abstract Einstein addressed the twin paradox in special relativity in a relatively unknown, unusual and rarely cited paper written in 1918, in the form of a dialogue between a critic and a relativist. Contrary to most textbook versions of the resolution, Einstein admitted that the special relativistic time dilation was symmetric for the twins, and he had to invoke, asymmetrically, the general relativistic gravitational time dilation during the brief periods of acceleration to justify the asymmetrical aging. Notably, Einstein did not use any argument related to simultaneity or Doppler shift in his analysis. I discuss Einstein's resolution and several conceptual issues that arise. It is concluded that Einstein's resolution using gravitational time dilation suffers from logical and physical flaws, and gives incorrect answers in a general setting. The counter examples imply the need to reconsider many issues related to the comparison of transported clocks. The failure of the accepted views and resolutions is traced to the fact that the special relativity principle formulated originally for physics in empty space is not valid in the matter-filled universe.
C. S. Unnikrishnan Gravitation Group, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Homi Bhabha Road, Mumbai 400 005, India http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/dec252005/2009.pdf -----
Sue...
Pay Dennis McCarthy c/o USNO
> Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 30 Sep 2006 20:02 GMT > << That is quite Amusing :-) >> Isn't it, Dennis?
Dirk Vdm
G. L. Bradford - 01 Oct 2006 03:59 GMT > << That is quite Amusing :-) >> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > principle formulated originally for physics in empty > space is not valid in the matter-filled universe. But it is valid, though with a twist. 1) Wavelength. 2) Frequency. 3) Speed of light constant : 1) Imaginary space (wavelength). 2) Imaginary time (frequency). 3) Speed of light constant.
This is all that Special Relativity's observer is ever really dealing in, whether space is empty space or matter-filled universe. Imaginary space, imaginary time (wavelengths, frequencies, and the speed of light constant).
> Sue...
>> Dirk Vdm GLB
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 01 Oct 2006 09:46 GMT > [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > someone is lying to you or not. > That is quite Amusing :-) Of course, one can choose any value for t. What counts is the formula x' = g (c-v) t, which means that the distance x = (c-v)t measured in the S-frame is *dilated* by g in the S'-frame, whereas it should be *contracted* by 1/g. All your sophistry cannot hide the inherent contradiction of SR.
Marcel Luttgens
> Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 01 Oct 2006 09:53 GMT >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > measured in the S-frame is *dilated* by g in the S'-frame, whereas > it should be *contracted* by 1/g. No, Marcel, it does not. the formula x' = g (c-v) t is not what counts. What counts is the meanings of the variables. What counts is that you never understood them and you never will. You invested too heavily in failing to understand, remember? http://perso.orange.fr/mluttgens/
Dirk Vdm
> All your sophistry cannot hide the inherent contradiction of SR. > > Marcel Luttgens > >> Dirk Vdm mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 01 Oct 2006 22:26 GMT > >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] > >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > will. You invested too heavily in failing to understand, remember? > http://perso.orange.fr/mluttgens/ The meaning of the variables is clear to everybody, and should be clear, even to you. The reader has only to refer to what you wrote:
"Now imagine a stick with this particular length x' = g (c-v) t at rest in the S' frame. What is the length of such a stick in the S-frame? If you apply length contraction, you find that this length would be x' / g = (c - v) t in the S frame."
Where does the length x' = g (c-v) t of the stick come from, if not from the LT x' = g(c-v)t, that transformed the length x = (c-v)t of the same stick measured in the S-frame ?
Hence, you implicitely recognize that the length x = (c-v)t measured in the S-frame is *dilated* in the S'-frame. Indeed, applying length contraction by 1/g to the length x' = g (c-v) t at rest in the S'-frame, you find back x = (c-v)t in the S-frame.
Your quibbling and sophistry will not mask the falseness of the Einsteinian LT, which predicts a length *dilation* instead of an expected length *contraction*. The correct transform is x' = (c-v)t/g, not x' = (c-v)t*g.
Marcel Luttgens
> Dirk Vdm > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > >> Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 01 Oct 2006 22:38 GMT >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] >> >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > The meaning of the variables is clear to everybody, and should be > clear, even to you. Alas, clearly not clear to you ;-) http://perso.orange.fr/mluttgens/LTfalse.htm http://perso.orange.fr/mluttgens/twinpdx1.htm http://perso.orange.fr/mluttgens/mmx.htm and http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LuttRel.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/DidntUseSR.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SpeedV.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/NegativeCrap.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/ApplyDerivation.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SRSymbols.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/CorrectRelations.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SRLuttgens.html
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 02 Oct 2006 13:15 GMT > >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Van de Moortel wrote in http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Fumblamental.html
"Consider the event E on the light signal with x = c t for some chosen value of t. Then c t - v t is the distance between the origin of S' (the 'moving observer') and the light signal, as seen at time t in the S-frame (the 'stationary frame'), and, by the way, so c - v is by definition the closing velocity between the two.
For this event E, as seen in S', the light signal has covered the distance x' = c t' = g (c - v) t This is a distance of the event E in the S' frame."
Let's imagine a stick with length x = (c-v) t = ct - vt at rest in the S frame.
Logically, the length of the stick corresponds to the distance between two points fixed in S, which are occupied by the ends of the stick simultaneously, i.e. at the same time t.
The coordinates of those two points in the S-frame are:
x2 = ct (the light signal, as seen at time t in the S-frame) and x1 = vt (the origin of S', as seen at time t).
In S', the corresponding coordinates are, according to the LT:
x2' = ct' = g (c - v) t and x1' = 0.
Hence the length of the stick in S' is given by x2' - x1' = g (c - v) t.
Instead of being contracted by 1/g in the 'moving frame', the stick is dilated by g! Leading to a false result, the LT is necessarily false.
Marcel Luttgens
Dirk Van de moortel - 02 Oct 2006 18:03 GMT >> >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > Hence the length of the stick in S' is given by > x2' - x1' = g (c - v) t. No. Length of a moving stick must be measured by taking the distances to the end points simultaneously. The events (t,x1) and (t,x2) are not simultanous in frame S':
{ x1' = g ( x1 - v t ) = g ( v t - v t ) = 0 { t1' = g ( t - v x1 /c^2) = g ( t - v v t / c^2 ) = t / g
{ x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t { t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) = t sqrt(1-v/c) / sqrt(1+v/c)
Noone (in his right mind) would call x2' - x1' the length of the stick, since x1' and x2' are distances at *different* times in the S'-frame, as you can see.
