Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Biology
BiologyBotanyMicrobiologyEntomologyEvolutionPaleontology
Chemistry
General ChemistryAnalytical ChemistryElectrochemistryOrganic Synthesis
Earth Science
GeologyMineralogyOceanographyMeteorologyEarthquakes
Physics
General PhysicsResearchRelativityParticle PhysicsElectromagnetismFusionOpticsAcousticsNew Theories

Natural Science Forum / Physics / Relativity / December 2006



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

"Is There a Force of Gravity?"

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Toob - 24 Nov 2006 13:25 GMT
"Is There a Force of Gravity?"

    In undergraduate physics, the Newtonian concept of an attractive force
between masses that is proportional to the product of the masses divided by
the square of their separation is taught. When one advances to the more
advanced concepts of gravitational theory as posed by General Relativity,
the concept seems to change to where what we experience as a force is really
the result of an inertial acceleration in "space-time".

    It behooves us then to examine that concept in detail. Consider two
points on the Earth, perhaps London, England and Melbourne, Australia. In
both of these cities, observers experience a downward "pull " towards the
Earth's center. (We can ignore the centrifugal acceleration caused by
Earth's rotation since, at the most, it represents only 0.3% of the Earth's
gravitational acceleration and consider the Earth to be a closed system for
the purposes of the discussion, all velocities and accelerations are
relative to the center of the Earth and, since both London and Melbourne are
nominally at the same elevation which does not change, considerations of
time dilation in the gravitational field are irrelevant. These
clarifications are required because a pair of individuals whose thinking
processes were limited attempted clouds the discussion by introducing them
in response to a previous posting.) Inertial acceleration is defined as the
second derivative of position with respect to time, and since London and
Melbourne are within the closed reference frame represented by the Earth
they do not change their separation with respect to each other but they do
experience the force of gravity as acting in essentially opposite
directions. Since are observed not to undergo spatial acceleration with
respect to each other and the center of the Earth, that observed force of
gravity CANNOT result from an inertial acceleration. It can only result from
an actual force attracting those cities towards the Earth's center in
accordance with the classical Newtonian concept of gravity. It cannot result
from a spatial acceleration in "space-time" as is asserted by specious
interpretations of both Special and General Relativity. The force is REAL.
It is much more than a mathematical abstraction!

    In response to a previous posting of this material, the writer received
an E-Mail claiming that the writer was in error. It asserted that Melbourne
and London were really in a "flattened" orbits around the center of the
Earth and experienced the "force" if gravity because they were restrained
from following their null geodesic orbits by the Earth's surface. What
appeared to be the "force" of gravity resulted from that restraint because
it prevented these two cities from following their null geodesic path? This
is a rather frivolous response. If the cities were to fall through the
Earth, the inertial force produced by the resulting second derivative of
position with respect to time and the gravitational force would cancel and
the cities would experience no net force. The attractive force that they
actually experience verifies that gravitational force and inertial
acceleration are different phenomena describing TWO effects, gravitational
attraction and inertial acceleration. There is no way of avoiding the
conclusion that the former applies a force as the result of the proximity of
masses and inertial acceleration applies a force as a result of the second
derivative of position with respect to time. It is only in the never-never
world which mathematics allows one to be foolish enough to consider that
they were different aspects of the same phenomena.

    As a digression, the interchange of electric and magnetic energy in a
resonant circuit is conventionally treated as a single phenomena and treated
by a single set of mathematics, as is the interchange of potential energy
and kinetic energy when an object is in orbit. In actuality, in the resonant
circuit, the energy is alternately stored in a capacitor as an electric
stress in its dielectric and is stored in the inductor in its magnetic lines
of force. The actions of both of these devices are independently described
by their own mathematical laws. It is only when they are connected together
do their laws combine to provide an action we experience as resonance in
which energy is cyclicly interchanged between the two devices. I can hold a
charged capacitor in one hand and an inductor in the other hand. It is only
when they are connected together that resonance occurs. The same conculsion
holds true for gravitation. Gravitation forces and acceleration forces are
independent effects which, when coupled, account for orbits as if a single
process were involved. The orbital motion results from the cyclical
interchange of energy between the two independent effects.

    Mathematics is a useful tool, but it seems to have been forgotten that
it is only a tool, it should never be used as a substitute for the
intelligence needed to understand of the "mechanism(s)" involved. Physics
seems to be the only science that attempts to abolish "mechanism" and rely
solely on mathematics and experiment. This probably results from the fact
that understanding the "mechanisms" which are involved requires an innate
talent that probably cannot be taught in schools and is as rare as the
musical aptitude which allows an individual to play a violin in Carnegie
Hall. It is no wonder that physicists work so hard to relegate the idea of
"mechanism" to the trash bin of history. It avoids the embarrassment of
admitting that they do not understand their subject.

    The source material for this posting may be found in
http://einsteinhoax.com/hoax.htm (1997); http://einsteinhoax.com/gravity.htm 
(1987); and http://einsteinhoax.com/relcor.htm (1997). EVERYTHING WHICH WE
ACCEPT AS TRUE MUST BE CONSISTENT WITH EVERYTHING ELSE WE HAVE ACCEPTED AS
TRUE, IT MUST BE CONSISTENT WITH ALL OBSERVATIONS, AND IT MUST BE
MATHEMATICALLY VIABLE. PRESENT TEACHINGS DO NOT ALWAYS MEET THIS
REQUIREMENT. THE WORLD IS ENTITLED TO A HIGHER STANDARD OF WORKMANSHIP FROM
THOSE IT HAS GRANTED WORLD CLASS STATUS.

    All of the Newsposts made by this site may be viewed at the
http://einsteinhoax.com/postinglog.htm.

    Please make any response via E-mail as Newsgroups are not monitored on
a regular basis. Objective responses will be treated with the same courtesy
as they are presented. To prevent the wastage of time on both of our parts,
please do not raise objections that are not related to material that you
have read at the Website. This posting is merely a summary.

    E-mail:- einsteinhoax@isp.com. If you wish a reply, be sure that your
mail reception is not blocked.

    The material at the Website has been posted continuously for over 8
years. In that time THERE HAVE BEEN NO OBJECTIVE REBUTTALS OF ANY OF THE
MATERIAL PRESENTED. There have only been hand waving arguments by
individuals who have mindlessly accepted the prevailing wisdom without
questioning it. If anyone provides a significant rebuttal that cannot be
objectively answered, the material at the Website will be withdrawn.
Challenges to date have revealed only the responder's inadequacy with one
exception for which a correction was provided.
ftl@adexec.com - 24 Nov 2006 17:04 GMT
> "Is There a Force of Gravity?"

if you feel a pressure in your feet, then it is a force
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 24 Nov 2006 18:14 GMT
Dear ftl:

>> "Is There a Force of Gravity?"
>
> if you feel a pressure in your feet, then it is a force

Swing an object on a string.  There is one force on the object...
that of the string.

There is one force in a body at rest on the surface of a planet.
That of the planet pushing up on "the feet".  Gravity is not a
force. "Lithospheric friction" is.

David A. Smith
rstn - 24 Nov 2006 20:17 GMT
> Dear ftl:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> David A. Smith

Dear mister SMith

aparently what you say makes sense

let us just call all forces for lithospheric friction

i tell you what, it feels like a force - it is a force, by the
pure definition of a very force
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 24 Nov 2006 20:23 GMT
Dear rstn:

>> Dear ftl:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> i tell you what, it feels like a force - it is a force, by the
> pure definition of a very force

Good.  Then an object in orbit around a larger body, feels no
force.  Gravitation is not a force.

David A. Smith
rstn - 24 Nov 2006 20:40 GMT
> Dear rstn:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> David A. Smith

dear mister Smith

thank you  for your e-mail.

you are clever man, thanks

if that object were  a conscious observer or sensor, than it would
detect that force, see tidal forces, how could it not feel
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 24 Nov 2006 21:35 GMT
Dear rstn:

>> Dear rstn:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> if that object were  a conscious observer or sensor,
> than it would detect that force,

Astronauts feel no "gravitational" or "tidal" forces in the ISS.
Float a pen in front of one of these astronauts... and it only
drifts where the air circulation system takes it.

> see tidal forces, how could it not feel

You can't see "tidal forces".  That which produces tides does not
act locally, but is evident when spread over a "large" system.

David A. Smith
Sue... - 24 Nov 2006 22:12 GMT
> Dear rstn:
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> You can't see "tidal forces".  That which produces tides does not
> act locally, but is evident when spread over a "large" system.

You can't *see* a fast aeroplane propeller. Will
you walk into one to demonstrate no force is
acting on it?

Get some magnets play with them 'till you decide
if the force acts on the ends, the surface, the middle
or is distributed throughout the mass.

Hint:
http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/inddip.html
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.html

Sue...

> David A. Smith
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) - 25 Nov 2006 02:59 GMT
Dear Sue:

...
> You can't *see* a fast aeroplane propeller. Will
> you walk into one to demonstrate no force is
> acting on it?

Do you ever post on topic?

David A. Smith
Eric Gisse - 25 Nov 2006 03:12 GMT
> Dear Sue:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Do you ever post on topic?

He does on occasion, but his knowledge of physics is on par with his
ability to post on-topic links.

> David A. Smith
Sue... - 25 Nov 2006 07:01 GMT
> > Dear Sue:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> He does on occasion, but his knowledge of physics is on par with his
> ability to post on-topic links.

Dave at least maintains some civility. He doesn't claim to be a
professional so you've no nght to judge him on that scale.

Sue...

> > David A. Smith
Eric Gisse - 25 Nov 2006 07:22 GMT
> > > Dear Sue:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Dave at least maintains some civility. He doesn't claim to be a
> professional so you've no nght to judge him on that scale.

I was talking about you.

Read - Comprehend - Post.

> Sue...
>
> > > David A. Smith
Sue... - 25 Nov 2006 08:10 GMT
> > > > Dear Sue:
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I was talking about you.

Oh... I forgot that you apply imaginary operators to pronouns
instead of the numbers they are intended for.
http://www.nrao.edu/~smyers/courses/astro12/speedoflight.html

Sue...

> Read - Comprehend - Post.
>
> > Sue...
> >
> > > > David A. Smith
pmb - 26 Nov 2006 02:09 GMT
> I was talking about you.
>
> Read - Comprehend - Post.

Sue *was* posting on topic. She was using a metaphor when she wrote

---------------------------------
You can't *see* a fast aeroplane propeller. Will
you walk into one to demonstrate no force is
acting on it?
---------------------------------
By this Sue means that because you don't see something it doesn't mean
that its not there.

Is that correct Sue?

Best wishes

Pete
Sue... - 25 Nov 2006 06:48 GMT
> Dear Sue:
>
> ...
> > You can't *see* a fast aeroplane propeller. Will
> > you walk into one to demonstrate no force is
> > acting on it?

<<  Do you ever post on topic? >>

You finally made a good call. The link to the Einstein lecture
(you graciously snipped)
as well a most of his work, tells us little if anything about
gravity.

Sue...

> David A. Smith
pmb - 26 Nov 2006 02:06 GMT
> Astronauts feel no "gravitational" or "tidal" forces in the ISS.
> Float a pen in front of one of these astronauts... and it only
> drifts where the air circulation system takes it.

I believe that the shuttle now contains a gravity gradiometer which can
measure tidal forces (See Ohanian's "Gravitation and Spacetime - Second
Ed." page 51).

> You can't see "tidal forces".  That which produces tides does not
> act locally, but is evident when spread over a "large" system.

Since when did tidal forces not become measurable. A friend of mine is
an astrophysicist and tells me that satellites need to be readjusted
spatially every so often to compensate for today forces twisting it out
of position.

Best wishes

Pete
Mike - 26 Nov 2006 02:37 GMT
> Dear rstn:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Good.  Then an object in orbit around a larger body, feels no
> force.  Gravitation is not a force.

Do you "communicate" with material objects so you know what they
"feel"?

I mean, words like, 'exists", "real", "ficticious", etc, have no place
in physics. A force is measured by measuring acceleration. If there is
acceleration, there is force. Nothing more into it, just a definition
of Newtonian mechanics.

If someone says: there "are" no forces in the world, he is doing
metaphysics, not physics.

Mike

> David A. Smith
JanPB - 26 Nov 2006 03:06 GMT
> > Dear rstn:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> acceleration, there is force. Nothing more into it, just a definition
> of Newtonian mechanics.

But this type of force is different than "typical" forces in that it's
defined as m-times-a *only* - IOW it's not defined by any other force
law involving a *second* (third, fourth...) object. It is the presence
of the *second* (third...) physical entity and the presence of *another
force law involving such extra entities* that gives a "real" force its
"reality" - NOT the fact that "since it's m-times-a then it must be
real because m and a are real". If this were true then "m^2a" would
also be "real" as well as "7ma", "sqrt(5.73m^4a)", etc. etc.

For example, the stretched spring force equated to ma in order to find
the ball's motion (or whatever it is that's attached to the spring) is
given as "kx" - a different formula than "ma" which involves a quantity
pertaining to a second object: the spring (namely, the quantity "k").

The forces referred to by the funny term "fictitious" do not have any
other formula (force law) defining them in terms of other objects. They
are just extra "ma"-terms in a formula. That's why they are different
and that's why - incidentally - Newton's "F=ma" is NOT just a random
definition of a random symbol called "F". It is in fact an
identification of a quantity which can be given in terms of actual
physical interactions with other objects. "Fictitious" forces do not
possess such characterisations. And, as a corollary, they do not
participate in action-reaction pair forming.

So if you don't like the WORD "fictitious" - fine. Point is division
into two types of forces ("real" and "fictitious" according to the
ingrained terminology) does make sense. Whether such distinction is
useful and/or confusing is another question but it definitely has its
place in physics.

--
Jan Bielawski
Mike - 26 Nov 2006 03:27 GMT
[snip]

> So if you don't like the WORD "fictitious" - fine. Point is division
> into two types of forces ("real" and "fictitious" according to the
> ingrained terminology) does make sense. Whether such distinction is
> useful and/or confusing is another question but it definitely has its
> place in physics.

"Ficticous" has no place in physics. As I said, both of my main
graduate mechanics/dynamics texts, do not use this label. It is only
very recent that some people insist on that label, including some cult
relativists.

Force is just a definition. How can a definition be "real" or
"ficticious"? It is beyond comprehension.

I think that poeple that made the mistake of calling some inetial
forces fictisious did have in mind that force has a real existence.
They created more confusion than intended to solve.

By the way,  I hope you know that Newton in Principia clarifies that
force is a mathematical concept right after he states the laws.

Mike

> --
> Jan Bielawski
JanPB - 26 Nov 2006 04:10 GMT
> Force is just a definition. How can a definition be "real" or
> "ficticious"? It is beyond comprehension.

I've just explained it. Force is a definition but point is it's not the
whole story.

> I think that poeple that made the mistake of calling some inetial
> forces fictisious

Oh, THAT's just a WORD. Use the WORD "inertial" if you prefer.

> did have in mind that force has a real existence.
> They created more confusion than intended to solve.

I don't think physicists treat these words literally in the sense of
their mundane meanings. Look at the concept of "work". Its physical
properties are ridiculously out of sync with the everyday meaning of
the WORD "work", yet nobody complains. Why such a big drama with the
word "fictitious"? It actually fits the intended physical meaning much
better than "work" does its meaning IMHO.

> By the way,  I hope you know that Newton in Principia clarifies that
> force is a mathematical concept right after he states the laws.

It is but the division I that underlies the distinction I mentioned in
the previous post does not go away.

--
Jan Bielawski
Tom Roberts - 26 Nov 2006 04:57 GMT
> "Ficticous" has no place in physics.

Except that it _IS_ used. Because the various "fictitious forces" were
invented to maintain the FICTION that Newton's laws are valid in various
accelerated coordinates. In GR this all becomes completely untenable....

> Force is just a definition. How can a definition be "real" or
> "ficticious"?

How can a mere "definition" be the equations of motion?

As JanPB points out, for a spring one must define a force F=kx,
completely independent of what you think is a "definition".

And when I push on this ball, I feel a FORCE on my hand, not merely some
disembodied "acceleration".