I really don't know how many times this has been explained to you.
> Instead of being contracted by 1/g in the 'moving frame', the > stick is dilated by g! > Leading to a false result, the LT is necessarily false. Your understanding of it certainly is quite false ;-)
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 03 Oct 2006 13:37 GMT > >> >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] > >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > since x1' and x2' are distances at *different* times in the S'-frame, > as you can see. In your right mind, what is the length of the stick in the S'-frame, if not g (c - v) t ? You should of course demonstrate your solution. Notice that if you find any value different from (c-v)t/g, the Lt is false. And don't try to escape by telling me that SR has no solution.
Marcel Luttgens
> I really don't know how many times this has been explained > to you. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 03 Oct 2006 17:25 GMT >> >> >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > not > g (c - v) t ? (c-v) t / g
> You should of course demonstrate your solution. > Notice that if you find any value different from (c-v)t/g, the > Lt is false. And don't try to escape by telling me that SR has no > solution. Sigh. So your stick has length in the S-frame = dx = (c-v) t, with some chosen value for t. You want t = 5? You get t = 5.
Since the stick is at rest in S, the end-points can be measured at any time, so dt for the measuring events doesn't matter. Since the stick is moving in S', the end-points must be taken simultaneously in S, so the measuring events must have dt' = 0. Transformation: { dx' = g ( dx - v dt ) [1] { dt' = g ( dt - v dx / c^2 ) [2] or { dx = g ( dx' + v dt' ) [3] { dt = g ( dt' + v dx' / c^2 ) [4]
You want a connection between dx' and dx, where dt' is known to be 0, so the simplest way to go about is with equation [3], giving dx = g dx' and thus dx' = dx / g
So the length in S' is (c-v) t / g. So I don't find a value different from (c-v) t / g.
A stick has a length L in its rest frame. When measured from a moving frame, that stick has length L / g. What can be so difficult about that?
The fact that you have to get this spelled out in such trivial detail, shows that - after at least 10 years - you *still* haven't understood the meaning of the variables. Aren't you *embarrassed* by that? You should be.
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 03 Oct 2006 22:55 GMT > >> >> >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] > >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 149 lines] > When measured from a moving frame, that stick has length L / g. > What can be so difficult about that? Your demonstration leads to the correct result, i.e. the length in S' is (c-v) t / g, but from the *ad hoc* postulate that "as dt for the measuring events doesn't matter, the measuring events must have dt' = 0."
Remember that you wrote yesterday: "x1' and x2' are distances at *different* times in the S'-frame":
"No. Length of a moving stick must be measured by taking the distances to the end points simultaneously. The events (t,x1) and (t,x2) are not simultanous in frame S':
{ x1' = g ( x1 - v t ) = g ( v t - v t ) = 0 { t1' = g ( t - v x1 /c^2) = g ( t - v v t / c^2 ) = t / g
{ x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t { t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) { = t sqrt(1-v/c) / sqrt(1+v/c)
Noone (in his right mind) would call x2' - x1' the length of the stick,
since x1' and x2' are distances at *different* times in the S'-frame, as you can see."
You should know (after how many years?) that the value of x' is always zero. It is wholly independent of any value of t or t'.
On the other side, x2' = g(c-v)t at t2' = gt(1 - v/c). But to t2' = gt(1 - v/c) corresponds t = t2' / g(1 - v/c), and x1' is also independent of that specific value of t.
Iow, the value of x1' remains 0 at t2', hence the fact that the events (t,x1) and (t,x2) are not simultaneous in frame S' is irrelevant, and x2' - x1' = g (c - v) t is the length of the stick in the S'-frame.
Thus, according to the Einsteinian LT, the stick is *dilated*, instead of *contracted*, in the S'-frame.
But if you use the correct LT x' = (x-vt) / g t' = t /g you get the expected length contraction.
Marcel Luttgens
> The fact that you have to get this spelled out in such trivial > detail, shows that - after at least 10 years - you *still* > haven't understood the meaning of the variables. > Aren't you *embarrassed* by that? You should be. > > Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 03 Oct 2006 23:53 GMT >> >> >> >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] >> >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 157 lines] > Remember that you wrote yesterday: "x1' and x2' are distances > at *different* times in the S'-frame": Yes, because YOU TOOK THEM at the same time t in S: >> >> > x2 = c t (the light signal, as seen at time t in the S-frame) and >> >> > x1 = v t (the origin of S', as seen at time t).
If two events are simultaneous in S then they are not so in S'. If two events are simultaneous in S' then they are not so in S. Big deal.
If you want to measure the length of a moving stick, you must measure the distances to the end-points at the same time. If you want to measure the length of a non-moving stick, you can measure the distances to the end-points at any time, since the end-points of a non-moving stick aren't going anywhere. Big deal. Too bad that you don't understand this :;-)
> "No. Length of a moving stick must be measured by taking the > distances to the end points simultaneously. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You should know (after how many years?) that the value of x' is > always zero. It is wholly independent of any value of t or t'. yes, that was what I wrote. This on the other hand, I didn't write:
> On the other side, x2' = g(c-v)t at t2' = gt(1 - v/c). > But to t2' = gt(1 - v/c) corresponds t = t2' / g(1 - v/c), and > x1' is also independent of that specific value of t. You are babbling.
I gave it on a platter: For your chosen value of t and two events simultaneous in S with resp. x2 = c t and x1 = v t you get { x1' = g ( x1 - v t ) = g ( v t - v t ) = 0 { t1' = g ( t - v x1 /c^2) = g ( t - v v t / c^2 ) = t / g and { x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t { t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) = t sqrt(1-v/c) / sqrt(1+v/c)
So x2' is *not* independent on the chosen value of t, so x1' cannot be like you say "*also* independent" of t. Stop babbling. You haven't got a clue, Marcel.