While in some interpretations of Newtonian mechanics one can say F=ma is
a definition, there are clearly other possible interpretations with
other definitions (e.g. "a push or a pull", to quote a famous one).

And, as I point out in another post in this thread, the world is NOT
Newtonian....

Tom Roberts
Sue... - 26 Nov 2006 05:03 GMT
> > "Ficticous" has no place in physics.
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> And, as I point out in another post in this thread, the world is NOT
> Newtonian....

Is there a Coulomb *Force*   ???
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html

Sue...

> Tom Roberts
Tom Roberts - 26 Nov 2006 16:28 GMT
> Is there a Coulomb *Force*   ???

Yes.

Tom Roberts
Sue... - 26 Nov 2006 16:50 GMT
> > Is there a Coulomb *Force*   ???
>
> Yes.
>
> Tom Roberts

Thank you. If Einstein guessed right then magnetic force
Van der Waals force, London force, and Gravity/inertia
can all be derived from that.

<< A second problem which at present is the subject
of lively interest is the identity between the gravitational
field and the electromagnetic field. The mind striving after
unification of the theory cannot be satisfied that two
fields should exist which, by their nature, are quite
independent. A mathematically unified field theory is
sought in which the gravitational field and the electromagnetic
field are interpreted only as different components or
manifestations of the same uniform field, the field
equations where possible no longer consisting of logically
mutually independent summands. >> ~page 8
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.html

http://einstein.stanford.edu/
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

Sue...
Sorcerer - 26 Nov 2006 17:49 GMT
| > Is there a Coulomb *Force*   ???
|
| Yes.
|
| Tom Roberts

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox

"Tom Roberts" <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:b99ah.9812$6t.9788@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
| Mike wrote:
| > "Ficticous" has no place in physics.

| Except that it _IS_ used. Because the various "fictitious forces" were
| invented to maintain the FICTION that Newton's laws are valid in various
| accelerated coordinates.

|  And, as I point out in another post in this thread, the world is NOT
| Newtonian....

Redux:  Fictitious Newtonian forces are not Newtonian.

There is no liar paradox without a liar.

"This is PHYSICS, not math or logic, and "proof" is completely
irrelevant." -- Roberts
Henri Wilson - 27 Nov 2006 04:45 GMT
>| > Is there a Coulomb *Force*   ???
>|
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>"This is PHYSICS, not math or logic, and "proof" is completely
>irrelevant." -- Roberts

You forgot the <shrug>

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 27 Nov 2006 10:33 GMT
| >| > Is there a Coulomb *Force*   ???
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
|
| You forgot the <shrug>

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves <shrug>
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe; <shrug>
All mimsy were the borogoves, <shrug>
And the mome raths outgrabe. <shrug>

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son! <shrug>
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! <shrug>
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun <shrug>
The frumious Bandersnatch!" <shrug>

Humpty Roberts let out a great sigh.
" <sigh>", he said.
"The nuances of English. I was discussing the usage of words and
not the concepts they represent."
| >> I repeat: that is not really "speed".
| > Let us elaborate this point.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| obtain the speed you _must_ use a single coordinate system; then you'll
| realize it traveled just under 60 miles per hour.

Do you think Roberts would know what happens if the train went east?
If he's not a Jabberwock, nothing is.

| Thank christ there is one genuine ENGINEER on the NG.
Henri Wilson - 27 Nov 2006 21:27 GMT
>| On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:49:50 GMT, "Sorcerer"
><Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_e>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>Do you think Roberts would know what happens if the train went east?
>If he's not a Jabberwock, nothing is.

Well he's obviously never seen a chainsaw....with a CENTRIFUGAL clutch..

>| Thank christ there is one genuine ENGINEER on the NG.

Which part of the Concord did HE design?

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 27 Nov 2006 22:54 GMT
| >| On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:49:50 GMT, "Sorcerer"
| ><Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_e>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
|
| Well he's obviously never seen a chainsaw....with a CENTRIFUGAL clutch..

Oh dear... the force on a clutch acts parallel to the shaft - obviously.
<shrug> :-)
O
 \
||  \
||    \< pivot
||     \
||      o <---- thust, centre seeking, centripetal.
||
||< clutch plate

| >| Thank christ there is one genuine ENGINEER on the NG.
|
| Which part of the Concord did HE design?

He designed a go/nogo DTL autotest of four analogue computers.
A dummy step voltage is integrated by the computer and a ramp starts.
A predefined output voltage is timed and a time window is opened and
then closed.
If the output voltage doesn't trigger a threshold detector within the
window, the computer fails and the plane doesn't take off, it failed
a pre-flight check.
The computer is pulled, another installed and life continues, the faulty
computer is returned for repair.
Nothing to do with frogs leaving shrapnel on a runway.
Nothing a mere physicist would understand.
Androcles
Henri Wilson - 28 Nov 2006 22:29 GMT
>| On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:33:21 GMT, "Sorcerer"
><Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_e>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>Oh dear... the force on a clutch acts parallel to the shaft - obviously.
><shrug> :-)

No it doesn't.
(use fixed pitch fonts)

        ->v  weight
        *  /   
    * OOOOOOO    *
      OOOOOOOOOO
    _\    OOOOOOOO  
 *    _\     OOOOOO*
   _\spring   OOOO
   o-----C-----o pivot

 *              *

    *        * drum

        *

As the inner member rotates around central axis 'C', the weight 'OOOO...' tries
to always continue in a tangential direction.

Pre-tension in the spring holds it away from the drum until the rotation speed
exceeds a certain value.

Beyond that speed, the weight pivots outwards until it comes up against the
drum. It then exerts an outward - ie, CENTRIFUGAL - force on the drum. Friction
between the weight and drum causes the drum to rotate.

Both the drum and the spring exert an inward - CENTRIPETAL - force on the
weight.

Both forces are NORMAL to the axis of rotation, C.

>O
>  \
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>computer is returned for repair.
>Nothing to do with frogs leaving shrapnel on a runway.

Don't blame the fogs. It fell off a yankee plane...

>Nothing a mere physicist would understand.

I'm surprised an engineer doesn't know how a common centrifugal clutch
operates....even a pommie one..

>Androcles

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 29 Nov 2006 00:11 GMT
| >| On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:33:21 GMT, "Sorcerer"
| ><Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_e>
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
|
| Both forces are NORMAL to the axis of rotation, C.

Brakes have drums,
http://faculty.delhi.edu/purdysd/62VettePhotos/Brake%20Drum.JPG

Clutches are magnetic and/or have thrust plates, silly old wabo.
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51027349/Magnetic_Clutch.jpg
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/pics/clutch1.jpg

hee hee :-)

You'd better watch it or we'll be doing the right-angle lever paradox
all over again.

| >O
| >  \
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
|
| Don't blame the fogs. It fell off a yankee plane...

Yeah, probably designed by a relativist. Frogs should have picked
up the garbage, though, it was their half of Concorde that had
wheels, and their pilot that wasn't looking where he was going.
'Course, we never should have got in bed with 'em, but the ozzies
had no engineers, no balls and a sh.t load of cricketers. At least
we taught them something right. We taught the Yanks golf, too.
'Course I blame the frogs, they can't even play cricket.
f.cking Commonwealth has gone to sh.t, the country will be
Islamic soon. Those bastards will be wanting to cut my head
off for not praying before long. Allah ak-bah humbug.

| >Nothing a mere physicist would understand.
|
| I'm surprised an engineer doesn't know how a common centrifugal clutch
| operates....even a pommie one..

Fuckin' drum... Must be an ozzie chainsaw.
| Thank christ there is one genuine engineer on the NG.
Henri Wilson - 29 Nov 2006 10:26 GMT
>| >| >Do you think Roberts would know what happens if the train went east?
>| >| >If he's not a Jabberwock, nothing is.
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
>hee hee :-)

You're nearly as bad as Roberts.
I thought all pommie engineers would know the what a common centrifugal clutch
looked like.
How wrong am I?

>| >a pre-flight check.
>| >The computer is pulled, another installed and life continues, the faulty
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>we taught them something right. We taught the Yanks golf, too.
>'Course I blame the frogs, they can't even play cricket.

Are you infering the poms know how to play cricket???....after last week's
debacle???? The only sensible one was Treschotic - or whatever his name is -
who feigned 'depression' to save himself all that humiliation...:)))))
Hahahahahaha!

>f.cking Commonwealth has gone to sh.t, the country will be
>Islamic soon. Those bastards will be wanting to cut my head
>off for not praying before long. Allah ak-bah humbug.

Same thing here. They've been taking over countries for centuries....they breed
like drosophila.

>| >Nothing a mere physicist would understand.
>|
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Fuckin' drum... Must be an ozzie chainsaw.
>| Thank christ there is one genuine engineer on the NG.

....you have obviously never looked inside a chainsaw.

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 29 Nov 2006 10:42 GMT
| >| >| >Do you think Roberts would know what happens if the train went east?
| >| >| >If he's not a Jabberwock, nothing is.
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
| looked like.
| How wrong am I?

This wrong,
 http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/thurston/1878/f29p115.gif
It's got a right-angle lever, though, and works by centripetal force.

| >| >a pre-flight check.
| >| >The computer is pulled, another installed and life continues, the faulty
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
|
| Are you infering the poms know how to play cricket???

Of course the pommes can't play cricket... and anyway they are called frogs.

....after last week's
| debacle???? The only sensible one was Treschotic - or whatever his name is -
| who feigned 'depression' to save himself all that humiliation...:)))))
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
|
| Thank christ there is one genuine engineer on the NG.
Henri Wilson - 29 Nov 2006 20:36 GMT
snip to save bandwidth>

>| >Clutches are magnetic and/or have thrust plates, silly old wabo.
>| > http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51027349/Magnetic_Clutch.jpg
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>  http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/thurston/1878/f29p115.gif
>It's got a right-angle lever, though, and works by centripetal force.

NNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!

The force exerted by mass B, on arm MN, at point M is OUTWARD. ...ie
CENTRIFUGAL.
It's vertical component is transmitted through MN to lift the point N.
The centripetal force in this governor is quite interesting because gravity is
used instead of a spring...

>| >Yeah, probably designed by a relativist. Frogs should have picked
>| >up the garbage, though, it was their half of Concorde that had
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Of course the pommes can't play cricket... and anyway they are called frogs.

Poms are called frogs?
What next?

I thought they were all called black, these days.

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 29 Nov 2006 22:33 GMT
| snip to save bandwidth>
|
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
|
| NNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Yes it does, I can see it. The fulcrum is marked "V" and there is
a rod marked "W" attached to it to open the steam valve.

| The force exerted by mass B, on arm MN, at point M is OUTWARD. ...ie
| CENTRIFUGAL.

f.cking word salad.  One force between TWO bodies.
Gander gravy is goose sauce. There is only one bathroom scale,
the Earth weighs 170 lb in my gravitational field.
You never did understand the Principle of Relativity, H. You are
as stupid as Roberts.

"Yes, tests of strong fields are few and far between, but there are
some:
the binary pulsars, and observations of accretion disks near black
holes

`I don't know what you mean by "observations",' Alice said.

Humpty Roberts smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell
you.
I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"' <shrug>

`But "observations" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice
objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Roberts said, in rather a scornful tone,
<shrug>,
`it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' <shrug>

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many
different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Roberts, `which is to be master -- that's
all.' <shrug>

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Roberts
began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're
the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs --  
however,
I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'
<shrug>

"And you never responded to how a 2-d surface in a flat 4-d spacetime can
have nonzero curvature, and why that shows that the curvature of such
2-d surfaces is useless in "describing" the geometry of the 4-d
manifold...." he droned on, shrugging at every comma.

"If you say that the curvature of 2-d surfaces is useless in
"describing" the geometry of the 4-d manifold....I am willing to agree
with you. But I just wanted you people to help me visualize the
intrinsic curvature of 3-d Schw. space. I was told that the Gaussian
curvature of certain 2-d surfaces will represent the intrinsic
curvature of 3-d Schw. space. When I wanted these 2-d surfaces to be
identified, Jan PB had given some interesting suggestions. But now you
say it is *useless*....." said Alice.

"_SOME_ 2-d surfaces can be useful in describing the geometry of 4-d
spacetime, in particular those spanned by a 2-d vector space of
geodesics. But you were discussing 2-d surfaces defined by coordinates,
and _those_ are useless because coordinates are completely arbitrary,
and introducing that arbitrariness destroys their usefulness" shrugged Humpty
Roberts.

"That means the notion of intrinsic curvature of space is either too
complex that it cannot be visualized or it is just invalid." exclaimed
Alice.

"No. But in many cases using a ball of dust particles is a better
visualization tool than 2-d surfaces.", said Humpty Roberts, teetering
on his wall and shrugging.

"Mathematically it is good enough to state that in Riemannian geometry
the Riemann tensor is non-zero. Where is the necessity of associating
it with a cooked up fictitious term 'curvature of space'? " asked Alice,
thinking of the cooked up egg she had for breakfast.

"Mathematicians and physicists are human. We share the common desire to
communicate with each other easily, accurately, and concisely -- that's
why technical vocabularies were invented." shrugged Humpty Roberts
scornfully and pretending he is human by saying "we".

Alice pondered this for moment, then asked "Was it required to fool and
mislead the 'layman'?"

"Your problem, not mine", said Humpty Roberts, then realizing  his
Freudian slip, he was pretending to be human, added  "(ours).
But this technical vocabulary is not secret or unfathomable, it just
takes _STUDY_. <shrug>"

Alice then went back to say "The term *curvature* basically applies to
the bending of curves and 2-d surfaces."

Ho ho, thought Humpty Roberts, "Not in differential geometry or GR.
The term "curvature" was borrowed by analogy with 2-d surfaces, and
has come to mean the Riemann curvature tensor. That is, a manifold of
_any_ dimension with nonzero Riemann tensor is said to be curved."
and he shrugged like this :- "<shrug>"

Alice asked  "Why *said* to be curved when it is actually not curved?"

Humpty Roberts let out a great sigh.
" <sigh>", he said.
"The nuances of English. I was discussing the usage of words and
not the concepts they represent."
                     -- Tom Humpty Roberts tjroberts@lucent.com
 news:ZDmYf.51582$2O6.5573@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com
                                       The end.
With thanks to Lewis Carroll.

| It's vertical component is transmitted through MN to lift the point N.
| The centripetal force in this governor is quite interesting because gravity is
| used instead of a spring...

Oh, does the right-angle lever have more mass than B and B'?
I think its the centri-f.ck-it-all force of steam pressure myself.
the faster the balls turn, the less steam is released.

| >| >Yeah, probably designed by a relativist. Frogs should have picked
| >| >up the garbage, though, it was their half of Concorde that had
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
|
| Poms are called frogs?

Yeah... pomme is a froggish word, it means "apple".  
Eiffel, the guy that built an iron tower in Paris,  gave the yanks the
statue of liberty which is why New York is called the big apple.  
Ask Dork Van de pisspot, he's close to froggish.

 http://www.tour-eiffel.fr/

Faraday supplied the brains to light it up.

We only got in bed with the frogs over Concorde 'cause we had
to save their arse when Hitler pissed on 'em and made us broke.
Now we can't even hold on to colonialists like you.  I was so disgusted
I f.cked off to America to make a bob or two. At least the yanks had
the balls to declare independence. The fuckin' commie bastards
are still demanding I buy a TV licence here. You know now why
I came back, too.

| What next?
|
| I thought they were all called black, these days.

Black, white, centripetal, centrifugal... <shrug>

| HW.
| www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
|
| Thank christ there is one genuine ENGINEER on the NG,
physicists are full of word salad.
Henri Wilson - 30 Nov 2006 08:48 GMT
>| snip to save bandwidth>
>|
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
>                                        The end.
>With thanks to Lewis Carroll.

...actually that's not bad.... for you.
Occasionally, you give the impression you are actually sober OCCASIONALLY.

>| It's vertical component is transmitted through MN to lift the point N.
>| The centripetal force in this governor is quite interesting because gravity is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I think its the centri-f.ck-it-all force of steam pressure myself.
>the faster the balls turn, the less steam is released.

That's obvious. ..otherwise the f.cking thing would take off in ever increasing
circles and eventually blow up....

No.Obviously, when the lever moves up, it reduces the steam inlet aperture.