> Iow, the value of x1' remains 0 at t2', hence the fact that > the events (t,x1) and (t,x2) are not simultaneous in frame S' > is irrelevant, and x2' - x1' = g (c - v) t is the length of > the stick in the S'-frame. You have NO IDEA about events. You have NO IDEA about the meaning of the variables. You just don't know what you are babbling about.
> Thus, according to the Einsteinian LT, the stick is *dilated*, > instead of *contracted*, in the S'-frame. No. I proved to you that the length of a moving stick is its proper lenght divided by gamma, i.e. *contracted*. This has been shown to school kids since a *century*, but I guess you are too stupid to understand that.
If you decide to measure the front and the rear of a moving train at different times and then call the difference of those distances the *dilated length* of the train, by all means be my guest and entertain us some more.
> But if you use the correct LT > x' = (x-vt) / g > t' = t /g > you get the expected length contraction. Marcel, you must be the Ultimate Imbecile ;-)
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 04 Oct 2006 11:54 GMT > >> >> >> >> >> [snip repetitive demonstrations of your imbecility] > >> >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 245 lines] > > Dirk Vdm You are so brainwashed by SR that you cannot think logically anymore. In fact, you have become a crackpot.
Yes, by applying the LT's, one get
x1' = g ( x1 - v t ) = g ( v t - v t ) = 0 t1' = g ( t - v x1 /c^2) = g ( t - v v t / c^2 ) = t / g
which can be written
x1' = gt(v-v) = gt * 0 t1' = t/g
or
x1' = g^2 t1' * 0
Only a crackpot would deny that the value of x1' (=0) is independent of t, or t1', or any other time at which one of the end of the stick is measured in S'.
Otoh,
x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) = t sqrt(1-v/c)
Notice that you made a stupid error, t2' is not t sqrt(1-v/c), but t sqrt [(1-v/c)/(1+v/c)] !
One can also write
t2' = gt (c-v) / c, thus t = c t2' / g (c-v)
Hence, x2' = g (c-v) t = c t2', the second end of the stick being measured at a time t2'.
But at t2', x1', the first end of the stick, still measure 0.
If you deny this, you are a crackpot squared.
So, the length of the stick in the S'-frame is given by x2' - x1' = g (c-v) t - 0 = g (c-v) t, or = c t2' - 0 = c t2'
The length is thus *dilated* according to the Einsteinian LT.
You wrote:
"If you decide to measure the front and the rear of a moving train at different times and then call the difference of those distances the *dilated length* of the train, by all means be my guest and entertain us some more."
This shows that you don't even understand the problem. You are merely babbling. The correct analogy is that of a car keeping the same position after any time interval and another car moving away from the first. After some time interval, the distance between the two cars is of course increased, not reduced. I guess you are too stupid to understand that.
Marcel Luttgens
Zoe - 05 Oct 2006 19:47 GMT Didn't notice this post yesterday - too big for my regular news server.
[snip]
>> Marcel, you must be the Ultimate Imbecile ;-) >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > of t, or t1', or any other time at which one of the end of the stick > is measured in S'.
:-)
> Otoh, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Notice that you made a stupid error, t2' is not t sqrt(1-v/c), > but t sqrt [(1-v/c)/(1+v/c)] ! I wrote { x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t { t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) = t sqrt(1-v/c) / sqrt(1+v/c) You have to look beyond the place where you break the lines apart. What a malicious little twerp you are. I have nothing to add to the fact that you are no doubt one of the most disgusting and stupid imbeciles on the planet, so by all means, continue to entertain us and try not to die too soon.
Dirk Vdm
Dirk Van de moortel - 05 Oct 2006 19:51 GMT sorry Zoe, for having used your system ;-P
Dirk Vdm
Zoe - 05 Oct 2006 19:55 GMT > sorry Zoe, for having used your system ;-P
> Dirk Vdm Geen probleem. Volgende keer naam aanpassen.
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 06 Oct 2006 14:00 GMT > Didn't notice this post yesterday - too big for my regular news server. > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > You have to look beyond the place where you break the lines apart. > What a malicious little twerp you are. Sorry, I overlooked the break. But you are nevertheless a crackpot, as you are unable to realize that x' is always zero. I repeat my last post, as it was difficult to find:
You are so brainwashed by SR that you cannot think logically anymore. In fact, you have become a crackpot.
Yes, by applying the LT's, one get
x1' = g ( x1 - v t ) = g ( v t - v t ) = 0 t1' = g ( t - v x1 /c^2) = g ( t - v v t / c^2 ) = t / g
which can be written
x1' = gt(v-v) = gt * 0 t1' = t/g
or
x1' = g^2 t1' * 0
Only a crackpot would deny that the value of x1' (=0) is independent of t, or t1', or any other time at which one of the end of the stick is measured in S'.
Otoh,
x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) = t sqrt(1-v/c)
One can also write
t2' = gt (c-v) / c, thus t = c t2' / g (c-v)
Hence, x2' = g (c-v) t = c t2', the second end of the stick being measured at a time t2'.
But at t2', x1', the first end of the stick, still measure 0.
If you deny this, you are a crackpot squared.
So, the length of the stick in the S'-frame is given by x2' - x1' = g (c-v) t - 0 = g (c-v) t, or = c t2' - 0 = c t2'
The length is thus *dilated* according to the Einsteinian LT.
Marcel Luttgens
> I have nothing to add to the fact that you are no doubt one of the > most disgusting and stupid imbeciles on the planet, so by all means, > continue to entertain us and try not to die too soon. > > Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 06 Oct 2006 16:43 GMT <mluttgens@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:1159959259.942562.269560@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[with more time and on my own system and ISP now]
> Dirk Van de moortel wrote: [snip]
>> Marcel, you must be the Ultimate Imbecile ;-) >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > of t, or t1', or any other time at which one of the end of the stick > is measured in S'. I said: | "So x2' is *not* independent on the chosen value of t, so x1' | cannot be like you say "*also* independent" of t." I did not object to the independence. I objected to your usage of the word *also* in your sentence | > On the other side, x2' = g(c-v)t at t2' = gt(1 - v/c). | > But to t2' = gt(1 - v/c) corresponds t = t2' / g(1 - v/c), and | > x1' is also independent of that specific value of t. You have to learn to read what you write and to properly express yourself.