>| >Of course the pommes can't play cricket... and anyway they are called frogs.
>|
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>are still demanding I buy a TV licence here. You know now why
> I came back, too.

Too bloody cold for me.

>| What next?
>|
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>| Thank christ there is one genuine ENGINEER on the NG,
>physicists are full of word salad.

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 30 Nov 2006 13:23 GMT
| >| snip to save bandwidth>
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
| ...actually that's not bad.... for you.
| Occasionally, you give the impression you are actually sober OCCASIONALLY.

It only seems that way to you because you are permanently drunk.
That conversation actually took place, all I did was substitute Alice.

| >| It's vertical component is transmitted through MN to lift the point N.
| >| The centripetal force in this governor is quite interesting because gravity is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
| No.Obviously, when the lever moves up, it reduces the steam inlet aperture.

Gravity has nothing to do with it. It'll still work upside down, even in
Oz which is upside down to begin with. The steam is the spring.
Increasing steam PRESSURE makes the governor turn faster and that
reduces the steam FLOW to the piston, which reduces the speed.
Watts = pressure * flow. This is an electromagnetic governor:
 http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/oscillator.JPG
it keeps the speed constant.
Round and round goes the bloody great wheel,
In and out goes the prick of steel.

What I want to know is why you don't fall off, seeing as you are
upside down.

| >| >Of course the pommes can't play cricket... and anyway they are called frogs.
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
|
| Too bloody cold for me.

Actually it's been pretty balmy, last summer was the hottest on record.
Roll on global warming.

| >| What next?
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
|
| Thank christ there is ONLY one genuine physicist on the NG.
Henri Wilson - 30 Nov 2006 21:23 GMT
>| >With thanks to Lewis Carroll.
>|
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Gravity has nothing to do with it. It'll still work upside down, even in
>Oz which is upside down to begin with.

It will NOT work upside down, you dopey old bastard.
.
>The steam is the spring.

Bullshit, you dopey old bastard.
Gravity is the 'spring'. Centrifugal force is the operating factor.

>Increasing steam PRESSURE makes the governor turn faster and that
>reduces the steam FLOW to the piston, which reduces the speed.

When the thing spins faster, the lever moves up and closes the valve that lets
the steam into the engine. It is probably a butterfly valve so there is no net
upward or downward force on the lever DUE TO THE STEAM.

>Watts = pressure * flow. This is an electromagnetic governor:
>  http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/oscillator.JPG
>it keeps the speed constant.

That's boody easy to do.

>Round and round goes the bloody great wheel,
>In and out goes the prick of steel.
>
>What I want to know is why you don't fall off, seeing as you are
>upside down.

I'm wearing magnetic boots.

>| >  http://www.tour-eiffel.fr/
>| >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Actually it's been pretty balmy, last summer was the hottest on record.
>Roll on global warming.

It has f.cked this country.

Two weeks ago, Sydney had the coldest November night on record. Six days later,
the max temperature was 38C.

No wheat crops this year, very little snow, rivers don't flow any more, dead
sheep everywhere, no water for several cities...the whole country might have to
close down soon, apart from a few quarries.

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 01 Dec 2006 01:52 GMT
| >| >With thanks to Lewis Carroll.
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
|
| It will NOT work upside down, you dopey old bastard.

Leave the engineering to an engineer, fuckwit.
Your fuckin' chainsaw would be useless if gravity dependent.

| .
| >The steam is the spring.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
| When the thing spins faster, the lever moves up and closes the valve that lets
| the steam into the engine.

Yeah, so?

| It is probably

You can stop right there, I've heard enough of your  "probably" to last
a lifetime.  

| a butterfly valve

http://advparametric.com/advparametric/images/valve_anim_sm.gif

"This Animation shows the smallest of an automated valve product line that shuts off steam to a steam turbine powered generator. This valve can withstand up to 3500 psi and temperatures of 1100° F! It also is required to completely shut off the steam in .012 seconds. "

"butterfly"! f.cking ranting idiot!

ROFLMAO!

so there is no net
| upward or downward force on the lever DUE TO THE STEAM.
|
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
| sheep everywhere, no water for several cities...the whole country might have to
| close down soon, apart from a few quarries.

It has always been like that. Don't you have trees that the seeds only
open if there is a forest fire?
Some seeds, however, recall the mythical Phoenix, a bird that would rise from a fire's ashes to begin life anew. To thrive, these seeds actually need to get burned: intense heat is required to explode their seed cones or crack their hard kernels, so that water can leak in and begin the growth process. Such "fire-germinated" species are common everywhere forest fires occur on a regular basis. In an ironic turn of events, the recent campaign to stamp out forest fires has put some of these species in jeopardy. Indeed, in some parks, rangers now intentionally set forest fires just to make sure certain plants grow.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/plants/adaptable.html



| HW.
| www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
|
| Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Henri Wilson - 01 Dec 2006 10:32 GMT
>| >| That's obvious. ..otherwise the f.cking thing would take off in ever increasing
>| >| circles and eventually blow up....
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Leave the engineering to an engineer, fuckwit.
>Your fuckin' chainsaw would be useless if gravity dependent.

You've never seen a chainsaw. How would you know?

>| When the thing spins faster, the lever moves up and closes the valve that lets
>| the steam into the engine.
>
>Yeah, so?

So that's how the bloody thing works....you stupd old pommie bastard..

>| It is probably
>
>You can stop right there, I've heard enough of your  "probably" to last
>a lifetime.  

'certainly', then .

> http://advparametric.com/advparametric/images/valve_anim_sm.gif
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>ROFLMAO!

So pommie engineers don't know what a 'butterfly valve' is.

No wonder the Concord crashed...

You wouldn't have even won the war if we hadn't helped.

>| It has f.cked this country.
>|
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>It has always been like that. Don't you have trees that the seeds only
>open if there is a forest fire?

That's bullshit put out by the pyromaniacs who run the forest industry. They
just love lighting fires. Any excuse will do.
It's as big a myth as Einstein's relativity.

> Some seeds, however, recall the mythical Phoenix, a bird that would rise from a fire's ashes to begin life anew. To thrive, these seeds actually need to get burned: intense heat is required to explode their seed cones or crack their hard kernels, so that water can leak in and begin the growth process. Such "fire-germinated" species are common everywhere forest fires occur on a regular basis. In an ironic turn of events, the recent campaign to stamp out forest fires has put some of these species in jeopardy. Indeed, in some parks, rangers now intentionally set forest fires just to make sure certain plants grow.
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/plants/adaptable.html

It's all bullshit. ...put out by the pyromaniacs who run everything and have
the politicians fooled. The insurance companies back them..
If it were true, the forests would consist of only the lousey shrubs they
reckon are fire resistent.

The abos wiped out Australia's real forests 50000 years ago.

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 01 Dec 2006 10:57 GMT
| >| >| That's obvious. ..otherwise the f.cking thing would take off in ever increasing
| >| >| circles and eventually blow up....
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| You've never seen a chainsaw. How would you know?
ROFL!
I've cut down trees, wabo. I built a rustic bridge over a fishpond.


| >| When the thing spins faster, the lever moves up and closes the valve that lets
| >| the steam into the engine.
| >
| >Yeah, so?
|
| So that's how the bloody thing works....you stupd old pommie bastard..

So you have a gravity dependent chainsaw. Ok... when are the men in
white coats coming for you?

| >| It is probably
| >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
|
| So pommie engineers don't know what a 'butterfly valve' is.

So stupid ozzie physicists would use a butterfly for high pressure steam.
No wonder we Brits had to build their railways. It's not a f.cking 
carburettor, you stupid old wabo.

| No wonder the Concord crashed...
|
| You wouldn't have even won the war if we hadn't helped.

You ozzies can't do ANYTHING except farm sheep, and New Zealanders
do that better than you lot.  

| >| It has f.cked this country.
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
|
| The abos wiped out Australia's real forests 50000 years ago.

Hmm... so abos had insurance companies 50,000 years ago?
I didn't know that, I thought Lloyds of London underwrote every
insurance company in the civilised world. It sure hurt us when
Challenger blew up cos the yanks screwed up with an O-ring. Big payout.
You lot will never make anything using a butterfly valve on a steam line.
Fuckin' steam would blow by that in an instant.
Go back to writing papers and leave the real work to us engineers.
Henri Wilson - 01 Dec 2006 19:06 GMT
>| >Leave the engineering to an engineer, fuckwit.
>| >Your fuckin' chainsaw would be useless if gravity dependent.
>|
>| You've never seen a chainsaw. How would you know?
>ROFL!
>I've cut down trees, wabo. I built a rustic bridge over a fishpond.

...so the fish could get from one side to the other without getting wet?

>| >| When the thing spins faster, the lever moves up and closes the valve that lets
>| >| the steam into the engine.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>So you have a gravity dependent chainsaw. Ok... when are the men in
>white coats coming for you?

I'm sure you would have seen plenty of them.

eam turbine powered generator. This valve can withstand up to 3500 psi and
temperatures of 1100° F! It also is required to completely shut off the steam
in .012 seconds. "

>| >"butterfly"! f.cking ranting idiot!
>| >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>No wonder we Brits had to build their railways. It's not a f.cking 
>carburettor, you stupid old wabo.

All right. Use a gate valve then...anything that operates without much reaction
from the steam...that was my point..

>| It's all bullshit. ...put out by the pyromaniacs who run everything and have
>| the politicians fooled. The insurance companies back them..
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You lot will never make anything using a butterfly valve on a steam line.
>Fuckin' steam would blow by that in an instant.

Who said it was on a high pressure steam line?

>Go back to writing papers and leave the real work to us engineers.

..go and build a few more bridges...

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 01 Dec 2006 20:56 GMT
| >| >Leave the engineering to an engineer, fuckwit.
| >| >Your fuckin' chainsaw would be useless if gravity dependent.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
|
| ...so the fish could get from one side to the other without getting wet?

Of course, they are ozzie fish with magnetic boots.

| >| >| When the thing spins faster, the lever moves up and closes the valve that lets
| >| >| the steam into the engine.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
|
| I'm sure you would have seen plenty of them.

Yeah, they are out rounding up physicists all the time. I told 'em where
you live, they'll get to it. I'm surprised  they haven't got to you yet,
I suppose there are worse cases to deal with first, like Roberts and
Niemenim, the PhD from the Outback (Queensland).
At least the Outback of England makes good whisky.

| eam turbine powered generator. This valve can withstand up to 3500 psi and
| temperatures of 1100° F! It also is required to completely shut off the steam
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
| All right. Use a gate valve then...anything that operates without much reaction
| from the steam...that was my point..

Any idea how a two stroke engine works?
When the piston goes away from the combustion chamber it slides past
holes in the cylinder wall and lets the gas out. Before that happens
the gas pushes the piston. In a steam engine that presses on the governor.
Too simple for a wabo.

| >| It's all bullshit. ...put out by the pyromaniacs who run everything and have
| >| the politicians fooled. The insurance companies back them..
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
|
| Who said it was on a high pressure steam line?

What the f.ck do you think boilers are for?
Oddly enough, in the USA all pressure vessels in industry are considered
"boilers" for legal puposes. You can't run an air-compressor unless it
passes boiler tests, and once a year an inspector comes around  and
ties a tag on it.

| >Go back to writing papers and leave the real work to us engineers.
|
| ..go and build a few more bridges...

I did. I even helped built Concorde but the pommel frogs f.cked it up,
so I went the USA. This a flying bridge of earlier design (before Sydney
harbour bridge).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tees/webcams/transporter.shtml
The gondola is suspended on cables.

Lets face it, we taught you golf, taught you cricket, built bridges
for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.
Henri Wilson - 02 Dec 2006 09:24 GMT
>| >| So that's how the bloody thing works....you stupd old pommie bastard..
>| >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Niemenim, the PhD from the Outback (Queensland).
>At least the Outback of England makes good whisky.

...bad for one's liver....

>| eam turbine powered generator. This valve can withstand up to 3500 psi and
>| temperatures of 1100° F! It also is required to completely shut off the steam
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Any idea how a two stroke engine works?

I've fixed dozens of them..

>When the piston goes away from the combustion chamber it slides past
>holes in the cylinder wall and lets the gas out. Before that happens
>the gas pushes the piston. In a steam engine that presses on the governor.

Not the type of governor you refered me to. That operates on speed. If the
speed is too high, it closes the steam inlet valve.

>Too simple for a wabo.

Too hard for a pom

You boys did remarkably well today. 6/551... too slow though..

>| >| the politicians fooled. The insurance companies back them..
>| >| If it were true, the forests would consist of only the lousey shrubs they
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>passes boiler tests, and once a year an inspector comes around  and
>ties a tag on it.

It's roughly the same here.

>| >Go back to writing papers and leave the real work to us engineers.
>|
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/tees/webcams/transporter.shtml
>The gondola is suspended on cables.

You didn't design that.

>Lets face it, we taught you golf, taught you cricket, built bridges
>for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.

Now we beat you at everything...

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 02 Dec 2006 13:23 GMT
| >| >| So that's how the bloody thing works....you stupd old pommie bastard..
| >| >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| ...bad for one's liver....

Nah, that's what livers are for. Use it or lose it.

| >| eam turbine powered generator. This valve can withstand up to 3500 psi and
| >| temperatures of 1100° F! It also is required to completely shut off the steam
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
| Not the type of governor you refered me to. That operates on speed. If the
| speed is too high, it closes the steam inlet valve.

What the f.ck!  You said it operated on gravity!
Gate valve, butterfly valve... f.cking old lunatic, couldn't
design a piss up in a brothel. Leave the engineering to an
engineer, Wilson.
The driver uses a gate valve to start and stop, the governor
uses a piston valve to regulate.
Daft old wabo doesn't know what a piston valve is.

| >Too simple for a wabo.
|
| Too hard for a pom
|
| You boys did remarkably well today. 6/551... too slow though..

Yeah... I don't really follow the game. I haven't played since
my schooldays when it was suggested I played silly mid off
and I asked why it was called "silly". Then I found out and
decided it wasn't for me. Those balls are f.cking hard.

| >| >| the politicians fooled. The insurance companies back them..
| >| >| If it were true, the forests would consist of only the lousey shrubs they
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
|
| You didn't design that.

I'd hope not, I'm not quite that old. I've designed and built a few wheatstone
bridges though.
http://www.play-hookey.com/dc_theory/images/wheatstone_bridge.gif

By making Rx variable you have a governor.  Very useful.
A wabo wouldn't understand it, though, he'd use a gate valve.


| >Lets face it, we taught you golf, taught you cricket, built bridges
| >for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.
|
| Now we beat you at everything...

You couldn't beat an egg, Wilson. Look at the hash you made of
Sagnac (and a gate valve for a governor).
Henri Wilson - 02 Dec 2006 20:44 GMT
>| >Any idea how a two stroke engine works?
>|
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>What the f.ck!  You said it operated on gravity!

The governor DOES use gravity instead of a spring. Anyone can see that.

>Gate valve, butterfly valve... f.cking old lunatic, couldn't
>design a piss up in a brothel. Leave the engineering to an
>engineer, Wilson.

I didn't know brothels were for pissups.

>The driver uses a gate valve to start and stop, the governor
>uses a piston valve to regulate.
>Daft old wabo doesn't know what a piston valve is.

I don't care what kind of valve it uses.
the main point is that there is very litle restriction of the governor's
movement BY the valve.
IN OTHER WORDS,  THERE IS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK WITH HIGH AMPLIICATION.
EVEN YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE.

>| >Too simple for a wabo.
>|
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>and I asked why it was called "silly". Then I found out and
>decided it wasn't for me. Those balls are f.cking hard.

I wonder why they picked YOU for silly mid off..

>| You didn't design that.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>By making Rx variable you have a governor.  Very useful.
>A wabo wouldn't understand it, though, he'd use a gate valve.

Just about any f.cking valve will do the job.

>| >Lets face it, we taught you golf, taught you cricket, built bridges
>| >for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>You couldn't beat an egg, Wilson. Look at the hash you made of
>Sagnac (and a gate valve for a governor).

f.cking bullshit.

I reckon the closest you ever became to being an engineer was when you
shovelled coal in that old steam engine....