> Otoh, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Notice that you made a stupid error, t2' is not t sqrt(1-v/c), > but t sqrt [(1-v/c)/(1+v/c)] ! As I already said, I wrote: | x2' = g ( x2 - v t ) = g ( v t - c t ) = g (c-v) t | t2' = g ( t - v x2 /c^2) = g (t - v c t / c^2) = t sqrt(1-v/c) / sqrt(1+v/c) You have to learn to read what I write before you comment.
> One can also write > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > But at t2', x1', the first end of the stick, still measure 0. Imbecile. x1' is a measurement made at time t1', so the first end of the stick is at x1' at time t1' - not at t2'. You have to learn to read what I write. You have to learn to understand the meanings of the variables, specially when people take the trouble to explain them.
> If you deny this, you are a crackpot squared. > > So, the length of the stick in the S'-frame is given by > x2' - x1' = g (c-v) t - 0 = g (c-v) t, or > = c t2' - 0 = c t2' No, imbecile. x1' is the distance at time t1' x2' is the distance at time t2' and t1' # t2' - just open your pig-eyes and use them to look at the expressions. All of this is by *your* design: x2 = c t (the light signal, as seen at time t in the S-frame) and x1 = v t (the origin of S', as seen at time t). You have to learn to understand what you write before you spout nonsense about my comments.
> The length is thus *dilated* according to the Einsteinian LT. Only if you decide to measure the front and the rear of a moving train at different times and then call the difference of those distances the *dilated length* of the train.
You have to learn to try to understand what people try to tell you.
> You wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the first. After some time interval, the distance between the > two cars is of course increased, not reduced. Imbecile, no one is talking about two cars. You originally asked a very stupid question and I gave a trivial answer. You have to learn to read with people write. We ended up talking about one stick, the length of which is measured in its own rest frame giving (t,x1) and (t,x2), and in a moving frame giving (t1',x1') and (t2',x2'). x2' - x1' is not the length in the moving frame because the distances to the end points are measured at different times t1' and t2'. You have to learn to understand what people are trying to tell you. If you want to measure its length in the moving frame, make sure that you measure the distances simultaneously in that frame. The they will not be simultaneous in the rest frame of the stick, but that does not matter since the distances remain constant in that frame.
But I guess you are too stupid to understand that.
> I guess you are too stupid to understand that.
:-) Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 06 Oct 2006 21:32 GMT > <mluttgens@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:1159959259.942562.269560@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Imbecile. The stupid Vdm wrote:
> x1' is a measurement made at time t1', so the first end of > the stick is at x1' at time t1' - not at t2'. The stupid Vdm ignores that the first end of the stick coincide at *any* time with the origin of S'. At the origin of S', one has always x1' = 0
Marcel Luttgens
> You have to learn to read what I write. > You have to learn to understand the meanings of the variables, [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 06 Oct 2006 23:30 GMT >> <mluttgens@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:1159959259.942562.269560@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Marcel Luttgens The stick is at rest in the S-frame. Here are *your* data | "Let's imagine a stick with length | x = (c-v) t = ct - vt | at rest in the S frame." and | x2 = c t (the light signal, as seen at time t in the S-frame) and | x1 = v t (the origin of S', as seen at time t). for a fixed value of t from my first reponse to your silly question.
So the first end of the stick does *not* "coincide at *any* time with the origin of S'."
My my.... you are a dishonest little creep, aren't you? Or shall we keep it at Plain Stone Stupid? ;-)
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 07 Oct 2006 16:39 GMT > >> <mluttgens@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:1159959259.942562.269560@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >> [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Here is a classical explanation why a moving stick appears contracted to an observer at rest:
Consider a stick which, when at rest in S, has a length Lo in the direction of the x-axis.
Let the stick be set moving relative to S at such velocity that it is at rest in S'. Its length as measured in S' will still be Lo, because it must have a certain fixed value in any frame in which the stick is at rest.
Let us see how the length now measure in S, relative to which the stick is moving with a velocity v. It seems reasonable to define the length as the distance between two points fixed in S, which are occupied by the ends of the stick simultaneously, i.e., at the same time t. If the coordinates of these points are x1 and x2, the length is then L = x2 - x1.
Since the stick is at rest in S', its ends have fixed coordinates x1', x2' such as Lo = x2' - x1'.
If one substitutes in this last equation values of x2' and x1' calculated from the LT x' = g(x - vt), one obtains, for a given value of t,
Lo = g(x2 - x1) = gL, or L = Lo/g,
meaning that to an observer at rest, the length of a moving stick appears shortened by 1/g.
For instance, x1' = 0 and x2' = g(c - v)t, thus Lo = x2' - x1' = g(c - v)t. L = Lo/g = (c - v)t = ct - vt. Hence, x2 = ct and x1 = vt, meaning that according to S, one end of the stick coincide with the origin of S', and the other end corresponds to the distance travelled by a light signal after a time t. Notice that in S', the origin of S' is always 0. Notice also that a stick of length L = (c - v)t at rest in S is *dilated* by g in S', according to the LT. Indeed, x1' = g(x1 - vt) = g(vt - vt) = 0 x2' = g(x2 - vt) = g(ct - vt) = g(c - v)t x2' - x1' = g(c - v)t
Marcel Luttgens
Dirk Van de moortel - 07 Oct 2006 16:47 GMT [snip]
>> My my.... you are a dishonest little creep, aren't you? >> Or shall we keep it at Plain Stone Stupid? ;-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here is a classical explanation why a moving stick appears contracted > to an observer at rest: Marcel, you are constipated. Try an enema. I hear they can help you in Illinois.
Dirk Vdm
Brian Kennelly - 07 Oct 2006 17:56 GMT > Here is a classical explanation why a moving stick appears contracted > to an observer at rest: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > meaning that to an observer at rest, the length of a moving > stick appears shortened by 1/g. Up to here, you are doing fine.
> For instance, x1' = 0 and x2' = g(c - v)t, thus Now, you substitute a stick that is growing with time. That will make it very hard to compare lengths between systems.
> Lo = x2' - x1' = g(c - v)t. > L = Lo/g = (c - v)t = ct - vt. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Notice also that a stick of length L = (c - v)t at > rest in S At most, only one point of the stick can be at rest, because it is expanding rapidly.
> is *dilated* by g in S', according to the LT. > Indeed, > x1' = g(x1 - vt) = g(vt - vt) = 0 > x2' = g(x2 - vt) = g(ct - vt) = g(c - v)t > x2' - x1' = g(c - v)t You are attempting to describe the length in S' by comparing the end point locations at the same time in S. You must use the same time in S' for a meaningful result. In this case it is easy, because one end is at the origin, and the other end moves at the speed of light
x1' = 0 x2' = ct'
So the length is always ct'. On the other hand, this tells us nothing about the comparison of sticks with a fixed length.
Dirk Van de moortel - 07 Oct 2006 18:52 GMT >> Here is a classical explanation why a moving stick appears contracted >> to an observer at rest: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> stick appears shortened by 1/g. > Up to here, you are doing fine. Yes, and then he f.cks up. In case you hadn't met Marcel -Constipated- Luttgens yet: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Fumblamental.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/DidntUseSR.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/HypotheticalInsult.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Logarithms.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LutLog.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/ApplyDerivation.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PlainlyWrong.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Indulging.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LuttgensComment.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/CrackpotAccept.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/TrueCrackpots.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MuchSimpler.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/NegativeCrap.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/MoronLikeMe.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LuttRel.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/StupidLie.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SimplyWrong.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SpeedV.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/OnlyGalilean.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/ArmsGrow2.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/ArmsGrow.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/IfOnlyIf.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SRSymbols.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/CorrectRelations.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Forget.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SRLuttgens.html
Don't say I didn't warn you ;-)
Dirk Vdm
Sorcerer - 07 Oct 2006 19:54 GMT | > Here is a classical explanation why a moving stick appears contracted | > to an observer at rest: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] | > stick appears shortened by 1/g. | Up to here, you are doing fine. How about up to here?
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Smart/Smart.htm
How fine am I doing?
| > For instance, x1' = 0 and x2' = g(c - v)t, thus | Now, you substitute a stick that is growing with time. That's called a tree.
That
| will make it very hard to compare lengths between systems. Nah, you make wooden rulers out of trees, they stop growing with time and makes it easy to compare lengths between systems.
| > Lo = x2' - x1' = g(c - v)t. | > L = Lo/g = (c - v)t = ct - vt. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | > Notice also that a stick of length L = (c - v)t at | > rest in S
| At most, only one point of the stick can be at rest, because it | is expanding rapidly. Yes, it's the part just below the ground between the roots and the trunk that's at rest.
| > is *dilated* by g in S', according to the LT. | > Indeed, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | easy, because one end is at the origin, and the other end moves | at the speed of light Nah nah, sticks don't move as fast as light squirrels, or even heavy ones.
| x1' = 0 | x2' = ct' | | So the length is always ct'. On the other hand, this tells us | nothing about the comparison of sticks with a fixed length. Get a plastic ruler from Woolworths, they are lighter than wooden sticks.
Brian Kennelly - 07 Oct 2006 21:35 GMT > How about up to here? > > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Smart/Smart.htm > > How fine am I doing? I have not idea what that page is trying to say, but you still appear to be misunderstanding Einstein's simple math.
Sorcerer - 07 Oct 2006 23:22 GMT | > How about up to here? | > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | I have not idea what that page is trying to say, but you still | appear to be misunderstanding Einstein's simple math. Oh... Well, it shows how the cuckoo malformations that every shitheaded relativist blames Lorentz for are derived, is it too hard for you? Half of twenty is sixteen, the other half is four. That's Einstein's simple math, I understand it very well. What is it that you imagine I'm misunderstanding, fuckwit? Androcles.
Brian Kennelly - 07 Oct 2006 21:59 GMT > How about up to here? > > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Smart/Smart.htm > > How fine am I doing? OK. I think I can condense your argument down to this:
You don't believe that it is possible to define t' (tau) in a way that satisfies:
1/2(t'(0,20)) = t'(32,16)
Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example.
If we define t'(x,t) = -3x/16 + t
then t'(0,20) = 20 t'(32,16) = 10
and the equation is satisfied.
(Note, I didn't check your numbers, nor did I try to give the SR equation. I simply provided an example to show that your objection is without merit.)
Dirk Van de moortel - 07 Oct 2006 22:12 GMT >> How about up to here? >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (Note, I didn't check your numbers, nor did I try to give the SR equation. I simply provided an example to show that your > objection is without merit.) check his limits: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Limit.html check his equations: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Doofus.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SetSolve2.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Persuasive.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndroDistri.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Pythagoras.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/ToothlessBite.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Competent.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/UseTrans.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Sheesh.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SetSolve.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/DivZero.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Think.html check his Boolean algebra: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/XORWildStab.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Gibberish.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/XOROnceMore.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/XORrevisited.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/XORContinued.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/XORpersistence.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LooksBoolean.html check his differentials: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/DiffConst.html check his integrals: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Integral.html check his geometry: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SimpleEnough.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/FullyAware.html check his transformations: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndroTransform.html check his calculations: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/FALSE.html check his groups: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndroGroups.html check his logs: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/LogsHuh.html check his vectors: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/IdiotVectors.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/AndroVec.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/VectorLength.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/VectorSpaces.html check his polar coordinates: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PolarManager.html check his square roots: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/GoodTeachers.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/TwoTurds.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/STILL.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/CanSpecify.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Nearly.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Quadratic.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/GrowUp.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Tautology.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Material.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/GIVEN.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PythagoRescue.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SqrtRev.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/NegSqrt.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Humour.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/SqrtAnswers.html check his partial differential equations: http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PartialDiff.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PartialDiff2.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PartialDiff3.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/PartialDiff4.html http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/NotFxy.html ... and check his diapers http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Orgasm.html
Don't say I didn't warn you ;-)
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 07 Oct 2006 23:35 GMT > >> How about up to here? > >> [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > ... and check his diapers > http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Orgasm.html Sorry, de gevraagde pagina kan niet gevonden worden. Page not found - HTTP 404
How much do you get from Jiba? If Jiba applies the Einsteinian LT's, you could better stay in your kot.