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 02 Dec 2006 22:32 GMT
| >| >Any idea how a two stroke engine works?
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| The governor DOES use gravity instead of a spring. Anyone can see that.

Bullshit, it uses steam pressure. Anyone except you can see that.

| >Gate valve, butterfly valve... f.cking old lunatic, couldn't
| >design a piss up in a brothel. Leave the engineering to an
| >engineer, Wilson.
|
| I didn't know brothels were for pissups.

EGADS!   You REALLY couldn't design a piss up in a brothel!
I know team of engineers who did it rather well in Bangkok.
http://www.link-miles.co.uk/images/picright.jpg
http://www.flying-school.com/images/world/Thai.jpg
Look at the symbols on the plane and the simulator.
I missed that party, I was working on the Royal Navy Sea Harrier.
You must think we engineers don't love fun.  Don't you know
when we build a sim we go out and install it?


| >The driver uses a gate valve to start and stop, the governor
| >uses a piston valve to regulate.
| >Daft old wabo doesn't know what a piston valve is.
|
| I don't care what kind of valve it uses.

Sour grapes. Hahaha!

| the main point is that there is very litle restriction of the governor's
| movement BY the valve.
| IN OTHER WORDS,  THERE IS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK WITH HIGH AMPLIICATION.
| EVEN YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE.

Of course I do, the governor has a right-angle lever marked V and can easily
overcome the "spring" of steam pressure.
http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/thurston/1878/f29p115.gif

See, the horizontal arm of the lever is longer than the vertical,  that's the
amplification.  The piston valve pushes the balls B down, gravity assisted
or the lever vertical arm would be shorter.
Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo. We KNOW what we are doing.
We even know how to organise a piss up in a brothel, a physicist doesn't
know what that is.

An attorney got home late one evening, after a very taxing day trying to get a stay of execution for a client, Wilbur Wright, who was due to be hanged for murder at midnight. His last-minute plea for clemency to the governor had failed and he was feeling worn out and
depressed.

As soon as he got through the door at home, his wife started on  him about, "What time of night do you call this? Where have you been?" And on  and on.

Too shattered to play his usual role in this familiar ritual, he went and poured  himself a shot of whiskey and headed off for a long  hot soak in the bathtub  pursued by the predictable sarcastic remarks.

While he was in the bath, the phone rang. The  wife answered and was told that her husband's client had been granted his stay of  execution after all.

Finally realizing what a day he must have had, she decided to go upstairs to give him the good news. As she opened the bathroom door, she was greeted by the sight of her husband's rear end as he  was bent over naked drying his legs and feet.

"They're not hanging Wright tonight," she said.

He whirled around and screamed, "FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WOMAN,  DON'T  YOU EVER STOP?"


| >| >Too simple for a wabo.
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
| I wonder why they picked YOU for silly mid off..

They didn't, I refused.  I never made it to the school team.
I wouldn't play wicket keeper or short stop either. Long stop
was ok, and batting I could defend myself in a suit of armour
or get the f.ck out of the way.  I didn't mind a bit of running
in the out field, that was safe and looked good. When a fuckin'
missile is coming at ya, get out of the way until you can compute
its trajectory and intercept.





| >| You didn't design that.
| >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Just about any f.cking valve will do the job.

f.cking sloppy. You sure your name isn't Heath Robinson?
http://www.pr.gov.br/batebyte/edicoes/2003/bb137/imagens/torto2.gif
http://www.thecomputervillage.com/pict003.jpg

I'm an ENGINEER, Wilson, not a physicist.  The Wright brothers
built a string bag kite, we built Concorde. Why do you think
they wanted to hang Wilbur for attempted murder and the old
nag said "They are not hanging Wright tonight?
A wabo doesn't understand real engineering.

| >| >Lets face it, we taught you golf, taught you cricket, built bridges
| >| >for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
|
| Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Fuckin old xtian.
Henri Wilson - 03 Dec 2006 08:41 GMT
>| >| >Any idea how a two stroke engine works?
>| >|
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Bullshit, it uses steam pressure. Anyone except you can see that.

It GOVERNS the steam pressure.

>| >Gate valve, butterfly valve... f.cking old lunatic, couldn't
>| >design a piss up in a brothel. Leave the engineering to an
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>amplification.  The piston valve pushes the balls B down, gravity assisted
>or the lever vertical arm would be shorter.

What the f.cking hell are you raving about.

The faster it spins, the higher go the balls....AS THE CETRIFUGAL FORCE
BALANCES GRAVITY.
Note: the lift due to centrigfugal force falls with the cosine of the angle.
The downward gravity pull increases with the sine....so the valve has to shut
down completely before the balls move above about 45 degrees.

You wont understand that, though.

> Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo. We KNOW what we are doing.
>We even know how to organise a piss up in a brothel, a physicist doesn't
>know what that is.

silly old bugger....

>An attorney got home late one evening, after a very taxing day trying to get a stay of execution for a client, Wilbur Wright, who was due to be hanged for murder at midnight. His last-minute plea for clemency to the governor had failed and he was feeling worn out and
>depressed.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>He whirled around and screamed, "FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WOMAN,  DON'T  YOU EVER STOP?"

You know, I haven't heard that joke for fifty years. The blokes name was
'Plumb' then.

(they're not hanging Plumb....)

>| >Yeah... I don't really follow the game. I haven't played since
>| >my schooldays when it was suggested I played silly mid off
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>nag said "They are not hanging Wright tonight?
>A wabo doesn't understand real engineering.

Keep shovelling that coal into the boiler....

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 03 Dec 2006 12:39 GMT
| >| >| >Any idea how a two stroke engine works?
| >| >|
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
|
| It GOVERNS the steam pressure.

Of  course does, it can't govern gravity.

| >| >Gate valve, butterfly valve... f.cking old lunatic, couldn't
| >| >design a piss up in a brothel. Leave the engineering to an
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
| The faster it spins, the higher go the balls....AS THE CETRIFUGAL FORCE
| BALANCES GRAVITY.

What the f.cking hell are you raving about?

The faster it spins, the further out go the balls....AS THE SPIN FORCE
BALANCES STEAM PRESSURE.

Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo, you don't even know arithmetic.

| Note: the lift

What f.cking lift?

The balls get further out, have a greater radius!
It's a fuckin' steam engine, not a helicopter.

due to centrigfugal force falls with the cosine of the angle.
| The downward gravity pull increases with the sine....so the valve has to shut
| down completely before the balls move above about 45 degrees.
|
| You wont understand that, though.

f.cking right I don't.
http://www.railway-technical.com/governor.gif

Does that say "Lift"?
No, it says "horizontal movement of weights", "vertical movement of collar".
Nowhere does it say "gravity". It also says "diesel engine", but a diesel engine
with horizontal pistons is rare. It was drawn by a physicist.

"Lift" indeed. You'll want a countdown to drop-off at Woomera next.
Magnetic boot release -- 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 -we have DROP off.  
f.cking ozzies live upside down and talk about "up" and "down" like
they knew what it meant.  Beats me how anyone can confuse gravity
with steam pressure. That right-angle lever confused you.

| > Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo. We KNOW what we are doing.
| >We even know how to organise a piss up in a brothel, a physicist doesn't
| >know what that is.
|
| silly old bugger....

f.cking right you are, stupid old wabos rely on gravity to fall up.

| >An attorney got home late one evening, after a very taxing day trying to get a stay of execution for a client, Wilbur Wright, who was due to be hanged for murder at midnight. His last-minute plea for clemency to the governor had failed and he was feeling worn out and
| >depressed.
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
|
| Keep shovelling that coal into the boiler....

f.cking stupid physicist, WATER goes in the boiler, coal goes
in the firebox.
Keep writing papers, I'll use 'em to start the fire.
Henri Wilson - 03 Dec 2006 20:51 GMT
Will you fix your bloody browser.

This is how it's appearing. An '=20' at the end of each line.

| >| >for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.
| >|=20
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|=20
|=20"""""
easily
| >overcome the "spring" of steam pressure.=20
| > http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/thurston/1878/f29p115.gif
| >
| >See, the horizontal arm of the lever is longer than the vertical,  =
that's the=20
| >amplification.  The piston valve pushes the balls B down, gravity =
assisted
| >or the lever vertical arm would be shorter.=20
|=20
| What the f.cking hell are you raving about.
|=20
| The faster it spins, the higher go the balls....AS THE CETRIFUGAL =
FORCE
| BALANCES GRAVITY.
""""""

>| >Of course I do, the governor has a right-angle lever marked V and can easily
>| >overcome the "spring" of steam pressure.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>The faster it spins, the further out go the balls....AS THE SPIN FORCE
>BALANCES STEAM PRESSURE.