Marcel Luttgens
> Don't say I didn't warn you ;-) > > Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Oct 2006 10:04 GMT >> >> How about up to here? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/DivZero.html >> http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Think.html [snip]
>> ... and check his diapers >> http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Orgasm.html > > Sorry, de gevraagde pagina kan niet gevonden worden. > Page not found - HTTP 404 Sorry. http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Androrgasm.html Thanks for letting me know.
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 08 Oct 2006 18:15 GMT > >> >> How about up to here? > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Dirk Vdm What is STATCOUNTER? A free yet reliable invisible web tracker, highly configurable hit counter and real-time detailed web stats. Insert a simple piece of our code on your web page and you will be able to analyse and monitor all the visitors to your website in real-time!
<!-- Start of StatCounter Code --> <script type="text/javascript" language="javascript"> var sc_project=1141211; var sc_invisible=1; var sc_partition=10; var sc_security="fa99ac55"; var sc_https=1; var sc_remove_link=1; </script>
<script type="text/javascript" language="javascript" src="https://secure.statcounter.com/counter/frames.js"></script><noscript><img
src="https://c11.statcounter.com/counter.php?sc_project=1141211&java=0&securi ty=fa99ac55&invisible=1" alt="invisible hit counter" border="0"> </noscript> <!-- End of StatCounter Code -->
Here is the cookie I got by clicking on http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Limit.html
session_1141211 1160326018%260 statcounter.com/ 1024 3127127296 30180624 1236305888 29813497 *
About cookies:
"Cookies can be used for more controversial purposes. Each access your browser makes to a Web site leaves some information about you behind, creating a gossamer trail across the Internet. Among the tidbits of data left along this trail are the name and IP address of your computer, the brand of browser you're using, the operating system you're running, the URL of the Web page you accessed, and the URL of the page you were last viewing."
Does Statcounter give you such infos?
Marcel Luttgens
Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Oct 2006 18:52 GMT >> >> >> How about up to here? >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > our code on your web page and you will be able to analyse and monitor > all the visitors to your website in real-time! http://www.statcounter.com/privacy.html
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 08 Oct 2006 22:21 GMT > >> >> >> How about up to here? > >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > http://www.statcounter.com/privacy.html You are monitoring all the visitors to your website. I don't think that
it is ethically allowed.
Marcel Luttgens
> Dirk Vdm Dirk Van de moortel - 08 Oct 2006 22:58 GMT >> >> >> >> How about up to here? >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Marcel Luttgens
:-)) "A Crackpot's Sence of Ethics": http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/CrackpotEthics.html Way to go, Marcel.
Dirk Vdm
mluttgens@wanadoo.fr - 09 Oct 2006 11:30 GMT > >> >> >> >> How about up to here? > >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Dirk Vdm Your site is a bunch of malicious crap, that illustrates your poor sense of ethic. No wonder that you are now sending tracking cookies.
Marcel Luttgens
Dirk Van de moortel - 09 Oct 2006 17:40 GMT >> >> >> >> >> How about up to here? >> >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > Your site is a bunch of malicious crap, that illustrates your poor > sense of ethic. No wonder that you are now sending tracking cookies. I don't send cookies. Statcounter does. Block them if you like. I'm not at all interested in Unique Visitors. I'm interested in liars like Andrcles and Golden Boar ;-)
Dirk Vdm
Golden Boar - 09 Oct 2006 18:06 GMT > >> >> >> >> >> How about up to here? > >> >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > Dirk Vdm I never lied Dirk, but you did, and was caught in the act.
Sorcerer - 07 Oct 2006 23:42 GMT | > How about up to here? | > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | 1/2(t'(0,20)) = t'(32,16) And satisfy 1/2(t'(0,4)) = t'(32,16) as well? That's right, I don't believe it is possible.
| Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example. I didn't make any assertion, Einstein did.
| If we define | t'(x,t) = -3x/16 + t [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | and the equation is satisfied. That's not the answer, it should be 16.
tau = (t-vx/c^2)/ sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) = (20 - 0.6*0) / sqrt( 1 -0.36) = 20/0.8 = 16 Is Einstein's simple math too difficult for you?
| (Note, I didn't check your numbers, nor did I try to give the SR | equation. I simply provided an example to show that your | objection is without merit.) Noted. You didn't bother to check and got the wrong answer. Another arrogant shithead.... f.ck off, moron. Androcles
Brian Kennelly - 08 Oct 2006 04:29 GMT > | > How about up to here? > | > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And satisfy 1/2(t'(0,4)) = t'(32,16) as well? That's right, I don't > believe it is possible. Why do you want to satisfy that equation? You are objecting to Einstein's derivation of the LT, and using your numbers, only the equation I quoted corresponds to his derivation.
> | Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example. > > I didn't make any assertion, Einstein did. No, you assert that Einstein's equation cannot be satisfied, and that, consequently, it is nonsense. I disproved your assertion, using your numbers.
> | If we define > | t'(x,t) = -3x/16 + t [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's not the answer, it should be 16. No, the equation was:
> 1/2(t'(0,20)) = t'(32,16) My proposed function for t' satisfies the equation: 1/2(20) = 10
16 is one of the function's arguments, not necessarily its value. Einstein's functional equation only determines the relationship up to a multiplicative constant, the value of which is determined later in the paper.
If it will make you happier, use: t'(x,t) = -3x/20 + 4t/5
Now t'(0,20) = 16 and t'(32,16) = 8 and, once again the equation is satisfied. 1/2/(16) = 8
> | (Note, I didn't check your numbers, nor did I try to give the SR > | equation. I simply provided an example to show that your > | objection is without merit.) I didn't check your numbers, because you didn't clearly state where they came from.
Looking at your equations, I infer that: c=5 (Light speed) v=3 (Train speed) x'=32 (Length of the moving train in the latin system)
Those numbers are consistent, and lead to the stated equations.
Your
> 1/2(t'(0,20) = t'(32,4) doesn't correspond to anything in Einstein's paper, or in his argument.
Sorcerer - 08 Oct 2006 05:56 GMT | > | > How about up to here? | > | > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | | Why do you want to satisfy that equation? Because I want to send the light back again, moron.
"But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with the velocity c-v, so that
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img31.gif
| You are objecting to | Einstein's derivation of the LT, and using your numbers, only | the equation I quoted corresponds to his derivation. The guy was half-arsed, like you. http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Rocket/eq22.A.GIF
| > | Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example. | > | > I didn't make any assertion, Einstein did. | No, you assert that Einstein's equation cannot be satisfied, I PROVE, I do NOT assert.
and
| that, consequently, it is nonsense. I disproved your assertion, | using your numbers. No you didn't, and you got the wrong answer anyway.
| > | If we define | > | t'(x,t) = -3x/16 + t [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | My proposed function for t' satisfies the equation: | 1/2(20) = 10 Wrong answer, shithead, it should be 16. Moving clocks run slow.
| 16 is one of the function's arguments, not necessarily its | value. Einstein's functional equation only determines the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | and, once again the equation is satisfied. | 1/2/(16) = 8 That's for the light time of x'/(c-v) Coming back its t = x'/(c+v), 1/2(4) = 8.
| > | (Note, I didn't check your numbers, nor did I try to give the SR | > | equation. I simply provided an example to show that your | > | objection is without merit.) | | I didn't check your numbers, because you didn't clearly state | where they came from. speed of light outgoing, track frame: 80/16 = 5 speed of light outgoing, train frame: 40/8 = 5 speed of light returning, track frame: 20/4 = 5 speed of light returning, train frame: 40/8 = 5
speed of light is the same ion all inertial frames of reference, trains move by peristalsis. "In the first place it is clear that the equations must be linear on account of the properties of homogeneity which we attribute to space and time." (linear in italics)
-- Shithead Einstein.
ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
tau(4) = 8
tau(16) = 8.
Nice linear function, that.
| Looking at your equations, I infer that: | c=5 (Light speed) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | doesn't correspond to anything in Einstein's paper, or in his | argument. That's because he left it out, fuckwit.
Androcles.
Brian Kennelly - 08 Oct 2006 07:34 GMT > | > | You don't believe that it is possible to define t' (tau) in a > | > | way that satisfies: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Because I want to send the light back again The '20' in the left hand term includes the full round trip in the latin frame. 16+4=20
Your new equation does not correspond to anything in the argument.
> "But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in > the stationary system, with the velocity c-v, so that > > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img31.gif The 'plus' sign on the right hand side does not belong. The time in the right hand side includes only the out bound ray. It represents the time of the reflection.
Einstein's equation simply says that, in the system moving with the train, the reflection occurs at the mid point of the round trip. It represents that in terms of the times and locations in the other system.
What is your objection?
> | > | Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example. > | > > | > I didn't make any assertion, Einstein did. > | No, you assert that Einstein's equation cannot be satisfied, > > I PROVE, I do NOT assert. Your proof must be flawed, because, as I showed you, a counter-example exists.
State your proof.
> and > | that, consequently, it is nonsense. I disproved your assertion, > | using your numbers. > > No you didn't, and you got the wrong answer anyway. Where is the flaw in my demonstration? I provided a function for tau that satisfied the equation. I followed up by providing a function that satisfied the equation and yielded the value you wanted to see (below).
> | If it will make you happier, use: > | t'(x,t) = -3x/20 + 4t/5 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Coming back its t = x'/(c+v), > 1/2(4) = 8. Coming back is already included in the equation (20=16+4). Your new equation is meaningless.
> tau(4) = 8 > > tau(16) = 8. > > Nice linear function, that. If you include the 'x' values, you can satisfy both of these equations with a linear function.
Using T for tau, and Einstein's x' (for consistency in our discussion): T(x',t) = 4/5t-x'*3/20
So, t'(32,16) = 8 t'(-32,4) = 8
Nice linear function, indeed!
> | Looking at your equations, I infer that: > | c=5 (Light speed) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > That's because he left it out, He left it out, because it does not correspond to anything in the argument. If you want to introduce it, you will have to explain its meaning and place in the argument.
Sorcerer - 08 Oct 2006 13:27 GMT | > | > | You don't believe that it is possible to define t' (tau) in a | > | > | way that satisfies: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | The '20' in the left hand term includes the full round trip in | the latin frame. 16+4=20 Yes, 16 is half of 20 and 4 is the other half.
| Your new equation does not correspond to anything in the argument. tau(4) = 8, tau(16) = 8, hence 4 = 16.
| > "But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in | > the stationary system, with the velocity c-v, so that | > | > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img31.gif | | The 'plus' sign on the right hand side does not belong. Ok, what the f.ck is it doing in http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif
See the thread title? "SR fundamental contradiction". That wasn't me, that was someone else who realized something was wrong, and a stooopid f.ck like you with your head up your arse can't see what it is.
| The | time in the right hand side includes only the out bound ray. It | represents the time of the reflection. The time in the right hand side includes only half the total time. It represents the time of the reflection.
| Einstein's equation simply says that, in the system moving with | the train, the reflection occurs at the mid point of the round | trip. 1/2 of 100 = 80, the other half is 20.
xi(20) = 40, xi(80) = 40, xi(32) = 40. The distance in the right hand side includes only half the total distance. It represents the distance of the reflection.
Nothing wrong with that, is there?
| It represents that in terms of the times and locations in | the other system. | | What is your objection? I have no objection, you are the shithead that " I have not idea what that page is trying to say, but you still appear to be misunderstanding Einstein's simple math." but you still appear to be objecting Einstein's simple-minded math.
You got it right when you said "I have not idea", you have not brain, you have not clue. Just believe what you are told to believe, shithead.
| > | > | Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example. | > | > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | State your proof. I did. Trains move by peristalsis. A counter example exists, some of them have wheels. Wheels are not inertial frames of reference so maybe they don't count. SR is not flawed, it works fine for earthworms. 1/2 (20) = 4, 1/2(20) = 16 and 16+4 = 20. Right, worm?
| > and | > | that, consequently, it is nonsense. I disproved your assertion, | > | using your numbers. | > | > No you didn't, and you got the wrong answer anyway. | Where is the flaw in my demonstration? Nothing, it is fine. half of 10 is 8.
| I provided a function | for tau that satisfied the equation. I followed up by providing | a function that satisfied the equation and yielded the value you | wanted to see (below). Of course you did. tau(4) = 8, tau(16) = 8.