The effect of the steam pressure is neglible.

The governor senses ROTATION SPEED not pressure. It regulates the pressure
through the amplified feedback loop...ie., the lever.

>Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo, you don't even know arithmetic.

You haven't a clue.. get of the Glenlivet...and keep shovelling the coal.
Tip: put less in the firebox when the governor's balls rise.

>| Note: the lift
>
>What f.cking lift?
>
>The balls get further out, have a greater radius!
>It's a fuckin' steam engine, not a helicopter.

They LIFT the bloody lever, herr engineer....

> due to centrigfugal force falls with the cosine of the angle.
>| The downward gravity pull increases with the sine....so the valve has to shut
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>f.cking right I don't.
> http://www.railway-technical.com/governor.gif

I know how the bloody thing works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can't you see it is rotation sensitive even if it isn't connected to the fuel
valve.

>Does that say "Lift"?

It LIFTS the fuel rack lever.
This one doesn't have any connection to the steam. It cuts down the fuel input
is the speed goes too high.
The problem with this type of governor is to stop it oscillating. It has to be
dampened somehow.

>No, it says "horizontal movement of weights", "vertical movement of collar".
>Nowhere does it say "gravity". It also says "diesel engine", but a diesel engine
>with horizontal pistons is rare. It was drawn by a physicist.

It should be obvious to any engineer where gravity comes in.
...or is this the pommie version?

www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/pommiegovernor.jpg

>"Lift" indeed. You'll want a countdown to drop-off at Woomera next.
>Magnetic boot release -- 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 -we have DROP off.  
>f.cking ozzies live upside down and talk about "up" and "down" like
>they knew what it meant.  Beats me how anyone can confuse gravity
>with steam pressure. That right-angle lever confused you.

It isn't even linked to the steam. It goes to the fuel inlet system.
I have a similar system on my lawnmower. It regulates speed by adjusting the
carby BUTTERFLY valve.

>| > Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo. We KNOW what we are doing.
>| >We even know how to organise a piss up in a brothel, a physicist doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>f.cking right you are, stupid old wabos rely on gravity to fall up.

..geez..it's like trying to teach a monkey how to read..

>| >I'm an ENGINEER, Wilson, not a physicist.  The Wright brothers
>| >built a string bag kite, we built Concorde. Why do you think
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>in the firebox.
>Keep writing papers, I'll use 'em to start the fire.

Remember, only half a shovel of coal when the governor's balls rise..

HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Sorcerer - 03 Dec 2006 22:08 GMT
| Will you fix your bloody browser.
|
| This is how it's appearing. An '=20' at the end of each line.

20 Hex is a space. I haven't changed a thing, it has to be a corruption
in reception at your end, I just checked it on Google groups and its fine.


|| >| >for you, it's time you did something for us besides lamb chops.
|| >|=20
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
|
| The effect of the steam pressure is neglible.

HAHAHA!
Ranting old fool, if the effect was negligible it wouldn't be a steam engine.
 http://www.accidents-inspections.com/Investigations/Accidentrecord.shtml

I can tell you were never responsible for health and safety at work.
I'd be f.cked if I ever employed you.  

| The governor senses ROTATION SPEED not pressure. It regulates the pressure
| through the amplified feedback loop...ie., the lever.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
| You haven't a clue.. get of the Glenlivet...and keep shovelling the coal.
| Tip: put less in the firebox when the governor's balls rise.

Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo, you don't even know arithmetic.

| >| Note: the lift
| >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
|
| I know how the bloody thing works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No you don't, you think it has negligible pressure. Probably
drive on flat tyres, too, that's negligible pressure - about 2 bar.
You are totally clueless, Wilson.
Negligible pressure, butterfly valve, lift... what else?

| Can't you see it is rotation sensitive even if it isn't connected to the fuel
| valve.
|
| >Does that say "Lift"?
|
| It LIFTS the fuel rack lever.

What, opens the firebox door to let in more coal?
Steam isn't fuel, you crazy old goat.

| This one doesn't have any connection to the steam. It cuts down the fuel input
| is the speed goes too high.

You could use a butterfly valve for that.

| The problem with this type of governor is to stop it oscillating. It has to be
| dampened somehow.

Positive feedback causes oscillation:
 http://tinyurl.com/yclezm

| >No, it says "horizontal movement of weights", "vertical movement of collar".
| >Nowhere does it say "gravity". It also says "diesel engine", but a diesel engine
| >with horizontal pistons is rare. It was drawn by a physicist.
|
| It should be obvious to any engineer where gravity comes in.
| ...or is this the pommie version?

I told you, it was gravity assist. That damps oscillation.

| www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/pommiegovernor.jpg

That works, steam pressure from a piston valve keeps the collar
pulled to the right and opens the valve. Spinning pulls the
collar to the left and closes the valve.
Reduce speed, valve opens, increase speed, valve closes.
(All done at a negligible 1100 psi)

| >"Lift" indeed. You'll want a countdown to drop-off at Woomera next.
| >Magnetic boot release -- 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 -we have DROP off.  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| I have a similar system on my lawnmower. It regulates speed by adjusting the
| carby BUTTERFLY valve.

We were discussing steam engines, not f.cking lawnmowers, don't change
the subject because you f.cked up. The clutch on a chainsaw has a spring,
the governor on a steam engine has steam for a spring, not f.cking gravity.
Now we've come full circle, so that's end of discussion.

| >| > Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo. We KNOW what we are doing.
| >| >We even know how to organise a piss up in a brothel, a physicist doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
|
| ..geez..it's like trying to teach a monkey how to read..

I don't need to say "probably is has a butterfly valve", cos I KNOW
it doesn't and I told you up front to stick your "probably" up your arse.
You've confirmed you are an incompetent guessing idiot. You'd kill
someone if they let you loose.
Leave the engineering to an engineer, wabo. We KNOW what we are doing.
End of discussion, pick another topic.

| >| >I'm an ENGINEER, Wilson, not a physicist.  The Wright brothers
| >| >built a string bag kite, we built Concorde. Why do you think
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
|
| Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.
Henri Wilson - 04 Dec 2006 21:03 GMT
>| Will you fix your bloody browser.
>|
>| This is how it's appearing. An '=20' at the end of each line.
>
>20 Hex is a space. I haven't changed a thing, it has to be a corruption
>in reception at your end, I just checked it on Google groups and its fine.

THis how it came back:
"""
|=20
|=20
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
||=3D20
|| I reckon the closest you ever became to being an engineer was when =
you
|| shovelled coal in that old steam engine....
||=3D20
||=3D20
||=3D20"""""
| easily
****************************

Yours are the only messages that have the problem.
Check your settings.



>|| What the f.cking hell are you raving about.
>||=20
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>Ranting old fool, if the effect was negligible it wouldn't be a steam engine.
>  http://www.accidents-inspections.com/Investigations/Accidentrecord.shtml

It's f.cking negligible on the governor, you silly old goat...
The governor isn't even connected to the steam in any way. It varies the fuel
input.

>I can tell you were never responsible for health and safety at work.
>I'd be f.cked if I ever employed you.

..and I'd deserve f.cking if I was ever employed by a silly old goat like you..

>| The governor senses ROTATION SPEED not pressure. It regulates the pressure
>| through the amplified feedback loop...ie., the lever.
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
>You could use a butterfly valve for that.

Like in my lawnmower carby....

>| The problem with this type of governor is to stop it oscillating. It has to be
>| dampened somehow.
>
>Positive feedback causes oscillation:
>  http://tinyurl.com/yclezm

Oscillation can occur in negative feedback loops if there is a delay and not
enough damping. It used to be called 'hunting'.
.
>| >No, it says "horizontal movement of weights", "vertical movement of collar".
>| >Nowhere does it say "gravity". It also says "diesel engine", but a diesel engine
[quoted tex