See the thread title? "SR fundamental contradiction". If a worm thinks tau(4) = tau(16) is a linear function why should I object? I have a tower in Paris, tall and made of iron. It's a great tourist spot. Would you like to buy it? I can arrange credit. All I need is a small deposit and a gullible worm. There are some nice fish out in the river, do you like being on my hook instead of Einstein's hook? He was such a nice angler, too. Pity he can't reel you in, he's dead. Of course being a REAL shitbag he'd be polite to you, but to me you are just another dumbfuck I can waste, you are not going anywhere with your life.
| > | If it will make you happier, use: | > | t'(x,t) = -3x/20 + 4t/5 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | Coming back is already included in the equation (20=16+4). Your | new equation is meaningless. Ok, worm. Stay on the hook.
| > tau(4) = 8 | > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | | Nice linear function, indeed! Oh, I see, the distance is -32. Why not say t'(-32,-16) = 8 instead? Time runs backwards, doesn't it?
| > | Looking at your equations, I infer that: | > | c=5 (Light speed) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | the argument. If you want to introduce it, you will have to | explain its meaning and place in the argument. How about this one instead: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Rocket/Rocket.htm
No worm in that one, sick sock puppet. How fine am I doing?
Androcles
Brian Kennelly - 08 Oct 2006 18:08 GMT > | > | > | You don't believe that it is possible to define t' (tau) in a > | > | > | way that satisfies: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Yes, 16 is half of 20 and 4 is the other half Nobody but you is claiming that. 16 and 4 are the divisions of the signal in the t times, but they are neither is 'half'. Only the tau times are equated between the out and back portions of the signal, so that they each represent half of the trip.
> | Your new equation does not correspond to anything in the argument. > > tau(4) = 8, tau(16) = 8, hence 4 = 16. Those equations are yours, not Einstein's. Einstein included the spatial dependence. When you do, then your conclusion does not follow, even for linear equations.
tau(-32,4)=tau(32,16)= 8 No contradiction.
The correct form of your argument is: if tau(x1',4)=tau(x2',16), then x1' \= x2'
> | > "But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured > in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ok, what the f.ck is it doing in > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif The plus sign is not on the right hand side. It is on the left. The left hand side represents the out-bound and return trip. The right hand side represents only the out-bound.
That is the reason for the 1/2 on the left. If the time is the same in both directions, then the outbound time is half of the full trip.
(Before you object that 16\=4, note that the times being equated are the tau times, not the t times. Nobody is claiming that the two t times are equal. Tau is a linear function of t *and* x', so there is no contradiction, if the x' values are different.)
> See the thread title? "SR fundamental contradiction". > That wasn't me, that was someone else who realized something > was wrong, and a xxxxxxxxxxx like you with your head up your > xxxx can't see what it is. Then enlighten me.
Your arguments will carry more weight if you can refrain from offensive language. The strength of your language is inversely proportional to the strength of your argument.
> | The > | time in the right hand side includes only the out bound ray. It [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 1/2 of 100 = 80, the other half is 20. The length of the train is the same in both directions. From this obvious fact, we conclude that, in the train system, the time for the light signals in both directions are the same.
> The distance in the right hand side includes only half the total distance. > It represents the distance of the reflection. > > Nothing wrong with that, is there? It is correct that the right hand side contains the distance of the reflection (in Einstein's x'[=x-vt]). It also contains the time of the reflection (in t time). The value of the function is the tau time of the reflection.
> | It represents that in terms of the times and locations in > | the other system. > | > | What is your objection? > > I have no objection, Then you assent to the correctness of Einstein's equations?
> | > | > | Yours is an assertion easily disproved by example. > | > | > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > SR is not flawed, it works fine for earthworms. > 1/2 (20) = 4, 1/2(20) = 16 and 16+4 = 20. Right, worm? State your proof, not your erroneous equations.
> | > | that, consequently, it is nonsense. I disproved your assertion, > | > | using your numbers. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Nothing, it is fine. Thank you.
> How about this one instead: > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Rocket/Rocket.htm > > No worm in that one, sick sock puppet. > How fine am I doing? As a criticism of Einstein, it is meaningless, because you have light travelling at two different speeds in the same reference system.
You also seem to be claiming, erroneously, that because the clocks are synchronized in t time, they are synchronized in train time. That is a proposition that you may want to prove, but you cannot assume.
Sorcerer - 08 Oct 2006 21:07 GMT | > | > | > | You don't believe that it is possible to define t' (tau) in a | > | > | > | way that satisfies: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] | the tau times are equated between the out and back portions of | the signal, so that they each represent half of the trip. Proof?
| > | Your new equation does not correspond to anything in the argument. | > | > tau(4) = 8, tau(16) = 8, hence 4 = 16. | Those equations are yours, not Einstein's. Proof?
| Einstein included | the spatial dependence. When you do, then your conclusion does | not follow, even for linear equations. Proof?
| tau(-32,4)=tau(32,16)= 8
| No contradiction. Proof?
| The correct form of your argument is: | if tau(x1',4)=tau(x2',16), then x1' \= x2' Well done, shithead. http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif See any x1' or x2' in that equation, fuckwit? How about x1'/(c-v) and x2'/(c+v), moron? Your blind faith in a huckster is pathetically stupid and ridiculous, which is why I'm ridiculing you, stupid f.ck. Relativity has more holes in it than the cheese Einstein ate in Switzerland. No contradiction.
| > | > "But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured | > in | > | > the stationary system, with the velocity c-v, so that http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img31.gif
| > | The 'plus' sign on the right hand side does not belong. | > | > Ok, what the f.ck is it doing in | > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif | The plus sign is not on the right hand side. It is on the left. Yes. That's why 1/2 of 20 is 16. The other half is 4.
| The left hand side represents the out-bound and return trip. | The right hand side represents only the out-bound. That's right. The right hand side represents only the out-bound. We ignore the inbound, it won't produce the cuckoo malformations and make a huckster famous. You are a so FUCKIN' stooopid.
| That is the reason for the 1/2 on the left. If the time is the | same in both directions, then the outbound time is half of the | full trip. | (Before you object that 16\=4, note that the times being equated | are the tau times, not the t times. Yes, tau(16) = 8 and tau(4) =8.
| Nobody is claiming that the | two t times are equal. |
|